keith's aversion to current trends and Mick's interest in them..

a real source of contention then, and probably now..

thanks for that background, Rocky D.

Damn, Rocky, that's some shit there.

I do find the agreement between Mick and Keith a bit odd considering the supposed crap that Mick stank up about Keith having 3 tracks on the LP.

Mick and Keith met at his place in Martha's Vineyard? I never knew he had a place there. And weren't they supposedly in Barbados in August recording demos at the usual place they'd worked since STEEL WHEELS demos? It says "unconfirmed" so who knows. It's not mentioned elsewhere.

Mick's deal with wanting to do a song his way and everyone agreeing on it, that would mean, as an example, doing Anybody Seen My Baby? his way and then Keith's way and then their way - that's what they agreed on.

Sounds like that didn't happen... quite that way, anyway.

Keith said this, which kind of explains a lot...

We began writing this album around November), down in (Greenwich) Village (in New York City), in a little demo studio called Dangerous Music. I wanted to cut the whole album there, it was sounding so good, but it was a bit too small for everybody. Mick and I started Low Down there and Anybody Seen My Baby?, Already Over You, (Always) Suffering and Any Way You Look at It. We got 5 or 6 tracks together in a week there...

That's how they started the album out!!?? Already Over You, (Always) Suffering and Any Way You Look at It?

WTF!!!!????

Don Was (1997): How Can I Stop in June

How Can I Stop was the last thing recorded for the album. There was a car waiting for Charlie outside the studio and it took him to the airport immediately after we finished that take. Charlie did this really intense flourish with Wayne (Shorter) at the end that was almost like his farewell to the record. Then he got up and left and went back to England. It was maybe 5:30 in the morning and it was a really poignant moment that got captured. As for the song itself, it's the most radical thing on the album. Keith really wrote a sophisticated piece of music.

I love this album. The best post 1981 album, very inventive and original.

Flip the Switch - nice rocker with a lot of swing
Anybody Seen My Baby? - popesque stones at their best
Low Down - good rocker
Already Over Me - nice, intimate ballad
Gunface - underrated track. I was surprised they never played it live, because when the album came out I thought it would be killer live
You Don't Have to Mean It - it's always nice when Richards goes reggae, but nothing great
Out of Control - great track, but live is waaay better
Saint of Me - great
Might As Well Get Juiced - nice experiment
Always Suffering - ok
Too Tight - cool, but filler
Thief in the Night & How Can I Stop - the best coda on Rolling Stones record. Very intense yet beautiful

I was told Keith had a place rented in Martha's Vineyard. I would suspect it was Turks & Caicos, though which isn't exactly just around the corner so who knows?

The stink about three vocals was partly because there's a version of "Thief in the Night" with Mick on vocals. When Don Was agreed it suited Keith's voice better, Mick wasn't expecting it would lead to three lead vocals.

There's always a lot that is questionable. I know for a fact that Mick did a session with Babyface in 1996 when everyone thought he was making a solo album. That would likely mean "Already Over Me" was not written late in the year. I can't verify that Clapton played on the track Mick laid down with Babyface earlier in the year. If so, it couldn't have been a demo. Who pays Clapton to play on their demos? Allegedly, that was the only track radically rearranged when the Stones (or rather Charlie) couldn't get the groove Babyface wanted and Mick sided with Keith that it wasn't working. The other tracks tried different ways were the same arrangements, but letting different producers try their hands at cutting or simply mixing (Don Was, Dust Brothers, Danny Saber). The Biz Markie sample replaced a solo that wasn't working. They tried both guitar and keyboard solos and at a loss to make it work, The Dust Brothers threw in an "old school" sample which Mick liked but Don Was felt brought the song's groove to a crashing halt. From my best guess from multiple sources, Mick and Keith tried hard to get along with one another and be supportive. Some of the remarks about the sessions I chalk up to publicity. For instance, I've heard "How Can I Stop" with Wayne Shorter is the same track (albeit with different lyrics) that was earmarked for Sonny Rollins during the VOODOO LOUNGE sessions. Sonny Rollins' schedule didn't synch up and the track was put aside and labeled "Sonny" (not the song's title, just a reminder they wanted a jazz saxophone solo coda). Who knows? It wouldn't appear "Sonny" ever made it out to any of the box sets that Vigotone released courtesy of Ronnie's stepson.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 19:37 by Rocky Dijon.

Especially with what all has been said about How Can I Stop being the last track recorded for BRIDGES. Not exactly a VOODOO leftover indeed. And yeah, true that is would've most likely emerged on those VOODOO boots since, from what I know of anyway, everything did.

Nice info, Rocky

Keith supposedly met Babyface before Kenneth's first session day, so Keith might have been involved in the early Already Over Me version as well?

Or did Babyface come back to work on B2B later?

One think clear about this record is that they were trying out new ways of making a Stones record. I think the results were pretty mixed. It's hard to find a good balance of expectations concerning them finding new and innovative ways to record and produce music and sticking to a more retro approach which was so successful on their best output from 1968-1973.

I don't rate the record any where near their best work, just not enough great songs and as Dandie points out something uneven about the album. While it has a couple great tunes on it, it's hard to listen to the whole thing in one sitting.

Like better than VL or B Bang but still not a great work. Suffers from same disjointed track order as the aforesaid, too much filler, and the post 1980 mediocre song writing, especially lyrically. As with VL and B Band, rarely, if ever listen to this one. Again, far too many better listening options in the Stones library to spend time on BTB.

As a side, and as a result of the Album Talk of late for the post TY albums, during a long drive I listened to VL, BTB and B Bang from start to finish for the first time in many years. AAAHHHH! While a few winners (perhaps enough for one decent 10 song album), largely a lot of "can't wait til the next song" thoughts.

Upon completion, I quickly put on LIB to cleanse the pallet. I realize times change but in many ways it was hard to believe this is the same band that gave us such amazing 64-80 music. Seems like a complete lack of effort, or sadly, burnout. Don't mean to be overly harsh as I am a hard core fan overall and obviously prefer the early-mid period music, sound, song writing, etc., but what a dramatically different listening experience...........

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Naturalust
One think clear about this record is that they were trying out new ways of making a Stones record. I think the results were pretty mixed.

Take a lump of crap like Might As Well Get Juiced.

That blows my mind. Really? Charlie's drums are built up from samples? OK so... so what. Goddamn - it sounds like a poorly recorded B-side. There's NOTHING innovative about it. It sounds like the Stones snoring in a recording studio. Keith plays guitar on it because... he was told to play like himself. So he... snores on it.

It's a brilliant mistake. A fantastic wreck.

At least Saint Of Me is tuneful. But even that could've been done straight as opposed to samples etc. It's a lot of doing over something that could've just been done normally anyway and probably - most likely - sounded better.

Beck, he stuck with the wack. The Stones? They used it for shading in things and the shading sucks.

Dandy, allegedly Babyface did a session with Mick shortly after the March 1996 session that Dallas Austin produced in Atlanta. He then was called back to work with the Stones later (early 1997 I think).

Gaslight (to use your current handle), I know what you mean about thinking we got everything from Vigotone, but the track "Sonny" isn't among them and that was close to being an album contender still quite late in the day. Now maybe it was the last track finished for BRIDGES as Don Was states, but I could see "Sonny" being a false title for a jazz track lacking a Sonny Rollins-type coda and then for the next sessions they re-cut the track with Wayne Shorter instead. Given how many months were spent on VOODOO LOUNGE in 1993-1994, there's no way we have everything even though more of those sessions are documented than many albums for bootleg collectors.

As for "Juiced," again I've heard different in this case a snippet with my own ears. Prior to the album's release I heard a snippet of "Juiced" as cut with Don Was and Ed Cherney. It sounded more like "The Storm" or "Back of My Hand." It lacked the fake techno overdubs and processed drum sound that The Dust Brothers sprinkled liberally all over the final version. As for the story of a drum track built up in the studio, that was allegedly "Anybody Seen My Baby." Some of that one sounds artificial to my ears. I have heard the story that Don Was tells that it was cut with Charlie playing along to a Dr. Dre record and then the Dust Brothers took that track and sampled it to build the beats. While that's possible at other times on "Anybody Seen My Baby" Charlie sounds just like Charlie. That one is a bit of a Frankenstein monster to me.

For what it's worth, there's also supposed to be a version of "You Don't Have To Mean It" that isn't ska, but sounds like a cousin of "Sweethearts Together." Strange times.

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Rocky Dijon
Dandy, allegedly Babyface did a session with Mick shortly after the March 1996 session that Dallas Austin produced in Atlanta. He then was called back to work with the Stones later (early 1997 I think).

Gaslight (to use your current handle), I know what you mean about thinking we got everything from Vigotone, but the track "Sonny" isn't among them and that was close to being an album contender still quite late in the day. Now maybe it was the last track finished for BRIDGES as Don Was states, but I could see "Sonny" being a false title for a jazz track lacking a Sonny Rollins-type coda and then for the next sessions they re-cut the track with Wayne Shorter instead. Given how many months were spent on VOODOO LOUNGE in 1993-1994, there's no way we have everything even though more of those sessions are documented than many albums for bootleg collectors.

As for "Juiced," again I've heard different in this case a snippet with my own ears. Prior to the album's release I heard a snippet of "Juiced" as cut with Don Was and Ed Cherney. It sounded more like "The Storm" or "Back of My Hand." It lacked the fake techno overdubs and processed drum sound that The Dust Brothers sprinkled liberally all over the final version. As for the story of a drum track built up in the studio, that was allegedly "Anybody Seen My Baby." Some of that one sounds artificial to my ears. I have heard the story that Don Was tells that it was cut with Charlie playing along to a Dr. Dre record and then the Dust Brothers took that track and sampled it to build the beats. While that's possible at other times on "Anybody Seen My Baby" Charlie sounds just like Charlie. That one is a bit of a Frankenstein monster to me.

For what it's worth, there's also supposed to be a version of "You Don't Have To Mean It" that isn't ska, but sounds like a cousin of "Sweethearts Together." Strange times.

Oh yeah man your back, i really missed you, were you been dude ?

Thanks, Rocky. Very interesting!

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keefriffhards

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Rocky Dijon
Dandy, allegedly Babyface did a session with Mick shortly after the March 1996 session that Dallas Austin produced in Atlanta. He then was called back to work with the Stones later (early 1997 I think).

Gaslight (to use your current handle), I know what you mean about thinking we got everything from Vigotone, but the track "Sonny" isn't among them and that was close to being an album contender still quite late in the day. Now maybe it was the last track finished for BRIDGES as Don Was states, but I could see "Sonny" being a false title for a jazz track lacking a Sonny Rollins-type coda and then for the next sessions they re-cut the track with Wayne Shorter instead. Given how many months were spent on VOODOO LOUNGE in 1993-1994, there's no way we have everything even though more of those sessions are documented than many albums for bootleg collectors.

As for "Juiced," again I've heard different in this case a snippet with my own ears. Prior to the album's release I heard a snippet of "Juiced" as cut with Don Was and Ed Cherney. It sounded more like "The Storm" or "Back of My Hand." It lacked the fake techno overdubs and processed drum sound that The Dust Brothers sprinkled liberally all over the final version. As for the story of a drum track built up in the studio, that was allegedly "Anybody Seen My Baby." Some of that one sounds artificial to my ears. I have heard the story that Don Was tells that it was cut with Charlie playing along to a Dr. Dre record and then the Dust Brothers took that track and sampled it to build the beats. While that's possible at other times on "Anybody Seen My Baby" Charlie sounds just like Charlie. That one is a bit of a Frankenstein monster to me.

For what it's worth, there's also supposed to be a version of "You Don't Have To Mean It" that isn't ska, but sounds like a cousin of "Sweethearts Together." Strange times.

Oh yeah man your back, i really missed you, were you been dude ?

same here!

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Dandy, allegedly Babyface did a session with Mick shortly after the March 1996 session that Dallas Austin produced in Atlanta. He then was called back to work with the Stones later (early 1997 I think).

Gaslight (to use your current handle), I know what you mean about thinking we got everything from Vigotone, but the track "Sonny" isn't among them and that was close to being an album contender still quite late in the day. Now maybe it was the last track finished for BRIDGES as Don Was states, but I could see "Sonny" being a false title for a jazz track lacking a Sonny Rollins-type coda and then for the next sessions they re-cut the track with Wayne Shorter instead. Given how many months were spent on VOODOO LOUNGE in 1993-1994, there's no way we have everything even though more of those sessions are documented than many albums for bootleg collectors.



As for "Juiced," again I've heard different in this case a snippet with my own ears. Prior to the album's release I heard a snippet of "Juiced" as cut with Don Was and Ed Cherney. It sounded more like "The Storm" or "Back of My Hand." It lacked the fake techno overdubs and processed drum sound that The Dust Brothers sprinkled liberally all over the final version. As for the story of a drum track built up in the studio, that was allegedly "Anybody Seen My Baby." Some of that one sounds artificial to my ears. I have heard the story that Don Was tells that it was cut with Charlie playing along to a Dr. Dre record and then the Dust Brothers took that track and sampled it to build the beats. While that's possible at other times on "Anybody Seen My Baby" Charlie sounds just like Charlie. That one is a bit of a Frankenstein monster to me.

For what it's worth, there's also supposed to be a version of "You Don't Have To Mean It" that isn't ska, but sounds like a cousin of "Sweethearts Together." Strange times.

I remember Keith saying about the producer Babyface, that if you work with Mick Jagger your going to look like @#$%& face by the end. Look at me lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-16 20:41 by keefriffhards.

Another great one!

Start w/ the best:

Flip the Switch
Anybody Seen My Baby?
Low Down
Already Over Me
Gunface
Saint of Me
Might As Well Get Juiced

Each great on their own way. I love Low Down, to me the chorus is great, I love the buildup. Possibly my favorite is Gunface. Just a fantastic piece of music, and to me, great lyrics.

Another great one, You Don't Have to Mean It. Wonderful, Keith and reggae, you can't go wrong there!

Next are the ones I like a lot, just not as much as those above...

Out of Control
Always Suffering
Too Tight

I love the slow/fast change in OOC, Always Suffering has a great grove with great vocals. Speaking of vocals, it doesn't get better than Mick on Too Tight!

Last, and least ...

Thief in the Night
How Can I Stop

Each good on their own, but I think it just drags too long at the end of the album.

I love this album!

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alimente
Easily their best album since Steel Wheels, which in turn is easily their best since Tattoo You.

Can't understand the dislike for "Too Tight" - a dirty little uptempo rocker with a melodic quality that's simply missing on, let's say, Rough Justice, Oh No Not You Again, You Got Me Rocking, Where The Boys Go and the like. Pure Stones!

Well, of the ones you mention, I only like "You Got Me Rocking", and that mainly because it works so well live.

I'm surprised at the dislike from some for 'Gunface', one of two great tracks on the album; the other one being 'Thief in the Night'.

.....

Olly.

Bad first single set the tone. A lot of fillers on this album. Out of Control is a monster when played live!

Thief In The Night is meandering endlessly without any direction, it is treading water from start to finish. I wonder how this could be great. Too many background vocals, too many instruments, too much whining, too much of everything. Plus it is monotonous, in a word: boring.

As I appreciate their will to experiment, it only ends up as a decent album.
Again the length of the album is the main factor, and a little editing would have made it a more focused release. While I almost hate "Gunface" and "Might As Well Get Juiced", they are examples of trying something different. "Lowdown", "Always Suffering" and "Too Tight" are pure fillers, and shouldn't have made the cut. In my perfect world, the album should have looked like this:

Side 1:
Flip The Switch
Anybody Seen My Baby
Gunface
You Don't Have To Mean It
Out Of Control

Side 2:
Saint Of Me
Already Over Me
Might As Well Get Juiced
Theif In The Night
How Can I Stop

I suffered enough thru this album already

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Blueranger
Side 1:
Flip The Switch
Anybody Seen My Baby
Gunface
You Don't Have To Mean It
Out Of Control

Side 2:
Saint Of Me
Already Over Me
Might As Well Get Juiced
Theif In The Night
How Can I Stop

Looks Good!

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Olly
I'm surprised at the dislike from some for 'Gunface', one of two great tracks on the album; the other one being 'Thief in the Night'.

The "melody", Mick's guitar sound and the too obvious, desperate try of sounding current and modern might be some of the reasons?

Some really interesting stuff posted on here, cheers guys.
IMO the majority of the tracks work well and make for the best post Undercover album.
Juiced could have been so much better, would love to hear some alternate versions.
The closing two are up there with their best ever.

Only 3 weak (boring) songs for me and that's Keith numbers.

I know tomatoes will be thrown at me....but...I think that Might As Well Get Juiced is one of the best efforts in Stones career in honestly being creative, risky and loyal to the roots. Blues is nowadays an old hat but ...who cares. When Keith talks about "the band wants to know how far they can reach" this song is a good example (and unique).

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Rocky Dijon
Dandy, allegedly Babyface did a session with Mick shortly after the March 1996 session that Dallas Austin produced in Atlanta. He then was called back to work with the Stones later (early 1997 I think).

Gaslight (to use your current handle), I know what you mean about thinking we got everything from Vigotone, but the track "Sonny" isn't among them and that was close to being an album contender still quite late in the day. Now maybe it was the last track finished for BRIDGES as Don Was states, but I could see "Sonny" being a false title for a jazz track lacking a Sonny Rollins-type coda and then for the next sessions they re-cut the track with Wayne Shorter instead. Given how many months were spent on VOODOO LOUNGE in 1993-1994, there's no way we have everything even though more of those sessions are documented than many albums for bootleg collectors.

As for "Juiced," again I've heard different in this case a snippet with my own ears. Prior to the album's release I heard a snippet of "Juiced" as cut with Don Was and Ed Cherney. It sounded more like "The Storm" or "Back of My Hand." It lacked the fake techno overdubs and processed drum sound that The Dust Brothers sprinkled liberally all over the final version. As for the story of a drum track built up in the studio, that was allegedly "Anybody Seen My Baby." Some of that one sounds artificial to my ears. I have heard the story that Don Was tells that it was cut with Charlie playing along to a Dr. Dre record and then the Dust Brothers took that track and sampled it to build the beats. While that's possible at other times on "Anybody Seen My Baby" Charlie sounds just like Charlie. That one is a bit of a Frankenstein monster to me.

For what it's worth, there's also supposed to be a version of "You Don't Have To Mean It" that isn't ska, but sounds like a cousin of "Sweethearts Together." Strange times.

What I wasn't clear about was How Can I Stop is clearly from the BRIDGES sessions (production and sound wise). The track you talk about, that makes sense, that they did it again for BRIDGES.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-17 16:46 by GasLightStreet.

Somewhere during the first leg of the US 1997 tour Keith says this... little does he know that what he's talking about is about to come true (I do recall Mick talking about The Beach Boys but somehow I missed Keith's comment):

Nobody in the band ever talks about (the band's longevity) amongst themselves or puts their finger on it. I think some of it is just what you do, and if you don't do it, you go nuts, and the other is how far can it go, you know. We still feel we're getting better and we have things to offer you know, and we ain't The Beach Boys, some nostalgia band, you know what I mean. There's plenty of nostalgia, obviously, after all these years involved, but I mean we don't rely on it alone. I mean our main joy is to make new songs - nostalgia (laughs) in a way it's ah... and nobody wants to get off the bus, because it's still going, you know. It's very difficult, you hurt yourself getting off buses when they're moving. Do not alight while moving.

Flip the Switch ==> B
Anybody Seen My Baby? ==> D
Low Down ==> C
Already Over Me ==> C
Gunface ==> C
You Don't Have to Mean It ==> F
Out of Control ==> B
Saint of Me ==> B
Might As Well Get Juiced ==> D
Always Suffering ==> C
Too Tight ==> B
Thief in the Night ==> C
How Can I Stop ==> C

C

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GasLightStreet
[...]and nobody wants to get off the bus, because it's still going, you know. It's very difficult, you hurt yourself getting off buses when they're moving. Do not alight while moving.

Words of wisdom, words of wisdom!