I hear a lot of people saying this album could have used a better mix and better production. We know it was the first album that Jimmy Miller didn't have a hand in for many years. So two questions, 1) How do you think Jimmy Miller would have produced it and 2) How would you have produced it?

Would you replace songs? Change the track listing? Remember, think of it as an A and B side. I love how the A side ends and the B side begins, but I think the album starts off a little clunky. It always bothered me that If You Can't Rock Me was followed up by a song with the lyrics: "I never wanna leave you". I think they should have done Drift Away instead. Anyway, I'll post my more detailed analysis later.

He would have made them work harder on the songs and probably dug up some of the unreleased tunes from their past studio efforts and made them
Work harder on those. Would have ended up being a very different release.

I love it as it is, wouldn't change a thing.

First of all I would have buried this MT-guy as deep as possible in the mix. And I would have removed Till The Next Goodbye and If You Really Want To Be My Friend,both songs are awful and boooooooring.
Otherwise it´s a pretty good album, imo.

Hard for me to be too critical with song selection as I do like all the tunes
on the Album. Drift away would have been good but not at the expense of "too
Proud to beg". One slight production problem I have noticed is there is an audible studio chatter or talking which occurs in the middle of "Time Waits
for No one". I assume a good producer would have pulled that off the track.

Interesting...maybe a better snaresound.

He would have skipped If You Really Want To Be My Friend.........

__________________________

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NICOS
He would have skipped If You Really Want To Be My Friend.........

Yes because this album is not better than GHS.

Produced?

Shortened Luxury, IYCRM and DLS considerably. Skipped Till The Next Goodbye (two ballads are enough). I would have started the album with FF and made it the first single.

Mixing?

Lose the woolen sound. Make the soundscape tidier and cleaner, like on BAB. The drum sound needs more punch as well as clarity.

I love the album....But I would have replaced Till the next goodbye with
Through the lonely nights....Loved that track,

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hot stuff
I love the album....But I would have replaced Till the next goodbye with
Through the lonely nights....Loved that track,

Too many ballads.

The question being specifically about Jimmy Miller I think he had indeed burned out by the time this record was made, doubt he could have done much to improve it. Perhaps a better drum sound, maybe a bit more percussion, maybe some better selected takes. Overall I think he would have just worked with what Mick and Keith gave him. This is what they had at the time, I doubt Mr. Miller would have had enough influence or motivation to change much in 1974.

I do find it a bit strange that they traded a couple heroin addicts (Miller and Andy Johns) for another one (Keith Harwood) when they have mentioned this was one of the reasons Johns and Miller were let go. Perhaps Mr. Harwood picked up his habit from hanging around Keith like so many others did and in 1974 he was still relatively sober.

Did Harwood produce? I thought he only mixed/engineered.

Mick and Keith were the producers, no?

First of all, is this true?

"The album was at first developed as a half-live, half-studio production with one side of the album featuring live performances from the Stones' European tour while the other side was to be composed of newly recorded cover versions of the band's favourite R&B songs. Covers recorded included a take of Dobie Gray's "Drift Away", Shirley & Company's "Shame, Shame, Shame", and The Temptations' "Ain't Too Proud to Beg". Soon the band began working off riffs by Richards and new ideas by Mick Jagger and the original concept was scrapped in favour of an album with all-new material. The cover of "Ain't Too Proud to Beg" was the only recording to make the cut, while the "Drift Away" cover is a popular bootleg."

--from Wikipedia

I had never heard of the half-live/half-covers plan.

In any case, I would have turned it in to an EP:

IORR
Through the Lonely Nights
TWFNO
Fingerprint File
Drift Away

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DandelionPowderman
Did Harwood produce? I thought he only mixed/engineered.

Mick and Keith were the producers, no?

Yes that's my understanding. Probably a fine line between the two in many cases since it seems Mick and Keith have pretty much always produced or co-produced, imo. My point was that they basically traded Miller and Johns for Harwood at some point. Andy Johns is quoted as saying that Mick and Keith had already learned all Millers tricks by the time of IORR and felt they didn't need him anymore.

It is funny how different people hear things. I am fine with the production on IORR. I have stated before in short and long lyrical posts why I love that strange funky album. And the Glimmers did well by me! Granted I am used to the superb sounding Japanese vinyl, which blows away any of the CD versions I have heard. Sorry, that is in error, the Japanese SCAD is also amazing. Especially Fingerprint File.

the Japanese SCAD is also amazing. Especially Fingerprint File.

SURE IS and SURE IS .....



ROCKMAN

Jimmy Miller was strung out at the time, so I doubt he would've helped.

Theres no issue with the production of the record.

Some better songs might've helped

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BILLPERKS
Jimmy Miller was strung out at the time, so I doubt he would've helped.

Theres no issue with the production of the record.

Some better songs might've helped

You don't think some of the songs are too long and repetitive?

As much as I love GHS I do not think that it was very well recorded or mixed. If you compare the studio and live versions of 'Dancing with Mr D' you'll notice what they could make out of that song.

So I am in doubt if Jimmy Miller would have improved IORR greatly (but I like the Album as it is).

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saltoftheearth
As much as I love GHS I do not think that it was very well recorded or mixed. If you compare the studio and live versions of 'Dancing with Mr D' you'll notice what they could make out of that song.

So I am in doubt if Jimmy Miller would have improved IORR greatly (but I like the Album as it is).

They sound pretty similar to me. A bit more hammond on the live version gives it a bit more energy, but the screaming from the studio version is sorely missed toward the ending of the live version...

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DandelionPowderman

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BILLPERKS
Jimmy Miller was strung out at the time, so I doubt he would've helped.

Theres no issue with the production of the record.

Some better songs might've helped

You don't think some of the songs are too long and repetitive?

Not at all

Fantastic album...but suffers a bit from mixing and track choices. And from not having Charlie play on the title track!

Here´s the version on my iPod;


Living in The Heart Of Love - heavy and rowdy. Great opening track!

Time Waits For No One - some beautiful plaintive gravitas to take you deeper into the record.

Drift Away - Great cover.Starts a bit slow and gradually gains power and speed. The magic of having no click!

IORR - Maybe the promo version if ever available in exc. sound.

Till The Next Goodbye - some nice harmonies and great tom toms. An interesting mix of soul and country.

Short And Curlies - Ok. Not great, but adds some spontaneity. Needs a mix with more air.

Dance Little Sister - alt. mix with the ham-fisted glam guitar moved more to the left side with more prominent fluid rock´n roll playing in the right channel. SO much better.

Through The Lonely Nights - Good song with some surprising velvet underground licks ( at around a minute). Great singing and playing.

And ending with the soulful triple whammy of

If You Can´t Rock Me - alt. mix. Great song! Just not as an opener.

If You Really Want To Be My Friend - Used to hate it. Now I love it, and the philly sounding back up vocals. And it flows greatly into

Fingerprint File - The slightly slower and longer version from the 2011 DSD flat transfer. This stunning track has never sounded better! All official versions above sound the best on this "Turquoise Blue " edition. "Time"is also a few seconds longer.


-I find the lyrics and vocal delivery Luxury a bit embarrassing. Also suffers from the same guitar sound as Dance Little Sister. So no Luxury here. And I could never get into "Beg" for some reason. Neither The Stones Nor the original version.

All in all eleven tracks with a wide range of grooves and emotions.
A rich and extremely rewarding album.

Soundwise, i´d like som more punch to the bass drum and tom toms. And at times, a bit more space.

Along with Goats Head Soup (with half the tracks from GHS Outtakes) this is the one I listen to the most. Not a week goes by without some File.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-26 15:32 by Mikael.

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LongBeachArena72
First of all, is this true?

"The album was at first developed as a half-live, half-studio production with one side of the album featuring live performances from the Stones' European tour while the other side was to be composed of newly recorded cover versions of the band's favourite R&B songs. Covers recorded included a take of Dobie Gray's "Drift Away", Shirley & Company's "Shame, Shame, Shame", and The Temptations' "Ain't Too Proud to Beg". Soon the band began working off riffs by Richards and new ideas by Mick Jagger and the original concept was scrapped in favour of an album with all-new material. The cover of "Ain't Too Proud to Beg" was the only recording to make the cut, while the "Drift Away" cover is a popular bootleg."

--from Wikipedia

I have also heard that story, probably from some Stones book, and can't really say if it is true or not. I do still recall hearing a Jagger interview during their European Tour '73, in which he stated that they would release a live album from that tour (could be that he also talked about covers). But he also said that he will do a solo album as well, and at least Mick Taylor will guest him there. So was Jagger just fooling around, throwing crazy, possible ideas on the air?

Now it sounds almost a crazy idea, taking that a new Stones album of originals almost every year was the formula they seemed to follow back then. But who knows how creatively exhausted they were back then. Seemingly GOATS HEAD SOUP was such a struggle to accomplish, and we could also Taylor's upcoming departure as one sign of that. Plus, and probably effecting to everything, their strongest musical visionalist was heavily on drugs (and the rest probably not quite 'straight' either). Probably they could have just thought that let's buy some time, release something, and wait until the creativity comes back... Releasing just one side of live material makes sense: their effort to release live album from American Tour '72 was sapotaged by their previous record company due to rights for some songs. Now they could fill one side by just material that they had all the rights for... Besides, as is known, Jagger was rather involved in mixing - and even over-dubbing - the material, which would then see the daylight through radiowaves, and what we know today as BRUSSELLS AFFAIR (he did his contribution in the same studio and at the same time as Dylan was recording BLOOD ON THE TRACKS next door). Had he also - or initially - some other plans for the material?

Well, the story says that Mick and Keith finally realized that they had enough new material/inspired to write some more to make a 'normal album'. Some wild speculation: was that partly thanks to Ronnie Wood? Namely, he 'inspired' to write the song that would set the theme for the whole album ...Was that was needed to make the creativity flow again?...

- Doxa

He would have enhanced the muffled mix, maybe, although already GHS and EOMS aren't masterpieces of mixing. Songwise the album is perfect, nothing to drop, nothing to add. The only thing that I miss is a deluxe treatment of that great album, particularly a version history of TWFNO, the development of this well-known masterpiece of soloing.

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LongBeachArena72
First of all, is this true?

"The album was at first developed as a half-live, half-studio production with one side of the album featuring live performances from the Stones' European tour while the other side was to be composed of newly recorded cover versions of the band's favourite R&B songs. Covers recorded included a take of Dobie Gray's "Drift Away", Shirley & Company's "Shame, Shame, Shame", and The Temptations' "Ain't Too Proud to Beg". Soon the band began working off riffs by Richards and new ideas by Mick Jagger and the original concept was scrapped in favour of an album with all-new material. The cover of "Ain't Too Proud to Beg" was the only recording to make the cut, while the "Drift Away" cover is a popular bootleg."

--from Wikipedia

I had never heard of the half-live/half-covers plan.

In any case, I would have turned it in to an EP:

IORR
Through the Lonely Nights
TWFNO
Fingerprint File
Drift Away

Another source: Martin Elliott: The Rolling Stones. Complete Recording Sessions 1962-2002, London 2002, mentions it, too, on page 213, in respect of the half live/half studio arrangement. But nothing is said there about the cover concept.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-26 17:12 by RobertJohnson.

Living In The Heart Of Love should've been either the opening track or track 2 instead of Ain't Too Proud To Beg.

Interesting tune, LITHOL. There are elements in it that reveal (possibly) where Luxury came from. Probably the reason they left it alone is it sounds too much like Brown Sugar (with glimpes of Honky Tonk Women) at times. Kick ass track though. Think it's possible this was considered for TATTOO YOU? I know it's not listed anywhere as being part of those 1980 vocal sessions Mick did but considering that Let's Do It Right was from the BLACK AND BLUE sessions, it's possible Kimsey listened to the small amount of leftovers from the IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL sessions seeing that he want back to the 1972 GOATS HEAD SOUP sessions for tracks.

If You Really Want To Be My Friend is outstanding. Gospel rock'n'roll.

They should've finished Black Limousine and put it on instead of Short And Curlies.

Through The Lonely Nights should've gone on GOATS HEAD SOUP in place of Hide Your Love, Angie or Silver Train.

Too much chorus effect on the guitars and keys. Makes it sound dated.

Miller would have removed one of the weaker songs and he would have made the boyz work on "Save Me".

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dcba
Miller would have removed one of the weaker songs and he would have made the boyz work on "Save Me".

Do you mean Criss Cross Mind? It was already finished!