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Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: November 15, 2021 21:08

What I referred to by "akin to", was feel and mood, not necessarily strict musical likeness (Later added: I am seldom a good judge as to musical likenesses.)

[In those respects, to me "Can You Hear the Music" and "If You Really Want to Be My Friend" are for that matter quite different, how much that I love both.]

Edit: One later added sentence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-11-15 21:19 by Witness.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: November 15, 2021 21:33

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Witness
Quote
GasLightStreet
.....

When people go on about how Continental Drift is great, they talking about the Mick solo song that precedes and postcedes the Musicians of Jajouka part? Never heard anything compelling about it.

In the first place, as I have also written elsewhere, the song is meant to be heard in relation to its middle instrumental part. That is, maybe the track is a piece of music as much as a song.

Secondly, I also find the verses attractive as such. They have got a feel and convey a mood, to me akin to "Can You Hear the Music". Apparently not to you, who from an Album talk thread also seem to appreciate that GHS-song almost as much as I do.

I think that's what's confusing. The Stones liked the Musicians of Jajouka part so much they used it for the three tours show intro but the Speed Of Light bit is waffly, really, unlike Can You Hear The Music or even If You Really Want To Be My Friend.

I find Too Much Blood to be much more interesting, especially Mick's talking, and the remixes were hilarious.

da da da da dance with a one legged woman

da da da da dance with a one legged woman

mwhaa haa haa haa

meanwhile back in the jungle

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: November 15, 2021 22:13

Maybe if they had released it in 1979 it would have been better received? It connects better with that time and vibe and those albums (SG, ER). I guess TY was the odd one out. Hard to follow that success.
And U is very different from TY. The music stage had changed a lot between the late seventies and late 1983.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: November 16, 2021 01:03

Quote
Stoneage
Maybe if they had released it in 1979 it would have been better received? It connects better with that time and vibe and those albums (SG, ER). I guess TY was the odd one out. Hard to follow that success.
And U is very different from TY. The music stage had changed a lot between the late seventies and late 1983.

So far as the reception goes, isolatedly considered, that might very well have been the case.

But, reflecting on the creation side, the Album talk thread for UNDERCOVER shows the dates for the recording sessions. How early that the songs or song ideas really were forthcoming for hypothetically earlier recording than that, I really don't know and would have to ask those who do. Besides, an earlier release of UNDERCOVER also would have needed some time period to pass after the release of EMOTIONAL RESCUE, June 1980. And would for instance the song "Undercover (of the Night)" in its final form have been thinkable earlier on?

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: November 16, 2021 01:22

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Witness
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Four Stone Walls
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GasLightStreet
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Witness
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GasLightStreet
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matxil
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HMS
I wonder if there is really anybody around who likes Mick Jagger´s "Let´s Work". I guess not even Mick likes it. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out I remember I turned to stone, as I first heard it, I simply couldn´t believe what I heard. I felt incredibly ashamed for Mick, it's by far the lowest moment of his career.eye popping smiley

I remember when it came out. I'd just recently become a Stones fan, whereas most of my friends only listened to new-wave. We were having some beers, watching MTV and then this "song" came on. A very embarrassing moment. I remember that one of my friends even said: "Oh well, it's not worse than the Stones". And what with Dirty Work that had just come out, I couldn't even blast him away with as much force as I'd've liked to.

If that doesn't sum up DIRTY WORK as being as awful as it is nothing does.

Your friend was wrong, though - Let's Work is worse than all of DIRTY WORK.

And look at the lineage - DIRTY WORK, Let's Work... Rock And A Hard Place.

Awful. DIRTY WORK makes VOODOO LOUNGE seem like EXILE ON MAIN STREET.

GasLightStreet's post on page 1 of the thread was like this. Then it is obvious what was added as new text a couple of posts before this.

I don't get that bullshit fake one above by Four Stone Walls.


What FSW was saying - but he had mistakenly replied to GLS's final remark prematurely -

is that Dirty Work is better than all of Voodoo Lounge ( mainly a turkey - which is an insult to turkeys) - and that Let's Work - the single - is better than most stuff on VL.

But ok - this is an Undercover thread.

Initially I thought it was a good to great album - but now not. Has not stood test of time. But the sessions sound good. Band working well together.

Keith didn't like the finished product.

I think he far preferred Dirty Work. As do I. It has more Life. Not still life either.


Eddy

To me there is a thread of continued and interrelated greatness through SOME GIRLS, EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER. With a better reception to UNDERCOVER, that thread could have gone on and resulted in further albums in more or less the same vein. Somehow, UNDERCOVER, in that respect like EXILE ON MAIN STREET, is one of their less easily approchable albums. Maybe that was an unforseeable fatal fact at that junction in their career with the repeated need to renew their fanbase at large, and when much of the old generations of fans had become too lazy. Possible following albums might then have been more easily approchable. It was not be, however.

Instead reduced incentives to create new music and resulting increased disagreement on music contributed to a break down of the continued thread, and DIRTY WORK came about. Later on, the band reformed from almost disbandment. But from then, following albums became separate attempts with years in between. In that way, DIRTY WORK, STEEL WHEELS (despite the great track "Continental Drift") and VOODOO LOUNGE (despite the almost great "Love Is Strong") were to constitute a slump in the recorded output by the Stones. Apparently another selection of songs among the available half-finished recorded material for VOODOO LOUNGE could have led to a better album. Later on, I think that I am not alone in regarding BRIDGES TO BABYLON as an album, verging on the semi-great, with at least some daring involved..

But I consider UNDERCOVER as THE album, when the Rolling Stones as a studio band at their last peak anew were at crossroads, but this time where the outcome was more than before partly outside their control.

I agree with most of that. I don't love Bridges, but there are a handful of great tracks on there.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: sundevil ()
Date: November 16, 2021 01:29

undercover! Yes, been wearing this out lately. 'feel on baby', 'undercover', 'too much blood', the whole album is a razor-edged treat. still sounds the same as it did on nov. 7th, 1983, but meh! it's still a nice, loud, balls-out rock n roll record. if you haven't heard it in a couple of years, or decades, take it out and put it on. you're gonna say 'yeah, this is a great stones record'.

Re: Undercover - best sounding version?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: November 16, 2021 15:30

Quote
ProfessorWolf
my main cd player is a sony cdp-55 from 1986
which i guess is kinda looked down upon by audiophiles because of its mid 80's dac however i like it but i doubt it'll be capable of sacd playback though i'm intrigued by the technology and will keep an eye out for a capable player during my thrift store hunts

but i did get cbs copies of undercover, tattoo you, and sticky fingers for $2 each a couple days ago and listening to them in comparision with my 2009 universal undercover, sticky fingers and 2021 tattoo you with the above mentioned cd player and thru audio technica ath-m50x headphones i hands down prefer the cbs even for sticky fingers which i agree does sound a bit muddy but in a way that i like and think sounds right with the music thanks for the advice next i'm gonna see if i can get a copy of satanic on one them west german cds very intrigued by what that will sound like
Generations apart

The Rolling Stones - Undercover [Rolling Stones Records-EMI CDP 7 46024 2 ]
Japan for Europe, November 7, 1983,
Toshiba pressing plant
Matrix: CDP 7 46024 2 CP35-3087-1 1A1

This is 'true first pressing' from glass master -1, father 1, mother A, stampler 1.

The Rolling Stone - Undercover [Rolling Stones Records - Universal UICY-79248]
Japan only SHM-CD, December 4, 2020. Paper-jacket edition to commemorate 30th Anniversary of the 1st visit of The Rolling Stones to Japan.
JVC pressing plant
Matrix: UICY-40072 H1T [4xUniversal logo]
SID Mastering code: IFPI L236
SID Mould code: IFPI 4011

This one is the latest edition.

Are there any differences in terms of tonality and loudness? Judge yourself. These are graphs for Track 01 - Undercover.
Original spectra


Difference spectra (RSR-EMI was used as a baseline)

Re: Undercover - best sounding version?
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: November 16, 2021 15:40

Quote
ironbelly

Are there any differences in terms of tonality and loudness?

The benefit of SACD (or Hi-Res) in general isn't tonality & loudness but more detail, more spaciousness, more transparency - with the appropriate equipment.

Re: Undercover - best sounding version?
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: November 16, 2021 22:30

Quote
ironbelly
Quote
ProfessorWolf
my main cd player is a sony cdp-55 from 1986
which i guess is kinda looked down upon by audiophiles because of its mid 80's dac however i like it but i doubt it'll be capable of sacd playback though i'm intrigued by the technology and will keep an eye out for a capable player during my thrift store hunts

but i did get cbs copies of undercover, tattoo you, and sticky fingers for $2 each a couple days ago and listening to them in comparision with my 2009 universal undercover, sticky fingers and 2021 tattoo you with the above mentioned cd player and thru audio technica ath-m50x headphones i hands down prefer the cbs even for sticky fingers which i agree does sound a bit muddy but in a way that i like and think sounds right with the music thanks for the advice next i'm gonna see if i can get a copy of satanic on one them west german cds very intrigued by what that will sound like
Generations apart

The Rolling Stones - Undercover [Rolling Stones Records-EMI CDP 7 46024 2 ]
Japan for Europe, November 7, 1983,
Toshiba pressing plant
Matrix: CDP 7 46024 2 CP35-3087-1 1A1

This is 'true first pressing' from glass master -1, father 1, mother A, stampler 1.

The Rolling Stone - Undercover [Rolling Stones Records - Universal UICY-79248]
Japan only SHM-CD, December 4, 2020. Paper-jacket edition to commemorate 30th Anniversary of the 1st visit of The Rolling Stones to Japan.
JVC pressing plant
Matrix: UICY-40072 H1T [4xUniversal logo]
SID Mastering code: IFPI L236
SID Mould code: IFPI 4011

This one is the latest edition.

Are there any differences in terms of tonality and loudness? Judge yourself. These are graphs for Track 01 - Undercover.
Original spectra


Difference spectra (RSR-EMI was used as a baseline)

interesting
the 83 undercover is a cool looking disk maybe someday i'll acquire on

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: JJHMick ()
Date: November 17, 2021 18:39

My idea why Undercover is not well respected in fan circles is that those Stones prototype rockers are simply weak!: Too Tough, All The Way Down and It Must Be Hell (which is a replay of Soul Survivor). These are the last images one has listening to the whole record.
Wanna Hold You too sloppy. Keith hadn't yet realized that he's the balladeer in the band.
I think the new sounds are what we appreciate: Undercover is marvellous,
She was Hot is at least lovable for that video. The same for Too Much Blood. If you don't like the music, it's the lyrics that are brillant.
The regular reggae, a bit too slow but fine.
Pretty Beat Up is probably what Stu would have let to comment again "sounds like bloody Status Quo". I like SQ and PBU would have been a good song for them.
Tie You Up is left - why not leaving it left? Suggestions for outtakes as a good replacement, folks.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: November 20, 2021 01:36

Quote
treaclefingers
Quote
Four Stone Walls
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Witness
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
matxil
Quote
HMS
I wonder if there is really anybody around who likes Mick Jagger´s "Let´s Work". I guess not even Mick likes it. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out I remember I turned to stone, as I first heard it, I simply couldn´t believe what I heard. I felt incredibly ashamed for Mick, it's by far the lowest moment of his career.eye popping smiley

I remember when it came out. I'd just recently become a Stones fan, whereas most of my friends only listened to new-wave. We were having some beers, watching MTV and then this "song" came on. A very embarrassing moment. I remember that one of my friends even said: "Oh well, it's not worse than the Stones". And what with Dirty Work that had just come out, I couldn't even blast him away with as much force as I'd've liked to.

If that doesn't sum up DIRTY WORK as being as awful as it is nothing does.

Your friend was wrong, though - Let's Work is worse than all of DIRTY WORK.

And look at the lineage - DIRTY WORK, Let's Work... Rock And A Hard Place.

Awful. DIRTY WORK makes VOODOO LOUNGE seem like EXILE ON MAIN STREET.

GasLightStreet's post on page 1 of the thread was like this. Then it is obvious what was added as new text a couple of posts before this.

I don't get that bullshit fake one above by Four Stone Walls.


What FSW was saying - but he had mistakenly replied to GLS's final remark prematurely -

is that Dirty Work is better than all of Voodoo Lounge ( mainly a turkey - which is an insult to turkeys) - and that Let's Work - the single - is better than most stuff on VL.

But ok - this is an Undercover thread.

Initially I thought it was a good to great album - but now not. Has not stood test of time. But the sessions sound good. Band working well together.

Keith didn't like the finished product.

I think he far preferred Dirty Work. As do I. It has more Life. Not still life either.


Eddy

If Dirty Work has "life", then it ain't one worth living I'm afraid.

I mean that DW has vitality. Keith and Ronnie are totally engaged and creative.

The opening track on side one grabs you from the 'get go's. Best opener since Rocks Off or Hot Stuff.

Winning Ugly on side 2 ditto.

Harlem Shuffle, Fight, Dirty Work, Had It with You and yes Hold Back -

all immediate and fresh.

Undercover's rockers are kind of cliched and stale by comparison. Parodies.
Title track and too much blood are different. But essentially they are all Jagger songs and it's done to his script.

Undercover is great cos it's more Keith ( with Ronnie).

People berate Back to Zero. Guitar interaction great and spontaneous.

Compare Pretty Beat Up. Lame, and conceptually.

It must be Hell. Sure is. Worst album closer ever.
Bereft of any originality or life.

Desperate stuff.

In that context, creatively, Dirty Work was a breath of fresh air.

Hail Hail Rock-'n'-roll - hail KR with his mojo back and in the groove

showing how to truly end an album too.


What I like about U album now is Watts and Wyman, together. And Wyman on Too Much Blood.

Cheers, (me dears)

Time to get some Sleep Tonight.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: November 21, 2021 01:00

Another thing I have learnt from thoughts provoked by this thread is that:

although Undercover is a running out of ideas album, a having to do another album more for contractual reasons than to the love of working and being together - to the extent that Jagger would then prefer to make his own album and hope to pursue his own career -

it is still a way better album than Voodoo Lounge.

The first three rockers on undercover are fare better than those long VL.
VL has Out of Tears which is outstanding and Undercover has no ballad of master melodic work. But overall, with exception of It Must Be Hell, Undercover has a better band vibe and sound. 5 guys playing as one and the drums are vital.

VL has a dead drum sound and four guyslaying with a bass player playing along with them.

11 years later they could not better Undercover which is not that great anyway.


Dirty Work and Steel Wheels should be cherished.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: skytrench ()
Date: November 21, 2021 01:30

Quote
Four Stone Walls
11 years later they could not better Undercover which is not that great anyway.


Dirty Work and Steel Wheels should be cherished.

Undercover still has a murky, sleazy and cohesive sound that is more reminiscent of the period before than the period after. And that delivery factor is maybe more important than the songwriting itself.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: November 22, 2021 00:57

Yes, cohesive band sound - even on weaker numbers like ATWD and Too Tough.

A real Groove going on

Edit: ( thinking aloud) in fact a lot of this kind of live engagement had been lacking on ER album - largely a series of 'performances')

The other good 'engaged' numbers being Pain of Love and SWH to large extent - and although Keith's Wanna Hold' is slight at least it has a fresh and off-the-cuff feel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-11-22 02:07 by Four Stone Walls.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: November 22, 2021 04:44

Quote
Four Stone Walls
Quote
treaclefingers
Quote
Four Stone Walls
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Witness
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
matxil
Quote
HMS
I wonder if there is really anybody around who likes Mick Jagger´s "Let´s Work". I guess not even Mick likes it. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out I remember I turned to stone, as I first heard it, I simply couldn´t believe what I heard. I felt incredibly ashamed for Mick, it's by far the lowest moment of his career.eye popping smiley

I remember when it came out. I'd just recently become a Stones fan, whereas most of my friends only listened to new-wave. We were having some beers, watching MTV and then this "song" came on. A very embarrassing moment. I remember that one of my friends even said: "Oh well, it's not worse than the Stones". And what with Dirty Work that had just come out, I couldn't even blast him away with as much force as I'd've liked to.

If that doesn't sum up DIRTY WORK as being as awful as it is nothing does.

Your friend was wrong, though - Let's Work is worse than all of DIRTY WORK.

And look at the lineage - DIRTY WORK, Let's Work... Rock And A Hard Place.

Awful. DIRTY WORK makes VOODOO LOUNGE seem like EXILE ON MAIN STREET.

GasLightStreet's post on page 1 of the thread was like this. Then it is obvious what was added as new text a couple of posts before this.

I don't get that bullshit fake one above by Four Stone Walls.


What FSW was saying - but he had mistakenly replied to GLS's final remark prematurely -

is that Dirty Work is better than all of Voodoo Lounge ( mainly a turkey - which is an insult to turkeys) - and that Let's Work - the single - is better than most stuff on VL.

But ok - this is an Undercover thread.

Initially I thought it was a good to great album - but now not. Has not stood test of time. But the sessions sound good. Band working well together.

Keith didn't like the finished product.

I think he far preferred Dirty Work. As do I. It has more Life. Not still life either.


Eddy

If Dirty Work has "life", then it ain't one worth living I'm afraid.

I mean that DW has vitality. Keith and Ronnie are totally engaged and creative.

The opening track on side one grabs you from the 'get go's. Best opener since Rocks Off or Hot Stuff.

Winning Ugly on side 2 ditto.

Harlem Shuffle, Fight, Dirty Work, Had It with You and yes Hold Back -

all immediate and fresh.


Undercover's rockers are kind of cliched and stale by comparison. Parodies.
Title track and too much blood are different. But essentially they are all Jagger songs and it's done to his script.

Undercover is great cos it's more Keith ( with Ronnie).

People berate Back to Zero. Guitar interaction great and spontaneous.

Compare Pretty Beat Up. Lame, and conceptually.

It must be Hell. Sure is. Worst album closer ever.
Bereft of any originality or life.

Desperate stuff.

In that context, creatively, Dirty Work was a breath of fresh air.

Hail Hail Rock-'n'-roll - hail KR with his mojo back and in the groove

showing how to truly end an album too.


What I like about U album now is Watts and Wyman, together. And Wyman on Too Much Blood.

Cheers, (me dears)

Time to get some Sleep Tonight.

It's good you like it, but I'm afraid your arguments are not compelling.

What it shows is what happens when Ronnie and Keith are put in charge and it ain't pretty. This needs to be a team effort and the captain of this team sat out during DW.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: November 24, 2021 06:29

All The Way Down is better than any song on DIRTY WORK.

Critically, musically, performanceally... and whatever other 'ly's exist.


It is comical that It Must Be Hell is Soul Survivor meets Honky Tonk Women. But the vocals are outstanding regardless, as with the entire album, and not any worse than Sleep Tonight ripping off Coming Down Again's bridge note for note, structurally.

Sad Sad Sad is just Brown Sugar inverted, but Sleep Tonight... out of the 800 songs they worked on, THAT closes the album that starts with 'Hey, let's shittily ape Street Fighting Man!'

UNDERCOVER was not exactly an end-of-contract album - they signed with CBS Records after U was finished because the Atlantic Records deal in the US had been completed and they opted to go elsewhere. Their independence was for sale. EMI took over EU releases in 1978 and that deal also ended in 1984. Both distribution deals ended with REWIND.

If the Stones ever had incentive to "do better" because of a record deal, DIRTY WORK proved that to be absolutely wrong. CBS got screwed on that one. The CBS deal was for 4 LPs.

CBS got shafted by the Stones - they got two studio LPs and one live album.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: November 24, 2021 15:47

Quote
GasLightStreet
All The Way Down is better than any song on DIRTY WORK.

Critically, musically, performanceally... and whatever other 'ly's exist.


I'll give DW a couple of spins in your honor!

C

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: KeithNacho ()
Date: November 24, 2021 16:33

Conclusions. Undercover is not so good album, and DW is not that bad. I find both week, but both have very nice moments

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: November 25, 2021 05:48

Quote
liddas
Quote
GasLightStreet
All The Way Down is better than any song on DIRTY WORK.

Critically, musically, performanceally... and whatever other 'ly's exist.


I'll give DW a couple of spins in your honor!

C

Fortunately it's not my time you're wasting!!!!! Waste away!

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: November 25, 2021 05:49

Quote
KeithNacho
Conclusions. Undercover is not so good album, and DW is not that bad. I find both week, but both have very nice moments

So... basically, essentially, in general, what you just said is UNDERCOVER is a good album, DIRTY WORK is a bad album.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Gfmsoccer ()
Date: November 25, 2021 05:53

It Must Be Hell is one of my favorite songs, because of the great guitar riff. But most fans don’t even remember it, and they’ve never performed it.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: November 25, 2021 11:55

Quote
Gfmsoccer

It Must Be Hell is one of my favorite songs, because of the great guitar riff.

Soul Survivor re-played.

Re: ALBUM TALK: Undercover
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: November 25, 2021 14:33

Quote
Irix
Quote
Gfmsoccer

It Must Be Hell is one of my favorite songs, because of the great guitar riff.

Soul Survivor re-played.

And later on, "Rock And A Hard Place" was VERY similar.

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