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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan

Keith Richards in his own words has downplayed his contributions to this song. He is the authority figure, not you. It's up to everyone to read what the actual band members said during this time. Richards said he wrote the main riff and it was taken up by others (he also said it was mainly Taylor).

I think you're misinterpreting the «got taken up by others»-part. Most likely, he meant that the song became very different than he had foreseen – mainly because of Taylor's contribution.

That doesn't mean that Keith didn't have a lot to do with the writing, recording and producing of the song. He did.

Btw, I'm somewhat baffled over what you said about Keith's and Taylor's rhythm guitar playing. Do you really mean that their rhythm style isn't very different? Do you belive that Broken Hands sounds remotely like Keith, for instance? Just trying to digest that one ...

I'm misinterpreting a direct quote? How do you have more information than I do? IMO Richards was always very candid about giving others credit in transforming songs. It's his fans that believe otherwise.

As far as the rhythm guitar, there are other places on the record where the standard tuned rhythm guitar sounds like Richards in standard tuning. It's not rocket science to play barre chords rhythmically. For years people thought Richards was playing rhythm guitar on songs and it was actually Jagger.

When these bands tracked, they tracked live and they did as many takes as possible to get it right in a single take. If the entire band was there, they played. If somebody wasn't there, sometimes they were left off the song. Sometimes Richards wiped tracks and replaced them, but according to Glyn Johns apparently Taylor did as well.

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TravelinMan

How do you have more information than I do?

Surprise surprise.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Taylor1

What about Taylor’s rhythm guitar on Live With Me, Bitch,Star Star, Hip Shake,maybe a second guitar on Rip this Joint as well as the outtakes All Down the Line from the Japanese edition of the Exile Deluxe and Tavelin Man.A lot of people think on Live with Me and Bitch that’s Keith playing rhythm.

Live With Me: great part, short, concise, aggressive. Propels the song.

Bitch: Fantastic. In fact so fantastic that I still find it hard to believe it isn't Keith, especially with Andy Johns' remark that the song didn't work until Keith kicked it in.

Star Star: Lacking in energy and groove until the horns kick in. Never liked the way he played it live either, he drags behind the beat.

Hip Shake: Nice, but not something I would consider a great rhythm part, also not Keith's part. It's the song, not the guitars.

Rip This Joint: No Taylor.

The outtake of All Down The Line: basic, uninteresting. Clearly they were focusing on the structure of the track, not the guitars.

Traveling Man: great riffing, more a lead part than a rhythm part though.

Mathijs

Well, the extended version of Bitch obviously proves it was Taylor. I thought we could put that one to rest by now,

Rip This Joint has a boogie rhythm that is Taylor. There are two rhythm guitars and they both exist on the Hopkins Tapes and the released version. It's very low in the mix on Exile, but it is there.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

How do you have more information than I do?

Surprise surprise.

Mathijs

I'm trying to have a civil objective discussion and you've already thrown around "ignorant" and "stupid".

I've cited primary source quotes throughout my posts, which means I am actually going to lengths to back up what I believe.

I'm misinterpreting a direct quote? IMO Richards was always very candid about giving others credit in transforming songs. It's his fans that believe otherwise.

Yes. And he IS candid! However, most likely, Keith was talking about what Mick Taylor's solos did to the song («got taken up ...»), not that Taylor did several overdubs on TWFNO and that he himself only played the riff and walked away. The solos and the melodies/themes made the song a different animal (than Keith had planned, for instance). If this is the case, your arguments just don't stick. Why do you find it so unlikely? We all know that he did more than the riff, so we can put that to rest.

No, I think you're being a bit difficult here. If you're not able to hear it, fine, but I think you are. I respect your knowledge, but I'm not sure if guitar is your main instrument?

<For years people thought Richards was playing rhythm guitar on songs and it was actually Jagger>

Please point me to one song in standard tuning (like this one is) where we mistook Keith's playing for Jagger's. The chords on TWFNO aren't really played like standard barre chords.

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DandelionPowderman
I'm misinterpreting a direct quote? IMO Richards was always very candid about giving others credit in transforming songs. It's his fans that believe otherwise.

Yes. And he IS candid! However, most likely, Keith was talking about what Mick Taylor's solos did to the song («got taken up ...»), not that Taylor did several overdubs on TWFNO and that he himself only played the riff and walked away. The solos and the melodies/themes made the song a different animal (than Keith had planned, for instance). If this is the case, your arguments just don't stick. Why do you find it so unlikely? We all know that he did more than the riff, so we can put that to rest.

No, I think you're being a bit difficult here. If you're not able to hear it, fine, but I think you are. I respect your knowledge, but I'm not sure if guitar is your main instrument?



Please point me to one song in standard tuning (like this one is) where we mistook Keith's playing for Jagger's. The chords on TWFNO aren't really played like standard barre chords.

You are misinterpreting what I said as it's been lost in a series of quotes.

Initially, I was pointing out the wide variety of guitar styles Taylor showcases on his debut album. He plays a TON of instruments on that album, maybe too many, but that's a different story.

My original point was there may be acoustic guitars elsewhere on records that could have been played by Taylor, especially chords during basic tracking or Jagger songs.

When I listened to his debut album recently, I also noticed electric rhythm guitars throughout the album that sounded Stones-like.

As far as people mistaking Jagger's playing for Richards, just go to Youtube.

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TravelinMan

Rip This Joint has a boogie rhythm that is Taylor. There are two rhythm guitars and they both exist on the Hopkins Tapes and the released version. It's very low in the mix on Exile, but it is there.

No its not, there is no Taylor on the released version. Taylor's part has been completely wiped. All guitars, including the slide, are Richards.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

How do you have more information than I do?

Surprise surprise.

Mathijs

I'm trying to have a civil objective discussion and you've already thrown around "ignorant" and "stupid".

I've cited primary source quotes throughout my posts, which means I am actually going to lengths to back up what I believe.

You are quite impossible to have a discussion with. You clearly miss information that is available, you misunderstand the quotes you reference, you doubt facts that are given by me or others, and you simply never seem to accept you are wrong or don't know the facts, and you do not acknowledge other people have some more or more complete or better information than you. There are people who have researched the Stones for the last 40 years, have build up quite a reputation, and still you doubt their info like it is 'alternative facts'.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan

My original point was there may be acoustic guitars elsewhere on records that could have been played by Taylor, especially chords during basic tracking or Jagger songs.

Of course Taylor could have played many parts. But we know he didn't ,as Keith simply would not let him. Keith treated Taylor like he treated Wyman: did his job on the basic take, no need to have him around anymore in the studio during overdubs. The exact reason why Wyman is missing on so many tracks. Keith spent the weeks in the studio erasing parts and overdubbing all the parts himself. Only if he thought somebody could do a better job he would ask Taylor to overdub a slide or a lead guitar. But even then, as I said, most Taylor' stand out moments are with Jagger, or on instigation of a producer like Any Johns.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

Rip This Joint has a boogie rhythm that is Taylor. There are two rhythm guitars and they both exist on the Hopkins Tapes and the released version. It's very low in the mix on Exile, but it is there.

No its not, there is no Taylor on the released version. Taylor's part has been completely wiped. All guitars, including the slide, are Richards.

Mathijs

You can hear it right down the middle. Very evident once you locate it. It’s the same guitar from the Hopkins Tapes. It’s a very basic rolled off boogie pattern, which he was known to play. The other two guitars are Richards.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

How do you have more information than I do?

Surprise surprise.

Mathijs

I'm trying to have a civil objective discussion and you've already thrown around "ignorant" and "stupid".

I've cited primary source quotes throughout my posts, which means I am actually going to lengths to back up what I believe.

You are quite impossible to have a discussion with. You clearly miss information that is available, you misunderstand the quotes you reference, you doubt facts that are given by me or others, and you simply never seem to accept you are wrong or don't know the facts, and you do not acknowledge other people have some more or more complete or better information than you. There are people who have researched the Stones for the last 40 years, have build up quite a reputation, and still you doubt their info like it is 'alternative facts'.

Mathijs

I’m an academic and I prioritize primary sources. I can’t cite “Mathijs on the internet” in a scholarly paper, but I can cite quotes by the band members and engineers to support a thesis.

As for me never accepting I’m wrong? That’s bogus. I just said I could see that acoustic overdub being done by Richards. I’m actually very open minded.

We’re all interpreting quotes, and some of the things Richards said really give the impression he didn’t have much to do with this song. The fact he brought it up after Taylor quit is also telling. Actually so did Jagger saying he “added passing chords.” What passing chords?

Great interview from late 1975. Lots of info about the sessions. Thanks for sharing.

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

How do you have more information than I do?

Surprise surprise.

Mathijs

I'm trying to have a civil objective discussion and you've already thrown around "ignorant" and "stupid".

I've cited primary source quotes throughout my posts, which means I am actually going to lengths to back up what I believe.

You are quite impossible to have a discussion with. You clearly miss information that is available, you misunderstand the quotes you reference, you doubt facts that are given by me or others, and you simply never seem to accept you are wrong or don't know the facts, and you do not acknowledge other people have some more or more complete or better information than you. There are people who have researched the Stones for the last 40 years, have build up quite a reputation, and still you doubt their info like it is 'alternative facts'.

Mathijs

I’m an academic and I prioritize primary sources. I can’t cite “Mathijs on the internet” in a scholarly paper, but I can cite quotes by the band members and engineers to support a thesis.

As for me never accepting I’m wrong? That’s bogus. I just said I could see that acoustic overdub being done by Richards. I’m actually very open minded.

We’re all interpreting quotes, and some of the things Richards said really give the impression he didn’t have much to do with this song. The fact he brought it up after Taylor quit is also telling. Actually so did Jagger saying he “added passing chords.” What passing chords?

I am an academic as well, leading a team of academics in a research institute. And I am a musician and guitar and amp collector for 40 years.

The statement of Richards gave you the impression he didn't have much to do with the track. It has been proven by me and others, with a collection of facts, reasoning, references and resources, that your impression is wrong. Yet you keep stating the same over and over.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

Rip This Joint has a boogie rhythm that is Taylor. There are two rhythm guitars and they both exist on the Hopkins Tapes and the released version. It's very low in the mix on Exile, but it is there.

No its not, there is no Taylor on the released version. Taylor's part has been completely wiped. All guitars, including the slide, are Richards.

Mathijs

You can hear it right down the middle. Very evident once you locate it. It’s the same guitar from the Hopkins Tapes. It’s a very basic rolled off boogie pattern, which he was known to play. The other two guitars are Richards.

The Hopkins tape has Keith in open G on the left channel, Keith in standard tuning on the right, and Taylor is an overdub where he tries out a slide/rhythm part. For the official version, Taylor's part has been erased completely, Richards two guitars are mixed down to mono, and Richards added slide and fill overdubs. There is no Taylor on the released version.

Mathijs



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025-10-30 19:21 by Mathijs.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

Rip This Joint has a boogie rhythm that is Taylor. There are two rhythm guitars and they both exist on the Hopkins Tapes and the released version. It's very low in the mix on Exile, but it is there.

No its not, there is no Taylor on the released version. Taylor's part has been completely wiped. All guitars, including the slide, are Richards.

Mathijs

You can hear it right down the middle. Very evident once you locate it. It’s the same guitar from the Hopkins Tapes. It’s a very basic rolled off boogie pattern, which he was known to play. The other two guitars are Richards.

The Hopkins tape has Keith in open G on the left channel, Keith in standard tuning on the right, and Taylor is an overdub where he tries out a slide/rhythm part. For the official version, Taylor's part has been erased completely, Richards two guitars are mixed down to mono, and Richards added slide and fill overdubs. There is no Taylor on the released version.

Mathijs

That doesn't sound like Taylor on slide—there's no vibrato.

The boogie pattern is what he would play when Richards played lead on Berry songs. We're just going to have to agree to disagree



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025-10-30 20:09 by TravelinMan.

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Mathijs
I am an academic as well, leading a team of academics in a research institute. And I am a musician and guitar and amp collector for 40 years.

The statement of Richards gave you the impression he didn't have much to do with the track. It has been proven by me and others, with a collection of facts, reasoning, references and resources, that your impression is wrong. Yet you keep stating the same over and over.

Mathijs

You haven't proven anything. You've stated your opinion as fact over and over, and while I have entertained it, I am going to leave you with these:



"(Can You Hear the Music? and Time Waits for No One) were my particular riff but got taken up by others in the band. Those songs got turned into something I didn't even imagine. Whereas something like Angie turned out pretty much as I expected."

- Keith Richards, 1974-75


"Well, I co-wrote that particular song but I didn't exactly like that (album) much."

- Mick Taylor, 1993


"I did have a falling out with Mick Jagger over some songs I should have been credited with co-writing on It's Only Rock 'n Roll. We were quite close friends and co-operated quite closely on getting that album made. By that time Mick and Keith weren't really working together as a team so I'd spend a lot of time in the studio."

- Mick Taylor, 1997


"You always know your limitations. They recede but they're still there. Which is why 'Time Waits For No One' hasn't received an airing yet 'cause no one's quite sure if that isn't the limit or as far as we can go. It was Mick Taylor who carried most of that on record. I think it was the best thing he did with the band."

- Keith Richards, 1975

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs
I am an academic as well, leading a team of academics in a research institute. And I am a musician and guitar and amp collector for 40 years.

The statement of Richards gave you the impression he didn't have much to do with the track. It has been proven by me and others, with a collection of facts, reasoning, references and resources, that your impression is wrong. Yet you keep stating the same over and over.

Mathijs

You haven't proven anything. You've stated your opinion as fact over and over, and while I have entertained it, I am going to leave you with these:



"(Can You Hear the Music? and Time Waits for No One) were my particular riff but got taken up by others in the band. Those songs got turned into something I didn't even imagine. Whereas something like Angie turned out pretty much as I expected."

- Keith Richards, 1974-75


"Well, I co-wrote that particular song but I didn't exactly like that (album) much."

- Mick Taylor, 1993


"I did have a falling out with Mick Jagger over some songs I should have been credited with co-writing on It's Only Rock 'n Roll. We were quite close friends and co-operated quite closely on getting that album made. By that time Mick and Keith weren't really working together as a team so I'd spend a lot of time in the studio."

- Mick Taylor, 1997


"You always know your limitations. They recede but they're still there. Which is why 'Time Waits For No One' hasn't received an airing yet 'cause no one's quite sure if that isn't the limit or as far as we can go. It was Mick Taylor who carried most of that on record. I think it was the best thing he did with the band."

- Keith Richards, 1975

These remarks are known for ages, and have been debated over and over here on this board. You totally miss the mark.

Mathijs

What a bore.

"Doesn't sound like Keith playing."

Y'all know he doesn't play the same way or a particular way on EVERY SONG, right?

Mick Taylor solos are beyond obvious, his rhythm playing isn't.

LOL.