Brian: what I think.
He started the band, selected or recruited them, gave them an identity, trained Keith up on guitar in all those marathon sessions. There were lots of talented young musicians at that time and he put together the best. You know they joke that Wyman was asked to join the band because he had the right amp, but that's nonsense -- Brian wanted good musicians.
He had some kind of mental illness but before the drugs/alcohol messed him up he was a bright, hard working, functional young man. He was older than them and had a clear vision. He wanted them to be a blues band *and* he wanted them to be big.
They must have been very exciting as a live band, because they were big in London even before Mick and Keith started writing songs and people around them believed in them.
Without him, all of them would have formed or gotten into some type of band, maybe something like the Pretty Things. It probably wouldn't have been like the Stones. Mick might have wound up fronting the Faces. Keith might have knocked around for a few years and joined up with Jimmy Paige.
So many things in life are contingent. The Stones weren't fated to happen. As Stones fans, we're lucky things fell into place and we should give Brian credit for his role in that

Mick might have joined Manfred Mann in place of Paul Jones.

Endless what if scenarios.

I don't think Brian trained Keith on Chuck Berry-guitar

I also think they learned their Robert Johnson-stuff together, by listening to his album.

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His Majesty
Mick might have joined Manfred Mann in place of Paul Jones.

Endless what if scenarios.

What if...Elanor Roosevelt ...could fly? Endless what if's.....

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

Looking forward seeing him end of October in O2 Arena. The weekend will be a PARTY. Lots of good music......

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wonderboy
Brian: what I think.
He started the band, selected or recruited them, gave them an identity, trained Keith up on guitar in all those marathon sessions. There were lots of talented young musicians at that time and he put together the best. You know they joke that Wyman was asked to join the band because he had the right amp, but that's nonsense -- Brian wanted good musicians.
He had some kind of mental illness but before the drugs/alcohol messed him up he was a bright, hard working, functional young man. He was older than them and had a clear vision. He wanted them to be a blues band *and* he wanted them to be big.
They must have been very exciting as a live band, because they were big in London even before Mick and Keith started writing songs and people around them believed in them.
Without him, all of them would have formed or gotten into some type of band, maybe something like the Pretty Things. It probably wouldn't have been like the Stones. Mick might have wound up fronting the Faces. Keith might have knocked around for a few years and joined up with Jimmy Paige.
So many things in life are contingent. The Stones weren't fated to happen. As Stones fans, we're lucky things fell into place and we should give Brian credit for his role in that

This is the best post I have read for a long time in this forum.

I dont think Keith would have gone anywhere without Mick.

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Redhotcarpet
I dont think Keith would have gone anywhere without Mick.

Ron Wood had a career before the Stones, so why wouldn't Keith have made it?
Keith would have found another partner and his songwriting would have come to the fore. A lot of those 'guitar heroes' couldn't really write a song, but he could.

Keith followed Mick, Keith only got the gig because of Mick. Ronnie is a completely different animal - he hung around everyone in the 60s, very easy going and social (climber).

I love Keef, he is the beating heart of the band, but he is not from this planet. Wyman is a very sweet, humble, down to earth guy. My favorite Stone.

Very entertaining article. Thanks for posting it.

Cheers.

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wonderboy

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Redhotcarpet
I dont think Keith would have gone anywhere without Mick.

Ron Wood had a career before the Stones, so why wouldn't Keith have made it?
Keith would have found another partner and his songwriting would have come to the fore. A lot of those 'guitar heroes' couldn't really write a song, but he could.

It took a certain amount of situations for Keith to start trying to write songs. Change anything before that and he may never have even tried.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-24 21:35 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

It took a certain amount of situations for Keith to start trying to write songs. Change anything before that and he may never have even tried.

I'm pretty sure Keith would have kept trying if Mick and joined the Stones without him. He would have gotten in a band eventually.
And everybody was trying to write songs. Heck, even Gerry and the Pacemakers were writing some of their own songs. So I think Keith would have given it a shot. Doesn't mean they would have been popular in a different context, but I think he would have had a good career. (Maybe he would have gotten into the Stones in 1969 as the replacement for Brian!)

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wonderboy

I'm pretty sure Keith would have kept trying if Mick and joined the Stones without him. He would have gotten in a band eventually.
And everybody was trying to write songs. Heck, even Gerry and the Pacemakers were writing some of their own songs. So I think Keith would have given it a shot. Doesn't mean they would have been popular in a different context, but I think he would have had a good career. (Maybe he would have gotten into the Stones in 1969 as the replacement for Brian!)

Hehe, being sure about something that didn't happen.

Who's to say Keith wouldn't have been knocked down by a car in Dartford on a rainy thursday night in May 1963? Or lose an arm in 1964?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-25 00:01 by His Majesty.

Who's to say Keith wouldn't have been knocked down by a car in Dartford on a rainy thursday night in May 1963? Or lose an arm in 1964?



Geeeeeeeeeeez Phil tame it down a wee bit ... hhhhhaaaaa...
But hey ya can say that about any one of us ... There's a lotta forks in the roads of life ....



ROCKMAN

Posted with tongue in cheek, sir.

Many a fork indeed.

I dig....all is well man ... all is well ....



ROCKMAN

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wonderboy
Brian: what I think.
He started the band, selected or recruited them, gave them an identity, trained Keith up on guitar in all those marathon sessions. There were lots of talented young musicians at that time and he put together the best. You know they joke that Wyman was asked to join the band because he had the right amp, but that's nonsense -- Brian wanted good musicians.
He had some kind of mental illness but before the drugs/alcohol messed him up he was a bright, hard working, functional young man. He was older than them and had a clear vision. He wanted them to be a blues band *and* he wanted them to be big.
They must have been very exciting as a live band, because they were big in London even before Mick and Keith started writing songs and people around them believed in them.
Without him, all of them would have formed or gotten into some type of band, maybe something like the Pretty Things. It probably wouldn't have been like the Stones. Mick might have wound up fronting the Faces. Keith might have knocked around for a few years and joined up with Jimmy Paige.
So many things in life are contingent. The Stones weren't fated to happen. As Stones fans, we're lucky things fell into place and we should give Brian credit for his role in that

Yeah, they were a below average back room band before they met Brian. Listen to the Little Boy Blue rehearsals, that's more or less trash (compared to the great stuff 1963 onwards).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-25 11:03 by Monsoon Ragoon.

Whether Bill chooses to acknowledge it or not, Keith Richards was working class, as was/is defined by the English class system at the time. His parents were both blue collar workers...his mum worked in a shop and factory as did his dad. They lived in a council house....Bill is wrong...perhaps purposely wrong.

Keith was/is common people that worked hard/got lucky to better his lot.

Bill is, at times bitter, probably for good reason, probably also out of jealousy.

Bless em both.

There can be no doubt that Brian Jones was crucieal during the first years of the Stones. As said before, he had a vision, and yes, he was a bit of an egomaniac. But this rather helped in the rude music business when the started with the band. And he had the prettiest girl-friends whioch made the Stones credible (remember Let's spend the night together?). He played exotic instruments which was very attractive (see Lady Jane or Paint it, black on the Ed Sullivan Show). The Stones were protagonists of fashion, liberty, and sex. And Brian was the visual center.

But up till 1966 or 1967 Brian was for many the most popular Stone due to his angelic looks and his role as a fashion-maker which was essential for the band. Fans did not know about the internal problems within the band (John Lennon cerstainly was also someone who was not too easy to sope with, btw) or Brian's illegitimate children. He was an idol to an extent that many People cannot imagine today.

Brian was not only the founder of the band but during the first years he represented the image of the Stones when the other's Looks were still a bit boring.

IMO it is wrong to narrow the view only on Mick and Keith. It's the chemistry, good Managers & publicity and good luck that lead a band to success. I do not believe tha Mick and Keith would have made it without Brian. When he got lost dueto his personal problems they could go on by themselves.

I was talking about World War 3 with some friends the other day and one of them
made the point that Mick and Keith’s relationship, despite its complexities, is nowhere near as complex as the relationship between Bill and Mick/Keith.

I wonder what they really think of each other?

I know Keith appreciates Bill’s bass playing contributions to the band but what about Mick?

Judging by interviews Keith still stays in touch with Bill and since Keith got over serious drugs they have always got on well in my opinion. Mick and Bill not so much, roundabout WW3 Bill was making sounds in the press that the Stones could replace Mick to tour, not sure Mick was ever the same with Bill after that.

As for Mick and Keith's relationship these days it's not even a working one as we can see with this album. Personally i think Mick finds it hard to be in the same room as Keith. Rehearsal is the only time they have to tolerate each other. Sorry to be so negative but all that show of brotherhood on stage is for the cameras.

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keithsman
Judging by interviews Keith still stays in touch with Bill and since Keith got over serious drugs they have always got on well in my opinion. Mick and Bill not so much, roundabout WW3 Bill was making sounds in the press that the Stones could replace Mick to tour, not sure Mick was ever the same with Bill after that.

As for Mick and Keith's relationship these days it's not even a working one as we can see with this album. Personally i think Mick finds it hard to be in the same room as Keith. Rehearsal is the only time they have to tolerate each other. Sorry to be so negative but all that show of brotherhood on stage is for the cameras.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. They were working together in the studio, just the two of them and Steve Jordan, last year.

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DandelionPowderman

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keithsman
Judging by interviews Keith still stays in touch with Bill and since Keith got over serious drugs they have always got on well in my opinion. Mick and Bill not so much, roundabout WW3 Bill was making sounds in the press that the Stones could replace Mick to tour, not sure Mick was ever the same with Bill after that.

As for Mick and Keith's relationship these days it's not even a working one as we can see with this album. Personally i think Mick finds it hard to be in the same room as Keith. Rehearsal is the only time they have to tolerate each other. Sorry to be so negative but all that show of brotherhood on stage is for the cameras.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. They were working together in the studio, just the two of them and Steve Jordan, last year.

The glass is half full, i like that DP, but for an album to take all these years to try and finish suggest communication problems between them. We also get feed back that Mick goes in and does a bit, then Keith , but not very often together. Plus Steve Jordan is Keith's man, if Keith is working with Steve Jordan on a Stones album that could be because of frustration if Mick is avoiding working with Keith. It's obvious things are at an all time low for a gap of 15 years between Stones albums.

I certainly wouldn't call this period an "all-time low" compared to the years between Dirty Work and Steel Wheels. THAT was the all-time low.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-12 16:47 by keefriff99.

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keefriff99
I certainly wouldn't call period this an "all-time low" compared to the years between Dirty Work and Steel Wheels. THAT was the all-time low.

So you think a 15 year gap in creativity is less negative than a 3 year gap, and that's if the album gets finished this year and if it's any good.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-12 16:22 by keithsman.

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keithsman

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DandelionPowderman

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keithsman
Judging by interviews Keith still stays in touch with Bill and since Keith got over serious drugs they have always got on well in my opinion. Mick and Bill not so much, roundabout WW3 Bill was making sounds in the press that the Stones could replace Mick to tour, not sure Mick was ever the same with Bill after that.

As for Mick and Keith's relationship these days it's not even a working one as we can see with this album. Personally i think Mick finds it hard to be in the same room as Keith. Rehearsal is the only time they have to tolerate each other. Sorry to be so negative but all that show of brotherhood on stage is for the cameras.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. They were working together in the studio, just the two of them and Steve Jordan, last year.

The glass is half full, i like that DP, but for an album to take all these years to try and finish suggest communication problems between them. We also get feed back that Mick goes in and does a bit, then Keith , but not very often together. Plus Steve Jordan is Keith's man, if Keith is working with Steve Jordan on a Stones album that could be because of frustration if Mick is avoiding working with Keith. It's obvious things are at an all time low for a gap of 15 years between Stones albums.

What about the notion that there really isn't all that much 'wrong' in their relationship? I think we, as fans, like to cling to that idea because ultimately it is the more hopeful scenario: that they are at loggerheads, and that from this kind of place there is the possibility of a solution, a reconciliation. But often a couple a married couple that has been together for many years, and is at peace with each other, choose to sleep in different rooms. And lead almost separate lives. yet their marriage is strong. Time is a motherf8cker.
And IMO the fabled album is not stalled because of some rift between those two. they are just content and settled. No matter what Keith says in interviews; it is he who is done, and slow. Mick and Ron still have a certain amount of drive, and restlessness, but probably not so much Stones related. It is very easy to believe Keith and his Keith-isms. That he can't wait to let the tigers out again etc; and that it is Brenda holding them all back. Look how long it took for his last solo album to complete; and how homespun and sleepy it is.
And re. Bill, I think most of his bitterness was purely financial. I actually always noted that Bill spoke very highly of Mick as a performer and leader. I liked the way he would say that they had the best one of them all.

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keithsman

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keefriff99
I certainly wouldn't call period this an "all-time low" compared to the years between Dirty Work and Steel Wheels. THAT was the all-time low.

So you think a 15 year gap in creativity is less negative than a 3 year gap, and that's if the album gets finished this year and if it's any good.

The band was essentially broken up during that period. The timeline doesn't reflect that, but it's the truth.

Yeah, this has been a very odd and VERY long gap, but they've been far from inactive. I'll take the last 15 years over that late '80s period.

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Palace Revolution 2000

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keithsman

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DandelionPowderman

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keithsman
Judging by interviews Keith still stays in touch with Bill and since Keith got over serious drugs they have always got on well in my opinion. Mick and Bill not so much, roundabout WW3 Bill was making sounds in the press that the Stones could replace Mick to tour, not sure Mick was ever the same with Bill after that.

As for Mick and Keith's relationship these days it's not even a working one as we can see with this album. Personally i think Mick finds it hard to be in the same room as Keith. Rehearsal is the only time they have to tolerate each other. Sorry to be so negative but all that show of brotherhood on stage is for the cameras.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. They were working together in the studio, just the two of them and Steve Jordan, last year.

The glass is half full, i like that DP, but for an album to take all these years to try and finish suggest communication problems between them. We also get feed back that Mick goes in and does a bit, then Keith , but not very often together. Plus Steve Jordan is Keith's man, if Keith is working with Steve Jordan on a Stones album that could be because of frustration if Mick is avoiding working with Keith. It's obvious things are at an all time low for a gap of 15 years between Stones albums.

What about the notion that there really isn't all that much 'wrong' in their relationship? I think we, as fans, like to cling to that idea because ultimately it is the more hopeful scenario: that they are at loggerheads, and that from this kind of place there is the possibility of a solution, a reconciliation. But often a couple a married couple that has been together for many years, and is at peace with each other, choose to sleep in different rooms. And lead almost separate lives. yet their marriage is strong. Time is a motherf8cker.
And IMO the fabled album is not stalled because of some rift between those two. they are just content and settled. No matter what Keith says in interviews; it is he who is done, and slow. Mick and Ron still have a certain amount of drive, and restlessness, but probably not so much Stones related. It is very easy to believe Keith and his Keith-isms. That he can't wait to let the tigers out again etc; and that it is Brenda holding them all back. Look how long it took for his last solo album to complete; and how homespun and sleepy it is.
And re. Bill, I think most of his bitterness was purely financial. I actually always noted that Bill spoke very highly of Mick as a performer and leader. I liked the way he would say that they had the best one of them all.

PALACE, I've always enjoyed your posts but you are way off the mark here saying Keith has no drive, Keith had to wait a long time to find a window of opportunity to release Crosseyed Heart, Keith showed plenty of creative drive to complete that album a short while ago, the jury is still out on Mick, he needs to prove he can still create music at that level, it's been a long while, it's getting to the point where seeing will be believing, but in 15 years we have virtually nothing from Mick that comes close to Ronnie or Keith's last solo efforts.

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keithsman

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DandelionPowderman

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keithsman
Judging by interviews Keith still stays in touch with Bill and since Keith got over serious drugs they have always got on well in my opinion. Mick and Bill not so much, roundabout WW3 Bill was making sounds in the press that the Stones could replace Mick to tour, not sure Mick was ever the same with Bill after that.

As for Mick and Keith's relationship these days it's not even a working one as we can see with this album. Personally i think Mick finds it hard to be in the same room as Keith. Rehearsal is the only time they have to tolerate each other. Sorry to be so negative but all that show of brotherhood on stage is for the cameras.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. They were working together in the studio, just the two of them and Steve Jordan, last year.

The glass is half full, i like that DP, but for an album to take all these years to try and finish suggest communication problems between them. We also get feed back that Mick goes in and does a bit, then Keith , but not very often together. Plus Steve Jordan is Keith's man, if Keith is working with Steve Jordan on a Stones album that could be because of frustration if Mick is avoiding working with Keith. It's obvious things are at an all time low for a gap of 15 years between Stones albums.

He he, most of this is pure speculation (darn, why do the Stones run their operations like Fort Knox!).

It could be as simple as this: They really want their last album to be great, but they're all struggling to come up with material that's good enough, and they realise this. It doesn't have to be anyone's fault



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-12 17:34 by DandelionPowderman.