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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be true even if additional drum or other instrument sounds were digitally triggered and "digital" samples were started. Those sounds once they are digitally triggered go through a digital to analog converter so we hear them musically and this analog sound signal is what the FOH mixing engineer would be mixing in with the rest of the analog signals from the microphones on stage.

Not that I suspect the Stones are using this kind of technology in their shows, I can't imagine Charlie needing any kind of supplemental drum sound to sound good. Microphone placement, EQ and gain adjustment from the FOH engineer can make drums sound fine.

Dave Natale is the name of the Stones sound guy. What is amazing is that he hardly uses any effects like reverb and delay and apparently uses NO compression or noise gates for the whole show. When you hear a live Stones show, you really are getting what the band is playing....those guys have got it down after 50+ years.

peace




peace

Well the samples are indeed analog, they would be recorded samples of a clean bass drum hit and snare drum hit not digital facsimiles. Usually the musician's exact drum, but at Live Aide for example Bob Clearmountain was the FOH and he used 1 set of samples for the entire program. They are very famous samples, from Tears for Fears. Everyone uses this trick in the big leagues. I did notice that Natale rides the guitars quite allot and very obviously. That's what gives the impression there is little compression used. There's little need for obvious reverbs in large settings but Mick's voice is certainly doubled with a digital delay. The guitars have old style tape slaps on stage so effecting them from the board would be counterproductive. Dave Natale keeps his head up for sure, he always makes the move correct when the back-up singer sings verse 2 of TD. He makes subjective judgments as well if Keith is on a role in a solo he'll boost him, if he's stumbling through a solo he'll bury it. The notion that he mixes a show without noise gates and compression is incorrect. Background vocal mics like Chuck's, Hammmond B-3 mics for example all require light gating or there'd be much unwanted noise and unnecessary bleeding. Bass is always compressed at the board as well as vocals, horns, guitars may be the exception because The Stones are eccentric about guitars. Still there has to be a giant compressor across the entire output of the system to tighten the mix and keep the system from being damaged in case a mic is dropped or a drum stick strikes a mic. Mixing a show in a big arena is scientific mathematical work. The "tricks" employed by The Stones are very minimal and old school, no band of their caliber is presented as raw, you are really hearing what the band is playing. The engineer uses these well established methods to keep the sound consistent through-out the audience no matter where you may be sitting. They won't readily admit it because fans may think they're being fooled by technology while it is quite the opposite, The Stones' sound people do a great job and work attentively till the very last note heard. Rightfully so there'd be hell to pay if they didn't.

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flacnvinyl

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be true even if additional drum or other instrument sounds were digitally triggered and "digital" samples were started. Those sounds once they are digitally triggered go through a digital to analog converter so we hear them musically and this analog sound signal is what the FOH mixing engineer would be mixing in with the rest of the analog signals from the microphones on stage.

Not that I suspect the Stones are using this kind of technology in their shows, I can't imagine Charlie needing any kind of supplemental drum sound to sound good. Microphone placement, EQ and gain adjustment from the FOH engineer can make drums sound fine.

Dave Natale is the name of the Stones sound guy. What is amazing is that he hardly uses any effects like reverb and delay and apparently uses NO compression or noise gates for the whole show. When you hear a live Stones show, you really are getting what the band is playing....those guys have got it down after 50+ years.

peace




peace

Well the samples are indeed analog, they would be recorded samples of a clean bass drum hit and snare drum hit not digital facsimiles. Usually the musician's exact drum, but at Live Aide for example Bob Clearmountain was the FOH and he used 1 set of samples for the entire program. They are very famous samples, from Tears for Fears. Everyone uses this trick in the big leagues. I did notice that Natale rides the guitars quite allot and very obviously. That's what gives the impression there is little compression used. There's little need for obvious reverbs in large settings but Mick's voice is certainly doubled with a digital delay. The guitars have old style tape slaps on stage so effecting them from the board would be counterproductive. Dave Natale keeps his head up for sure, he always makes the move correct when the back-up singer sings verse 2 of TD. He makes subjective judgments as well if Keith is on a role in a solo he'll boost him, if he's stumbling through a solo he'll bury it. The notion that he mixes a show without noise gates and compression is incorrect. Background vocal mics like Chuck's, Hammmond B-3 mics for example all require light gating or there'd be much unwanted noise and unnecessary bleeding. Bass is always compressed at the board as well as vocals, horns, guitars may be the exception because The Stones are eccentric about guitars. Still there has to be a giant compressor across the entire output of the system to tighten the mix and keep the system from being damaged in case a mic is dropped or a drum stick strikes a mic. Mixing a show in a big arena is scientific mathematical work. The "tricks" employed by The Stones are very minimal and old school, no band of their caliber is presented as raw, you are really hearing what the band is playing. The engineer uses these well established methods to keep the sound consistent through-out the audience no matter where you may be sitting. They won't readily admit it because fans may think they're being fooled by technology while it is quite the opposite, The Stones' sound people do a great job and work attentively till the very last note heard. Rightfully so there'd be hell to pay if they didn't.

Great post and I heartily agree.. Although Columbus in 99 was probably the worst sound I have ever experienced at any concert. Johnny Lang was the opener and his sound was flawless and blazingly loud. The Stones came out at half the volume and a muddy mix.

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treaclefingers

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Natlanta
i like Backfire 15 as a tour name, maybe next year it's Sweet Little '16, and then She's Too Cute To Be A Minute Over '17?

good thread D/G, keep 'em coming.

I prefer the "I Can See That Your Just '15, But I Don't Want Your ID Tour".

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Conley
I don't care where they are playing. I just want to see them live!

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Naturalust

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flacnvinyl

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be true even if additional drum or other instrument sounds were digitally triggered and "digital" samples were started. Those sounds once they are digitally triggered go through a digital to analog converter so we hear them musically and this analog sound signal is what the FOH mixing engineer would be mixing in with the rest of the analog signals from the microphones on stage.

Not that I suspect the Stones are using this kind of technology in their shows, I can't imagine Charlie needing any kind of supplemental drum sound to sound good. Microphone placement, EQ and gain adjustment from the FOH engineer can make drums sound fine.

Dave Natale is the name of the Stones sound guy. What is amazing is that he hardly uses any effects like reverb and delay and apparently uses NO compression or noise gates for the whole show. When you hear a live Stones show, you really are getting what the band is playing....those guys have got it down after 50+ years.

peace




peace

Well the samples are indeed analog, they would be recorded samples of a clean bass drum hit and snare drum hit not digital facsimiles. Usually the musician's exact drum, but at Live Aide for example Bob Clearmountain was the FOH and he used 1 set of samples for the entire program. They are very famous samples, from Tears for Fears. Everyone uses this trick in the big leagues. I did notice that Natale rides the guitars quite allot and very obviously. That's what gives the impression there is little compression used. There's little need for obvious reverbs in large settings but Mick's voice is certainly doubled with a digital delay. The guitars have old style tape slaps on stage so effecting them from the board would be counterproductive. Dave Natale keeps his head up for sure, he always makes the move correct when the back-up singer sings verse 2 of TD. He makes subjective judgments as well if Keith is on a role in a solo he'll boost him, if he's stumbling through a solo he'll bury it. The notion that he mixes a show without noise gates and compression is incorrect. Background vocal mics like Chuck's, Hammmond B-3 mics for example all require light gating or there'd be much unwanted noise and unnecessary bleeding. Bass is always compressed at the board as well as vocals, horns, guitars may be the exception because The Stones are eccentric about guitars. Still there has to be a giant compressor across the entire output of the system to tighten the mix and keep the system from being damaged in case a mic is dropped or a drum stick strikes a mic. Mixing a show in a big arena is scientific mathematical work. The "tricks" employed by The Stones are very minimal and old school, no band of their caliber is presented as raw, you are really hearing what the band is playing. The engineer uses these well established methods to keep the sound consistent through-out the audience no matter where you may be sitting. They won't readily admit it because fans may think they're being fooled by technology while it is quite the opposite, The Stones' sound people do a great job and work attentively till the very last note heard. Rightfully so there'd be hell to pay if they didn't.

Great post and I heartily agree.. Although Columbus in 99 was probably the worst sound I have ever experienced at any concert. Johnny Lang was the opener and his sound was flawless and blazingly loud. The Stones came out at half the volume and a muddy mix.

If Dave Natale says he uses no compression or noise gates on the Stones I believe him. He isn't trying to impress the fans that he's not using technology, obviously he has his tricks but his treatment of the Stones seems pretty straightforward old school, like the band.

peace

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DandelionPowderman
Real old school is using the room, right?

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bv

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Conley
I don't care where they are playing. I just want to see them live!

Right!

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bv

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Conley
I don't care where they are playing. I just want to see them live!

Right!

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust

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flacnvinyl

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust

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stonehearted
<<The only additions to the drums is the engineer adds triggered samples to at least the Kick and Snare.>>

But that would mean a digital effect is in play.

I forget the guy's name, but the Stones have a special sound guy who works the mixing board even in rehearsals, and according to him what goes through his board in concert is 100% analog sound.

That would be true even if additional drum or other instrument sounds were digitally triggered and "digital" samples were started. Those sounds once they are digitally triggered go through a digital to analog converter so we hear them musically and this analog sound signal is what the FOH mixing engineer would be mixing in with the rest of the analog signals from the microphones on stage.

Not that I suspect the Stones are using this kind of technology in their shows, I can't imagine Charlie needing any kind of supplemental drum sound to sound good. Microphone placement, EQ and gain adjustment from the FOH engineer can make drums sound fine.

Dave Natale is the name of the Stones sound guy. What is amazing is that he hardly uses any effects like reverb and delay and apparently uses NO compression or noise gates for the whole show. When you hear a live Stones show, you really are getting what the band is playing....those guys have got it down after 50+ years.

peace




peace

Well the samples are indeed analog, they would be recorded samples of a clean bass drum hit and snare drum hit not digital facsimiles. Usually the musician's exact drum, but at Live Aide for example Bob Clearmountain was the FOH and he used 1 set of samples for the entire program. They are very famous samples, from Tears for Fears. Everyone uses this trick in the big leagues. I did notice that Natale rides the guitars quite allot and very obviously. That's what gives the impression there is little compression used. There's little need for obvious reverbs in large settings but Mick's voice is certainly doubled with a digital delay. The guitars have old style tape slaps on stage so effecting them from the board would be counterproductive. Dave Natale keeps his head up for sure, he always makes the move correct when the back-up singer sings verse 2 of TD. He makes subjective judgments as well if Keith is on a role in a solo he'll boost him, if he's stumbling through a solo he'll bury it. The notion that he mixes a show without noise gates and compression is incorrect. Background vocal mics like Chuck's, Hammmond B-3 mics for example all require light gating or there'd be much unwanted noise and unnecessary bleeding. Bass is always compressed at the board as well as vocals, horns, guitars may be the exception because The Stones are eccentric about guitars. Still there has to be a giant compressor across the entire output of the system to tighten the mix and keep the system from being damaged in case a mic is dropped or a drum stick strikes a mic. Mixing a show in a big arena is scientific mathematical work. The "tricks" employed by The Stones are very minimal and old school, no band of their caliber is presented as raw, you are really hearing what the band is playing. The engineer uses these well established methods to keep the sound consistent through-out the audience no matter where you may be sitting. They won't readily admit it because fans may think they're being fooled by technology while it is quite the opposite, The Stones' sound people do a great job and work attentively till the very last note heard. Rightfully so there'd be hell to pay if they didn't.

Great post and I heartily agree.. Although Columbus in 99 was probably the worst sound I have ever experienced at any concert. Johnny Lang was the opener and his sound was flawless and blazingly loud. The Stones came out at half the volume and a muddy mix.

If Dave Natale says he uses no compression or noise gates on the Stones I believe him. He isn't trying to impress the fans that he's not using technology, obviously he has his tricks but his treatment of the Stones seems pretty straightforward old school, like the band.

peace

Well I hope to see for myself this tour... I find this hardly believable from what I heard from the stage in the last 2 years but I'll remain open minded. This could explain the lack of definition in the bass that many here complain about.. I will say if he is mixing this barren this is not "old school," "Old School" is using compressors on everything... In this case he'd be relying on the output compression of the entire mix to keep things in line as well as subgroups. I already assume he has automated settings for each song and engages the automation to mute the instruments not played on that particular number and open the correct mic for the correct guitar/amp pairings. I heard few if any mistakes regarding missed cues from the soundboard and he'd have a big job keeping up with mutes if he didn't use any gates or automation. His biggest job is balancing the guitars and making the best impression for them he can. He is absolutely adding samples to the bass drum and snare drum, which is not covered in this tidbit of his interview. I heard them flam more than once in Brooklyn. While I don't believe he's purposely fibbing he has bosses playing on stage that have a deep knowledge of audio engineering and he may be hesitant to offer much tech talk for them to critique. I bet his would be a fun job, basically you are mixing the greatest band to your own taste although I'm certain each member has someone lobbying and reporting back to them a view of how they're presented in the mix.

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lem motlow
[www.prosoundweb.com]



this is dave natale destroying everything doom and gloom said-


when you see the worlds greatest rock and roll band play live [no matter what the venue] you hear the actual rolling stones.
someone running down a laundry list of crap lesser bands use [in place of being really good at what they do] then applying it to the stones isnt really a good idea.

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lem motlow
so if you just keep saying more and more words what you say will be true?

the problem is the rest of us can read,the article states the entire case in black and white.

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lem motlow
yeah,the part about putting them in a church basement and it would be the same sound was really over our heads too.

i've leaned against the stage where i could hear the sound coming off the amps-its the stones.

you really need to go back and start complaining about the venue locations,this baffle em with bullshit tech thing isnt really working.maybe they'll announce the ticket prices soon-i'm sure they're gonna be way too expensive for you.

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DoomandGloom
I don't have any inside scoop but they'd have to return to London as long as they can continue. It's unrealistic to think they're last gig will be somewhere like Pennsyltucky. Personally it's much easier from New York City to get to London than Buffalo or Pittsburgh.

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Chacal

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DoomandGloom
I don't have any inside scoop but they'd have to return to London as long as they can continue. It's unrealistic to think they're last gig will be somewhere like Pennsyltucky. Personally it's much easier from New York City to get to London than Buffalo or Pittsburgh.

I have no trouble believing that is true for you personally, but I assume you're just bringing a suitcase - not 52 shipping containers.

The thread is a good initiative.

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spiderlegs
Petco Park San Diego ( new Padres Baseball field ) was a great outdoor venue . Good sound , Magical night You should consider go too this concert. May 24th. On Fire can not wait !!!

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Naturalust
Don't want to add too much to this pissing match but yes it is possible some limiters are used on the group busses but likely only for emergency situations. I think the whole point is that he is not engaging the compressors or noise gates on ANY of the channel inputs or the group busses. Compressing a group bus would obviously take away the natural dynamics of the Stones performance even more so than compressing individual inputs. He probably has them patched in and set so they only limit in an extreme gain event. That is likely what he means by no compression is engaged during the show, it doesn't mean there isn't a limiter patched in for when Mick drops a mic.

Basically Dave Natale trusts good musicians like the Stones to control their own dynamics. Of course compression has played a role in the way we hear music but I'd argue that it isn't always a good thing. Dynamics are probably less important in rock music but if the musicians are able to control it to great effect, no need for an engineer to screw with it. I think Dave Natale is saying that the Stones are in control of the dynamics from the stage and he is just tweaking the relative volumes to get a good mix.

And my use of the term old school is pretty subjective, guess it depend on how old you are talking about. I seriously doubt compressors were part of the Stones early live shows.

peace

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust
Don't want to add too much to this pissing match but yes it is possible some limiters are used on the group busses but likely only for emergency situations. I think the whole point is that he is not engaging the compressors or noise gates on ANY of the channel inputs or the group busses. Compressing a group bus would obviously take away the natural dynamics of the Stones performance even more so than compressing individual inputs. He probably has them patched in and set so they only limit in an extreme gain event. That is likely what he means by no compression is engaged during the show, it doesn't mean there isn't a limiter patched in for when Mick drops a mic.

Basically Dave Natale trusts good musicians like the Stones to control their own dynamics. Of course compression has played a role in the way we hear music but I'd argue that it isn't always a good thing. Dynamics are probably less important in rock music but if the musicians are able to control it to great effect, no need for an engineer to screw with it. I think Dave Natale is saying that the Stones are in control of the dynamics from the stage and he is just tweaking the relative volumes to get a good mix.

And my use of the term old school is pretty subjective, guess it depend on how old you are talking about. I seriously doubt compressors were part of the Stones early live shows.

peace

Well I've never seen Keith on stage with the Stones turn a knob on his guitar to boost his gain or dynamics. Clearly it's done at the board or by his road crew enabling gain stages or boxes on cue from behind the amps. It would fair to say The Stones dynamics, aside from CW are fully controlled by people other than the band. When you watch The Allman Brothers or Pink Floyd you can see them fiddling with their guitar controls getting set for a solo, not so with The Stones. Like Springsteen they are running full power on "10" at all times.

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Naturalust

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DoomandGloom

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Naturalust
Don't want to add too much to this pissing match but yes it is possible some limiters are used on the group busses but likely only for emergency situations. I think the whole point is that he is not engaging the compressors or noise gates on ANY of the channel inputs or the group busses. Compressing a group bus would obviously take away the natural dynamics of the Stones performance even more so than compressing individual inputs. He probably has them patched in and set so they only limit in an extreme gain event. That is likely what he means by no compression is engaged during the show, it doesn't mean there isn't a limiter patched in for when Mick drops a mic.

Basically Dave Natale trusts good musicians like the Stones to control their own dynamics. Of course compression has played a role in the way we hear music but I'd argue that it isn't always a good thing. Dynamics are probably less important in rock music but if the musicians are able to control it to great effect, no need for an engineer to screw with it. I think Dave Natale is saying that the Stones are in control of the dynamics from the stage and he is just tweaking the relative volumes to get a good mix.

And my use of the term old school is pretty subjective, guess it depend on how old you are talking about. I seriously doubt compressors were part of the Stones early live shows.

peace

Well I've never seen Keith on stage with the Stones turn a knob on his guitar to boost his gain or dynamics. Clearly it's done at the board or by his road crew enabling gain stages or boxes on cue from behind the amps. It would fair to say The Stones dynamics, aside from CW are fully controlled by people other than the band. When you watch The Allman Brothers or Pink Floyd you can see them fiddling with their guitar controls getting set for a solo, not so with The Stones. Like Springsteen they are running full power on "10" at all times.

Like Charlie Watts, I sure Keith has some dynamic control of his guitar by how hard he hits the strings. Besides having everything turned to 10 would support the idea that compressor/expanders are less necessary for the Stones.

Besides as you well know, relative volume and compression are two different beasts. Of course Keith's guitar's gain fader is probably ridden a bit during the show and possibly even boost pedals are engaged by road crew, but that is completely different that engaging a compressor on his signal at FOH.

peace