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DandelionPowderman

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Turner68

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HMS

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Turner68
IMO they lost it after Some Girls, not Undercover.

Imo, they never "lost it" really. There are outstanding songs on DW, SW, VL, B2B & ABB. The problem with these albums is that they are too long, as I said many times before. Shorten them and you get very good albums with some even great moments. The only album post-Undercover that does not need to be shortened ist DW of course. DW is (almost) perfect.

the band's setlist speaks for itself.

There are many reasons for that, imo. I suspect that laziness is one of them. They have never really bothered to re-learn many songs from the albums they never toured (BB, TSMR, ER, U and DW) - although they have indeed dug out a few.

Had they bothered to rehearse properly, I'm pretty sure we would have heard more songs from these albums more frequently in concert.

thankfully they didn't ;-) just kidding. mostly.

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HMS

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matxil

Wanna Hold You, Too Tough, All The Way Down and Must Be Hell are the 4 songs that spoil Undercover for me.

How can these songs "spoil" the album, these songs are the Stones sounding like the Stones, it´s the essence of what they are. Would these songs be on Exile, everybody would praise them. But a decade after Exile this sound became so familiar with fans, that such songs are considered as "Stones-by-numbers", imo a tough verdict, kind of haughty. These are classic "stonesy-tracks", these are the tracks I want to hear from the Stones, at least 3-4 per album. They offer nothing new, but it´s like meeting an old friend that you know very well.

As I said before, the Stones always sound like the Stones, by definition. That doesn't mean it's always equally good. if Mick would try to sing like Julio Iglesias and Keith would try to play like Status Quo, it would still sound like the Stones. It would also sound very bad.
What I dislike most about Too Tough is the chorus where Mick repeatedly sings "Too tough, too tough". It's annoying.
There is not a single song on Exile, not even "Turd on the Run" which maybe deserves the title of "high quality filler", which has that lack of depth, focus, interest, charm, feel, groove, etc... But I admit that listening to the bootleg session recordings, as posted by Dandelion, the guitars actually sound rather good.

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matxil

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HMS

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matxil

Wanna Hold You, Too Tough, All The Way Down and Must Be Hell are the 4 songs that spoil Undercover for me.

How can these songs "spoil" the album, these songs are the Stones sounding like the Stones, it´s the essence of what they are. Would these songs be on Exile, everybody would praise them. But a decade after Exile this sound became so familiar with fans, that such songs are considered as "Stones-by-numbers", imo a tough verdict, kind of haughty. These are classic "stonesy-tracks", these are the tracks I want to hear from the Stones, at least 3-4 per album. They offer nothing new, but it´s like meeting an old friend that you know very well.

As I said before, the Stones always sound like the Stones, by definition. That doesn't mean it's always equally good. if Mick would try to sing like Julio Iglesias and Keith would try to play like Status Quo, it would still sound like the Stones. It would also sound very bad.
What I dislike most about Too Tough is the chorus where Mick repeatedly sings "Too tough, too tough". It's annoying.
There is not a single song on Exile, not even "Turd on the Run" which maybe deserves the title of "high quality filler", which has that lack of depth, focus, interest, charm, feel, groove, etc... But I admit that listening to the bootleg session recordings, as posted by Dandelion, the guitars actually sound rather good.

agreed. nor on beggar's banquet, let it bleed, and sticky fingers.

stones by numbers songs sound like the stones. you just start to yawn half way through the first chorus, and shut it off once the bridge is over. (i distinctly remember doing this the first time i heard mixed emotions and had to stop myself for a second in shock... i had waited several years for a new stones record!)

it's like returning home for your parent's 50th anniversary and hearing them bicker over the garden. sure, they're arguing about the roses this year and last year it was the front lawn, but at the end of the day, there's nothing new there.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-27 14:09 by DandelionPowderman.

Turd On The Run is not filler. It's a pretty kick ass tune. There seems to be a bit of a waffle with what filler is but generally it's been down to the detail of does it sound like they worked on it? The lyrics alone in Turd are not your average 'let's just say something'.

Filler on EXILE to me is I Just Wanna See His Face but I get that it's some hypnotic thing with a wack vibe and it fits the album. It just so happens to be I don't like it. The other one could be Sweet Black Angel but these two songs are probably only filler in the sense of EXILE and not their catalogue, like a lot of other tunes are later on.

DIRTY WORK is just contract filler. There is a 4 track EP's worth of decent songs on it though, the same with STEEL WHEELS, perhaps 5 tracks, but we could've done without DIRTY WORK at all.

I understand the Stones doing different things. How could they not? Unfortunately it boils down to is it good? Is it any good? Is it interesting? Turns out that none of those really fit. VOODOO is too long as it is and they put some different things on it to expand its sound. Same with BRIDGES. Both of those albums they could've made much shorter.

I've not heard enough UNDERCOVER outtakes to know if something better was done for the album so I'll hold off on saying U should've been shorter regarding Too Tough ha ha.

Casino Boogie, Shake Your Hips, Turd On The Run and Soul Survivor are all filler on Exile. I love them all dearly, but it's not like the album depend on those songs.

I Just Wanna See His Face and Sweet Black Angel are too unique to be filler, they're more like the unusual spice among the ingredients, imho.

To be honest, I don't think anything on Exile deserves the name "filler" not even of the high quality variety, but since I wanted to meet HMS, not even close to halfway but at least somewhere, I could grant some "filler-ness" to Turd on the Run, only to make it more clear that even so, it's miles ahead of Too Tough.

For something to be filler, it needs to be uninspired, and I don't think anything on Exile is uninspired, not even when it's done a bit as a joke (I Just Wanna See His Face) or a "straightforward" cover (Shake Your Hips) or a fast rambling jam (Turd on the Run). Already the rhythm guitar work in the latter two examples is lightyears away from filler, and so is Mick's delivery.

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DandelionPowderman
Make up your minds, guys.

The rest of us simple minds just see it as a transition between the verse and the chorus

T

LOl, I think we all in pretty good agreement here that it is just the beginning of the chorus. But I'm glad you have changed your position on thinking it was a killer bridge.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-27 17:17 by DandelionPowderman.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-27 17:18 by DandelionPowderman.

Dandie, your initial description of it as a killer bridge is what stared the whole discussion actually. It's not even a transition as far as I'm concerned, just the beginning of the chorus. The way it it is sung (and played) makes it pretty obvious since "when it comes to fire" doesn't stand on it's own and is obviously completed both musically and vocally with the rest of the line and chords.

What I was referring to in that line you quote is actually what a pre-chorus was, it related to a preivous post discussing and defining pre-chorus and not about this song, just about the definition.

I tend to look at the take me down little suzie part of Dead Flowers as just the beginning of the (2 part) chorus too, certainly not a bridge, in any case. While being separate set of chords than the rest of the chorus it fits the style of the chorus better that the verses. But this one could perhaps be considered a pre-chorus or transition and is certainly not as clear cut as "when it Comes to Fire".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-27 17:58 by Naturalust.

There's no filler on Exile.
It all makes perfect since when listened in context from start to finish.

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Hairball
There's no filler on Exile.
It all makes perfect since when listened in context from start to finish.

indeed, if you took one song out, the whole album would start to fall apart, like a jenga tower.

i'm willing to bet they spent as much on the sequence of tracks on Exile and deciding which tracks to include vs not as they spent on writing an entire post - Some Girls album

Nice enough rocking track, but not near my top on the album. I always thought the riff was too JJF like, not a bad thing really. Pretty cool lyrics!

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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie, Shake Your Hips, Turd On The Run and Soul Survivor are all filler on Exile. I love them all dearly, but it's not like the album depend on those songs.

I Just Wanna See His Face and Sweet Black Angel are too unique to be filler, they're more like the unusual spice among the ingredients, imho.

I didn't know something could be too unique...

Exile has lots and lots of fillers/rather weak songs. They simply did put every finished song on the album, because after the recording-sessions they were too tired or too bored or too stoned to think about what to leave out.

Too Tough is a better song than some songs on Exile, not the best on Undercover but still very good and a pleasure to listen to.

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie, Shake Your Hips, Turd On The Run and Soul Survivor are all filler on Exile. I love them all dearly, but it's not like the album depend on those songs.

I Just Wanna See His Face and Sweet Black Angel are too unique to be filler, they're more like the unusual spice among the ingredients, imho.

I didn't know something could be too unique...

We learn things every day...

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie, Shake Your Hips, Turd On The Run and Soul Survivor are all filler on Exile. I love them all dearly, but it's not like the album depend on those songs.

I Just Wanna See His Face and Sweet Black Angel are too unique to be filler, they're more like the unusual spice among the ingredients, imho.

I didn't know something could be too unique...

We learn things every day...

I love learning things that aren't true!

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman
Casino Boogie, Shake Your Hips, Turd On The Run and Soul Survivor are all filler on Exile. I love them all dearly, but it's not like the album depend on those songs.

I Just Wanna See His Face and Sweet Black Angel are too unique to be filler, they're more like the unusual spice among the ingredients, imho.

I didn't know something could be too unique...

We learn things every day...

I love learning things that aren't true!

Then I can't help you..

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GasLightStreet
I didn't know something could be too unique...

The confusion arises from the varying definitions of 'unique'.

Additional modifiers can be used, depending on the context. The word can be defined as 'being the only existing one of its type' but can also mean 'unusual; special in some way'. Using this latter definition, modifiers such as 'too' can be used.

.....

Olly.

love this...don't care if it's a retread, they just perform it so well, the weaving guitars, jagger's sloppy vocal. Just oozes.

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Olly

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GasLightStreet
I didn't know something could be too unique...

The confusion arises from the varying definitions of 'unique'.

Additional modifiers can be used, depending on the context. The word can be defined as 'being the only existing one of its type' but can also mean 'unusual; special in some way'. Using this latter definition, modifiers such as 'too' can be used.

It's no different than saying "most unique": it's redundant. Unique means the only one of its kind. One can not be too pregnant or sort of pregnant or kind of pregnant.

I was just kidding with Dande. Something is unique or it isn't.

exile is a great album obviously but it aint perfect, i like 16 of the 18 songs but the album still gives me the impression the band didnt put 100% effort in, they did do a great job with what they had though. as for too tough, its a better than average rocker which would fit in easily to most post 1960,s albums.

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buttons67
exile is a great album obviously but it aint perfect, i like 16 of the 18 songs but the album still gives me the impression the band didnt put 100% effort in, they did do a great job with what they had though. as for too tough, its a better than average rocker which would fit in easily to most post 1960,s albums.

Well, considering they didn't use everything they recorded in France for EOMS... why on Earth would you get that impression!!??!!

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GasLightStreet
Well, considering they didn't use everything they recorded in France for EOMS...

What they didnt use was USELESS indeed, as you can easily hear on the EOMS-Bonus-Disc. What a disappointment. Listenable or only the alternate versions, everything else should have stayed in the garbage can. That´s the place where it belongs.

Too Tough is a trillion times better than any "new" song of that awful EOMS-Bonus-Disc.

Title 5 was good as well, but that was a TSMR outtake

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Olly

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GasLightStreet
I didn't know something could be too unique...

The confusion arises from the varying definitions of 'unique'.

Additional modifiers can be used, depending on the context. The word can be defined as 'being the only existing one of its type' but can also mean 'unusual; special in some way'. Using this latter definition, modifiers such as 'too' can be used.

Thanks, I'm also looking for a definition of the following words:

Ball
Blubber
Hairpin
Onomatopoeia

What is interesting to me is how, no matter what song or record we seem to be talking about, Exile has a way of creeping into a lot of the discussions. What a blessing and a curse for the Stones to so constantly be compared to what is arguably their best work. Hell we even use it to talk about records that aren't even made yet and it was recorded over 40 years ago!

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Naturalust
What is interesting to me is how, no matter what song or record we seem to be talking about, Exile has a way of creeping into a lot of the discussions. What a blessing and a curse for the Stones to so constantly be compared to what is arguably their best work. Hell we even use it to talk about records that aren't even made yet and it was recorded over 40 years ago!

there is certainly nothing new about Doxa's claim. here is an interesting article written around the time of the re-release, titled "how exile on main street killed the rolling stones"

[www.theatlantic.com]

Considering it was well into the 80's by this time it's a good song. I remember being in my mid-teens and thrilled new Stones music was out considering all the crap on the radio. This song rocks pretty good but for 1983 it rocked even more. Guitars sound great, nice change into chorus and sweet solo.

Never skipped it during numerous listens back then.