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gotdablouse
There is at least one remaining finished track from the Exile Deluxe sessions, Scarlett, a potential "hit" too according to those who heard it. Maybe not from the SF sessions per say but who would have known and where are they going to put it now?

Scarlett, Travellin' Man, Hillside Blues or Criss Cross Man...it was so difficult to publish these songs on SF reissue?!!

LPs were up to 44 minutes. I don't know where gets the 36 minute thing.

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71Tele
LPs were up to 44 minutes. I don't know where gets the 36 minute thing.

He never said they maxed out at 36 minutes. He suggested a general range of 36-40 minutes...

yeah,he probably just used 36 minutes as a guideline or he couldnt find more than 36 minutes of good material and didnt want to come right out and say it.

i'm pretty sure voodoo,bridges and bigger bang all would've been double albums in the vinyl age.

i dont see how they think they have that many good songs,its like a blindspot developed somewhere.there really was no one there who could say streets of love sucked or those keith ballads were sleep inducing?

i mean i know we have people who love anything they do but there is a standard there.i couldnt find more than 5 songs on any of those records since undercover that deserved to be on a rolling stones record.i half hope they make another one but really,its probably better to just end that part of the journey while the reputation is still intact.

i feel bad for don was,he couldnt tell them it sucked he just had to say "oh,i made you a 36 minute version if you want it"

However, the big question still remains as I hinted at in an earlier post: Will various Stones fans select the same five songs that you do from said later albums?

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Witness
However, the big question still remains as I hinted at in an earlier post: Will various Stones fans select the same five songs that you do from said later albums?

Well - this is exactly Jagger's and only Jagger's burden to carry. A few years Lem here inimitably noted how many a Stones fan wanted their "own little personal Mick Jagger" who responded to their individual whims and fantasies (to the extent that he is often even referred to as "lazy' by some heroes posting on message boards. I'm sure Richards wants his own personal Mick Jagger too.

The things is, I think he has carried this burden fairly well for 50 years and running. This is why we get a portfolio approach to albums. The whole doesn't please anybody but there is something in every Stones album that makes many happy.

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KRiffhard

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gotdablouse
There is at least one remaining finished track from the Exile Deluxe sessions, Scarlett, a potential "hit" too according to those who heard it. Maybe not from the SF sessions per say but who would have known and where are they going to put it now?

Scarlett, Travellin' Man, Hillside Blues or Criss Cross Man...it was so difficult to publish these songs on SF reissue?!!

One can only hope that the only reason Scarlett hasn't been published yet is that it will later - on a GHS-deluxe...

off the top of my head -

voodoo lounge-

1.wired all night
2.wicked as it seems
3.the storm
4.love is strong
5.brand new car
6.hate it when you leave-mick vocals/keith harmony
7.i'm gonna drive
8.999-mick vocals/keith harmony on chorus
9.mean disposition
10.thru and thru

you could move them around or take a couple out and add a couple in. the point is to not have a meandering overly long mess with a bunch of filler.

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gotdablouse
There is at least one remaining finished track from the Exile Deluxe sessions, Scarlett, a potential "hit" too according to those who heard it. Maybe not from the SF sessions per say but who would have known and where are they going to put it now?

Be careful about "what people say" - a friend who got his "Voodoo Brew" box a couple of days earlier than me enthusiastically described "Honest Man" as "in the same league as Midnight Rambler, if not better" and Keith's "You Got It Made" as "Gimme Shelter Part II"...

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

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lem motlow

i feel bad for don was,he couldn't tell them it sucked he just had to say "oh,i made you a 36 minute version if you want it"

Excellent point. And there lies a difference between a good producer and a bad one, it's his friggin' job to tell them what sucked. I'd have to hear the 36 minutes he came up with to see if he even has good judgement. We are assuming he picked the best tunes but who knows?...he probably did though.

Maybe being such a fan and thinking this was the last stuff the Stones would ever record got in the way of his job. But I don't feel too bad for him, what a dream gig. Just having unlimited access to the archives is enviable.

peace

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alimente

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

I do believe that.
The leaking of the Vigotone Brew/Stew/Residue back in 96 proevd one thing : the Stones have lost their mojo when it comes to picking the best song demos for the final album tracklisting.
And that's very sad...

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alimente

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

I do believe that.
The leaking of the Vigotone Brew/Stew/Residue back in 96 proevd one thing : the Stones have lost their mojo when it comes to picking the best song demos for the final album tracklisting.

And that's very sad... I mean the simple inclusion of a super-mediocre song like "Sparks Will Fly" in VL and the exclusion of "You Got It Made" is quite puzzling.
Yes they've lost their mojo and Don "yes boss" Was cannot help them.

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dcba

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alimente

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

I do believe that.
The leaking of the Vigotone Brew/Stew/Residue back in 96 proevd one thing : the Stones have lost their mojo when it comes to picking the best song demos for the final album tracklisting.

And that's very sad... I mean the simple inclusion of a super-mediocre song like "Sparks Will Fly" in VL and the exclusion of "You Got It Made" is quite puzzling.
Yes they've lost their mojo and Don "yes boss" Was cannot help them.

A good example, but that's not what I meant. I said "write, record, and finish", which means a finished, final production master, releasable without any further work. Of course they have demos and song sketches in their archives that had more potential than some stuff they actually released, but this is 2015, and what is really there that could be released without any further work given that they (=Mick) are obviously not too keen on going back to old tapes, recording overdubs, writing proper lyrics and recording final vocal tracks anymore? Apart from cover versions like Drift Away, Let's Go Steady and For Your Precious Love, maybe.

Criss Cross Mind seems to be a finished production. But what else is there? Not much, if anything, I guess. OK, they finished Fiji Jim (along with covers of Shame, Shame, Shame by Jimmy Reed and Let's Go Steady) in 1993/1994 for use as b-sides of Voodoo Lounge singles, just like they did with So Young.

I think it has to do with the very nature of their studio working method - work on a plethora of ideas, riffs, grooves, song sketches up to a certain point and then decide the ones that would make the album. The chosen ones were further worked on until they were finished, and the other stuff which had fallen by the wayside remained unfinished. "You Got It Made" is one of those things that were not developed any further. It's great, sure, it would have been great to have it on the album, sure, but it was their decision that two Keith lead vocal tracks were already enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-25 17:57 by alimente.

Living In The Heart Of Love sounds finished.

Some of the VB/VS/VR-tracks probably have finished vocals as well.

I bet it's the same with some of the great DW outtakes (You're Too Much, Strictly Memphis etc.).

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alimente

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gotdablouse
There is at least one remaining finished track from the Exile Deluxe sessions, Scarlett, a potential "hit" too according to those who heard it. Maybe not from the SF sessions per say but who would have known and where are they going to put it now?

Be careful about "what people say" - a friend who got his "Voodoo Brew" box a couple of days earlier than me enthusiastically described "Honest Man" as "in the same league as Midnight Rambler, if not better" and Keith's "You Got It Made" as "Gimme Shelter Part II"...

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

True (although that would have been Stew and not Brew ) Scarlett was specifically reworked during the Exile Deluxe sessions though and it was ready for inclusion. I guess it didn't really fit the timeframe for Exile (but what about Title Take 5!) but where will we see it now? On a TY "Deluxe" ?

Glad to see your comment above about "Fiji Jim" being reworked in 1993/94 but I think it was for the Virgin rereleases originally. They decided against extra tracks in the end. I suppose they used "So Young" so that these sessions (Mick at the Power Station in NYC according to French rock journo Manoeuvre) wouldn't be a total write-off...I wrote I was "glad" because I could swear I saw Mick mention FJ in an AOL "chat session" in the 90s but I've never found a transcript and no one else seemed to remember that. Is that where you saw FJ mentioned to?

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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alimente

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dcba

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alimente

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

I do believe that.
The leaking of the Vigotone Brew/Stew/Residue back in 96 proevd one thing : the Stones have lost their mojo when it comes to picking the best song demos for the final album tracklisting.

And that's very sad... I mean the simple inclusion of a super-mediocre song like "Sparks Will Fly" in VL and the exclusion of "You Got It Made" is quite puzzling.
Yes they've lost their mojo and Don "yes boss" Was cannot help them.

A good example, but that's not what I meant. I said "write, record, and finish", which means a finished, final production master, releasable without any further work. Of course they have demos and song sketches in their archives that had more potential than some stuff they actually released, but this is 2015, and what is really there that could be released without any further work given that they (=Mick) are obviously not too keen on going back to old tapes, recording overdubs, writing proper lyrics and recording final vocal tracks anymore? Apart from cover versions like Drift Away, Let's Go Steady and For Your Precious Love, maybe.

Criss Cross Mind seems to be a finished production. But what else is there? Not much, if anything, I guess. OK, they finished Fiji Jim (along with covers of Shame, Shame, Shame by Jimmy Reed and Let's Go Steady) in 1993/1994 for use as b-sides of Voodoo Lounge singles, just like they did with So Young.

I think it has to do with the very nature of their studio working method - work on a plethora of ideas, riffs, grooves, song sketches up to a certain point and then decide the ones that would make the album. The chosen ones were further worked on until they were finished, and the other stuff which had fallen by the wayside remained unfinished. "You Got It Made" is one of those things that were not developed any further. It's great, sure, it would have been great to have it on the album, sure, but it was their decision that two Keith lead vocal tracks were already enough.

There is nothing that supports those songs that were tracked in the studio (You Got It Made, etc) are not finished. Those and the songs that made VL are in various states on the boots.

Don Was clearly didn't pay attention when working on the SG extra tracks since they ignored all the rest of the good tunes. Only No Spare Parts and Do You Think I Really Care are worthy of that release in the strict sense of the SG sessions.

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gotdablouse

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alimente

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gotdablouse
There is at least one remaining finished track from the Exile Deluxe sessions, Scarlett, a potential "hit" too according to those who heard it. Maybe not from the SF sessions per say but who would have known and where are they going to put it now?

Be careful about "what people say" - a friend who got his "Voodoo Brew" box a couple of days earlier than me enthusiastically described "Honest Man" as "in the same league as Midnight Rambler, if not better" and Keith's "You Got It Made" as "Gimme Shelter Part II"...

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

True (although that would have been Stew and not Brew ) Scarlett was specifically reworked during the Exile Deluxe sessions though and it was ready for inclusion. I guess it didn't really fit the timeframe for Exile (but what about Title Take 5!) but where will we see it now? On a TY "Deluxe" ?

Glad to see your comment above about "Fiji Jim" being reworked in 1993/94 but I think it was for the Virgin rereleases originally. They decided against extra tracks in the end. I suppose they used "So Young" so that these sessions (Mick at the Power Station in NYC according to French rock journo Manoeuvre) wouldn't be a total write-off...I wrote I was "glad" because I could swear I saw Mick mention FJ in an AOL "chat session" in the 90s but I've never found a transcript and no one else seemed to remember that. Is that where you saw FJ mentioned to?

No, it was an interview with Chris Kimsey back then in Guitar Player or some other music mag, stating that he was instructed by Mick to comb the vaults for unreleased tracks that were finished or required only little work to finish them. According to Kimsey, Mick wanted them as filler material for CD single releases from Voodoo Lounge. Kimsey stated that he did not find much that was "suitable" to these requirements and specifically mentioned Drift Away, So Young, Fiji Jim, Shame Shame Shame and Let's Go Steady. He also mentioned that Mick had to record new lead vocals for some as the guide vocals on the rough recordings were "unusable", my guess is that those were the three tracks from the SG sessions. Only So Young was used back then - to my big disappointment, as I was hoping for a pristine sounding version of Fiji Jim, one of my favourite Stones outtakes...

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GasLightStreet
There is nothing that supports those songs that were tracked in the studio (You Got It Made, etc) are not finished. Those and the songs that made VL are in various states on the boots.

Don Was clearly didn't pay attention when working on the SG extra tracks since they ignored all the rest of the good tunes. Only No Spare Parts and Do You Think I Really Care are worthy of that release in the strict sense of the SG sessions.

Well, dream on ... as there is also nothing that supports those songs were actually finished.

Concerning Don Was not paying attention to or ignoring "all the rest of the good tunes" from the SG sessions - what if Mick had a different opinion and thought they were shit?

It's easy to blame people like Don Was when in fact we don't have exact info about what went on behind the scenes - who decided what and so on.

Of course, it's also possible that they intentionally save some material for future re-releases and anniversary editions. The Stones have finally opened the vaults, yes, but that does not mean that they want to give us everything that's possible right now.

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alimente

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gotdablouse

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alimente

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gotdablouse
There is at least one remaining finished track from the Exile Deluxe sessions, Scarlett, a potential "hit" too according to those who heard it. Maybe not from the SF sessions per say but who would have known and where are they going to put it now?

Be careful about "what people say" - a friend who got his "Voodoo Brew" box a couple of days earlier than me enthusiastically described "Honest Man" as "in the same league as Midnight Rambler, if not better" and Keith's "You Got It Made" as "Gimme Shelter Part II"...

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

True (although that would have been Stew and not Brew ) Scarlett was specifically reworked during the Exile Deluxe sessions though and it was ready for inclusion. I guess it didn't really fit the timeframe for Exile (but what about Title Take 5!) but where will we see it now? On a TY "Deluxe" ?

Glad to see your comment above about "Fiji Jim" being reworked in 1993/94 but I think it was for the Virgin rereleases originally. They decided against extra tracks in the end. I suppose they used "So Young" so that these sessions (Mick at the Power Station in NYC according to French rock journo Manoeuvre) wouldn't be a total write-off...I wrote I was "glad" because I could swear I saw Mick mention FJ in an AOL "chat session" in the 90s but I've never found a transcript and no one else seemed to remember that. Is that where you saw FJ mentioned to?

No, it was an interview with Chris Kimsey back then in Guitar Player or some other music mag, stating that he was instructed by Mick to comb the vaults for unreleased tracks that were finished or required only little work to finish them. According to Kimsey, Mick wanted them as filler material for CD single releases from Voodoo Lounge. Kimsey stated that he did not find much that was "suitable" to these requirements and specifically mentioned Drift Away, So Young, Fiji Jim, Shame Shame Shame and Let's Go Steady. He also mentioned that Mick had to record new lead vocals for some as the guide vocals on the rough recordings were "unusable", my guess is that those were the three tracks from the SG sessions. Only So Young was used back then - to my big disappointment, as I was hoping for a pristine sounding version of Fiji Jim, one of my favourite Stones outtakes...

Thanks, very interesting, I'm a bit surprised that was for VL B-Sides though as Don Was had already gotten Mick to commit to writing lyrics for the instrumentals they had (I remember Mick complaining in an interview that DW was bugging him to finish them). For some reason they seemed pretty big on "B-Sides" for VL, they had never really paid attention to them before. I'll see if I can find that Chris Kimsey interview somewhere...

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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alimente

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GasLightStreet
There is nothing that supports those songs that were tracked in the studio (You Got It Made, etc) are not finished. Those and the songs that made VL are in various states on the boots.

Don Was clearly didn't pay attention when working on the SG extra tracks since they ignored all the rest of the good tunes. Only No Spare Parts and Do You Think I Really Care are worthy of that release in the strict sense of the SG sessions.

Well, dream on ... as there is also nothing that supports those songs were actually finished.

Concerning Don Was not paying attention to or ignoring "all the rest of the good tunes" from the SG sessions - what if Mick had a different opinion and thought they were shit?

It's easy to blame people like Don Was when in fact we don't have exact info about what went on behind the scenes - who decided what and so on.

Of course, it's also possible that they intentionally save some material for future re-releases and anniversary editions. The Stones have finally opened the vaults, yes, but that does not mean that they want to give us everything that's possible right now.

I trust Don Was' opinion more than Mick's, who's made some awful choices over the years as to what is good. Then again, Was has produced some of those awful tracks too.

My point about the SG tracks specifically was the omission of When She Held Me Tight, Fiji Jim etc!!!!! Of course, the songs a lot of people would prefer had made it on the release instead of a lot of that boring stuff.

Yes, the SG bonus disc is a strange beast - while it's not bad at all, it leaves out a lot of material from the actual SG sessions that I, for one, would have preferred for such a release. It's a bit country-heavy for my taste, too.

<<The Stones have finally opened the vaults, yes, but that does not mean that they want to give us everything that's possible right now.>>

A sensible move, since they neither have plans for retiring or for creating new original full-length albums.

This is the new and latter-day era of the "Archive Tours".

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gotdablouse

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alimente

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gotdablouse

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alimente

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gotdablouse
There is at least one remaining finished track from the Exile Deluxe sessions, Scarlett, a potential "hit" too according to those who heard it. Maybe not from the SF sessions per say but who would have known and where are they going to put it now?

Be careful about "what people say" - a friend who got his "Voodoo Brew" box a couple of days earlier than me enthusiastically described "Honest Man" as "in the same league as Midnight Rambler, if not better" and Keith's "You Got It Made" as "Gimme Shelter Part II"...

...I simply don't believe that they write, record and finish a "potential hit" and don't release it, not even as a b-side...

True (although that would have been Stew and not Brew ) Scarlett was specifically reworked during the Exile Deluxe sessions though and it was ready for inclusion. I guess it didn't really fit the timeframe for Exile (but what about Title Take 5!) but where will we see it now? On a TY "Deluxe" ?

Glad to see your comment above about "Fiji Jim" being reworked in 1993/94 but I think it was for the Virgin rereleases originally. They decided against extra tracks in the end. I suppose they used "So Young" so that these sessions (Mick at the Power Station in NYC according to French rock journo Manoeuvre) wouldn't be a total write-off...I wrote I was "glad" because I could swear I saw Mick mention FJ in an AOL "chat session" in the 90s but I've never found a transcript and no one else seemed to remember that. Is that where you saw FJ mentioned to?

No, it was an interview with Chris Kimsey back then in Guitar Player or some other music mag, stating that he was instructed by Mick to comb the vaults for unreleased tracks that were finished or required only little work to finish them. According to Kimsey, Mick wanted them as filler material for CD single releases from Voodoo Lounge. Kimsey stated that he did not find much that was "suitable" to these requirements and specifically mentioned Drift Away, So Young, Fiji Jim, Shame Shame Shame and Let's Go Steady. He also mentioned that Mick had to record new lead vocals for some as the guide vocals on the rough recordings were "unusable", my guess is that those were the three tracks from the SG sessions. Only So Young was used back then - to my big disappointment, as I was hoping for a pristine sounding version of Fiji Jim, one of my favourite Stones outtakes...

Thanks, very interesting, I'm a bit surprised that was for VL B-Sides though as Don Was had already gotten Mick to commit to writing lyrics for the instrumentals they had (I remember Mick complaining in an interview that DW was bugging him to finish them). For some reason they seemed pretty big on "B-Sides" for VL, they had never really paid attention to them before. I'll see if I can find that Chris Kimsey interview somewhere...

I guess or even seem to recall that they (or Mick, that is) instructed Kimsey because he already went through the vaults for Tattoo You; with the thought that it might be easier for him because he'd already went through this procedure or even had notes concerning tracks that although did not make the cut for Tattoo You, were still suitable for b-sides. However, it's interesting to note that obviously no 80's outtakes (from Undercover, Dirty Work and Steel Wheels) were considered.

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alimente
I guess or even seem to recall that they (or Mick, that is) instructed Kimsey because he already went through the vaults for Tattoo You; with the thought that it might be easier for him because he'd already went through this procedure or even had notes concerning tracks that although did not make the cut for Tattoo You, were still suitable for b-sides. However, it's interesting to note that obviously no 80's outtakes (from Undercover, Dirty Work and Steel Wheels) were considered.

That is interesting. Especially considering how many reels of tape were used for DW and how many songs they did.

Don Was, like Chuck, is another employee, whatever his individual abilities and accomplishments. The Stones haven't used a real "producer" in decades, as that would entail accepting critical views. They get a guy like Was or Chuck to do a job, and they do it competently. Was (again, Like Chuck) is likely a good diplomat who knows where his bread is buttered and can get along with the Mick and Keith camps (especially the Mick camp). If the Stones wanted to put themselves in the hands of a producer they would get Jack White or Rick Rubin, or Daniel Lanois, or someone else who would challenge them. I am nit recommending any of those people, particularly, but they would make honest producers, and the results might actually be interesting.

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71Tele
Don Was, like Chuck, is another employee, whatever his individual abilities and accomplishments. The Stones haven't used a real "producer" in decades, as that would entail accepting critical views. They get a guy like Was or Chuck to do a job, and they do it competently. Was (again, Like Chuck) is likely a good diplomat who knows where his bread is buttered and can get along with the Mick and Keith camps (especially the Mick camp). If the Stones wanted to put themselves in the hands of a producer they would get Jack White or Rick Rubin, or Daniel Lanois, or someone else who would challenge them. I am nit recommending any of those people, particularly, but they would make honest producers, and the results might actually be interesting.

Yep, that sums it up perfectly. Plus, employees like Don Was and Chuck are prepared to take the fire for decisions which are in truth band, or Mick's decisions. However, leaving the task of combing the vaults for unreleased material to outside people like Don Was is potentially problematic because the band then has to rely on their judgement concerning the material they select or at least pre-select. It is well possible that for Don Was stuff like Travellin' Man and Hillside Blues were "just endless boring jams" whereas in the view of band members, it could have been great material for Sticky Deluxe. I doubt that from their own memory, they still remember some stuff which fans are indeed aware of because of circulating tapes and bootlegs. That might explain why Mick stated that there were no unreleased songs available for Sticky Deluxe while at the same time we know that this is not entirely true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-26 05:12 by alimente.

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71Tele
If the Stones wanted to put themselves in the hands of a producer they would get Jack White or Rick Rubin, or Daniel Lanois, or someone else who would challenge them. I am nit recommending any of those people, particularly, but they would make honest producers, and the results might actually be interesting.

Yes indeed. Just saw Jack White on Austin City Limits. Awesome. Simple stuff played with style and energy and improvisation. Even the less strong tunes were totally entertaining and a blast to watch and hear. After the show he talked about never wanting to play the songs just like the record or be stuck in the nostalgia of having to play 10 year old songs. Couldn't help but smile thinking about similar statements Mick made years ago.

A producer with artistic vision for the Stones would be great but in the end they really need to have some vision of their own or at least be open to powerful suggestion. Not just the records but specifically relating to the live shows. Don Was has shown he isn't that guy.

peace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-26 18:02 by Naturalust.

wanderingspirit66 wrote on April 25, 2015 12:27am:
Well - this is exactly Jagger's and only Jagger's burden to carry. A few years Lem here inimitably noted how many a Stones fan wanted their "own little personal Mick Jagger" who responded to their individual whims and fantasies (to the extent that he is often even referred to as "lazy' by some heroes posting on message boards. I'm sure Richards wants his own personal Mick Jagger too.

Perhaps I can be of some assistance in helping those who want "their own little personal Mick Jagger" see pic below:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/27/0b/92/270b92205cc2bcb73bee6fd8aa91d8a4.jpg][/url]


Carolyn G



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-28 11:02 by tauk.

Here's another Mick Doll for those wishing for "their own personal, little Mick Jagger". This one looks to be almost life-like in size.




Lastly, a modest version of a Mick doll- a Raggedy-Andy type doll--it might not resemble Mick as well
but could be useful for the SERIOUSLY INTENSE fan seeking to fulfill their "individual whims & fantasies" VooDoo-Like-
looks like pins could be stuck into this one.
Wait...who would even THINK such a thing??? ....ummm, maybe a fan or two who seeks lower ticket prices?// just sayin... LUV YA MICK!!



Carolyn G



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-28 11:01 by tauk.

There are plenty of unreleased tracks out there. A one hour sweep of Youtube gets you enough material to fill at least two CDs.