Mick and Keith decided to become a guitar driven, harder rockening band, because this kind of music was in demand. Mick Taylor has almost nothing to do with that, he was never the man to decide which way to go. It´s Mick and Keith and will always be. Any other skillful guitar player could have done what Taylor has done. And Taylor is a blues-based player, not so much a classic rocker imho. So if the Stones turned from Rhytm n Blues to harder Rock, it is hardly Taylor´s influence.

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Brstonesfan

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71Tele
I read the comments about not liking or missing Bill or Mick Taylor and I am quite astounded. Perhaps these folks should have a separate site for Vegas-era Stones only.

exactly....it's incomprehensible how any true Stones fan does not understand or recognize that MT allowed the band to expand it's musical boundaries and made them a guitar driven, harder rocking band...

How did Taylor make the Stones a 'guitar driven' band?

What had been driving the band's sound previously?

.....

Olly.

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Olly

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Brstonesfan

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71Tele
I read the comments about not liking or missing Bill or Mick Taylor and I am quite astounded. Perhaps these folks should have a separate site for Vegas-era Stones only.

exactly....it's incomprehensible how any true Stones fan does not understand or recognize that MT allowed the band to expand it's musical boundaries and made them a guitar driven, harder rocking band...

How did Taylor make the Stones a 'guitar driven' band?

What had been driving the band's sound previously?

Keith of course, but if he had to do it on his own it would have become rather stale on the long term, live, on stage. He's no Hendrix. Thank God we had Taylor.

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HMS
Mick and Keith decided to become a guitar driven, harder rockening band, because this kind of music was in demand. Mick Taylor has almost nothing to do with that, he was never the man to decide which way to go. It´s Mick and Keith and will always be. Any other skillful guitar player could have done what Taylor has done. And Taylor is a blues-based player, not so much a classic rocker imho. So if the Stones turned from Rhytm n Blues to harder Rock, it is hardly Taylor´s influence.

exactly.

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Turner68

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HMS
Mick and Keith decided to become a guitar driven, harder rockening band, because this kind of music was in demand. Mick Taylor has almost nothing to do with that, he was never the man to decide which way to go. It´s Mick and Keith and will always be. Any other skillful guitar player could have done what Taylor has done. And Taylor is a blues-based player, not so much a classic rocker imho. So if the Stones turned from Rhytm n Blues to harder Rock, it is hardly Taylor´s influence.

exactly.

I think you guys are forgetting that the Stones were doing their own thing back then, following their own muses so to speak. Doubtful they were doing anything because it was "in demand". Who really knows how much influence Taylor had on the musical direction, since they tended to jam on songs for hours to get the right feel back then I'm guessing it was more than you might think. Yes, Mick and Keith were writing most the tunes but I believe Taylor certainly helped make them work so well.

Using your flawed logic we could say any skillful drummer and bass player could have done what Bill and Charlie did, it was all Mick and Keith after all. Even Mick admits their best music was made with Taylor around and I believe it was because of him not in spite of him. Just like Bill and Charlie, he was a very important part of the formula.

I wish I could state it like that.

Doing their own thing back then, following their muses? It´s not that simple, I believe. If you look close, the Stones in some way always delivered what was "in demand"

First Rhythm n Blues, followed by Pop-Songs. Then the psychodelic experiments in answer to the Beatles and Pink Floyd. They became a Rockband, when Rock was in demand. Sure, they developed their own unique style, but always kept an eye open for what was trendy. With Prog-Rock-Bands having success, the stones included long guitar solos in their music. They included funk, when funk was popular.

Then came Punk and the Stones reacted with songs we can find on Some Girls and Emotional Rescue. They included even Disco. If they made their own thing then at least not without being aware of what was going on musically. They always asked what sells best at the moment.

If they really made their best music with Taylor around, than rather because they reached their creative peak at that point than because of Taylor hanging around. Masterpieces like Sticky Fingers or Exile would exist even if Taylor was never born. Some people said the Stones were washed-up without Brian Jones, but they became more successful AFTER Brian Jones. AND the became even more successful AFTER Mick Taylor. Its mainly Mick and Keith, all other members were/are soldiers, even Charlie is a soldier, just like Bill was a soldier. Anyway, Mick Taylor was not the main reason for the Stones being able to create some of the greatest music in Rock History.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-19 22:33 by HMS.

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HMS
Doing their own thing back then, following their muses? It´s not that simple, I believe. If you look close, the Stones in some way always delivered what was "in demand"

First Rhythm n Blues, followed by Pop-Songs. Then the psychodelic experiments in answer to the Beatles and Pink Floyd. They became a Rockband, when Rock was in demand. Sure, they developed their own unique style, but always kept an eye open for what was trendy. With Prog-Rock-Bands having success, the stones included long guitar solos in their music. The included funk, when funk was popular.

Then came Punk and the Stones reacted with songs we can find on Some Girls and Emotional Rescue. The included even Disco. If they made their own thing than at least not without being aware of what was going on musically. They always asked what sells best at the moment.

We were specifically talking about the MT period, but yeah they seemed to care about what was going on in the musical world during the Some Girls punk disco period and perhaps during the period where Beatle-esque pop was all the rage, but when they emerged from Satanic Majesties and decided to put out Beggars Banquest, Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers and Exile I would be pretty hard pressed to say they were trying to meet some demand. They were indeed following their muses and leading the pack, imo.

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24FPS
I think the problem the older fans, like myself, have, is that they didn't replace Bill with a rock bassist. For all his alleged technical proficiency, Darryl Jones plays, with the Stones, like a soulless hired gun. I don't think the Stones themselves really understood how good Bill was. Although I think you'll notice going over albums like Goats Head Soup that Mick seemed to make sure Bill was on most of his songs to give them the highest quality, especially in the melody. (You'll notice now that Mick must not value Darryl's bass playing that much if he's willing to push him aside and play it himself.)

I think Charlie said he didn't miss Bill's playing as much as he missed his sense of humor. And after Bill quit, and he had to go over some parts with Darryl, he realized how clever Bill had been. So don't go overboard on Charlie picking Darryl. Charlie doesn't seem to hear what went on in front of him for three decades.

One thing I have come to realize is that self-promotion is the one skill that is consistently rewarded. Bill is fairly self-effacing, and my take is that in an environment shared with a couple of larger-than-life figures it was unfortunately all too easy to overlook what he was actually doing.

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HMS
Doing their own thing back then, following their muses? It´s not that simple, I believe. If you look close, the Stones in some way always delivered what was "in demand"

First Rhythm n Blues, followed by Pop-Songs. Then the psychodelic experiments in answer to the Beatles and Pink Floyd. They became a Rockband, when Rock was in demand. Sure, they developed their own unique style, but always kept an eye open for what was trendy. With Prog-Rock-Bands having success, the stones included long guitar solos in their music. They included funk, when funk was popular.

Then came Punk and the Stones reacted with songs we can find on Some Girls and Emotional Rescue. They included even Disco. If they made their own thing then at least not without being aware of what was going on musically. They always asked what sells best at the moment.

If they really made their best music with Taylor around, than rather because they reached their creative peak at that point than because of Taylor hanging around. Masterpieces like Sticky Fingers or Exile would exist even if Taylor was never born. Some people said the Stones were washed-up without Brian Jones, but they became more successful AFTER Brian Jones. AND the became even more successful AFTER Mick Taylor. Its mainly Mick and Keith, all other members were/are soldiers, even Charlie is a soldier, just like Bill was a soldier. Anyway, Mick Taylor was not the main reason for the Stones being able to create some of the greatest music in Rock History.

Yeah, its not too late you know - Here's hoping The Glimmers tell Ronnie and Charlie they can stay home on the next tour, and we can have the true unadulterated Stones.. Just Jagger and Richards, and some really ace musicians in tow that keep their own musical personalities totally in check - that's the ticket right there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-19 22:48 by SweetThing.

My view is that Mick and Keith should've put Bill into the credits because without Bill there possibly wouldn't be JJF (or it would exist in different form). People say that Bill's not a good song writer and I agree. His solo songs are quite mediocre but I believe every cloud has a silver lining. Mick and Keith must have realised then that they have a great back-to-the-roots song in their hands and Bill had hit the once-in-a-lifetime jackpot. If he had not played that riff that day then Mick and Keith would have probably never had written such a great song. I agree that The Glimmer Twins wrote most of it but they should have showed their gratitude to Bill for inventing such an iconic riff. I put Keef's stories aside because I don't buy everything he says. I trust Bill and I can't see a reason why he would lie about this. It's Keith who tends to stretch the truth

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kowalski
Interview (in French) of Bill Wyman in Gonzai : [gonzai.com]

No parlez vouz francais. Can someone help out here and tell us what the interview says? Thank you. Merci.

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24FPS

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kowalski
Interview (in French) of Bill Wyman in Gonzai : [gonzai.com]

No parlez vouz francais. Can someone help out here and tell us what the interview says? Thank you. Merci.

"Je ecrite Jumping Jack Flash" = I wrote Jumping Jack Flash and Paint it Black too.
Sil vousez plese et bon nuit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-21 00:37 by RipThisBone.

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Single Malt
My view is that Mick and Keith should've put Bill into the credits because without Bill there possibly wouldn't be JJF (or it would exist in different form). People say that Bill's not a good song writer and I agree. His solo songs are quite mediocre but I believe every cloud has a silver lining. Mick and Keith must have realised then that they have a great back-to-the-roots song in their hands and Bill had hit the once-in-a-lifetime jackpot. If he had not played that riff that day then Mick and Keith would have probably never had written such a great song. I agree that The Glimmer Twins wrote most of it but they should have showed their gratitude to Bill for inventing such an iconic riff. I put Keef's stories aside because I don't buy everything he says. I trust Bill and I can't see a reason why he would lie about this. It's Keith who tends to stretch the truth

Listen here between 4:00-6:00 about writing credits both for Brian and Bill.

[www.youtube.com]

Writing credits - for example on Ruby Tuesday, lots of thought who wrote the song. Probably the same with JJF.

Multi-instrumentalist Brian Jones played recorder, and the double bass was played jointly by bassist Bill Wyman (pressing the strings against the fingerboard) and Keith Richards (bowing the strings). According to Keith Richards in a 1971 Rolling Stone interview, he wrote the song in a Los Angeles hotel room in early 1966 about a groupie he knew;[1] he has also stated that it was about Linda Keith, his girlfriend in the mid-1960s.

"That's a wonderful song," Mick Jagger told Jann Wenner in 1995. "It's just a nice melody, really. And a lovely lyric. Neither of which I wrote, but I always enjoy singing it. Bill Wyman states in Rolling with the Stones that the lyrics were completely written by Keith Richards with help from Brian Jones on the musical composition.However, Marianne Faithfull recalls it differently; according to her, Brian Jones presented an early version of this melody to the rest of the Rolling Stones. According to Victor Bockris, Richards came up with the basic track and the words and finished the song with Jones in the studio.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-21 20:25 by mtaylor.

Bill Wyman: Je Suis un Rockstar Songwriter

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Single Malt
My view is that Mick and Keith should've put Bill into the credits because without Bill there possibly wouldn't be JJF (or it would exist in different form). People say that Bill's not a good song writer and I agree. His solo songs are quite mediocre but I believe every cloud has a silver lining. Mick and Keith must have realised then that they have a great back-to-the-roots song in their hands and Bill had hit the once-in-a-lifetime jackpot. If he had not played that riff that day then Mick and Keith would have probably never had written such a great song. I agree that The Glimmer Twins wrote most of it but they should have showed their gratitude to Bill for inventing such an iconic riff. I put Keef's stories aside because I don't buy everything he says. I trust Bill and I can't see a reason why he would lie about this. It's Keith who tends to stretch the truth

As has been said before: there is nothing particular iconic about the riff (i.e. the notes itself). The story goes Bill played it on a piano. It's a pretty obvious sequence of notes when you play a blues-scale.
What made the song iconic is how it sounds on guitar, the particular rhythm it's played with, and how Mick Jagger sings on top of that. How much input Bill had in all of that we don't know.
But getting credits for playing those 3 notes in that order is like getting credits for telling Shakespeare: "boy meets girl and they fall in love".

Haha. My my. Well Mick and Keith absolutely loved what Bill was playing on keyboards. To them that was something really special. With Brian on guitar and Charlie on drums. Of course it's a great riff. Of course you get credits for stuff like that if that's the deal. That was not the deal within the Rolling Stones. Many of the best riffs in rock are based on just a few notes.

Does anybody know if and when Stone Alone part two comes? His book.

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Redhotcarpet
Haha. My my. Well Mick and Keith absolutely loved what Bill was playing on keyboards. To them that was something really special. With Brian on guitar and Charlie on drums. Of course it's a great riff. Of course you get credits for stuff like that if that's the deal. That was not the deal within the Rolling Stones. Many of the best riffs in rock are based on just a few notes.

Just like that.

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Redhotcarpet
Does anybody know if and when Stone Alone part two comes? His book.

I think that ended up being Rolling With The Stones.

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Redhotcarpet
Haha. My my. Well Mick and Keith absolutely loved what Bill was playing on keyboards. To them that was something really special. With Brian on guitar and Charlie on drums. Of course it's a great riff. Of course you get credits for stuff like that if that's the deal. That was not the deal within the Rolling Stones. Many of the best riffs in rock are based on just a few notes.

I don't think you really understood what I meant, but that's alright. In the end, it's just music. Let's just say that I doubt very much that Bill, Brian and Charlie, even if they would have continued to jam for 300 months on that riff, they would ever come up with Jumping Jack Flash or anything even remotely close as good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-24 16:20 by matxil.

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kleermaker

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Redhotcarpet
Haha. My my. Well Mick and Keith absolutely loved what Bill was playing on keyboards. To them that was something really special. With Brian on guitar and Charlie on drums. Of course it's a great riff. Of course you get credits for stuff like that if that's the deal. That was not the deal within the Rolling Stones. Many of the best riffs in rock are based on just a few notes.

Just like that.

Led Zep used to give credits to all band members on certain songs.
Did they contribute like Bill, Charlie and Brian on JJF, or were they more involved in the song writing? By the way Pink Floyd as well.

can we all agree that **none** of us forgive bill for leaving the stones but we respect him for doing so?

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Turner68
can we all agree that **none** of us forgive bill for leaving the stones but we respect him for doing so?

Nothing to forgive.

It would have been to the detriment of everyone had he stayed.

It may be fortuitous, but for me his departure coincided with the beginning of the band's finest decade as a live act.

.....

Olly.

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Olly

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Turner68
can we all agree that **none** of us forgive bill for leaving the stones but we respect him for doing so?

Nothing to forgive.

It would have been to the detriment of everyone had he stayed.

It may be fortuitous, but for me his departure coincided with the beginning of the band's finest decade as a live act.

i haven't been around for a couple days- did i miss the announcement that today was opposite day?

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Turner68

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Olly

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Turner68
can we all agree that **none** of us forgive bill for leaving the stones but we respect him for doing so?

Nothing to forgive.

It would have been to the detriment of everyone had he stayed.

It may be fortuitous, but for me his departure coincided with the beginning of the band's finest decade as a live act.

i haven't been around for a couple days- did i miss the announcement that today was opposite day?

No, that occurred several weeks ago:

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Turner68
It was 37 years ago they recorded their last great tracks.

.....

Olly.

I wonder if they never forgave Bill for leaving, because he took his two amps back with him?

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HMS
Some people said the Stones were washed-up without Brian Jones, but they became more successful AFTER Brian Jones. AND the became even more successful AFTER Mick Taylor.

On the recent "Warhorses As of 2015" thread there seemed to be a relative consensus that the following could best be described as current "warhorses," i.e., the songs The Stones play at every gig, presumably to keep the arenas and stadia filled:

Satisfaction
Jumpin'Jack Flash
Sympathy For The Devil

Honky Tonk Women
Gimme Shelter
Midnight Rambler
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Brown Sugar
Tumbling Dice
Happy
It's Only Rock 'N Roll

Miss You
Start Me Up

8 of these 13 songs are Taylor-era, 3 are Brian-era, and 2 are Wood-era. By the measure of being able to produce songs they feel they need to play night in and night out, The Stones have become decidedly less successful since the Taylor era.

Admittedly, Taylor had very little to do with many of those "Taylor-era" warhorses. I am just posting this in reaction to your observation that the band "became even more successful AFTER Mick Taylor." That is decidedly NOT true when it comes to the production of music which will define their legacy; it is ONLY true when looked at in terms of $$$ and asses in seats.

The Stones are telling us this themselves, in the songs they choose to perform.

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LongBeachArena72

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HMS
Some people said the Stones were washed-up without Brian Jones, but they became more successful AFTER Brian Jones. AND the became even more successful AFTER Mick Taylor.

On the recent "Warhorses As of 2015" thread there seemed to be a relative consensus that the following could best be described as current "warhorses," i.e., the songs The Stones play at every gig, presumably to keep the arenas and stadia filled:

Satisfaction
Jumpin'Jack Flash
Sympathy For The Devil

Honky Tonk Women
Gimme Shelter
Midnight Rambler
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Brown Sugar
Tumbling Dice
Happy
It's Only Rock 'N Roll

Miss You
Start Me Up

8 of these 13 songs are Taylor-era, 3 are Brian-era, and 2 are Wood-era. By the measure of being able to produce songs they feel they need to play night in and night out, The Stones have become decidedly less successful since the Taylor era.

Admittedly, Taylor had very little to do with many of those "Taylor-era" warhorses.

It's really funny how people tend to include Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed in the Mick Taylor era. They should not, as you yourself admit as well. So:

Honky Tonk Women
Gimme Shelter
Midnight Rambler
You Can't Always Get What You Want

are actually from the only-Keith transition era. Also, I think the first version of IORR was actually with Ron Wood?

It would make more sense, dividing the songs in "Songs made when Mick and Keith still wrote together" and "The era when they came with their private songs to the studio". If you do that, indeed, you will see that their best work was done together.

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matxil

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LongBeachArena72

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HMS
Some people said the Stones were washed-up without Brian Jones, but they became more successful AFTER Brian Jones. AND the became even more successful AFTER Mick Taylor.

On the recent "Warhorses As of 2015" thread there seemed to be a relative consensus that the following could best be described as current "warhorses," i.e., the songs The Stones play at every gig, presumably to keep the arenas and stadia filled:

Satisfaction
Jumpin'Jack Flash
Sympathy For The Devil

Honky Tonk Women
Gimme Shelter
Midnight Rambler
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Brown Sugar
Tumbling Dice
Happy
It's Only Rock 'N Roll

Miss You
Start Me Up

8 of these 13 songs are Taylor-era, 3 are Brian-era, and 2 are Wood-era. By the measure of being able to produce songs they feel they need to play night in and night out, The Stones have become decidedly less successful since the Taylor era.

Admittedly, Taylor had very little to do with many of those "Taylor-era" warhorses.

It's really funny how people tend to include Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed in the Mick Taylor era. They should not, as you yourself admit as well. So:

Honky Tonk Women
Gimme Shelter
Midnight Rambler
You Can't Always Get What You Want

are actually from the only-Keith transition era. Also, I think the first version of IORR was actually with Ron Wood?

It would make more sense, dividing the songs in "Songs made when Mick and Keith still wrote together" and "The era when they came with their private songs to the studio". If you do that, indeed, you will see that their best work was done together.

The post is even worse than you suggest:

it's not that, as he says, "Admittedly, Taylor had very little to do with many of those "Taylor-era" warhorses"
it's that Taylor had nothing to do with writing or recording a number of the ones listed.

There are further problems with this post:

1) it's ridiculous to count IORR as a "Taylor" tune and not a "Wood" when the record is very clear that the song was written and initially recorded by Ronnie Wood and Mick Jagger. I believe even Keith was absent.

2) In addition to YCAGWYW not having Mick Taylor participate on it, Brian Jones plays on the track. To count is as a "Taylor" tune rather than a "Brian Jones" tune is... well, leaves me speechless.

A factually correct version of the breakdown, even giving HTW to Taylor, would be:

Brian Jones (4): Satisfaction, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Sympathy For The Devil, You Can't Always get What you want

Keith Transition Era (2): Gimme Shelter, Midnight Rambler

Mick Taylor (4): Honky Tonk Women (Taylor: "it was more or less complete by the time I arrived and did my overdubs"), Brown Sugar, Happy, Tumbling Dice

Ron Wood (3): IORR, Start Me Up, Miss You

Half the warhorses were written and recorded before either Taylor or Wood joined the band.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-25 12:24 by Turner68.