update: relistened to Hard Days Night. The 1964 song "You Can't Do That" uses a jangly intro, not terribly dissimilar--and a logical precursor--to 1965's "Ticket to Ride." So, my theory I think is solid: that the Byrd's intro to "Mr Tambourine Man" was likely inspired by hearing the Beatles' use of 12-string Rickenbacker (not the Karl Perkins stuff, but this new sound.)

2nd update: just found this - so that solves that question. I don't mind if BV deletes this thread.

"The Byrds (then going by the name Jet Set) began working on Mr Tambourine Man in the fall of 1964, though the band was a bit more skeptical of the song. The first arrangement featured harmony vocals, percussion and acoustic guitars, very much in a folk style.

"Missing was the band’s trademark jingle-jangle of the Rickenbacker electric 12-string guitar, which would not become a part of their sonic signature until members Roger McGuinn, David Crosby, Gene Clark and probably Chris Hillman watched A Hard Day’s Night, in which George Harrison plays the Ric 12 string throughout the film. (McGuinn claims to have been so inspired by the sound that he immediately traded a couple of instruments to get his own Rickenbacker.)"

Source: Battling the British Invasion: Mr Tambourine Man and the fight for American pop independence

......................

Original inquiry

hi -- I always thought the Beatles had recorded "Ticket to Ride" before the Byrds recorded "Mr Tambourine Man" -- but, according to wikipedia, the Byrds started recording "Mr Tambourine Man," specifically the Rickenbacker opening riff, in January 1965, and the Beatles recorded "Ticket to Ride" in February 1965.

I always thought the Byrds were inspired by the Beatles' use of the Rickenbacker, and that's how they came up with the opening to "Mr Tambourine Man." One could say they were -- i.e., meaning, the use of Rickenbacker on Hard Day's Night -- but there's nothing at all like the opening riff that the Byrds used on "Mr Tambourine Man" in any songs from Hard Day's Night. The opening riff on "Ticket to Ride," however, is quite kindred to the Byrds' "Mr Tambourine Man" opening. But "Ticket to Ride" is from Help, from 1965, after the Byrd's finished recording "Mr Tam."

Thoughts? Coincidence? These 2 very similar Rickenbacker lead-ins occurred independently from one another?

Again, I always thought the Byrds were inspired by "Ticket to Ride," but it seems it could have been the other way around--tho I've never heard about the Beatles being all that interested in the Byrds, to the point of emulating them--it would be the other way around.

thanks - this is slightly bugging me because the realization that the Byrds recorded before this jangly Rickenbacker opening prior to the Beatles turned a long-held presumption on its head -- love to hear some thoughts!

- swiss



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-24 12:44 by swiss.

"Ticket To Ride" was released 3 days before the Byrds' Mr. Tamborine Man. Seems safe to assume it was coincidence.

Thanks, Turner! I relistened to Hard Days Night. The Beatles' 1964 song "You Can't Do That" uses a jangly intro, not terribly dissimilar from the Byrds' version of "Mr Tambourine Man--and it is a logical precursor--to 1965's "Ticket to Ride." So, my theory I think is solid: the Byrd's intro to "Mr Tambourine Man" was likely inspired by hearing the Beatles' use of 12-string Rickenbacker (not the Karl Perkins stuff, but the newer sound they were making with that guitar).

Quote
swiss
Thanks, Turner! I relistened to Hard Days Night. The Beatles' 1964 song "You Can't Do That" uses a jangly intro, not terribly dissimilar from the Byrds' version of "Mr Tambourine Man--and it is a logical precursor--to 1965's "Ticket to Ride." So, my theory I think is solid: the Byrd's intro to "Mr Tambourine Man" was likely inspired by hearing the Beatles' use of 12-string Rickenbacker (not the Karl Perkins stuff, but the newer sound they were making with that guitar).

ah i had forgotten about 'you can't do that' and you're exactly right!
bet it was fun listening to hard day's night again - i haven't in ages.

I've just found this:

"Yes, we (George Harrison and I) were friends. He was very reserved. A really sweet guy, he loved his music, loved his family. Not much to say. We went to his house in Hyde Park and he was kind enough to show us around. He let me play his Rickenbacker that he played on A Hard Day's Night. Showed us around his studio and we all went out to dinner. Early on the Byrds went to see A Hard Day's Night, a kind of reconnaissance trip. And we took notes on what the Beatles were playing and bought instruments like they had. We got a Gretsch Country Gentleman and the Rick.
The sound (of The Byrds) actually was formed in New York before I flew out to California. Well, not the 12-string Rickenbacker part, but the part about mixing folk and rock. I was working as a songwriter in Bobby Darin's publishing company in the Brill Building. My job was to listen to the radio and write songs like ones that came over on the radio.
The Beatles came out about that time and I got really jazzed by the Beatles. I loved what they were doing and they were doing a lot of passing chords. Like instead of just going like G, C, D, they'd go G, Bm, Em, C, Am, to D. So, the minor and passing chords I liked and, I thought these are really folk music chord changes. I kind of got it from what they were doing, I guess because they'd been a skiffle band.
I imagined that they were more folk oriented than they really were. I thought they were probably more a folk band that could play bluegrass banjo and mandolin, but they chose to do pop music because it was more commercial.
Turned out not to be the case. But in my imagination this whole thing developed and I started mixing up old folk songs with the Beatles beat and taking them down to Greenwich Village and playing them for the people there. To the point where a guy put out a sign outside that said, "Beatle Imitations." I was kind of put off by that". - Roger McGuinn - Modern Guitars Magazine 2006

[die-augenweide.de]

I love Rickenbacker guitars. My favourite Ricke players' are George Harrison, Paul Weller and Johnny Marr. Of course, The Byrds made use of the instrument to such tremendous effect. I have always felt that their chiming notes are truly the sound of the 1960's. Mr. Tambourine Man and Turn, Turn, Turn couldn't belong to any other decade.

And not to forget...............



__________________________

I remember watching an interview with Roger McGuinn probably in the late 80's where he talked about Mr. Tambourine Man. He said the song was inspired by The Beach Boys Don't Worry Baby.

!2 string guitar is all over the A Hard Days Night album, maybe not in the form of Mr Tambourine Man but still all over it. Seeing that in the film inspired McGuinn to get one. The Searchers also used that chimey sound before The Byrds though i believe the first time round (forget which song) it was by double tracking a guitar with a capo higher up the neck - might have been Needles and Pins which is a dead ringer for a bunch of Byrds numbers.
The Fabs used the Rick on several Beatles For Sale tracks too (8 Days a week,words of love, every little thing, what you're doing) which alternated with George's Gretsch for lead - check out the awesome twang on Baby's In Black, a crap song with a blinding middle 8 harmony and a weird Gretsch solo from George. The Rick was pretty much phased out after Ticket To Ride, making a brief re-appearance on If I Needed Someone.
McGuinn took the instrument to new heights measured at a distance of 8 miles with his Coltrane/Shankar inspired playing on 8 miles high/why /what's happening etc...
the main riff of 8 miles high is actually nicked from an amazing coltrane piece called India - story is that during a tour late 65, crosby was getting everyone wasted and playing Coltrane constantly and telling McGuinn "play like that" - Croz may have a big mouth but he doesn't half come up with some great ideas.

deleted post bitching about Phorum Error.

hairball to the rescue!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-25 06:12 by swiss.

I've seen that 'forum error' or 'phorum error' before when trying to post lengthy articles/interviews with a link.
I learned to just post the first sentence, and then immediately edit post and add the rest of the content. Works like a charm.

Nice thread by the way!

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Quote
Turner68

Quote
swiss
Thanks, Turner! I relistened to Hard Days Night. The Beatles' 1964 song "You Can't Do That" uses a jangly intro, not terribly dissimilar from the Byrds' version of "Mr Tambourine Man--and it is a logical precursor--to 1965's "Ticket to Ride." So, my theory I think is solid: the Byrd's intro to "Mr Tambourine Man" was likely inspired by hearing the Beatles' use of 12-string Rickenbacker (not the Karl Perkins stuff, but the newer sound they were making with that guitar).

ah i had forgotten about 'you can't do that' and you're exactly right!
bet it was fun listening to hard day's night again - i haven't in ages.

Turner - It was! I hadn't listened in ages either. Lots of great tunes and they were on the verge of the verge of really transforming.

Quote
Cristiano Radtke
I've just found this:

"Yes, we (George Harrison and I) were friends. He was very reserved. A really sweet guy, he loved his music, loved his family. Not much to say. We went to his house in Hyde Park and he was kind enough to show us around. He let me play his Rickenbacker that he played on A Hard Day's Night. Showed us around his studio and we all went out to dinner. Early on the Byrds went to see A Hard Day's Night, a kind of reconnaissance trip. And we took notes on what the Beatles were playing and bought instruments like they had. We got a Gretsch Country Gentleman and the Rick.
The sound (of The Byrds) actually was formed in New York before I flew out to California. Well, not the 12-string Rickenbacker part, but the part about mixing folk and rock. I was working as a songwriter in Bobby Darin's publishing company in the Brill Building. My job was to listen to the radio and write songs like ones that came over on the radio.
The Beatles came out about that time and I got really jazzed by the Beatles. I loved what they were doing and they were doing a lot of passing chords. Like instead of just going like G, C, D, they'd go G, Bm, Em, C, Am, to D. So, the minor and passing chords I liked and, I thought these are really folk music chord changes. I kind of got it from what they were doing, I guess because they'd been a skiffle band.
I imagined that they were more folk oriented than they really were. I thought they were probably more a folk band that could play bluegrass banjo and mandolin, but they chose to do pop music because it was more commercial.
Turned out not to be the case. But in my imagination this whole thing developed and I started mixing up old folk songs with the Beatles beat and taking them down to Greenwich Village and playing them for the people there. To the point where a guy put out a sign outside that said, "Beatle Imitations." I was kind of put off by that". - Roger McGuinn - Modern Guitars Magazine 2006

[die-augenweide.de]

Thank you so much, Cristiano. As always -- totally spot-on and awesome. Wish he mentioned when he went to George's place. Thinking several years later. Love what he says about the passing chords and his imagining that they were actually closet-folkies and not realizing til later they were not - haha!

Quote
DGA35
I remember watching an interview with Roger McGuinn probably in the late 80's where he talked about Mr. Tambourine Man. He said the song was inspired by The Beach Boys Don't Worry Baby.

Wouldn't have guessed that. "Don't Worry Baby" always reminds me of "Rag Doll."

Quote
Big Al
I love Rickenbacker guitars. My favourite Ricke players' are George Harrison, Paul Weller and Johnny Marr. Of course, The Byrds made use of the instrument to such tremendous effect. I have always felt that their chiming notes are truly the sound of the 1960's. Mr. Tambourine Man and Turn, Turn, Turn couldn't belong to any other decade.

Big Al, that's a great observation. So true!

NICO -- on which Stones songs is Rick used prominently? I thought "Last Time" but see Brian with Vox Phantom Teardrop.

Quote
ash
The Searchers also used that chimey sound before The Byrds though i believe the first time round (forget which song) it was by double tracking a guitar with a capo higher up the neck - might have been Needles and Pins which is a dead ringer for a bunch of Byrds numbers.
The Fabs used the Rick on several Beatles For Sale tracks too (8 Days a week,words of love, every little thing, what you're doing) which alternated with George's Gretsch for lead - check out the awesome twang on Baby's In Black, a crap song with a blinding middle 8 harmony and a weird Gretsch solo from George. The Rick was pretty much phased out after Ticket To Ride, making a brief re-appearance on If I Needed Someone.
McGuinn took the instrument to new heights measured at a distance of 8 miles with his Coltrane/Shankar inspired playing on 8 miles high/why /what's happening etc...
the main riff of 8 miles high is actually nicked from an amazing coltrane piece called India - story is that during a tour late 65, crosby was getting everyone wasted and playing Coltrane constantly and telling McGuinn "play like that" - Croz may have a big mouth but he doesn't half come up with some great ideas.

Wow, Ash -- thanks, a lot here! Yes, indeed, Searchers -- Needles and Pins -- great call! That was released in January 1964 -- so that means they recorded it late 1963 or January 1964.

Meanwhile, George Harrison received the 2nd-ever made Rickenbacker 12-string after the Beatles appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show (Feb 9, 1964), and recorded "You Can't Do That" on February 25, 1964--the first Beatles song prominently featuring that instrument.

..................
Thanks so much, you guys!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-25 06:14 by swiss.

Quote
Hairball
I've seen that 'forum error' or 'phorum error' before when trying to post lengthy articles/interviews with a link.
I learned to just post the first sentence, and then immediately edit post and add the rest of the content. Works like a charm.

Nice thread by the way!

Holy, smokes, hairball - you were right - it did work like a charm. Thank you!

Quote
swiss
NICO -- on which Stones songs is Rick used prominently? I thought "Last Time" but see Brian with Vox Phantom Teardrop.

While awaiting Nicos, in the Ratbag Boogie thread about Brian's guitars tomk mentions
Brian playing a 12-string Rick on Get Off of My Cloud: [www.iorr.org]

Quote
swiss
... on which Stones songs is Rick used prominently?

GOOMC, Blue Turns To Grey, Mothers Little Helper and... Gomper.

Keith plays it on Gomper.

There are others from same time frame as Blue Turns To Grey, but I've had a few too many to remember at the moment.

EDIT: A 12 string, maybe or maybe not the rickenbacker, was used for slide on Midnight Rambler and Monkey Man. Both played by Keith of course.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-31 23:20 by His Majesty.

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NICOS
And not to forget...............

Chords and crabs, a frustrating combination.

The guitar lick for Tambourine Man sounds like the Beatles' What You're Doing than anything else, which was recorded in 1964. McGuinn can talk about Bach all he wants, but that's where it comes from.

Intro to 'Tell Me', Rickenbacker?

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Come On
Intro to 'Tell Me', Rickenbacker?

Playing GOOMC live in 1967.

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tomk
The guitar lick for Tambourine Man sounds like the Beatles' What You're Doing than anything else, which was recorded in 1964. McGuinn can talk about Bach all he wants, but that's where it comes from.

Quite.

[www.youtube.com]

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with sssoul

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swiss
NICO -- on which Stones songs is Rick used prominently? I thought "Last Time" but see Brian with Vox Phantom Teardrop.

While awaiting Nicos, in the Ratbag Boogie thread about Brian's guitars tomk mentions
Brian playing a 12-string Rick on Get Off of My Cloud: [www.iorr.org]

Thanks, with sssoul!

Brian also played it with slide (for motif) and without on Mothers Little Helper during 1966 US tour.

Love this thread. George Harrison was one of the first of the major pop stars to acquire a rickenbacker 12-string guitar, so I can imagine enthusiastic guitarists get same idea to use. A unique sound for the AHDN album and The Byrds really got mileage soundwisw with the Rickenbacker.

Has there been a book written about the Rickenbacker 12 string?

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His Majesty

Quote
swiss
... on which Stones songs is Rick used prominently?

GOOMC, Blue Turns To Grey, Mothers Little Helper and... Gomper.

Keith plays it on Gomper.

There are others from same time frame as Blue Turns To Grey, but I've had a few too many to remember at the moment.

EDIT: A 12 string, maybe or maybe not the rickenbacker, was used for slide on Midnight Rambler and Monkey Man. Both played by Keith of course.

Thanks, His Majesty...seems the tonal quality of the Rickenbacker played by the Stones is different from that very particular lilting jangly sound, tho I do like it.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
swiss
... on which Stones songs is Rick used prominently?

GOOMC, Blue Turns To Grey, Mothers Little Helper and... Gomper.

Keith plays it on Gomper.

There are others from same time frame as Blue Turns To Grey, but I've had a few too many to remember at the moment.

EDIT: A 12 string, maybe or maybe not the rickenbacker, was used for slide on Midnight Rambler and Monkey Man. Both played by Keith of course.

Keith on Little By Little?

Quote
swiss


Thanks, His Majesty...seems the tonal quality of the Rickenbacker played by the Stones is different from that very particular lilting jangly sound, tho I do like it.

Yup, more angular I guess we could call it.

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DandelionPowderman

Keith on Little By Little?

Just usual 6 strings.

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nightskyman


Has there been a book written about the Rickenbacker 12 string?

Not specifically about the rick 12's, but plenty on their 12 strings.

[www.amazon.co.uk]

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tomk
The guitar lick for Tambourine Man sounds like the Beatles' What You're Doing than anything else, which was recorded in 1964. McGuinn can talk about Bach all he wants, but that's where it comes from.

"You Can't Do That" was recorded and released 8 months ahead of "What You're Doing..." and it sounds even more Byrds-y to me.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
swiss


Thanks, His Majesty...seems the tonal quality of the Rickenbacker played by the Stones is different from that very particular lilting jangly sound, tho I do like it.

Yup, more angular I guess we could call it.

Very cool - thanks.