Tell Me :
Talk
Yup.
Ew eee. Cannot you appreciate the slide guitar, the 12 string guitar in the background, nothin’ ?
Play it for a lady friend over candlelight.
It's a breakup song, 35love.
Wot? Isn't there a next time?
“Hello, again”
Keith Richards 2018
The Louisiana recipe bit I see as her trying to come up with a miracle cure for their relationship and his saying 'it doesn't work for me, sorry...' I may be wrong, English isn't even my language...
Yeah it's complex, like most break ups are. Not like Let Me Go, that's not a break up, it's an expulsion
I don't disagree here. For sure the young blues guitarist who joined the Stones in 1969 was not one-to-one player to the musician who departed from the band five years later. Not that any talented guy during that peculiar era would have evolved and changed in five years (in his early twenties), but also that of him being involved in making some of the best rock music ever done and wittnessing some of the strongest rock song writers at their peak working close by surely left some influence on him, being it intentional or not. It was not only him giving something novel and extra to the Stones sound but also that of The Stones giving something to him in return. I am rather sure that despite his own fluidy and melodic style he is famous for, Keith's presence, style and approach playing the guitar alone left a mark on him.
I especially agree that in his approach to Dylan's "Master of War" there is something 'Stonesy'.
- Doxa
Re the Stones (Richards) and Taylor: It was a win - win situation, musically. What else can we ask for? They got the best out of each other. But please don't overestimate Richards as a musician. I like him a lot as a rhythm guitarist/ songwriter, but just like Taylor, he had to grow, he stole from the best and played with the best in his chosen field. Music means a lot more than songwriting to me if you get my point. I bet Keith would agree, even while he's more famous than Taylor. .
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-25 22:02 by TheflyingDutchman.
It was a win win situation for sure, but I don't think I overestimate Richards as a musician. I guess exactly those features in Keith you appreciate in him, leaning towards rhythm and riffs going along with his songwriting skills, both very idiosyncratic, I reckon making an impression for Taylor as well. Who wouldn't have been impressed by that? Surely Keith was no any Jimi Hendrix but he had his own assets and a strong intuition and determination in his doings. But yeah, surely Taylor's presence affect also Keith for leaning more towards the rhythm guitar department since having such a beautiful lead guitarist in the band. In that I agree that they "got the best out of each other", despite I know some Keith Richards fans feeling that due to Taylor Keith got more one-dimensional (not playing any longer so much leads, slide, etc.). In a way one could say that Taylor had an indirect role in making the 'riff master', making rhythm guitar to be played almost like a lead guitar and to be recognized as a key element of a rock and roll band, as we know Keith Richards to be. No matter how good Keith over-all is as a guitar player, I think the biggest impact he has done and what he will be remembered for in the history of rock guitar is that of making a rhythm guitar shine, which is a helluva achievement. The signature Open G belongs to that box.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 11:20 by Doxa.
Sorry, but I really don't understand what you try to say here, Dandie. What "Paint It Black" (a perfection indeed as you say) has to do with in discussing Taylor/Richards interaction and dynamics? That Richards Taylor get to know and to work with was into different things than at the time when he wrote "Paint It Black" (remember, it was the 60's and the times where changing rapidly), and this tendency continued and stengthened during Taylor's years in the band.
Surely Keith had written some excellent and iconic riffs before, including the world's most famous and recognizable one ever, but I think he really mastered his art in that department when he started using chords - and many times with open tunings - as the vehicle of those riffs that started to constitute the whole song. "Jumpin Jack Flash" and "Street Fighting Man" were the first explosion of that new innovation and apprach. If before that a 'riff' was something catchy to be added to the song a'la "The Last Time" (hi Brian!), "Satisfaction" and "Get Off Of My Cloud" (hello Brian again!) or go along the melody line like "Paint It Black" - and basically just a catchy run of single notes, a'la "Oh Pretty Woman" or "Day Tripper" - the new approach reconstructed the whole nature and role of a 'riff' within a song structure. Roughly, if it had earlier belonged more to 'lead guitar' department - icing the cake - now it was closer to the foundation of the song, that of traditional rhythm guitar. What people call as the 'golden era' or the 'Big Four', as the representation of the distinctive or classical Rolling Stones sound, was also that of Keith mastering this new approach, EXILE being like a final thesis. After that 1968-72 era reputation of 'riffmaster' was finally laid and the sound of The Rolling Stones was about completed - something easily recognizable ever since. When years later a thing like "Start Me Up" hit the airwaves, everybody immediately knew exactly the reference. That sound. It's the riffmaster there.
Of course, as I noted, the new approach in writing and leaning towards more rhythn guitar (in riffs) had alraedy started before Taylor joined in, but I think it is safe to claim that Taylor's presence and his excellence within the boundaries of traditional lead guitar department strengthened the tendency. We can hear the change in dynamics if we follow the evolution of their guitar co-work through the tours from 1969 to 1973. This cohers with Keith's claim in LIFE that he started to write songs 'Mick Taylor in his mind'. What else can that mean but that of leaving room for Taylor's lead guitar him taking more care of the bottom? (That said, I think Keith's creative juices had started to dry out by the end of Taylor years, be the reason whatever.)
I think after Keith having mastered his act and created a distinctive sound of his own (which cohers with the recognizable sound of The Rolling Stones), and thereby earned his reputation, that also affects to the way we nowadays approach those older recordings, such as "Satisfaction" and "Paint It Black" (and like it was difficult for ages for people to accept that the riff of "The Last Time" was actually Brian's). Now we hear there a young riff master and interpret the outcome in those terms. But hadn't we get to know the man mastering his approach, those would be 'just' great and iconic riffs made by a great writer, but without a typical or needed signature. Like we would listen to "Oh Pretty Woman" or "Day Tripper" we would not hear that 'oh, one must be a riffmaster to do that'. No, we would just hear a catchy riff. Keith earned that reputation later.
(I would go so far to claim that had Keith not ever mastered his signature style but, say, having disappeared from the sight after THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES, he would be now mostly remembered as a great song-writer, who happen also to be a rather good guitarist, for example, doing nice Chuck Berry solos, and coming occasionally with such iconic riff as "Satisfaction". But it would be pretty hard to imagine that out of his own hey-day from 1963 to 1967 his guitar accomplishments would be something to inspire rock musicians for generations to come or to think him as some sort of "riff master". Actually in that case I don't think his reputation as a guitarist would be much bigger than what Brian Jones enjoys nowadays).
Lastly, if is the Jimi Hendrix comparison that bothers you, I should have added "as a guitarist", but I think that was obvious without saying.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 14:40 by Doxa.
Yeah, sure, I agree with almost everything you write here. I would recommend every (beginning) guitarist to listen to Keith, dig what rhythm guitar in rock is all about!! He made the five string open G very popular- I don't know if he invented it-there are contradictions both from Keith and Ry Cooder on this subject. Keith is a limited player, but within these limitations he turned out to be a very creative guy over the years, so here I go: There are roughly two kind of guitar players: The ones that have a limited vocabulary but a very distinct sound, and need songs to expres themselves and second: the ones that you put on a chair solamente and can play and improvise for one hour without repeating themselves, but stil with a distinctive sound. I just find the second type of player more interesting, hence my remark: music means more then songwriting to me, something that some persistent posters here never seem to understand when it comes to Keith, songwriting and the Stones.
The Stones can sound like the Stones even without Keith, any Stones member actually, songs have proved it, and Keith likely didn't show up with an entire score for a song: he needed his music friends to get the creative proces and songwriting going on. There will be quite some exceptions. WTF, maybe I'm just getting old and soure. I sometimes even wonder if I'm still a Stones fan. The way many people put Keith and the Stones on a pedestal is almost hilarious. Keith's and Jagger's charisma , and smart PR helps of course. I plee guilty as well btw, hence Mick Taylor, but that goal is over by now.
Yeah Doxa, it's pretty incredible to look at images of Taylor at the start, and then at the ending. It reminds me kind of when there is a president elected in US White House - those guys seem to age a lifetime in just days.
Taylor obviously was very young, so he would have still been changing. But at the epicenter of the Stones at their height of powers. And drug use too.
There is that one image of Taylor and Keith somewhere on the road in 73 maybe where they are at a diner booth; looks like Keith is scarfing up some pancakes, and Taylor is smoking. That is where Taylor always looks beat up to me LOL
I agree with what you say about Keith's rhythm playing later on here.
But what Keith played during those years on stage was the very foundation that Taylor played off. IMO, that's an easier task for a guitarist, who used to be the lead player - and was used to taking care of all facets of a guitarist's role.
It's also interesting that Keith kept the open tunings to a minimum between 1974 and 1989 for new material. That gave us tracks like Beast Of Burden, Down In The Hole, Shattered and Tie You Up - all songs where not only rhythm and lead-interplay was important, but also rhythm, licks, riffs and lead parts were featured within one single guitar track (much like how Keith played in the 60s - for instance on Stupid Girl on Aftermath).
The riff and thus main melody is partly nicked.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 02:26 by His Majesty.
I'm sure artists and musicians work in different ways, but their common practise is clear: They all need inspiration, which never materialise out of thin air.
All the big ones from the 60s let themselves be inspired by their peers and their heroes, or by what was going on in the world around them. Mick and Keith were no exceptions, of course.
However, there is a big difference between a riff, a chord sequence, a lyrical hook and a finished song. That's where I think your analysis is a little shallow. Making a finished song takes a lot of work. If you have a riff sounding a bit like Nowhere To Run, fine - or a chord sequence like Mr. Fantasy, good - the question is what are you going to do with it? You might not even know where you heard it until the song is done. The artists they might consciously or unconsciously heard it from probably didn't write it from scratch, either. Let's face it: The E – D – A chord-sequence was not invented in the late 60s..
The riff is often the very first thing you got. Crafting songs like Paint It Black or Back Street Girl takes a lot more than that. It's called songwriting, and Mick and Keith were quite good at it
No need for diminishing. Did I read a stab at Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting as well? That's priceless!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 14:56 by DandelionPowderman.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: November 23, 2018 17:42
“Til The Next Goodbye, Mick Taylor's final recording with the Stones.”
Doesn’t mean he wrote it. Played guitar. Is this what everyone is referring?
Anyway, I purchased The Rolling Stones ‘Black Box’ 3 CD’s
It’s suppose to be in this treasure chest
[bootlegpedia.com]
Merry Christmas to me :-)
Doesn’t mean he wrote it. Played guitar. Is this what everyone is referring?
Anyway, I purchased The Rolling Stones ‘Black Box’ 3 CD’s
It’s suppose to be in this treasure chest
[bootlegpedia.com]
Merry Christmas to me :-)
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: November 23, 2018 18:13
Quote
Turner68
When they started dishing out this dreck, it was pretty clear that it was the beginning of the end for the band.
The lyrics are the stuff of adolescent poetry and the arrangement is plodding.
worse than angie or memory motel (the ballads on IORR's sister albums)
i would pay money to never have to listen to it again.
Yup.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: November 23, 2018 18:34
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Turner68
When they started dishing out this dreck, it was pretty clear that it was the beginning of the end for the band.
The lyrics are the stuff of adolescent poetry and the arrangement is plodding.
worse than angie or memory motel (the ballads on IORR's sister albums)
i would pay money to never have to listen to it again.
Yup.
Ew eee. Cannot you appreciate the slide guitar, the 12 string guitar in the background, nothin’ ?
Play it for a lady friend over candlelight.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
z
()
Date: November 23, 2018 18:49
Quote
35loveQuote
His MajestyQuote
Turner68
When they started dishing out this dreck, it was pretty clear that it was the beginning of the end for the band.
The lyrics are the stuff of adolescent poetry and the arrangement is plodding.
worse than angie or memory motel (the ballads on IORR's sister albums)
i would pay money to never have to listen to it again.
Yup.
Ew eee. Cannot you appreciate the slide guitar, the 12 string guitar in the background, nothin’ ?
Play it for a lady friend over candlelight.
It's a breakup song, 35love.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2018 19:44
Quote
zQuote
35loveQuote
His MajestyQuote
Turner68
When they started dishing out this dreck, it was pretty clear that it was the beginning of the end for the band.
The lyrics are the stuff of adolescent poetry and the arrangement is plodding.
worse than angie or memory motel (the ballads on IORR's sister albums)
i would pay money to never have to listen to it again.
Yup.
Ew eee. Cannot you appreciate the slide guitar, the 12 string guitar in the background, nothin’ ?
Play it for a lady friend over candlelight.
It's a breakup song, 35love.
Wot? Isn't there a next time?
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: November 23, 2018 22:21
beautiful song ………….
Till the next time that we say goodbye
Till the next time we say goodbye
Till the next time that we say goodbye
Till the next time we kiss goodnight
I'll be thinking of you
I'll be thinking of you ………………………………………….
ROCKMAN
Till the next time that we say goodbye
Till the next time we say goodbye
Till the next time that we say goodbye
Till the next time we kiss goodnight
I'll be thinking of you
I'll be thinking of you ………………………………………….
ROCKMAN
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: November 23, 2018 23:25
Never got a break up vibe, say compared to ‘Let Me Go’ (Ha)
So he broke up with her at a movie house 42nd street, it was snowing,darn he thought, she still looks good tho (a treat)
but her cider-vinegar drink she was trying to pass off as elderberry wine and rotten gumbo (Louisiana recipe) were the last straw.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-23 23:26 by 35love.
So he broke up with her at a movie house 42nd street, it was snowing,darn he thought, she still looks good tho (a treat)
but her cider-vinegar drink she was trying to pass off as elderberry wine and rotten gumbo (Louisiana recipe) were the last straw.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-23 23:26 by 35love.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: November 23, 2018 23:28
….I've never said goodbye to any woman
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: November 23, 2018 23:49
Quote
Rockman
….I've never said goodbye to any woman
“Hello, again”
Keith Richards 2018
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: November 23, 2018 23:50
And from our boy Bill Janovitz (I bought his books, he’s excellent)
In his review of the song, Bill Janovitz says, "In the mid-'70s, a 42nd Street movie theater would have been a place of questionable repute and not a very romantic rendezvous. The lyric is unexpectedly complex; the point of view, Jagger as narrator, speaks to the mistress apologetically and with a guilty conscience... In one line on the bridge, Jagger manages to convey empathy, culpability, and frustration: 'I can't go on like this/Can you? Can you?' On paper it seems clear, the narrator is asking out of the relationship (paraphrasing): 'I can't do this, can you?' But the way Jagger sings it, it sounds like he's asking, 'You can't do this anymore, can you?' He's conveying a different meaning altogether, almost as if he is playing both parts in one line."[1]
Recording continued at Jagger's home in Newbury with the use of the Rolling Stones Mobile Studio and finished at Island Recording Studios in London. Jagger, Richards and Mick Taylor each perform acoustic guitar for the piece. Taylor also contributes electric slide guitar to the recording. Nicky Hopkins performs the song's piano. Bill Wyman performs bass while Charlie Watts performs dr
WIKI^
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-23 23:51 by 35love.
In his review of the song, Bill Janovitz says, "In the mid-'70s, a 42nd Street movie theater would have been a place of questionable repute and not a very romantic rendezvous. The lyric is unexpectedly complex; the point of view, Jagger as narrator, speaks to the mistress apologetically and with a guilty conscience... In one line on the bridge, Jagger manages to convey empathy, culpability, and frustration: 'I can't go on like this/Can you? Can you?' On paper it seems clear, the narrator is asking out of the relationship (paraphrasing): 'I can't do this, can you?' But the way Jagger sings it, it sounds like he's asking, 'You can't do this anymore, can you?' He's conveying a different meaning altogether, almost as if he is playing both parts in one line."[1]
Recording continued at Jagger's home in Newbury with the use of the Rolling Stones Mobile Studio and finished at Island Recording Studios in London. Jagger, Richards and Mick Taylor each perform acoustic guitar for the piece. Taylor also contributes electric slide guitar to the recording. Nicky Hopkins performs the song's piano. Bill Wyman performs bass while Charlie Watts performs dr
WIKI^
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-23 23:51 by 35love.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
z
()
Date: November 24, 2018 06:21
Quote
35love
Never got a break up vibe, say compared to ‘Let Me Go’ (Ha)
So he broke up with her at a movie house 42nd street, it was snowing,darn he thought, she still looks good tho (a treat)
but her cider-vinegar drink she was trying to pass off as elderberry wine and rotten gumbo (Louisiana recipe) were the last straw.
The Louisiana recipe bit I see as her trying to come up with a miracle cure for their relationship and his saying 'it doesn't work for me, sorry...' I may be wrong, English isn't even my language...
Yeah it's complex, like most break ups are. Not like Let Me Go, that's not a break up, it's an expulsion
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: November 25, 2018 20:24
[/url]
Let alone Taylor's live performance with Dylan. Simple as that. Masters of War - Wembley live- sounds very Stonesy, albeit a different singer.
Masters of War.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-25 21:01 by TheflyingDutchman.
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Actually that first Taylor solo album sounded a good bit like the Stones. That was really the thing that struck me - just how Stonesy some of the songs were.
Let alone Taylor's live performance with Dylan. Simple as that. Masters of War - Wembley live- sounds very Stonesy, albeit a different singer.
Masters of War.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-25 21:01 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 25, 2018 21:07
Quote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
Palace Revolution 2000
Actually that first Taylor solo album sounded a good bit like the Stones. That was really the thing that struck me - just how Stonesy some of the songs were.
Let alone Taylor's live performance with Dylan. Simple as that. Masters of War - Wembly live- sounds like the Stones, albeit a different singer.
I don't disagree here. For sure the young blues guitarist who joined the Stones in 1969 was not one-to-one player to the musician who departed from the band five years later. Not that any talented guy during that peculiar era would have evolved and changed in five years (in his early twenties), but also that of him being involved in making some of the best rock music ever done and wittnessing some of the strongest rock song writers at their peak working close by surely left some influence on him, being it intentional or not. It was not only him giving something novel and extra to the Stones sound but also that of The Stones giving something to him in return. I am rather sure that despite his own fluidy and melodic style he is famous for, Keith's presence, style and approach playing the guitar alone left a mark on him.
I especially agree that in his approach to Dylan's "Master of War" there is something 'Stonesy'.
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: November 25, 2018 21:31
Quote
DoxaQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
Palace Revolution 2000
Actually that first Taylor solo album sounded a good bit like the Stones. That was really the thing that struck me - just how Stonesy some of the songs were.
Let alone Taylor's live performance with Dylan. Simple as that. Masters of War - Wembly live- sounds like the Stones, albeit a different singer.
Masters of War
I don't disagree here. For sure the young blues guitarist who joined the Stones in 1969 was not one-to-one player to the musician who departed from the band five years later. Not that any talented guy during that peculiar era would have evolved and changed in five years (in his early twenties), but also that of him being involved in making some of the best rock music ever done and wittnessing some of the strongest rock song writers at their peak working close by surely left some influence on him, being it intentional or not. It was not only him giving something novel and extra to the Stones sound but also that of The Stones giving something to him in return. I am rather sure that despite his own fluidy and melodic style he is famous for, Keith's presence, style and approach playing the guitar alone left a mark on him.
I especially agree that in his approach to Dylan's "Master of War" there is something 'Stonesy'.
- Doxa
Re the Stones (Richards) and Taylor: It was a win - win situation, musically. What else can we ask for? They got the best out of each other. But please don't overestimate Richards as a musician. I like him a lot as a rhythm guitarist/ songwriter, but just like Taylor, he had to grow, he stole from the best and played with the best in his chosen field. Music means a lot more than songwriting to me if you get my point. I bet Keith would agree, even while he's more famous than Taylor. .
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-25 22:02 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 26, 2018 11:11
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Re the Stones (Richards) and Taylor: It was a win - win situation, musically. What else can we ask for? They got the best out of each other. But please don't overestimate Richards as a musician. I like him a lot as a rhythm guitarist/ songwriter, but just like Taylor, he had to grow, he stole from the best and played with the best in his chosen field. Music means a lot more than songwriting to me if you get my point. I bet Keith would agree, even while he's more famous than Taylor. .
It was a win win situation for sure, but I don't think I overestimate Richards as a musician. I guess exactly those features in Keith you appreciate in him, leaning towards rhythm and riffs going along with his songwriting skills, both very idiosyncratic, I reckon making an impression for Taylor as well. Who wouldn't have been impressed by that? Surely Keith was no any Jimi Hendrix but he had his own assets and a strong intuition and determination in his doings. But yeah, surely Taylor's presence affect also Keith for leaning more towards the rhythm guitar department since having such a beautiful lead guitarist in the band. In that I agree that they "got the best out of each other", despite I know some Keith Richards fans feeling that due to Taylor Keith got more one-dimensional (not playing any longer so much leads, slide, etc.). In a way one could say that Taylor had an indirect role in making the 'riff master', making rhythm guitar to be played almost like a lead guitar and to be recognized as a key element of a rock and roll band, as we know Keith Richards to be. No matter how good Keith over-all is as a guitar player, I think the biggest impact he has done and what he will be remembered for in the history of rock guitar is that of making a rhythm guitar shine, which is a helluva achievement. The signature Open G belongs to that box.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 11:20 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 26, 2018 11:38
You need to be more than Jimi Hendrix to write a song like Paint It, Black - let alone the fantastic riff. Can't be overestimated - what am I reading here!
How did Taylor make Keith, the lead guitarist in the Stones, improve and top Paint It, Black?
That song has all eras within itself, actually: The 60s, the riffmaster, the melodies they sought so hard in the 80s and beyond - without sounding dated. Oh, and it's their most popular song to this day.
One word: Perfection.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 11:49 by DandelionPowderman.
How did Taylor make Keith, the lead guitarist in the Stones, improve and top Paint It, Black?
That song has all eras within itself, actually: The 60s, the riffmaster, the melodies they sought so hard in the 80s and beyond - without sounding dated. Oh, and it's their most popular song to this day.
One word: Perfection.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 11:49 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 26, 2018 14:29
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You need to be more than Jimi Hendrix to write a song like Paint It, Black - let alone the fantastic riff. Can't be overestimated - what am I reading here!
How did Taylor make Keith, the lead guitarist in the Stones, improve and top Paint It, Black?
That song has all eras within itself, actually: The 60s, the riffmaster, the melodies they sought so hard in the 80s and beyond.
One word: Perfection.
Sorry, but I really don't understand what you try to say here, Dandie. What "Paint It Black" (a perfection indeed as you say) has to do with in discussing Taylor/Richards interaction and dynamics? That Richards Taylor get to know and to work with was into different things than at the time when he wrote "Paint It Black" (remember, it was the 60's and the times where changing rapidly), and this tendency continued and stengthened during Taylor's years in the band.
Surely Keith had written some excellent and iconic riffs before, including the world's most famous and recognizable one ever, but I think he really mastered his art in that department when he started using chords - and many times with open tunings - as the vehicle of those riffs that started to constitute the whole song. "Jumpin Jack Flash" and "Street Fighting Man" were the first explosion of that new innovation and apprach. If before that a 'riff' was something catchy to be added to the song a'la "The Last Time" (hi Brian!), "Satisfaction" and "Get Off Of My Cloud" (hello Brian again!) or go along the melody line like "Paint It Black" - and basically just a catchy run of single notes, a'la "Oh Pretty Woman" or "Day Tripper" - the new approach reconstructed the whole nature and role of a 'riff' within a song structure. Roughly, if it had earlier belonged more to 'lead guitar' department - icing the cake - now it was closer to the foundation of the song, that of traditional rhythm guitar. What people call as the 'golden era' or the 'Big Four', as the representation of the distinctive or classical Rolling Stones sound, was also that of Keith mastering this new approach, EXILE being like a final thesis. After that 1968-72 era reputation of 'riffmaster' was finally laid and the sound of The Rolling Stones was about completed - something easily recognizable ever since. When years later a thing like "Start Me Up" hit the airwaves, everybody immediately knew exactly the reference. That sound. It's the riffmaster there.
Of course, as I noted, the new approach in writing and leaning towards more rhythn guitar (in riffs) had alraedy started before Taylor joined in, but I think it is safe to claim that Taylor's presence and his excellence within the boundaries of traditional lead guitar department strengthened the tendency. We can hear the change in dynamics if we follow the evolution of their guitar co-work through the tours from 1969 to 1973. This cohers with Keith's claim in LIFE that he started to write songs 'Mick Taylor in his mind'. What else can that mean but that of leaving room for Taylor's lead guitar him taking more care of the bottom? (That said, I think Keith's creative juices had started to dry out by the end of Taylor years, be the reason whatever.)
I think after Keith having mastered his act and created a distinctive sound of his own (which cohers with the recognizable sound of The Rolling Stones), and thereby earned his reputation, that also affects to the way we nowadays approach those older recordings, such as "Satisfaction" and "Paint It Black" (and like it was difficult for ages for people to accept that the riff of "The Last Time" was actually Brian's). Now we hear there a young riff master and interpret the outcome in those terms. But hadn't we get to know the man mastering his approach, those would be 'just' great and iconic riffs made by a great writer, but without a typical or needed signature. Like we would listen to "Oh Pretty Woman" or "Day Tripper" we would not hear that 'oh, one must be a riffmaster to do that'. No, we would just hear a catchy riff. Keith earned that reputation later.
(I would go so far to claim that had Keith not ever mastered his signature style but, say, having disappeared from the sight after THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES, he would be now mostly remembered as a great song-writer, who happen also to be a rather good guitarist, for example, doing nice Chuck Berry solos, and coming occasionally with such iconic riff as "Satisfaction". But it would be pretty hard to imagine that out of his own hey-day from 1963 to 1967 his guitar accomplishments would be something to inspire rock musicians for generations to come or to think him as some sort of "riff master". Actually in that case I don't think his reputation as a guitarist would be much bigger than what Brian Jones enjoys nowadays).
Lastly, if is the Jimi Hendrix comparison that bothers you, I should have added "as a guitarist", but I think that was obvious without saying.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 14:40 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 26, 2018 14:53
I just wanted to highlight how great the songs they wrote were by 1966, as well as how great they played. It was a response on Dutchman's claim, that Taylor made Keith a better player.
On the contrary, I think Keith was a better player round PIB. He still wrote whole songs, his head wasn't messed up and he focused on all the facets of a guitar player's role. The ultimate peak is to be found in Rock'n'Roll Circus, where he carries the whole guitar department.
I love the open G-stuff as much as the next fan, but it became a sleeping pillow for him creatively and experssion-wise. Instead of improving, he now needed people like Taylor to finish the brilliant songs they made during 1971-1974 (In 1968 and 1969 he still could). Surely, there are exceptions on Exile and the other albums, but it was not common practise anymore.
And I think this have held him back ever since, creatively. The focus was shifted: To that of making a great riff + a little more, instead of fleshed out songs. He's still great, but we simply don't get stuff like Paint It Black, Dandelion or Ruby Tuesday anymore. The quality on, say, Exile, is great, of course - but it's not necessarily on the same level musicially, imo.
So, Keith Richards the all round guitar player and songsmith somewhat waned, rather than excelled, after 1969, imo.
I know this may look ridiculous, but think about it for a while.
So the «Taylor made him a better guitarist»-legend is, with all due respect, simply not true. His focus shifted, but that's not the same.
On the contrary, I think Keith was a better player round PIB. He still wrote whole songs, his head wasn't messed up and he focused on all the facets of a guitar player's role. The ultimate peak is to be found in Rock'n'Roll Circus, where he carries the whole guitar department.
I love the open G-stuff as much as the next fan, but it became a sleeping pillow for him creatively and experssion-wise. Instead of improving, he now needed people like Taylor to finish the brilliant songs they made during 1971-1974 (In 1968 and 1969 he still could). Surely, there are exceptions on Exile and the other albums, but it was not common practise anymore.
And I think this have held him back ever since, creatively. The focus was shifted: To that of making a great riff + a little more, instead of fleshed out songs. He's still great, but we simply don't get stuff like Paint It Black, Dandelion or Ruby Tuesday anymore. The quality on, say, Exile, is great, of course - but it's not necessarily on the same level musicially, imo.
So, Keith Richards the all round guitar player and songsmith somewhat waned, rather than excelled, after 1969, imo.
I know this may look ridiculous, but think about it for a while.
So the «Taylor made him a better guitarist»-legend is, with all due respect, simply not true. His focus shifted, but that's not the same.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: November 26, 2018 15:09
Quote
DoxaQuote
TheflyingDutchman
Re the Stones (Richards) and Taylor: It was a win - win situation, musically. What else can we ask for? They got the best out of each other. But please don't overestimate Richards as a musician. I like him a lot as a rhythm guitarist/ songwriter, but just like Taylor, he had to grow, he stole from the best and played with the best in his chosen field. Music means a lot more than songwriting to me if you get my point. I bet Keith would agree, even while he's more famous than Taylor. .
It was a win win situation for sure, but I don't think I overestimate Richards as a musician. I guess exactly those features in Keith you appreciate in him, leaning towards rhythm and riffs going along with his songwriting skills, both very idiosyncratic, I reckon making an impression for Taylor as well. Who wouldn't have been impressed by that? Surely Keith was no any Jimi Hendrix but he had his own assets and a strong intuition and determination in his doings. But yeah, surely Taylor's presence affect also Keith for leaning more towards the rhythm guitar department since having such a beautiful lead guitarist in the band. In that I agree that they "got the best out of each other", despite I know some Keith Richards fans feeling that due to Taylor Keith got more one-dimensional (not playing any longer so much leads, slide, etc.). In a way one could say that Taylor had an indirect role in making the 'riff master', making rhythm guitar to be played almost like a lead guitar and to be recognized as a key element of a rock and roll band, as we know Keith Richards to be. No matter how good Keith over-all is as a guitar player, I think the biggest impact he has done and what he will be remembered for in the history of rock guitar is that of making a rhythm guitar shine, which is a helluva achievement. The signature Open G belongs to that box.
- Doxa
Yeah, sure, I agree with almost everything you write here. I would recommend every (beginning) guitarist to listen to Keith, dig what rhythm guitar in rock is all about!! He made the five string open G very popular- I don't know if he invented it-there are contradictions both from Keith and Ry Cooder on this subject. Keith is a limited player, but within these limitations he turned out to be a very creative guy over the years, so here I go: There are roughly two kind of guitar players: The ones that have a limited vocabulary but a very distinct sound, and need songs to expres themselves and second: the ones that you put on a chair solamente and can play and improvise for one hour without repeating themselves, but stil with a distinctive sound. I just find the second type of player more interesting, hence my remark: music means more then songwriting to me, something that some persistent posters here never seem to understand when it comes to Keith, songwriting and the Stones.
The Stones can sound like the Stones even without Keith, any Stones member actually, songs have proved it, and Keith likely didn't show up with an entire score for a song: he needed his music friends to get the creative proces and songwriting going on. There will be quite some exceptions. WTF, maybe I'm just getting old and soure. I sometimes even wonder if I'm still a Stones fan. The way many people put Keith and the Stones on a pedestal is almost hilarious. Keith's and Jagger's charisma , and smart PR helps of course. I plee guilty as well btw, hence Mick Taylor, but that goal is over by now.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: November 26, 2018 15:32
Quote
DoxaQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
Palace Revolution 2000
Actually that first Taylor solo album sounded a good bit like the Stones. That was really the thing that struck me - just how Stonesy some of the songs were.
Let alone Taylor's live performance with Dylan. Simple as that. Masters of War - Wembly live- sounds like the Stones, albeit a different singer.
I don't disagree here. For sure the young blues guitarist who joined the Stones in 1969 was not one-to-one player to the musician who departed from the band five years later. Not that any talented guy during that peculiar era would have evolved and changed in five years (in his early twenties), but also that of him being involved in making some of the best rock music ever done and wittnessing some of the strongest rock song writers at their peak working close by surely left some influence on him, being it intentional or not. It was not only him giving something novel and extra to the Stones sound but also that of The Stones giving something to him in return. I am rather sure that despite his own fluidy and melodic style he is famous for, Keith's presence, style and approach playing the guitar alone left a mark on him.
I especially agree that in his approach to Dylan's "Master of War" there is something 'Stonesy'.
- Doxa
Yeah Doxa, it's pretty incredible to look at images of Taylor at the start, and then at the ending. It reminds me kind of when there is a president elected in US White House - those guys seem to age a lifetime in just days.
Taylor obviously was very young, so he would have still been changing. But at the epicenter of the Stones at their height of powers. And drug use too.
There is that one image of Taylor and Keith somewhere on the road in 73 maybe where they are at a diner booth; looks like Keith is scarfing up some pancakes, and Taylor is smoking. That is where Taylor always looks beat up to me LOL
I agree with what you say about Keith's rhythm playing later on here.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: November 26, 2018 17:58
You could say that open tunings limited Keith's creativity during that period but the reason you try open tunings is that you get bored with standard tunings and you find out its easier to play once you find the chords you need and that what Keith did - He mastered taking songs and putting them in open tunings.
I do think MT kept Keith on his chops when they played live because of MT's counter melodies against Keith's playing. All Down The Line and Street Fighting Man, Rambler and others Keith had to keep up with what MT was playing.
I do think MT kept Keith on his chops when they played live because of MT's counter melodies against Keith's playing. All Down The Line and Street Fighting Man, Rambler and others Keith had to keep up with what MT was playing.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 26, 2018 18:09
Quote
OpenG
You could say that open tunings limited Keith's creativity during that period but the reason you try open tunings is that you get bored with standard tunings and you find out its easier to play once you find the chords you need and that what Keith did - He mastered taking songs and putting them in open tunings.
I do think MT kept Keith on his chops when they played live because of MT's counter melodies against Keith's playing. All Down The Line and Street Fighting Man, Rambler and others Keith had to keep up with what MT was playing.
But what Keith played during those years on stage was the very foundation that Taylor played off. IMO, that's an easier task for a guitarist, who used to be the lead player - and was used to taking care of all facets of a guitarist's role.
It's also interesting that Keith kept the open tunings to a minimum between 1974 and 1989 for new material. That gave us tracks like Beast Of Burden, Down In The Hole, Shattered and Tie You Up - all songs where not only rhythm and lead-interplay was important, but also rhythm, licks, riffs and lead parts were featured within one single guitar track (much like how Keith played in the 60s - for instance on Stupid Girl on Aftermath).
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: November 26, 2018 18:22
d by: DandelionPowderman ()
Date: November 26, 2018 18:09
Quote
OpenG
You could say that open tunings limited Keith's creativity during that period but the reason you try open tunings is that you get bored with standard tunings and you find out its easier to play once you find the chords you need and that what Keith did - He mastered taking songs and putting them in open tunings.
I do think MT kept Keith on his chops when they played live because of MT's counter melodies against Keith's playing. All Down The Line and Street Fighting Man, Rambler and others Keith had to keep up with what MT was playing.
But what Keith played during those years on stage was the very foundation that Taylor played off. IMO, that's an easier task for a guitarist, who used to be the lead player - and was used to taking care of all facets of a guitarist's role.
It's also interesting that Keith kept the open tunings to a minimum between 1974 and 1989 for new material. That gave us tracks like Beast Of Burden, Down In The Hole, Shattered and Tie You Up - all songs where not only rhythm and lead-interplay was important, but also rhythm, licks, riffs and lead parts were featured within one single guitar track (much lik
DP - I am not diminishing Keith's overall guitar playing with MT - I agree Keith did create and play live many songs in standard tuning after MT left.
I just think that anyone who played with MT during that period had to stay focused to his brilliance as a live player. Its human nature when I go jogging with someone running 6 or 7 minute miles I sure have to stay focused and keep up the pace LOL.
Date: November 26, 2018 18:09
Quote
OpenG
You could say that open tunings limited Keith's creativity during that period but the reason you try open tunings is that you get bored with standard tunings and you find out its easier to play once you find the chords you need and that what Keith did - He mastered taking songs and putting them in open tunings.
I do think MT kept Keith on his chops when they played live because of MT's counter melodies against Keith's playing. All Down The Line and Street Fighting Man, Rambler and others Keith had to keep up with what MT was playing.
But what Keith played during those years on stage was the very foundation that Taylor played off. IMO, that's an easier task for a guitarist, who used to be the lead player - and was used to taking care of all facets of a guitarist's role.
It's also interesting that Keith kept the open tunings to a minimum between 1974 and 1989 for new material. That gave us tracks like Beast Of Burden, Down In The Hole, Shattered and Tie You Up - all songs where not only rhythm and lead-interplay was important, but also rhythm, licks, riffs and lead parts were featured within one single guitar track (much lik
DP - I am not diminishing Keith's overall guitar playing with MT - I agree Keith did create and play live many songs in standard tuning after MT left.
I just think that anyone who played with MT during that period had to stay focused to his brilliance as a live player. Its human nature when I go jogging with someone running 6 or 7 minute miles I sure have to stay focused and keep up the pace LOL.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: November 27, 2018 00:47
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You need to be more than Jimi Hendrix to write a song like Paint It, Black - let alone the fantastic riff. Can't be overestimated - what am I reading here!
How did Taylor make Keith, the lead guitarist in the Stones, improve and top Paint It, Black?
That song has all eras within itself, actually: The 60s, the riffmaster, the melodies they sought so hard in the 80s and beyond - without sounding dated. Oh, and it's their most popular song to this day.
One word: Perfection.
The riff and thus main melody is partly nicked.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 02:26 by His Majesty.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: November 27, 2018 01:36
I'd say Keith's peak as a guitarist was in the 1980's. By then, he could play anything he wanted to.
As noted above though, Keith's journey as a guitarist is very much related to his journey as a song writer. The whole set up in 60's meant Keith was responsible for a high % of the stones rhythm guitars, lead guitars, songs, chords and melodic ideas. That is bringing a lot to a band and it's music.
A defacto main musical director for atleast 1964 - 1969.
Brian's multi instrumentalist role and then becoming a phantom band member forced Keith to solidify a style and way of playing that was already hinted at much earlier. They were able to play as a 4 piece live and in the studio during this era for a reason. That being, Keith was the main engine and could cover all bases enough to make it work.
I think the balance shifted once Jagger found his feet on guitar enough to write songs on his own and further still when Taylor came on board, upped the playing levels, took on a lot of the lead playing and gave Jagger another source of inspiration for writing within the band seperate from Keith. Unlike before, I can't imagine them pulling off playing live as a 4 piece (without Taylor) during this era.
Maybe Keith can be over estimated as a guitarist, but not as a musician. He's created lots of musical magic from pretty basic ingredients.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 02:32 by His Majesty.
As noted above though, Keith's journey as a guitarist is very much related to his journey as a song writer. The whole set up in 60's meant Keith was responsible for a high % of the stones rhythm guitars, lead guitars, songs, chords and melodic ideas. That is bringing a lot to a band and it's music.
A defacto main musical director for atleast 1964 - 1969.
Brian's multi instrumentalist role and then becoming a phantom band member forced Keith to solidify a style and way of playing that was already hinted at much earlier. They were able to play as a 4 piece live and in the studio during this era for a reason. That being, Keith was the main engine and could cover all bases enough to make it work.
I think the balance shifted once Jagger found his feet on guitar enough to write songs on his own and further still when Taylor came on board, upped the playing levels, took on a lot of the lead playing and gave Jagger another source of inspiration for writing within the band seperate from Keith. Unlike before, I can't imagine them pulling off playing live as a 4 piece (without Taylor) during this era.
Maybe Keith can be over estimated as a guitarist, but not as a musician. He's created lots of musical magic from pretty basic ingredients.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 02:32 by His Majesty.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 27, 2018 14:09
Quote
His Majesty
I'd say Keith's peak as a guitarist was in the 1980's. By then, he could play anything he wanted to.
As noted above though, Keith's journey as a guitarist is very much related to his journey as a song writer. The whole set up in 60's meant Keith was responsible for a high % of the stones rhythm guitars, lead guitars, songs, chords and melodic ideas. That is bringing a lot to a band and it's music.
A defacto main musical director for atleast 1964 - 1969.
Brian's multi instrumentalist role and then becoming a phantom band member forced Keith to solidify a style and way of playing that was already hinted at much earlier. They were able to play as a 4 piece live and in the studio during this era for a reason. That being, Keith was the main engine and could cover all bases enough to make it work.
I think the balance shifted once Jagger found his feet on guitar enough to write songs on his own and further still when Taylor came on board, upped the playing levels, took on a lot of the lead playing and gave Jagger another source of inspiration for writing within the band seperate from Keith. Unlike before, I can't imagine them pulling off playing live as a 4 piece (without Taylor) during this era.
Maybe Keith can be over estimated as a guitarist, but not as a musician. He's created lots of musical magic from pretty basic ingredients.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: November 27, 2018 14:28
I don't think you can overestimate Keith as a musician or as a guitarist .
He may not be what some folks look for in a virtuoso guitar player [ie a "shredder"]
... but his touch, tone and unique timing are sublime.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 14:29 by Spud.
He may not be what some folks look for in a virtuoso guitar player [ie a "shredder"]
... but his touch, tone and unique timing are sublime.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 14:29 by Spud.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: November 27, 2018 14:35
Very interesting read, this thread. Thanks Doxa, palace, Dandie ,HM, open g et al. I just wanna add that I view Keith as a typical introvert guy who saught comfort in the guitar and really turned those Berry riffs into something better. Brian was the same with the blues and thats why they were the best. I think the songwriting was very much a forced method by ALO. ”If you cant come up with the hits, we’ll steal them”. The Beatles did just that when they got stuck. I feel fine was based on two songs (watch your step and what d i say). Lennons riff, he created it. The Last time is based on freedom highway and I feel fine (brians riff, he created something new no doubt)Satisfaction was a follow up and stolen from Nowhere to run ( again, a new riff created by Keith who when asked about it probably just mocked Paul for dreaming up Yesterday - which is based on Georgia on my mind). PIB and UMT were both ”stolen” but changed around and re-created by the whole group, Keith and Brian and Mick but also Bill and Charlie. JJF: Keith steals from Bill who based his riff on Satisfaction. Bill created something new but not out of thin air. SFTD - based on Dear mr fantasy, YCAGWYW, based on Feelin alright, Gimme Shelter was perhaps based on I dont know why (wonder) and Keith did a sponge job on Cooder. Just listen to the guitars on Let it bleed and especially Rambler. And yet it’s something new, studio creations if you like.
Ok Im done. For now.
Ok Im done. For now.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 27, 2018 14:53
Quote
Redhotcarpet
Very interesting read, this thread. Thanks Doxa, palace, Dandie ,HM, open g et al. I just wanna add that I view Keith as a typical introvert guy who saught comfort in the guitar and really turned those Berry riffs into something better. Brian was the same with the blues and thats why they were the best. I think the songwriting was very much a forced method by ALO. ”If you cant come up with the hits, we’ll steal them”. The Beatles did just that when they got stuck. I feel fine was based on two songs (watch your step and what d i say). Lennons riff, he created it. The Last time is based on freedom highway and I feel fine (brians riff, he created something new no doubt)Satisfaction was a follow up and stolen from Nowhere to run ( again, a new riff created by Keith who when asked about it probably just mocked Paul for dreaming up Yesterday - which is based on Georgia on my mind). PIB and UMT were both ”stolen” but changed around and re-created by the whole group, Keith and Brian and Mick but also Bill and Charlie. JJF: Keith steals from Bill who based his riff on Satisfaction. Bill created something new but not out of thin air. SFTD - based on Dear mr fantasy, YCAGWYW, based on Feelin alright, Gimme Shelter was perhaps based on I dont know why (wonder) and Keith did a sponge job on Cooder. Just listen to the guitars on Let it bleed and especially Rambler. And yet it’s something new, studio creations if you like.
Ok Im done. For now.
I'm sure artists and musicians work in different ways, but their common practise is clear: They all need inspiration, which never materialise out of thin air.
All the big ones from the 60s let themselves be inspired by their peers and their heroes, or by what was going on in the world around them. Mick and Keith were no exceptions, of course.
However, there is a big difference between a riff, a chord sequence, a lyrical hook and a finished song. That's where I think your analysis is a little shallow. Making a finished song takes a lot of work. If you have a riff sounding a bit like Nowhere To Run, fine - or a chord sequence like Mr. Fantasy, good - the question is what are you going to do with it? You might not even know where you heard it until the song is done. The artists they might consciously or unconsciously heard it from probably didn't write it from scratch, either. Let's face it: The E – D – A chord-sequence was not invented in the late 60s..
The riff is often the very first thing you got. Crafting songs like Paint It Black or Back Street Girl takes a lot more than that. It's called songwriting, and Mick and Keith were quite good at it
No need for diminishing. Did I read a stab at Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting as well? That's priceless!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 14:56 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Track Talk: Till The Next Goodbye
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: November 27, 2018 16:41
They clearly nicked stuff, but certainly made it something else and their own as well.
Satisfaction being a perfect example. A bit of the horns from Nowhere To Run, a lyric line from Chuck, the build up from Please, Please Me...
But, Satisfaction as the world conquering song did not exist before those two sat down and made it in to something new.
Then they all as a band made it in to something for forever.
Song writers, catalysts, instigators. The spark that ignites the flame is those two actively seeking out something new.
...
Another aspect that is vital is that the song writing gives Mick and Keith and eventually the band something with which to proves themselves in a very competitive market. Without the in house writing duo, they might have ended up like the Animals. Some great singles (written by others), but patchy albums and a precarious future.
ALO made the right moves and he, we and they lucked out in that Mick and especially Keith got the writing bug big time and were soon knocking out the essentials of what would become hits.
Satisfaction being a perfect example. A bit of the horns from Nowhere To Run, a lyric line from Chuck, the build up from Please, Please Me...
But, Satisfaction as the world conquering song did not exist before those two sat down and made it in to something new.
Then they all as a band made it in to something for forever.
Song writers, catalysts, instigators. The spark that ignites the flame is those two actively seeking out something new.
...
Another aspect that is vital is that the song writing gives Mick and Keith and eventually the band something with which to proves themselves in a very competitive market. Without the in house writing duo, they might have ended up like the Animals. Some great singles (written by others), but patchy albums and a precarious future.
ALO made the right moves and he, we and they lucked out in that Mick and especially Keith got the writing bug big time and were soon knocking out the essentials of what would become hits.
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