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Thanks for this, tom
you're breaking it down in a meaningful way. appreciated.
best summary ever.
Well said. I agree. It think it's simplistic to believe in "forces of evil" or "Satan's manipulation of humankind." There is a devil in all of us. Everyone is capable of doing evil. Hence the "sympathy" in the song.
Spot on!
Wait! Aren't you joking?
About Keith's solo?
No way DP...that guitar sounds like the trumpets around Jericho...I'm serious as a heart attack
You got my vote, Munich.
yeah, I don't buy that J Jr. made this special 'appeal'...wouldn't a bigger priority for him been to have get them to stop playing the Zapruder tape, if he was going to go down that road?
perhaps he left it out because so many more kennedys had died since the song was written - e.g. JFK jr. it would lead to confusion. to someone who knows the context of the song, written in the late 60s, it is clear that he means JFK and RFK. to someone listening to the song in the 2000s for the first time they might not understand, perhaps JFK jr. or Teddy Kennedy's death would be equally prominent in their minds.
The first time I heard Sympathy was in the 2000s, after Ted Kennedy had passed away actually, and I knew straight away what that verse referred too. Ted and JFK Jr. died; they weren't killed.
The Kennedy assassinations remain one of the most publicized events of the 20th century. I think that they are every bit as memorable as any of the other things mentioned in the song, with the exception of maybe the Biblical stuff. It doesn't really bother me that he doesn't sing that verse live any more, but it would be interesting to know what his reasoning was.
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Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: May 7, 2015 04:17
Quote
tomcasagranda
I agree with the idea of Satan manipulating humanity to destroy himself. The name Satan is Aramaic for "Deceiver". One of the causes for Christ's betrayal is that Satan entered into the heart of Judas Iscariot, thereby deceiving him into betraying a good man.
If you read the synoptic gospels you'll find that there are many references to different devils, i.e Beelzebub, Legion etc. Likewise, Hell is referred to as Sheol, and Gehenna, and Hades. So, anything to do with the synoptics is open to interpretation: a fact picked up, in general, by Robin Lane Fox in his Unauthorised Version, which is an academic critique of The Bible.
There's also the references to Bulgakov's Master & Margarita, written to the back-drop of Stalinist Russia, with "Permit me to introduce myself", which highlights the devil in one of the worst periods of human history. Stalin did proscribe Bulgakov's novel as a prohibited book.
However, there's always been figures that historiography paints as devils: this stems back to Herodotus writing about Xerxes in his history. Music also showcases apparent devils in the 1980s and 1990s; just check out the video of Johnny Cash's Goin' By The Book, an apocalyptic right wing, albeit over produced, tune.
Thanks for this, tom
you're breaking it down in a meaningful way. appreciated.
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
TeddyB1018
()
Date: May 7, 2015 05:29
It's probably not a metaphor. The main reason The Master and Margarita was banned is because, by allowing for the existence of Lucifer, it surreptitiously argued for the existence of God, which was not allowed under Stalin's regime.
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
Bsebastian
()
Date: May 7, 2015 07:55
Quote
Munichhilton
Satan's manipulation of humanity to destroy itself...rings true throughout the song...even Keith's solo says it
best summary ever.
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
Pietro
()
Date: May 7, 2015 21:59
Quote
DaveG
I think the "Lucifer" or the devil in this song is merely a metaphor. I think it addresses the potential for evil that exists in all humans, and that if we think we're above it, we're fooling ourselves. In other words, let's respect it, let's have a healthy fear of and recognition of the dark underbelly of human nature.
Well said. I agree. It think it's simplistic to believe in "forces of evil" or "Satan's manipulation of humankind." There is a devil in all of us. Everyone is capable of doing evil. Hence the "sympathy" in the song.
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: May 7, 2015 22:31
Quote
Munichhilton
Satan's manipulation of humanity to destroy itself...rings true throughout the song...even Keith's solo says it
Spot on!
Wait! Aren't you joking?
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: May 7, 2015 23:07
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Munichhilton
Satan's manipulation of humanity to destroy itself...rings true throughout the song...even Keith's solo says it
Spot on!
Wait! Aren't you joking?
About Keith's solo?
No way DP...that guitar sounds like the trumpets around Jericho...I'm serious as a heart attack
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: May 7, 2015 23:14
Quote
MunichhiltonQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Munichhilton
Satan's manipulation of humanity to destroy itself...rings true throughout the song...even Keith's solo says it
Spot on!
Wait! Aren't you joking?
About Keith's solo?
No way DP...that guitar sounds like the trumpets around Jericho...I'm serious as a heart attack
You got my vote, Munich.
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: May 7, 2015 23:22
Quote
Naturalust
Ok , if he sang the verse as late as 2002, it's pretty clear it's probably not at the request of John Kennedy Jr. that he decided to leave it out since John Jr.'s tragic plane crash was in 1999.
Still leaning towards fear as the reason Jagger leaves this line out. Skipping entire verses in classic and well written tunes seems a bit strange, plenty of aging Stones fans that still feel an emotional attachment to the loss of the Kennedy's, probably more than the WWII references, in any case.
Add this to the list of questions for a Jagger IORR interview...
peace
yeah, I don't buy that J Jr. made this special 'appeal'...wouldn't a bigger priority for him been to have get them to stop playing the Zapruder tape, if he was going to go down that road?
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
Bsebastian
()
Date: May 7, 2015 23:32
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
Naturalust
Ok , if he sang the verse as late as 2002, it's pretty clear it's probably not at the request of John Kennedy Jr. that he decided to leave it out since John Jr.'s tragic plane crash was in 1999.
Still leaning towards fear as the reason Jagger leaves this line out. Skipping entire verses in classic and well written tunes seems a bit strange, plenty of aging Stones fans that still feel an emotional attachment to the loss of the Kennedy's, probably more than the WWII references, in any case.
Add this to the list of questions for a Jagger IORR interview...
peace
yeah, I don't buy that J Jr. made this special 'appeal'...wouldn't a bigger priority for him been to have get them to stop playing the Zapruder tape, if he was going to go down that road?
perhaps he left it out because so many more kennedys had died since the song was written - e.g. JFK jr. it would lead to confusion. to someone who knows the context of the song, written in the late 60s, it is clear that he means JFK and RFK. to someone listening to the song in the 2000s for the first time they might not understand, perhaps JFK jr. or Teddy Kennedy's death would be equally prominent in their minds.
Re: "...when after all it was you and me"
Posted by:
alieb
()
Date: May 7, 2015 23:54
Quote
BsebastianQuote
treaclefingersQuote
Naturalust
Ok , if he sang the verse as late as 2002, it's pretty clear it's probably not at the request of John Kennedy Jr. that he decided to leave it out since John Jr.'s tragic plane crash was in 1999.
Still leaning towards fear as the reason Jagger leaves this line out. Skipping entire verses in classic and well written tunes seems a bit strange, plenty of aging Stones fans that still feel an emotional attachment to the loss of the Kennedy's, probably more than the WWII references, in any case.
Add this to the list of questions for a Jagger IORR interview...
peace
yeah, I don't buy that J Jr. made this special 'appeal'...wouldn't a bigger priority for him been to have get them to stop playing the Zapruder tape, if he was going to go down that road?
perhaps he left it out because so many more kennedys had died since the song was written - e.g. JFK jr. it would lead to confusion. to someone who knows the context of the song, written in the late 60s, it is clear that he means JFK and RFK. to someone listening to the song in the 2000s for the first time they might not understand, perhaps JFK jr. or Teddy Kennedy's death would be equally prominent in their minds.
The first time I heard Sympathy was in the 2000s, after Ted Kennedy had passed away actually, and I knew straight away what that verse referred too. Ted and JFK Jr. died; they weren't killed.
The Kennedy assassinations remain one of the most publicized events of the 20th century. I think that they are every bit as memorable as any of the other things mentioned in the song, with the exception of maybe the Biblical stuff. It doesn't really bother me that he doesn't sing that verse live any more, but it would be interesting to know what his reasoning was.
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