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Naturalust
...I mean how much true feeling is even possible when you are a junkie with unlimited resources to maintain your habit? Just sayin....

You call outrage at an honest question asked with respect and integrity, and then you posit this.

.....

Olly.

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Naturalust
Thanks for all the insights into British mentality, I've always been a bit fascinated with the Brits, musically, historically and sociologically they provide a deep well of interesting fodder, to say nothing their amazingly cool accents.

As far as Keith's coping mechanisms back in 1976, I think it's pretty safe to say his feelings were thoroughly padded in a haze of heroin and that tragic event probably contributed to his commitment to stay in the bubble. It's nice to think the channeling of his grief was so well accomplished by simply playing a show after he received the news but to be frank I think the drugs were his true coping mechanism at that time. I mean how much true feeling is even possible when you are a junkie with unlimited resources to maintain your habit? Just sayin....

And here's the rest of that post to make the above out-of-context quote far less outrageous-sounding IMO...

"I hope you didn't record any of this""No I didn't"

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Olly

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Naturalust
...I mean how much true feeling is even possible when you are a junkie with unlimited resources to maintain your habit? Just sayin....

You call outrage at an honest question asked with respect and integrity, and then you posit this.

Truly not the same thing Olly. I think Keith's heroin addiction is pretty safe territory actually. Not only has he openly spoken about it many, many times, it is/was a huge part of his bad boy elegantly wasted image. But more to the point it is almost something he is proud to relate and even he brings it up on ocassion. He certainly doesn't seem to have many regrets about it these days and it's a very different thing, imo, than asking Keith about the death of his son, which he probably regrets very much. People almost expect Keith to be asked about his relationship with drugs, no worries, he seems to love to talk about it!

To say nothing of the difference in talking generalities about the effects of heroin on one's ability to feel and asking Keith a question about the most painful event in his life. What's more strange to me is that someone can actually talk about such a question using words like honest, respectful and integrity. But I'm sorry you were truly offended by the question I posed.

I also think it was applicable to the discussion, I've seen people addicted to heroin and, imo, it s probably one of the most feeling killing drugs on the planet, and since we were talking about coping with grief, yeah that was probably Keith's secret weapon..

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Naturalust

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Olly

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Naturalust
...I mean how much true feeling is even possible when you are a junkie with unlimited resources to maintain your habit? Just sayin....

You call outrage at an honest question asked with respect and integrity, and then you posit this.

Truly not the same thing Olly. I think Keith's heroin addiction is pretty safe territory actually. Not only has he openly spoken about it many, many times, it is/was a huge part of his bad boy elegantly wasted image. But more to the point it is almost something he is proud to relate and even he brings it up on ocassion. He certainly doesn't seem to have many regrets about it these days and it's a very different thing, imo, than asking Keith about the death of his son, which he probably regrets very much. People almost expect Keith to be asked about his relationship with drugs, no worries, he seems to love to talk about it!

To say nothing of the difference in talking generalities about the effects of heroin on one's ability to feel and asking Keith a question about the most painful event in his life. What's more strange to me is that someone can actually talk about such a question using words like honest, respectful and integrity. But I'm sorry you were truly offended by the question I posed.

I also think it was applicable to the discussion, I've seen people addicted to heroin and, imo, it s probably one of the most feeling killing drugs on the planet, and since we were talking about coping with grief, yeah that was probably Keith's secret weapon..

Keith has basically said himself all the things Naturalist says above. There's nothing controversial in Naturalist's post.

Naturalist does have a tendency to make it sound like he thinks he knows what other people think ("We can be sure that Keith...", "Mick certainly was not trying to..." etc.), but once you get used to it and take it with a grain of salt, it's not that big a deal.

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Turner68

Naturalist does have a tendency to make it sound like he thinks he knows what other people think ("We can be sure that Keith...", "Mick certainly was not trying to..." etc.), but once you get used to it and take it with a grain of salt, it's not that big a deal.

Who's Naturalist? Got to look for the "imo" qualifiers and words like "likely" and "probably" Turner, I'm pretty generous with them. I'm actually happy for you to point out when I cross the line in actually sounding like I know for certain what other people think, I don't want to be that guy. lol

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Naturalust

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Turner68

Naturalist does have a tendency to make it sound like he thinks he knows what other people think ("We can be sure that Keith...", "Mick certainly was not trying to..." etc.), but once you get used to it and take it with a grain of salt, it's not that big a deal.

Who's Naturalist? Got to look for the "imo" qualifiers and words like "likely" and "probably" Turner, I'm pretty generous with them. I'm actually happy for you to point out when I cross the line in actually sounding like I know for certain what other people think, I don't want to be that guy. lol

lol no you never sound like you know for certain, you sound like you "probably" "almost certainly" and "likely" know what people were thinking 40 years ago about intimate matters like their relationship with their children, their lovers, and their bandmates.

i was trying to stick up for you, it's just a quirk you have that one has to get used to.

NL, I agree with Olly, in that I don't think it is a safe topic at all, sorry, from what Keith has said and hasn't said on it.


Also, thanks to those who pointed out there are other topics that are very sensitive that weren't covered.

~"Love is Strong"~

well angee of course I respect your opinion, thanks for giving it.

But I am surprised you feel that way. I'm not sure Olly actually feels the topic isn't safe, he never really said actually, but he just wanted to point out that he felt I was being contradictory or hypocritical in my postings about those two issues, As I explained, I see a big difference between the two so I don't.

As far as discussing them on iorr, there have been many such heroin and other drug discussions relating to the Keith and the Stones here in the past, entire threads devoted to it, it comes up often in fact. Where as discussion of things like L'wrens death and Keith's son's death seem to be off limits, which I agree with. A single thread about Tara was short lived as most people realized it was in bad taste. Bornulf shut the L'wen down promptly when it surfaced.

Anyway I didn't mean to turn into the friggin morality police here, I have a hard enough time keeping myself in line! lol

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Naturalust
...I'm sorry you were truly offended by the question I posed...

No offense taken.

I am very interested in the differences between British and American perspectives on the issues that have arisen, especially as I have never been to America to observe the culture and people.

Whilst a student, my university attracted a number of visiting scholars from US universities, some of whom I got to know well during their residency. One in particular comes to mind: born and raised in California and educated in Washington, he possessed a number of traits that set him apart from his British contemporaries. He had an unsurpassable thirst for knowledge (not something in short supply at the institution), an unwavering optimism and, to his detriment on more than one occassion over the course of his time in England, a naivety as to the ways of the world beyond academia.

.....

Olly.

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Turner68
I was trying to stick up for you, it's just a quirk you have that one has to get used to.

Well thank you then Turner, hope you didn't have to stick yer neck out too far! lol Speculation and opinions about this band are the lifeblood of this board, imo. Luckily they have given us 50+ years of music quotes and interviews to base our thoughts on.

It is not polite to ask a question of your guest which will make them enormously uncomfortable and bring them to grief. Its not tactful. I don't care if you are in England, America, or any other country.

By asking such questions, the interviewer is creating "entertainment" of a tragedy that is personal and therefore tasteless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-29 02:56 by tumbled.

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Olly
I am very interested in the differences between British and American perspectives on the issues that have arisen, especially as I have never been to America to observe the culture and people.

Just want to make it clear that Naturalust does not speak for myself or all Americans (at least all the Americans that I know).
And no offense to Naturalust, but I think he might be over-reacting and/or maybe being a bit hypersensitive to the subject.
That could be for a number of reasons - upbringing, personal beliefs, etc., but that's really none of my business,
and in no way am I criticizing his stance on the subject. Just making an observation.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-29 03:20 by Hairball.

Olly, come on over sometime. You'd be most welcome, as Americans, in general, love all things British. We never really got over losing our King.

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tumbled
It is not polite to ask a question of your guest which will make them enormously uncomfortable and bring them to grief. Its not tactful. I don't care if you are in England, America, or any other country.
.....

Of course. However,it is also entirely his choice to decline to answer if he doesn't like it. He isn't a child, it's up to him what he answers, and people all the time refuse to answer questions the press ask them. Indeed, Keith is a master at deflecting questions.

Olly, that American you were describing sounds something like me, at least a while back.

Hairball, thanks for that, had to be said, on Americans. Good points all.

NL, you lost me on that one, I'm not referring to what has or has not been discussed on IORR.
That might be a piece of some puzzles, but not this one, not for me. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
I meant topics that one poster listed that the interviewer could have brought up.

Right, I am surprised at your attitudes on this, just as you are surprised at mine, given what we know of the other,
not all that much, apparently. Differences in background, professions, experiences, temperaments are likely involved.
Here's where realtime contact could probably help.

~"Love is Strong"~



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-29 06:38 by angee.

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Hairball

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Olly
I am very interested in the differences between British and American perspectives on the issues that have arisen, especially as I have never been to America to observe the culture and people.

Just want to make it clear that Naturalust does not speak for myself or all Americans (at least all the Americans that I know).
And no offense to Naturalust, but I think he might be over-reacting and/or maybe being a bit hypersensitive to the subject.
That could be for a number of reasons - upbringing, personal beliefs, etc., but that's really none of my business,
and in no way am I criticizing his stance on the subject. Just making an observation.

No offense taken Hairball, certainly didn't meant to imply I spoke for anyone but myself, not even for all the Americans I know actually..... but I thankfully know enough who would probably agree that asking about such things is impolite at best and down right rude at worst. Hard to imagine it is a cultural thing, but who knows?

I actually didn't mean to make such as issue over it, seemed like just plain common sense and good manners to me. But I spend absolutely no time reading tabloids, watching mainstream tragedy and fear based news and media outlets or watching entertainment outlets that make a living with such questions so I'm not very desensitized. I guess there is probably a level of complacency and general acceptance of publicly digging into peoples pain and suffering that I haven't bought in to. No worries, to each their own, I'm tolerant of others values and opinions, just don't ask me about the loss of my last dog in a public event because I'm probably not going to appreciate it and will probably fall to pieces, I guess much to everyone's delight.

...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-29 13:34 by angee.

Well Naturalist, you might be interested in this.
Around 2007 your mate Kirsty interviewed musician and druggie Pete Doherty for the BBC2 Newsnight T V programme.
During the interview she startles dear Pete by telling him shes spoken to his Mum the day before the interview.
'Oh really." replies Pete. And there is another suprise in the tank: Kirsty has a letter from Pete's Mum, which she reads out in full. His reaction, knowing looks into the camera and body language speak volumes.

At least Kirsty didnt bring up todgergate in what I thought was a very good programme. I thought Keiths choices good but predictable. I had wondered if, in a nod to his "brother", we might get, say Memo from Turner which I think is an excellent Mick performances. Also, an early recording of Marguerita, perhaps, which is now do much part of Keiths story.

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Naturalust

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Hairball

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Olly
I am very interested in the differences between British and American perspectives on the issues that have arisen, especially as I have never been to America to observe the culture and people.

Just want to make it clear that Naturalust does not speak for myself or all Americans (at least all the Americans that I know).
And no offense to Naturalust, but I think he might be over-reacting and/or maybe being a bit hypersensitive to the subject.
That could be for a number of reasons - upbringing, personal beliefs, etc., but that's really none of my business,
and in no way am I criticizing his stance on the subject. Just making an observation.

No offense taken Hairball, certainly didn't meant to imply I spoke for anyone but myself, not even for all the Americans I know actually..... but I thankfully know enough who would probably agree that asking about such things is impolite at best and down right rude at worst. Hard to imagine it is a cultural thing, but who knows?

I actually didn't mean to make such as issue over it, seemed like just plain common sense and good manners to me. But I spend absolutely no time reading tabloids, watching mainstream tragedy and fear based news and media outlets or watching entertainment outlets that make a living with such questions so I'm not very desensitized. I guess there is probably a level of complacency and general acceptance of publicly digging into peoples pain and suffering that I haven't bought in to. No worries, to each their own, I'm tolerant of others values and opinions, just don't ask me about the loss of my last dog in a public event because I'm probably not going to appreciate it and will probably fall to pieces, I guess much to everyone's delight.

What seems like "just plain common sense and good manners" to you, might seem a bit "goody two shoes" to others - and that's not meant as an insult.
The shocked and mortified reaction towards the situation just might be seen as overblown about something that doesn't quite justify that reaction. And I wouldn't say it's all about being desensitized or having a level of complacency from watching or listening to all the dreck on tv as you insinuate (does anyone pay attention to that crap), although perhaps for some it is - especially for the younger generation. It's probably more about one's upbringing, personal experiences, and a whole lot of other reasons that could affect and define one's values regarding certain situations. After all, the U.S. is a gigantic country, from east to west and north to south, with 50 states (kind of like micro-climates) where there are differences in attitudes and values around every corner. Even in California alone there's the big cities, the country towns, the north, and the south, and everything in between - not everyone has the same cultural or personal values and thinks alike. Some happen to be harder and tougher than others - and alot of that has to do with the 'climate' in which they live.

Anyways, don't mean to veer too far off-topic...where was I?

The fact is the BBC show with Keith is a British institution, and as has been mentioned several times here there's a slim chance he went in their without knowing firsthand what was about to be served to him. From the records played, to the questions asked - he was prepared and responded accordingly. As for me, I thought it was a great show through and through and wouldn't have changed a thing, except for extending it to about 5 hours to hear more about his desert island picks, and the ups and downs of his life - the good, the bad, and the ugly.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-29 18:38 by Hairball.

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jlowe
...Around 2007 your mate Kirsty interviewed musician and druggie Pete Doherty for the BBC2 Newsnight T V programme...

Different Kirsty: Wark as opposed to Young.

.....

Olly.

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jlowe
Well Naturalist, you might be interested in this.
Around 2007 your mate Kirsty interviewed musician and druggie Pete Doherty for the BBC2 Newsnight T V programme.
During the interview she startles dear Pete by telling him shes spoken to his Mum the day before the interview.
'Oh really." replies Pete. And there is another suprise in the tank: Kirsty has a letter from Pete's Mum, which she reads out in full. His reaction, knowing looks into the camera and body language speak volumes.

That makes me think it's perhaps just Kirsty's trademark to bring up a sensitive or controversial subject in each interview she does, doesn't sound like that part of the Pete interview was scripted. I probably wouldn't have enjoyed watching him squirm through that one either. But I understand the potential marketing value of a journalist doing this, of course there are loads of people who are fascinated with the dirt and deeply emotional stuff. Human nature includes a strong component of interest in such things, I'm not completely immune myself. Kirsty is likely no different than Oprah Winfrey or a thousand other journalists who take such liberties as a matter of course, not sure why I expected different, possibly because my (obviously ignorant) expectations that the show was based on purely musical elements.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the program overall and it's probably a bit unfair to keep on the issue because it really wasn't that big of a deal. But now I'm actually more interested to find myself having to defend my position and possibly just trying to understand what Kirsty's motivations were and what she could possibly expect from Keith with a question like that (besides ratings). I mean what is Keith going to say .."Naw, that happened a long time ago, didn't really know the kid yet, I'm over it dear, I'm as emotionally tough as I am physically tough man, I can take anything that life throws at me darlin'". No obviously this was staged to get a deeply emotional response from Keith, of course he is going to be terribly sad just thinking about and relating that story. What thrill or new information from the experience of hearing it did people get? Seeing a softer and vulnerable Keith in order to humanize him? Deep emotional content that made them feel something in their own lives like watching a sad movie? A few tears from sharing Keith pain with him? A closer connection to Keith from the sharing? A better understanding of Keith in learning how terribly long he has carried this grief? I'm guessing there was a little of all of that.

It's probably pretty obvious that I consider things like loss of a child and the feelings and details of such events too personal to be discussed on a public program or forum for that matter. If Keith wants to bring it up fine, but it should be off limits for anyone else except perhaps Anita, imo.

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Naturalust
That makes me think it's perhaps just Kirsty's trademark to bring up a sensitive or controversial subject in each interview she does...

I repeat: two different journalists named Kirsty are being referenced here: Young and Wark.

.....

Olly.

It WAS Kirsty Walk.
In fact reference to the interview is made in Jacqueline Doherty's book, My Prodigal Son.
She actually states that (her words) Kirsty was very gentle with her son.
So no complaints there.

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jlowe
It WAS Kirsty Walk.
In fact reference to the interview is made in Jacqueline Doherty's book, My Prodigal Son.
She actually states that (her words) Kirsty was very gentle with her son.
So no complaints there.

DID is presented by Kirsty Young.

Quite right, my mistake....too many Kirsties round here.
Actually both are well respected in their field and are certainly NOT out for ratings as such. As has been said, DID runs to an established formula and may inevitably touch on the sadder periods of the guests life.

I think Macca has been on the programme and it would not suprise me if the subject of his Mothers death, when Paul was 14, or of course Linda's did not get a mention.
Of course this would have been okd by Macca prior to the recording.

I cannot imagine its a cultural US/UK difference , the States have been more open about therapy and counselling compared to the more repressed British stereotype?
However, there has been an emerging trend in the last decade for the media to discuss and produce items on sensitive issues eg cot deaths which would have been ignored at one time. Likewise cancer and sexual orientation or mental health and other sensitive subjects which at one time was allmost taboo.
Not sensationalist or for the ratings when handled properly.

I may disagree about the ratings part, can't be underestimated in the competitive fields of radio and TV, imo. But I agree the notion of what is acceptable has really gone through a significant shift in the last couple decades here in America. I went without TV for 20 years and recently got one along with the prerequisite hundreds of cable channels. I had more than a few WTF moments realizing that times had indeed changed. Not that I am anywhere near a proponent of puritan values or anything, it was just a shock to see how things had changed in my absence. Between the lame reality shows, terribly biased news broadcasts and 10 minute long commercial breaks I was generally less than impressed.

Attitudes will vary vastly across America as well, I imagine.

Whereabouts in America are you from, Naturalust?

.....

Olly.

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Naturalust
I may disagree about the ratings part, can't be underestimated in the competitive fields of radio and TV, imo. But I agree the notion of what is acceptable has really gone through a significant shift in the last couple decades here in America. I went without TV for 20 years and recently got one along with the prerequisite hundreds of cable channels. I had more than a few WTF moments realizing that times had indeed changed. Not that I am anywhere near a proponent of puritan values or anything, it was just a shock to see how things had changed in my absence. Between the lame reality shows, terribly biased news broadcasts and 10 minute long commercial breaks I was generally less than impressed.

have you considered ditching your TV again? I haven't had one for 4 years and love it. we stream netflix and HBO over the internet when we want to watch a drama or a comedy, and most live events are now available on the internet too. TV will be completely obsolete in 5 years.

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Turner68
have you considered ditching your TV again? I haven't had one for 4 years and love it. we stream netflix and HBO over the internet when we want to watch a drama or a comedy, and most live events are now available on the internet too. TV will be completely obsolete in 5 years.

So it's the medium rather than the content that you avoid.

.....

Olly.

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Olly

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Turner68
have you considered ditching your TV again? I haven't had one for 4 years and love it. we stream netflix and HBO over the internet when we want to watch a drama or a comedy, and most live events are now available on the internet too. TV will be completely obsolete in 5 years.

So it's the medium rather than the content that you avoid.

Not at all. What are you talking about? There are very few dramas and comedies on TV.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-29 23:25 by Turner68.