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DGA35
Hoping that one day we get official stereo releases of The Last Time, 19th Nervous Breakdown and As Tears Go By!

I wouldn't hold your breath.

It's also not clear if As Tears Go By was recorded multitrack or not. It's certainly never been in stereo on bootleg.

I see ATGB was recorded in late 65 at IBC with Glyn Johns. I would assume it would have been recorded in stereo.

Off topic but I always wondered why the Chess recordings sound so crisp, especially the drums/cymbals versus songs they recorded at RCA.

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DGA35
I see ATGB was recorded in late 65 at IBC with Glyn Johns. I would assume it would have been recorded in stereo.

Off topic but I always wondered why the Chess recordings sound so crisp, especially the drums/cymbals versus songs they recorded at RCA.

One would think As Tears Go By could be mixed to stereo, but just about all of the other "hits" have been, and yet there's still no stereo mix.

That's just how Chess sounded - good. And that's just how RCA sounded, at least when it came to a lot of pop/rock stuff. Bad. Think of stuff like Surrealistic Pillow.

I look at a lot of Sam Cooke's hits that sound great that were recorded at RCA in Hollywood. Dave Hassinger was also the engineer for those sessions. I always wondered if he suggested the Stones record Good Times as a tribute to Sam.

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DGA35
I look at a lot of Sam Cooke's hits that sound great that were recorded at RCA in Hollywood. Dave Hassinger was also the engineer for those sessions. I always wondered if he suggested the Stones record Good Times as a tribute to Sam.

A few things to keep in mind about Sam Cooke:

1) While some of the material sounds good, it arguably doesn't sound as good as some of the best being recorded at the time. For example, some Ray Charles recordings from around the same time have much more clarity and presence. And some Cooke songs (Shake comes to mind) *do* sound fairly murky.

2) Some Sam Cooke recordings were made in New York, and I think most were made with engineers other than Dave Hassinger. That may account for some differences.

3) The Same Cooke recordings were mostly live, with Sam singing along with the band in the studio. Sometimes (Good Time is actually a good example) he would overdub another vocal or something, but that was more of the exception. With the Stones, the recordings were built up via a series of overdubs, bouncing from tape machine to tape machine. Between generational loss and RCA's practices (supposedly engineers would roll off some of the top end when doing bounces, for example) the murk started to add up.

Presumably ALO being more concerned about feel than fidelity didn't help either.

Wow, good points Lukpac! I was looking at my hybrid SACD of Sam's which shows where/when the songs were recorded and a lot were at RCA Hollywood although there were also some at RCA New York.

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DGA35
Wow, good points Lukpac! I was looking at my hybrid SACD of Sam's which shows where/when the songs were recorded and a lot were at RCA Hollywood although there were also some at RCA New York.

Yes, I just looked, and far more were recorded at RCA that I recalled. It seemed Sam's initial RCA sessions were generally in New York, but then he moved mostly to Hollywood.

Still, the production techniques were much simpler. And as noted, some songs do sound pretty murky.

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lukpac
Presumably ALO being more concerned about feel than fidelity didn't help either.

But that's not necessarily a bad thing, isn't it? There's tons of music out there where it is just the other way round - fidelity wins over feel.

One can say about ALO as a producer what one wants, but the fact remains that he is responsible for some of the most iconic recordings in Rock 'n Roll history - no matter how they sound in pure technical terms, they instantly grab you.

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DGA35
I see ATGB was recorded in late 65 at IBC with Glyn Johns. I would assume it would have been recorded in stereo.

Off topic but I always wondered why the Chess recordings sound so crisp, especially the drums/cymbals versus songs they recorded at RCA.

To me, that indicates the As Tears Go By track was laid down in mono, just like all other UK sessions, cut between 1963 and 1965 (another track done in the UK in 1965 was I'd Much Rather Be With The Boys). The first semi-UK recorded tracks released in stereo, was the Between The Buttons tracks. The original 4-tracks were done in august 1966 at RCA Hollywood. Then these multi-tracks were taken to Olympic Studios in London in late 1966, were those tracks were then bounced down and dubbed further upon.

The first 100% recorded, mixed and released STEREO tracks all done in the UK, were the Satanic Majesties tracks, plus the corresponding We Love You single.

The [stonessessions.com] mention in the Revision History (Page 54, 21-Mar-2016) a Sampler of Tracks who includes two versions of 'As Tears Go By', produced for a reel-to-reel auction scheduled for April 2016. It would be interesting to know if the two versions are Mono or Stereo ....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-24 14:30 by Irix.

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Irix
The [stonessessions.com] mention in the Revision History (Page 54, 21-Mar-2016) a Sampler of Tracks who includes two versions of 'As Tears Go By', produced for a reel-to-reel auction scheduled for April 2016. It would be interesting to know if the two versions are Mono or Stereo ....

The snippets that were posted were mono.
[we.tl]
Expires October 1


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-24 14:46 by Deltics.

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alimente
But that's not necessarily a bad thing, isn't it? There's tons of music out there where it is just the other way round - fidelity wins over feel.

One can say about ALO as a producer what one wants, but the fact remains that he is responsible for some of the most iconic recordings in Rock 'n Roll history - no matter how they sound in pure technical terms, they instantly grab you.

But you can have both. The Chess recordings attest to that.

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Blueranger
To me, that indicates the As Tears Go By track was laid down in mono, just like all other UK sessions, cut between 1963 and 1965 (another track done in the UK in 1965 was I'd Much Rather Be With The Boys). The first semi-UK recorded tracks released in stereo, was the Between The Buttons tracks. The original 4-tracks were done in august 1966 at RCA Hollywood. Then these multi-tracks were taken to Olympic Studios in London in late 1966, were those tracks were then bounced down and dubbed further upon.

The first 100% recorded, mixed and released STEREO tracks all done in the UK, were the Satanic Majesties tracks, plus the corresponding We Love You single.

I do scratch my head over As Tears Go By. IBC had at least 3-track capabilities at the time, so it seems odd that they would have recorded in mono, especially after they had been recording to multitrack for over a year at Chess and RCA.

It remains unclear to me exactly what Buttons recording was done where, but apparently UK sessions were held at Pye and Olympic, and possibly IBC as well. And supposedly mixed back at RCA.

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lukpac

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alimente
But that's not necessarily a bad thing, isn't it? There's tons of music out there where it is just the other way round - fidelity wins over feel.

One can say about ALO as a producer what one wants, but the fact remains that he is responsible for some of the most iconic recordings in Rock 'n Roll history - no matter how they sound in pure technical terms, they instantly grab you.

But you can have both. The Chess recordings attest to that.

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Blueranger
To me, that indicates the As Tears Go By track was laid down in mono, just like all other UK sessions, cut between 1963 and 1965 (another track done in the UK in 1965 was I'd Much Rather Be With The Boys). The first semi-UK recorded tracks released in stereo, was the Between The Buttons tracks. The original 4-tracks were done in august 1966 at RCA Hollywood. Then these multi-tracks were taken to Olympic Studios in London in late 1966, were those tracks were then bounced down and dubbed further upon.

The first 100% recorded, mixed and released STEREO tracks all done in the UK, were the Satanic Majesties tracks, plus the corresponding We Love You single.

I do scratch my head over As Tears Go By. IBC had at least 3-track capabilities at the time, so it seems odd that they would have recorded in mono, especially after they had been recording to multitrack for over a year at Chess and RCA.

It remains unclear to me exactly what Buttons recording was done where, but apparently UK sessions were held at Pye and Olympic, and possibly IBC as well. And supposedly mixed back at RCA.

There are a number of Between The Buttons tracks, which were undoubtly started at RCA. A high-quality boot, features fantastic backing tracks, which were apparently copied from a tape at RCA:

Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby?
Yesterday's Papers
My Obsession
All Sold Out
Please Go Home
Complicated
I Can See It (unreleased)

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby?" was finished and released, together with "Who's Driving Your Plane?" at RCA. There also exists an alternate mix of the former, with add. vocals and dubs.

For "I Can See It" it remains unclear if it was finished in England. Besides the instrumental track, there exists 2 further versions, one with vocals over the mentioned backing track and then a totally different take with vocals. Both are in mono.

"Dandelion" has a very open backing track. Since there exists a demo of this ("Sometimes Happy Sometimes Blue") and that it started to appear on bootleg together with a demo of "Yesterday's Papers" (which were indeed started at RCA), it suggests that it was recorded together with the other Buttons tracks at RCA Hollywood and that the two demo tracks were from the same tape.

"Let's Spend The Night Together" and "Ruby Tuesday" also exists as instrumentals, but they are different sounding than the tracks mentioned above. They 'could' be the backing tracks used for tv sing-back in early 1967, however.

"Back Street Girl", "Connection", "She Smiled Sweetly" and "Cool Calm Collected", "Who's Been Sleeping Here", "Miss Amanda Jones" and "Something Happend" sounds very similar to "Night" and "Ruby". They are very 'narrow' and dry, compared to the RCA tracks. Listen especially to the drums, which sounds very much the same on all these tracks. This suggests that these tracks, together with the tracks from the january single, was recorded either at IBC or at Olympic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-24 18:04 by Blueranger.

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lukpac

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alimente
But that's not necessarily a bad thing, isn't it? There's tons of music out there where it is just the other way round - fidelity wins over feel.

One can say about ALO as a producer what one wants, but the fact remains that he is responsible for some of the most iconic recordings in Rock 'n Roll history - no matter how they sound in pure technical terms, they instantly grab you.

But you can have both. The Chess recordings attest to that.

Of course, but they show that it's obviously more a matter of studio equipment and experienced engineers than a matter of the actual producer which was also ALO in this case.

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Blueranger
There are a number of Between The Buttons tracks, which were undoubtly started at RCA. A high-quality boot, features fantastic backing tracks, which were apparently copied from a tape at RCA:

Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby?
Yesterday's Papers
My Obsession
All Sold Out
Please Go Home
Complicated
I Can See It (unreleased)

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby?" was finished and released, together with "Who's Driving Your Plane?" at RCA. There also exists an alternate mix of the former, with add. vocals and dubs.

For "I Can See It" it remains unclear if it was finished in England. Besides the instrumental track, there exists 2 further versions, one with vocals over the mentioned backing track and then a totally different take with vocals. Both are in mono.

"Dandelion" has a very open backing track. Since there exists a demo of this ("Sometimes Happy Sometimes Blue") and that it started to appear on bootleg together with a demo of "Yesterday's Papers" (which were indeed started at RCA), it suggests that it was recorded together with the other Buttons tracks at RCA Hollywood and that the two demo tracks were from the same tape.

"Let's Spend The Night Together" and "Ruby Tuesday" also exists as instrumentals, but they are different sounding than the tracks mentioned above. They 'could' be the backing tracks used for tv sing-back in early 1967, however.

"Back Street Girl", "Connection", "She Smiled Sweetly" and "Cool Calm Collected", "Who's Been Sleeping Here", "Miss Amanda Jones" and "Something Happend" sounds very similar to "Night" and "Ruby". They are very 'narrow' and dry, compared to the RCA tracks. Listen especially to the drums, which sounds very much the same on all these tracks. This suggests that these tracks, together with the tracks from the january single, was recorded either at IBC or at Olympic.

I'm not sure about Have You Seen Your Mother. Nico Zentgraf lists an RCA recording as unverified, and seems to point to the master being recorded at IBC.

As far as the sound of the Buttons tracks go, I'm honestly not sure if there's enough aural evidence to determine what was recorded where. Especially when tracks were probably pieced together at different studios. Like, is a particular drum sound due to how one of the engineers recorded them? Or due to how another engineer performed a reduction mix?

You mention Back Street Girl along with a number of other tracks, but honestly, I don't think it sounds like most of those. For example, Connection is very bright and poppy, while BSG is kind of murky. But again, is that due to where the basic tracks were recorded, or something else?

Brian Wilson saw some sort of My Obsession session, presumably at RCA, so there's that.

A few people mentioned fake stereo. Here is a good example of it. The right and left channels are EQ differently. It's actually mono.








Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-25 06:20 by More Hot Rocks.

Pretty sure Yesterdays Papers and Ruby Tuesday were done totally at Olympic Studios.

Cool, Calm, Collected is definitely from RCA.

But anyway, some tracks were recorded from scratch at Olympic, it wasn't just overdubbing sessions on to RCA backing tracks.

The Have You Seen/IBC session is probably for the Mike Leander horns.

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Blueranger

The first 100% recorded, mixed and released STEREO tracks all done in the UK, were the Satanic Majesties tracks, plus the corresponding We Love You single.

I think you are forgetting the overdubbing and mixing which took place at Bell Sound, NYC.

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His Majesty
The Have You Seen/IBC session is probably for the Mike Leander horns.

Note that horns were apparently overdubbed at least twice. The alternate version (which it should be noted actually has the same rhythm track as the master take) has different horns:

[www.youtube.com]

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Irix
The ping-pong stereo version of 'Satisfaction' is also contained on the east-german compilation 'The Rolling Stones' (LP / Cass.), AMIGA label, early 1982. The source for this compilation has been taken from the west-german Telefunken-Decca Schallplatten GmbH (Teldec).

I'm listening to the LP now. Satisfaction is fake stereo (basically just mono with some added reverb and delay), not the true stereo mix on the Hot Rocks 1 CD.