Quote
DandelionPowderman
The Stripped version is fantastic

Like Charlie said: "Just as good as the original".

Eh. It makes me cringe, actually. Mick's singing is atrocious.

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Indeed, the essence is that studio products are totally misleading and artificial. As HM once said: it's like painting, layer over layer, using all kinds of tricks and modern technics.

The real thing is the live recording, especially on the bootlegs. Without any overdub or other kind of manipulation at all.

Sometimes the copy and pasting or overdubbing something really good is just as good as live recording.

Quote
GasLightStreet
Sometimes the copy and pasting or overdubbing something really good is just as good as live recording.

The Sticky Fingers BS guitar playing is indeed perfect.

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Maybe true in 1969, but with the huge track counts available these days, making room on the tape is rarely a problem. Automated mixing and 48-96 tracks usually allow all the parts to be kept. But as you suggest, it makes it even more difficult to identify any single continuous guitar track in the final mix. Mutt Lange would go so far as to record or sample separate notes on different guitar strings and make the chords in the mix!

peace

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Maybe true in 1969, but with the huge track counts available these days, making room on the tape is rarely a problem. Automated mixing and 48-96 tracks usually allow all the parts to be kept. But as you suggest, it makes it even more difficult to identify any single continuous guitar track in the final mix. Mutt Lange would go so far as to record or sample separate notes on different guitar strings and make the chords in the mix!

peace

Well, but you still have to make space in just 2 speakers. You may match the eq on the console and make a seamless transition between recorded parts using automation in or out of the computer. Mixes like Doom and Gloom didn't give us that perspective, the perspective of a band playing... Instead in modern Stones records we get a wall of guitars and while you might be able to get it sorted after listening carefully the vision of a band performance does not come through with such an approach. The intimacy we once had with them as recording artists has faded to a fog but they are more real than ever on stage, naked and unapologetic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-14 20:23 by DoomandGloom.

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Of course, but do you really believe that anything from Taylor is spliced into that Berry track when you're listening to it, keeping in mind his earlier takes?

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Of course, but do you really believe that anything from Taylor is spliced into that Berry track when you're listening to it, keeping in mind his earlier takes?

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

I mean, obviously you hear Chuck Berry riffs on a Stones record, you justifiably assume Keith, but still.

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Maybe true in 1969, but with the huge track counts available these days, making room on the tape is rarely a problem. Automated mixing and 48-96 tracks usually allow all the parts to be kept. But as you suggest, it makes it even more difficult to identify any single continuous guitar track in the final mix. Mutt Lange would go so far as to record or sample separate notes on different guitar strings and make the chords in the mix!

peace

Well, but you still have to make space in just 2 speakers. You may match the eq on the console and make a seamless transition between recorded parts using automation in or out of the computer. Mixes like Doom and Gloom didn't give us that perspective, the perspective of a band playing... Instead in modern Stones records we get a wall of guitars and while you might be able to get it sorted after listening carefully the vision of a band performance does not come through with such an approach. The intimacy we once had with them as recording artists has faded to a fog but they are more real than ever on stage, naked and unapologetic.

Indeed. But, the Stones even in the golden years always seemed to put tons of effort into the recording process that produced all those great tunes. Hours and hours of tracking and mixing, splicing the best parts of separate takes, overdubbing to get perfection. Even Jimmy Miller alludes to the huge amount of studio time used to produce a record with the fairly simple and intimate tunes in the Sticky Fingers liner notes. Most of their best tunes have never sounded as good live as the meticulously crafted studio efforts. Even "live" releases have gotten the treatment. Truly live Stones recordings are pretty easy to pick out. The Stones have always capitalized on the tricks in the studio to great effect, when the results started becoming less intimate was probably sometime in the 80's.

And although they have always been known for good concerts, I think their identity as a live act tended to eclipse their identity as recording artists when their recorded material started becoming less relevant than their classic songs performed live, which is of course all we get from them these days.

peace

Quote
Stoneburst

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Of course, but do you really believe that anything from Taylor is spliced into that Berry track when you're listening to it, keeping in mind his earlier takes?

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

Certainly not.

You know what would truly be amazing...Mick Taylor at the press conference...that would make me go on a cross-country road trip this summer.
Chances? Slim to none...right? Ah well...

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

I am REALLY hoping Mick Taylor not only joins the band for the NA tour, but sits in the whole set..or at least the whole SF set if there is one. Coming out for one song, as he did for much of the 2014 gigs (Satisfaction does not count) I am guessing would make it hard to find and get into the groove of the night.

'Hurry up out of the stage, plug in, start playing, get used to the sound, adjust, now start soloing' can't be remotely easy. The Stones have never been robots, live. They seem to often start a little rough, then settle into a groove (or not...and just have a sloppy show).

Hoping we get to hear the full sound of 3 guitars filling the stadiums this Summer.

Quote
LuxuryStones

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

Which are also much more interesting musically than the rather boring studio version.

They are on Dutch TV right now. Hyde Park last year. No Taylor broadcasted.

The next tour...should they not take some risks and do something different? It's getting boring and tedious. Once in a while, I hear some great tones from Keith, but most of the time, they are too predictable.

Listening to MT with the stones recently has not impressed me either. His playing seems fidgety and uncertain. I also can't be assed to listen through Rambler every time to see if they are creating any magic.

Maybe because he only got one track to play on, he was pressurized to overplay his limited part or because don't do the same drugs together anymore. Whatever the causes, MT's input was far from what I remember in the 70s. Got to reinvent oneself, do the unexpected, make the music come alive.

Why not get MT in for the whole show and work out the songs in new ways ? Seems like a dream come true. Keith, on record, was positive about MT adding more to the music, but in reality it never happened. Maybe not because of lacking will from the Stones, but just because it didn't sound very good, the chemistry was not there anymore. Chasing a past sound instead of creating a new.

I'd love them to make extensive use of MT in future shows and present something unexpected and exciting. But do they want to offer the time to work it out?

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Chacal
I can't see the point in arguing about this if the Stones themselves, plus Keith and Taylor are convinced that Mick Taylor plays on Brown Sugar.

I'm glad we got that issue resolved, then.
And the question who should be on stage when they play Sticky Fingers in its entirety is a no-brainer, really.

Nobody doubted that he played on it. We have that documented from the GS film as well as earlier demos. The point is that Keith overdubbed his track with the Chuck Berry-ish guitar on the final version.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but there just isn't an audible Taylor track on the studio version.

What we see as a few continuos performances guitar tracks with The Stones can be quite complex. It's possible some moments with Taylor and Keith are sliced together were eq'd and appear as one performance. They would likely do this when making room on the tape. I saw them do this on Steel Wheels by combining bass parts and considering adding tom fills from an alternate track.

Of course, but do you really believe that anything from Taylor is spliced into that Berry track when you're listening to it, keeping in mind his earlier takes?

I gave it a fresh listen. There's clearly a third guitar evident at first in the intro. On the right speaker the answer riff that we associate with Keith is also mixed with a rhythm guitar that hangs over just a bit against the riff. Another guitar can also be heard doubling the left channel "Chuck" guitar very evident in the sax solo. It could be the same track we hear in the intro and just a panning change but there is some clever use of doubles to fatten up the guitar sound. To my ear while the guitars all have the Ampeg style midrange dirt the tone is not consistent anywhere, brilliantly executed by the engineers but things like mic placement changes are pretty easy to hear. The impression that there's just 2 electrics no doubt is the intent of this great mix but there's some other guitars riding in and out. Are they highly significant? Hard to say, but it is a great record. Is it Taylor or Keith playing those doubles? Many times a mixer will look on muted tracks for a double to fatten up a section, give it energy or hide a small flaw, In that instance the last thing you'd worry about is who it is. While The Stones are generally all about the big picture there are also times when the odd man out gets thrown into the mix stew to keep band harmony. I'm sure many of you guitarists out there can relate and Mick Taylor in 1969 was a important cog in the band's future plans. He'd want the bragging rights to say he played on this great single.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-15 01:12 by DoomandGloom.

Quote
kleermaker

Quote
LuxuryStones

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

Which are also much more interesting musically than the rather boring studio version.

Boring studio version? One of the best, most exciting recordings they've ever done.

peace

Let's see...Blondie or Mick (no offense Blondie). MICK MICK MICK!!!

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
kleermaker

Quote
LuxuryStones

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

Which are also much more interesting musically than the rather boring studio version.

Boring studio version? One of the best, most exciting recordings they've ever done.

peace

Very danceable. Must have inspired many people to pick up a guitar, saxophone or a girl.

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
kleermaker

Quote
LuxuryStones

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

Which are also much more interesting musically than the rather boring studio version.

Boring studio version? One of the best, most exciting recordings they've ever done.

peace

I prefer the Taylor era live versions by a mile. Sorry and peace.

The studio version - Taylor or no - is really a perfect record. The Stones at their best. For live versions, I prefer the '73 ones, but kicking off the '72 tour was pretty great too.

Quote
kleermaker

Quote
LuxuryStones

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

Which are also much more interesting musically than the rather boring studio version.

I think you're in a class of your own there, when I was DJing, Brown sugar was the only guaranteed dancefloor filler, young & old........everytime...dead cert....

Quote
LuxuryStones
They are on Dutch TV right now. Hyde Park last year. No Taylor broadcasted.

What are you saying? They played the Hyde Park video and skipped(!) MR with MT? Really?

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
kleermaker

Quote
LuxuryStones

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

Which are also much more interesting musically than the rather boring studio version.

Boring studio version? One of the best, most exciting recordings they've ever done.

peace

+1

Quote
kleermaker

Quote
LuxuryStones

Quote
Stoneburst

Any chance that Berry track is actually Taylor, not Keith? That was always the part he played live prior to '72.

If you want to hear Taylor on BS you have to listen to the live recordings.

Which are also much more interesting musically than the rather boring studio version.

You're taking this too far, kleerie. There is a band called the Rolling Stones playing there as well...

Quote
LuxuryStones
They are on Dutch TV right now. Hyde Park last year. No Taylor broadcasted.

Try to watch the last track: Mick Taylor plays acoustics on Satisfaction

So...any real word on whether or not Taylor will join them for this tour? Seems unlikely given the Facebook post allegedly from him saying he hasn't been invited, and another poster's claim to inside knowledge of same...Pity.

Quote
runaway

Quote
LuxuryStones
They are on Dutch TV right now. Hyde Park last year. No Taylor broadcasted.

Try to watch the last track: Mick Taylor plays acoustics on Satisfaction

Ah, very interesting. Thanks.