I found it interesting that during the '69 Hyde Park concert, Mick Taylor, as a brand new Rolling Stone, plays the intro lick for HTW.....you can't see whether Keith is also playing it too....

Since they just recorded the final version, it made me wonder if Mick T played more than he was credited with (just a few fills) on the released single version.

P

Honky Tonk Women Hyde Park 1969

Quote
mrpaulincanada
I found it interesting that during the '69 Hyde Park concert, Mick Taylor, as a brand new Rolling Stone, plays the intro lick for HTW.....you can't see whether Keith is also playing it too....

Since they just recorded the final version, it made me wonder if Mick T played more than he was credited with (just a few fills) on the released single version.

P

Honky Tonk Women Hyde Park 1969

There is a story somewhere out there of just how that intro lick came to be. Something about it being just the back beat of a more complex guitar ensemble that was initially recorded on the tune and during the mixing phase they soloed the part that we now recognize as the intro and realized in was best as a stand alone phrase. I can't remember whether Mick Taylor was a part of that, but seem to think it might have been the part he was playing to contrast with whatever Keith was initially playing...maybe it was Keith playing both parts.

Perhaps someone else can remember that interview or discussion and shed some light on MT's contribution to the tune and provide the story about the intro.

I definitely added something to Honky Tonk Women, but it was more or less complete by the time I arrived and did my overdubs. They had already laid down the backing track, but it was very rough and incomplete. I added some guitars to it, but I didn't play the riffs that start it - that's Keith playing. I played the country kind of influence on the rock licks between the verses.

- Mick Taylor, 1979

timeisonourside.com

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I definitely added something to Honky Tonk Women, but it was more or less complete by the time I arrived and did my overdubs. They had already laid down the backing track, but it was very rough and incomplete. I added some guitars to it, but I didn't play the riffs that start it - that's Keith playing. I played the country kind of influence on the rock licks between the verses.

- Mick Taylor, 1979

timeisonourside.com

Thanks Dandie. Do you recall the story I'm taking about where they muted recorded parts to come up with that simple intro?

No, I only heard about the trouble they had with the drums in the intro.

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I definitely added something to Honky Tonk Women, but it was more or less complete by the time I arrived and did my overdubs. They had already laid down the backing track, but it was very rough and incomplete. I added some guitars to it, but I didn't play the riffs that start it - that's Keith playing. I played the country kind of influence on the rock licks between the verses.

- Mick Taylor, 1979

timeisonourside.com

Thanks Dandie. Do you recall the story I'm taking about where they muted recorded parts to come up with that simple intro?

I also have never heard that story. I have heard the one Dandelion is probably referring to, about Charlie coming in at the "wrong" time.

The intro riff is copied directly from Ry Cooder -he plays this kind of open string riffing on his work with Taj Mahal and Captain Beefheart, and Cooder copied it from the 20's and '30's blues man who would play this kind of riffing in open E. It's a standard turn-around for Robert Johnson for example. Cooder plays the same styling on Memo From Turner, and in the acoustic part of Downtown Suzie.

The genius of Richards is though that he is capable of recognizing and developing a standard riff into something truly unique. There's a million guitar players whom have played the C - Csus4 progression, but Richards is able to turn it into Start Me Up.

Mathijs

Quote
Mathijs
The intro riff is copied directly from Ry Cooder -he plays this kind of open string riffing on his work with Taj Mahal and Captain Beefheart, and Cooder copied it from the 20's and '30's blues man who would play this kind of riffing in open E. It's a standard turn-around for Robert Johnson for example. Cooder plays the same styling on Memo From Turner, and in the acoustic part of Downtown Suzie.

The genius of Richards is though that he is capable of recognizing and developing a standard riff into something truly unique. There's a million guitar players whom have played the C - Csus4 progression, but Richards is able to turn it into Start Me Up.

Mathijs

I would say «inspired by», as Keith both adds to- and plays around with Cooder's licks on other songs.

On Downtown Suzie, for instance, Cooder stops the «thumb and index finger-lick» in G, whilst Keith adds B-B/G-B/G to that lick on his combined G and E-string fills on HTW.

That sense of deveopment is indeed in line with what you're saying about Keith's abilities, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-12-23 12:36 by DandelionPowderman.

IMO Ry Cooder was a bit sour at the time but anyway, this all has been discussed long ago:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Ry Cooder - Honky Tonk Women - Did he write it?
Posted by: z ()
Date: March 28, 2007 16:19

From “The Making of Let it Bleed” by Sean Egan:

<In 1970 Cooder said in Rolling Stone Magazine:
“the rolling stones brought me to England under totally false pretences. They weren’t playing well and were just messing around the studio. When there’d be a lull in the so-called rehearsals, I’d start to play my guitar. Keith Richard would leave the room immediately and never return. I thought he didn’t like me! But as I found out later the tapes would keep rolling……in the four or five weeks I was there I must have played everything I know. They got it all down on these tapes. Everything”. Cooder also alleged that the riff of “Honky Tonk Women” was based on one of his progressions.
“I heard those things he said – I was amazed”, Richards later said. “I learned a lot of things off a lot of people”. However, he did acknowledge that his decision to switch from a six-string to a five-string guitar style was picked up from Cooder.>


Re: Ry Cooder - Honky Tonk Women - Did he write it?
Posted by: Smokey ()
Date: March 28, 2007 16:36

Apparently not just HTW according to Cooder:


Much of the distinctive sound of Dylan’s ’66 acoustic guitar comes from his altered tunings. The two alt. tunings most commonly used in blues, folk and rock are Open E (or D) and Open G. Open E is the ‘Elmore James’ style much used by 60’s British Blues bands (done to death many would say, by Peter Green’s Jeremy Spencer-era Fleetwood Mac) but also put to more original use on songs like the Stones ‘Gimme Shelter’. Open G (especially the 5 string variant) became a staple of the Stones post-‘Honky Tonk Women’ sound. It seems to have entered mainstream British use via Ry Cooder who played on the Let It Bleed album filling Brian Jones’s chair and whose guitar parts mysteriously vanished, only to re-appear, played almost note for note by Keith Richards (a technique known in the trade as a ‘Sponge Job’). Though there are examples to the contrary, Open E has come to be associated broadly with electric Chicago Blues, while Open G is more of an acoustic, country blues tuning. Muddy Waters’ earliest recordings use open G - in fact is was said at one time you could tell which Delta plantation a player came from by his tuning, and a few key phrases indigenous to that tuning.
[www.judasmagazine.com]

Peter Viney
Subject: 4 scousers + The Rolling Stones


Rolling Stones: I’m still reading the Stephen Davis book in dribs and drabs, but the bit around ‘Let it Bleed’ is particularly good on feuds and conspiracies (as well as particularly prurient on listing Marianne Faithfull’s various partners). There’s a long quote from Ry Cooder, against which the ‘feud-starting claims’ in Helm & Stephen Davis’s book on The Band pale in comparison. Cooder had been invited over to London. They got him to play solo in the studio for many hours, taped it all and then stole a number of licks. Cooder walked into the studio unannounced and found Keith working on a new song that he had developed from tapes Cooder had played on. Cooder complains that The Stones, and Keith in particular, did a “sponge job” on him. “A lot of what I did showed up on Let it Bleed, but they only gave me credit for playing mandolin on one cut. ‘Honky Tonk Women” is taken from one of my licks. They even admitted this to John Phillips. What bothers me most is the theft of songs. The Rolling Stones are a reptilian bunch of people.’

This was all reported in Rolling Stone magazine in the 70s, and I remember someone saying that the Stones lived on bits of Cooder right through ‘Exile’ and were still lifting things up to around 1974. (Since when they haven’t done anything as good). ‘Memo from Turner’ from the ‘Performance’ OST shows what they might have sounded like if they’d decided to pay Ry rather than rip him off. As so often when bands need new personel, the existing songwriters are very loathe to admit a new and good one – this was one of the 90s Band problems, I feel.

[theband.hiof.no]

<Ry Cooder who played on the Let It Bleed album filling Brian Jones’s chair and whose guitar parts mysteriously vanished, only to re-appear, played almost note for note by Keith Richards (a technique known in the trade as a ‘Sponge Job’).>

This sentence is from an author/a journalist who is taking huge liberties, as there isn't any quote from Ry, Keith or anyone else about it.

Cooder said they recorded him during rehearsals, not while he was recording tracks for Let It Bleed. And they did indeed release a lot of what he recorded on Jamming With Edward.

That sentence is mis-leading and colours the whole debate, imo.

The solid info we have is the Stones (not Keith) recording Ry during rehearsals, and that Keith let himself be inspired by Cooder's playing and open G-tuning.

There is a difference, a significant difference.

Because Ry Cooder only played mandolin on LIB, and I'm pretty sure they could have sponged that part nicely, as well, if it were the case



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-12-23 13:14 by DandelionPowderman.

Who cares Bård, I just think sometimes it's nice reading ancient topics.

Quote
DancelittleSister
Who cares Bård, I just think sometimes it's nice reading ancient topics.

There are people here who are convinced that Keith didn't invent a guitar note on Let It Bleed, though, and don't we have a responsibility not to mis-lead thousands of people who visit this site?

Merry Christmas!

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DancelittleSister
Who cares Bård, I just think sometimes it's nice reading ancient topics.

There are people here who are convinced that Keith didn't invent a guitar note on Let It Bleed, though, and don't we have a responsibility not to mis-lead thousands of people who visit this site?

Merry Christmas!

Of course Keith did, and you're a true Keithist, that's for sure

Merry Christmas!

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DancelittleSister
Who cares Bård, I just think sometimes it's nice reading ancient topics.

There are people here who are convinced that Keith didn't invent a guitar note on Let It Bleed, though, and don't we have a responsibility not to mis-lead thousands of people who visit this site?

Merry Christmas!

thank you for your insight which i appreciate !

I think the direct quotes from Ry Cooder in the Rolling Stone article and Keith's own admissions that he sponged considerably off Ry are proof enough that some very intentional borrowing went on. Who cares if "The Stones" or "Keith" recorded Ry during those sessions? Who pressed record isn't the point, pretty sure the point was that he was recorded without knowing it was being done. I suspect Keith mined those recording for all he could get just like he mined Chuck Berry and other artists that moved him. The difference was he has Ry isolated on tape and was probably able to do and even better job of emulating him. It is the fact that they invited him to to session work, covertly recorded and copied him that makes this a kind of unique situation really and I do see how that could be considered a bit sleazy.

But this is far from controversial at this point, been discussed a million times. Copying and borrowing is what guitar players and other musicians do. There are usually always enough subtle differences in abilities, attack and phrasing when any two guitar players play that a uniqueness can be perceived. I suspect Keith did indeed try to copy Ry (often directly) on much of the early open G stuff he did and what we ended up with were good Rolling Stones songs.

It would be great to hear those recordings they made of Ry so long ago, I'd bet we would hear plenty of stuff that became the basis for some of Keith future guitar work. Does it make Beggars Banquet or Honky Tonk Women any less great? Not in my mind.

has anyone other than Ry indicated that they were recording him without his knowledge? he has made some rather extreme and unsubstantiated allegations (e.g. i don't believe for a second that HTW was directly copied from him).

if there was an engineer at the studio who said "the stones told me to record ry but not let him know i was doing it" *that* would be worth discussing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-12-23 18:27 by Turner68.

Quote
Turner68
has anyone other than Ry indicated that they were recording him without his knowledge? he has made some rather extreme and unsubstantiated allegations (e.g. i don't believe for a second that HTW was directly copied from him).

if there was an engineer at the studio who said "the stones told me to record ry but not let him know i was doing it" *that* would be worth discussing.

No reason not to believe Ry really. Keeping tapes rolling is somewhat of a common practice and very easy to do. In the end who really cares if the HTW lick was directly copied from Ry. If Ry thinks so I'm actually willing to believe him. I've met the man and his is a straight shooter, and Keith isn't going to admit the lick on one of their biggest hits was lifted. The Stones made a good tune out of it which is where the real work lies. No sense in apologizing for Keith, he doesn't need it, BB was a great record where he played some great guitar. And Ry is a talented and influential guitar player who has influenced more than just Keith Richards.

Quote
Turner68
has anyone other than Ry indicated that they were recording him without his knowledge? he has made some rather extreme and unsubstantiated allegations (e.g. i don't believe for a second that HTW was directly copied from him).

if there was an engineer at the studio who said "the stones told me to record ry but not let him know i was doing it" *that* would be worth discussing.

They recorded what became Jamming With Edward, where some of Ry's licks sound suspiciously similar to bits of riffs Keith later wrote (Midnight Rambler springs to mind).

Haven't heard of other recordings.

Quote
Naturalust

No reason not to believe Ry really. Keeping tapes rolling is somewhat of a common practice and very easy to do. In the end who really cares if the HTW lick was directly copied from Ry. If Ry thinks so I'm actually willing to believe him. I've met the man and his is a straight shooter, and Keith isn't going to admit the lick on one of their biggest hits was lifted.

Call it karmic boomerang but Ry's biggest hit - the main theme from "Paris Texas" - was lifted from Blind Willie Johnson's "Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground".

So, all in all...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-12-23 23:09 by dcba.