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MileHigh

We have to get past the "cry baby" attitude where you blame the United States for all of the problems in the world. The US is not perfect, but many places in the world are much much less perfect than the United States. Look at Germany and Japan, they were not cry babies after they lost and are now modern countries with an excellent standard of living. Instead of moaning and complaining, a lot of places in the world should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and create their own civil societies.

It's a really radical and politically incorrect thought: Stop crying, stop complaining that the US crystal ball didn't work, develop your own civil society instead of blowing yourselves and others up all the time. Develop a functioning economy and promote happiness and well being in your own country. Fix your own problems and stop crying about the past.

I think there was something called the Marshall Plan after WWII that ensured there wouldn't be the same issues that transpired after WWI, war reparations and the ultimate fall of the Weimar Republic to fascism. So, if you're suggesting the US now throw money at the problem like they did after WWII, then I'd like to hear that argument.

From my lazy boy recliner, I see that your argument only enhances the notion that the US should stay out of trying to control the future in the Middle East, because they invariably get it wrong.

Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

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Stoneage
Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

Where did the Islamists get their money from? The USA and other Western democracies through both oil sales and direct aid. Islamism rose after the Arab oil embargo drove oil prices through the roof, and the Saudis used the huge profits to fund worldwide religious education for extremist Sunni Islam in the image of their own extreme sect of the religion. Millions of Third World people were sent to school and given books to learn this extremism. In most of the world, people don't even have books in schools or go to school. But they have these books that have been sent around the world by the Saudis for the past forty years or so.

Then we armed and trained a lot of the freedom fighters vs. the Soviets in Afghanistan that turned into the Taliban. We've also supported a lot of causes in the Mideast that turned into people that are lending their expertise to ISIS. The war in Iraq threw a lot of these folks together in prisons such as Abu Gharib (sp?), which created more of it.

Yeah, we did help create it. Doing more of the same won't help. Look how well Vietnam turned out, after all the bombs we dropped, the civilians and military we killed, and our own military that we killed. They still are communist.

The so called world leaders (and I use that term extremely loosely) such as BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA who won't face and call islamic terror for what it is are cowards and we will all continue to pearish due to their selfishness, ignorance and political correctness...sad but true. God help us.

AND EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU (ESPECIALLY THE INFIDELS) KNOWS IT'S TRUE

EDITED 10 TIMES...OKAY I KNOW, I'M DONE.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-24 01:36 by shadooby.

Now, you are doing exactly what I'm criticizing. And you're wrong. We are not responsible for the terror acts in Europe. The perpetrators are. Everything else is speculation.

Man I love to join this political/religion discussion....but I won't




"We Love You" and "All You Need Is Love" love love............

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NICOS
Man I love to join this political/religion discussion....but I won't




"We Love You" and "All You Need Is Love" love love............

You just did...good day!

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shadooby

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NICOS
Man I love to join this political/religion discussion....but I won't




"We Love You" and "All You Need Is Love" love love............

You just did...good day!

Yes I know..........but I couldn't resist....but if you hear my real take on this....love would fade a way....and it would all be a shot away

Good Day Sunshine.......

__________________________

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marianna

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Stoneage
Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

Where did the Islamists get their money from? The USA and other Western democracies through both oil sales and direct aid. Islamism rose after the Arab oil embargo drove oil prices through the roof, and the Saudis used the huge profits to fund worldwide religious education for extremist Sunni Islam in the image of their own extreme sect of the religion. Millions of Third World people were sent to school and given books to learn this extremism. In most of the world, people don't even have books in schools or go to school. But they have these books that have been sent around the world by the Saudis for the past forty years or so.

Then we armed and trained a lot of the freedom fighters vs. the Soviets in Afghanistan that turned into the Taliban. We've also supported a lot of causes in the Mideast that turned into people that are lending their expertise to ISIS. The war in Iraq threw a lot of these folks together in prisons such as Abu Gharib (sp?), which created more of it.

Yeah, we did help create it. Doing more of the same won't help. Look how well Vietnam turned out, after all the bombs we dropped, the civilians and military we killed, and our own military that we killed. They still are communist.

Indeed. But you can repeat it again and again and show the facts, and they will not even deny it, the information just doesn't enter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-24 09:50 by matxil.

.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-25 06:02 by tioms.

This one is for Belgium/ Belgique - One of my favourite performers: Le Plat Pays - Jaques Brel

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shadooby
The so called world leaders (and I use that term extremely loosely) such as BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA who won't face and call islamic terror for what it is are cowards and we will all continue to pearish due to their selfishness, ignorance and political correctness...sad but true. God help us.

AND EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU (ESPECIALLY THE INFIDELS) KNOWS IT'S TRUE

EDITED 10 TIMES...OKAY I KNOW, I'M DONE.

Exactly right! And remember is new name is "Nero". Now he's doing the Tango while the world burns. What a buffoon

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Papo
Given that BV is in Cuba and hasn't got a proper internet connection we should stop discussion politics and religion here, as we all know that he doesn't like certain topics being discussed here (which I agree with) and he's not around to moderate.

With respect to BV we should discipline ourselves and keep an eye on this board while he can't probably take care of the board himself.

What he or she said.
I thought it would be obvious that the thread
was meant as a tribute to the victims.

We all have opinions,anger ,whatever.
It's neither the right place nor time to debate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-24 16:27 by shortfatfanny.

Thank you.


Peace to everyone.


Love will conquer hate.

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Stoneage
Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

I guess you may as well ask, given we're going there...who is lighting the fuse?

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treaclefingers

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Stoneage
Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

I guess you may as well ask, given we're going there...who is lighting the fuse?

That's the same old cliche though, isn't it? "I am a self-hating Westerner and we are always the bad guys and everything is our fault."

Here is the truth: You are never going to get perfection, and if all of a sudden the US and Nato interests suddenly pulled back and went home, and there were no UN peacekeeping troops in sensitive areas all around the globe, and there were no US troops in South Korea, and so on, then in a few days the world wound descend into a form of low-level anarchy with many small and medium-sized hot wars everywhere. Absolutely horrendous atrocities and massacres would be happening all the time and it would make Rwanda 1994 look like a petty schoolyard fight between 10-year-olds.

Like it or not, the "bad guys" are also the "good guys" and if the good guys were not around the world would become a more horrifying and nastier place than you could ever imagine. So you can say it is "our fault" but if somebody blows up a shopping mall on a crowded Thursday night in your town because "we are always the bad guys" you might change your tune.

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MileHigh

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treaclefingers

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Stoneage
Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

I guess you may as well ask, given we're going there...who is lighting the fuse?

That's the same old cliche though, isn't it? "I am a self-hating Westerner and we are always the bad guys and everything is our fault."

Here is the truth: You are never going to get perfection, and if all of a sudden the US and Nato interests suddenly pulled back and went home, and there were no UN peacekeeping troops in sensitive areas all around the globe, and there were no US troops in South Korea, and so on, then in a few days the world wound descend into a form of low-level anarchy with many small and medium-sized hot wars everywhere. Absolutely horrendous atrocities and massacres would be happening all the time and it would make Rwanda 1994 look like a petty schoolyard fight between 10-year-olds.

Like it or not, the "bad guys" are also the "good guys" and if the good guys were not around the world would become a more horrifying and nastier place than you could ever imagine. So you can say it is "our fault" but if somebody blows up a shopping mall on a crowded Thursday night in your town because "we are always the bad guys" you might change your tune.

I don't discount anything you're saying. All I'm saying is ultimately we reap what we sow.

I would just add, that if a 'do-over' were allowed on the past 50-60 years, I'm pretty sure things could have been handled a helluva lot better than they have been.

Easy being a Monday morning QB I know, but sometimes decisions made for short term gain have consequences that last for generations.

right blame US for this. Don't dare blame the ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, something our president Nero refuses to even utter

It's possible or probable that if BV were here, he would lock this thread or delete it entirely. People are taking advantage of the fact that he has something better to do and lacks internet access. He's requested more than once that politics not be discussed, so all of us guilty of indulging, including me, are not honoring his wishes.

There are plenty of other sites around the Internet to discuss items in the news.

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marianna
It's possible or probable that if BV were here, he would lock this thread or delete it entirely. People are taking advantage of the fact that he has something better to do and lacks internet access. He's requested more than once that politics not be discussed, so all of us guilty of indulging, including me, are not honoring his wishes.

There are plenty of other sites around the Internet to discuss items in the news.

good point

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MileHigh

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treaclefingers

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Stoneage
Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

I guess you may as well ask, given we're going there...who is lighting the fuse?

That's the same old cliche though, isn't it? "I am a self-hating Westerner and we are always the bad guys and everything is our fault."

Here is the truth: You are never going to get perfection, and if all of a sudden the US and Nato interests suddenly pulled back and went home, and there were no UN peacekeeping troops in sensitive areas all around the globe, and there were no US troops in South Korea, and so on, then in a few days the world wound descend into a form of low-level anarchy with many small and medium-sized hot wars everywhere. Absolutely horrendous atrocities and massacres would be happening all the time and it would make Rwanda 1994 look like a petty schoolyard fight between 10-year-olds.

Like it or not, the "bad guys" are also the "good guys" and if the good guys were not around the world would become a more horrifying and nastier place than you could ever imagine. So you can say it is "our fault" but if somebody blows up a shopping mall on a crowded Thursday night in your town because "we are always the bad guys" you might change your tune.

Should't we be able to expect, however, that leaders of progressive Western governments surround themselves with advisors that know and/or understand the nuances of various regions of the world if these government's foreign policy somehow connects them to these certain regions? Hasn't enough history already been made and written about that can aid "making decision" when the time comes?

An absurd (but perhaps apt, nonetheless) comparison: Didn't an armed group of Americans recently occupy the headquarters of an Oregon wildlife refuge at the beginning of this year? An organization that claimed to promote constitutional freedom and, as many American conservatives feel, are at odds with the "ideology" of the current administration?

The majority of experience the modern Middle East has had with secular Western values and ideas has been based on those imported - by and large - by violent means and within the context of conflicts actively started or kept alive by Western governments, primarily those of the British and Americans. Are these governments (and their populations) really that naive to think that the populations that make up these societies that have been built on hunderds (thousands) of years of culture will somehow convert their way of thinking and living because it's preferred by the West? On the contrary, these societies tend to actively revolt against the imported ideology of violent occupiers and generally begin adhering to a more radicalized version of their normal culture. Isn't the history surrounding the overthrow of Mossadegh in 1953 by the British and American governments following his nationalization of Iran's oil fields and the implementation of the Shah, which culminated in the Iranian Revolution and the hostage crisis, a good example? What about the Soviet invasion of and war with Afghanistan in the '80s which gave way to the rise of the Taliban?

It's not our call to decide when and if the Middle East (an Islam, for that matter) embraces secular ideologies and we have definately not succeeded in attempting to make that call by way of the sword. Just like our very own societies, Middle Eastern and Islamic societies have to be able to evolve themselves. I think it's safe to say that our presence in the region has had a negative effect on this evolutionary process.

I don't think this is an issue that requires us as Westerners (or Americans) to get defensive and offended because we are somehow considered the "horrible Americans" and what-not, but I think it's time that we, as Westerners and Americans, accept that our behavior in the region has played a very major role in the turmoil that engulfs the Middle East and has begun crossing the borders into our own backyards. In turn, we must act accordingly in order to correct our mistakes.Unfortunately, though, we're still trying to deal with the problem with bombs.

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electric-duane

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MileHigh

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treaclefingers

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Stoneage
Behind this political correct relativism is always a political agenda. Whom I seldom agree with. Use Occham's Razor: Who are the perpetrators and what do they have in common?
Is it oil companies who are throwing bombs and killing civilians in Paris, Madrid, London or Brussels? Or American capitalists? Or is it members of islamistic murder sects originating from the Middle East?

I guess you may as well ask, given we're going there...who is lighting the fuse?

That's the same old cliche though, isn't it? "I am a self-hating Westerner and we are always the bad guys and everything is our fault."

Here is the truth: You are never going to get perfection, and if all of a sudden the US and Nato interests suddenly pulled back and went home, and there were no UN peacekeeping troops in sensitive areas all around the globe, and there were no US troops in South Korea, and so on, then in a few days the world wound descend into a form of low-level anarchy with many small and medium-sized hot wars everywhere. Absolutely horrendous atrocities and massacres would be happening all the time and it would make Rwanda 1994 look like a petty schoolyard fight between 10-year-olds.

Like it or not, the "bad guys" are also the "good guys" and if the good guys were not around the world would become a more horrifying and nastier place than you could ever imagine. So you can say it is "our fault" but if somebody blows up a shopping mall on a crowded Thursday night in your town because "we are always the bad guys" you might change your tune.

Should't we be able to expect, however, that leaders of progressive Western governments surround themselves with advisors that know and/or understand the nuances of various regions of the world if these government's foreign policy somehow connects them to these certain regions? Hasn't enough history already been made and written about that can aid "making decision" when the time comes?

An absurd (but perhaps apt, nonetheless) comparison: Didn't an armed group of Americans recently occupy the headquarters of an Oregon wildlife refuge at the beginning of this year? An organization that claimed to promote constitutional freedom and, as many American conservatives feel, are at odds with the "ideology" of the current administration?

The majority of experience the modern Middle East has had with secular Western values and ideas has been based on those imported - by and large - by violent means and within the context of conflicts actively started or kept alive by Western governments, primarily those of the British and Americans. Are these governments (and their populations) really that naive to think that the populations that make up these societies that have been built on hunderds (thousands) of years of culture will somehow convert their way of thinking and living because it's preferred by the West? On the contrary, these societies tend to actively revolt against the imported ideology of violent occupiers and generally begin adhering to a more radicalized version of their normal culture. Isn't the history surrounding the overthrow of Mossadegh in 1953 by the British and American governments following his nationalization of Iran's oil fields and the implementation of the Shah, which culminated in the Iranian Revolution and the hostage crisis, a good example? What about the Soviet invasion of and war with Afghanistan in the '80s which gave way to the rise of the Taliban?

It's not our call to decide when and if the Middle East (an Islam, for that matter) embraces secular ideologies and we have definately not succeeded in attempting to make that call by way of the sword. Just like our very own societies, Middle Eastern and Islamic societies have to be able to evolve themselves. I think it's safe to say that our presence in the region has had a negative effect on this evolutionary process.

I don't think this is an issue that requires us as Westerners (or Americans) to get defensive and offended because we are somehow considered the "horrible Americans" and what-not, but I think it's time that we, as Westerners and Americans, accept that our behavior in the region has played a very major role in the turmoil that engulfs the Middle East and has begun crossing the borders into our own backyards. In turn, we must act accordingly in order to correct our mistakes.Unfortunately, though, we're still trying to deal with the problem with bombs.

wow...I only wish I could espouse my thoughts with your clarity. I salute you good sir!

Despicable cultural relativism here. Of course there is political corruption all over the world. And has always been. But corrupt politicians do not murder innocent civilians in Europe or blow themselves up in suicide bombing attacks. If islamistic murder sects attack civilians in Europe (or wherever) we must act in order to protect our societies. Not to act, like some defaitist relativists here propose, would be an act of cowardliness. On the verge of high treason even.

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Stoneage
Despicable cultural relativism here. Of course there is political corruption all over the world. And has always been. But corrupt politicians do not murder innocent civilians in Europe or blow themselves up in suicide bombing attacks. If islamistic murder sects attack civilians in Europe (or wherever) we must act in order to protect our societies. Not to act, like some defaitist relativists here propose, would be an act of cowardliness. On the verge of high treason even.

Corrupt politicians don't, of course, murder innocent civilians in Europe or blow themselves up in suicide bombing attacks. They run for president and, when they win, they send their country's armies and air forces to do the dirty work for them.

Nobody said not to act, but the key is to act accordingly and, at the same time, acknowledge the fact that acting inapproriately is cause for an undesireable reaction. I do supprt the West in hunting down these psychos and bringing them to justice and hope that justice is served sooner, as opposed to later.

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shortfatfanny

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Papo
Given that BV is in Cuba and hasn't got a proper internet connection we should stop discussion politics and religion here, as we all know that he doesn't like certain topics being discussed here (which I agree with) and he's not around to moderate.

With respect to BV we should discipline ourselves and keep an eye on this board while he can't probably take care of the board himself.

What he or she said.
I thought it would be obvious that the thread
was meant as a tribute to the victims.

We all have opinions, anger, whatever.
It's neither the right place nor time to debate.

Perfect post Papo, you are wise SFF and this point is why this is my first post in this thread.


My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the family and friends.

Furthermore I think some Americans (or Canadians) aren't very well informed about Europe and the situation here right now. We have massive problems with immigration from the Middle East and Africa. It's estimated that there are about 60 millions refugees and asylum seekers on their way to Europe. The Middle East is collapsing and the EU is on the verge of dissolving. And we have a terrorist state in the Middle East, IS or Daesh. This is well beyond complicated. The war in Iraq was a completly other matter. It was stupid to begin with and didn't solve anything. On the contrary it gave birth to chaos in the Middle East. I'm one of many who thinks that W Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld should have been court martialed for this. But the situation in Europe right now is a completely other matter.

pointless argument here.

course we must act if islamic terrorists blow themselves up and kill innocent people, but also like most folk agree, we western governments really have to learn from the history books and stay out of other peopls countries, not start wars in other peoples countries and not try to overthrow governments.

the damage has been done though.

and its not difficult to see why many in the middle east hate western culture.

another fact western goverments dont want to see.

Your argument is pointless and frightfully naive, Buttons67. Stay out of other peoples countries? well, they do not exactly stay out of our countries. There are millions and millions of muslims in Europe right now. And there are millions queueing up. Hate the Western culture? That's not the reason behind the attacks. As I said the IS is forming a caliphate right now. On top of that we have the war in Syria and other islamistic terror groups to deal with. From the way you reason I don't believe you're an European.

I guess that's why BV rightly doesn't want political discussion here. It gets to sounding quite shrill, very quickly.