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drbryant

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kleermaker

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman
Kleerie is not very fond of horns.

Had there been Mozart-esque woodwinds on LIB, perhaps he'd have approved the album, though

;-)

There's a lack of good guitar work on LIB, showing Keith's limited guitar qualities (he could camouflage that partly by using overdubs, f.i. on the beginning of GS), which isn't compensated by Brian's instrumental input.

LWM is definitely not my song, Country Honk is a filler, YGTS is so so, and so is the title song. But GS, LIV, MR and YCAGWYW are all very great songs that are performed poorly on LIB (except the already mentioned exception), but are performed very well during the Taylor-era, because the guitars were excellent in that period.

Utterly perplexed - Gimme Shelter is not only debatably the best Stones track of all time, it's among the greatest rock tracks in history. And frankly, YCAGWYW isn't far behind. Monkey Man?

There is the band, the Rolling Stones, with Mick Jagger, Keith Richards and Charlie Watts as essential core of their sound, and Richards and Jagger as the main source of songs, with a large variety of songs and styles during the years. This variety was often helped (but not originated) from the diverse people they played with: Brian Jones, Mick Taylor, Ron Wood, Bill Preston, Bobby Keys, Jimmy Miller and more. Obviously, when a band touches so many different aspects, in the range of blues, rock n roll, pop, reggae, and influences from funk, disco, punk-rock, 70's rock, it's inevitable that people who like their music have preferences for certain periods. But, in general, I think it's safe to say that if you like the Stones, you like songs from all their periods, since they share so many qualities, whether it's Heart of Stone, Satisfaction, Jumping Jack Flash, Start Me Up or - less well known songs like I Am Waiting, Parachute Woman, Sway, Slave or - what the hell - Like A Thief in the Night. These people - in short - you could call "fans of the Rolling Stones". A band that in the first place is a band, which means: a band, for better or worse, with good and bad times.
Then there are people who like everything that Mick Taylor does. Since Taylor played with the Stones for a while, so they like that period of the Stones as well. But obviously, the Stones loose interest for them when Taylor is not there, which is fair enough. You could name these people "Taylor fans".
And then there are people who think that the Stones only existed because of Taylor, thanks to Taylor and for Taylor. That all their best work was done with Taylor. That Satisfaction, Citadel, Jumping Jack Flash, Jig Saw Puzzle, Gimme Shelter, Slave, Start Me Up, to only name a few, are just details that humbly bow in the mere presence of Sway and Can't You Hear Me Knocking. I am not sure how to call these people. But perhaps "perplexing" is a good word for it.

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DandelionPowderman
Monkey Man, anyone?

My vote goes to Monkey Man.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
Monkey Man, anyone?

My vote goes to Monkey Man.

The song with the absolutely amazing slide guitar and killer rhythm guitar? Most definitely yes.

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drbryant

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kleermaker

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman
Kleerie is not very fond of horns.

Had there been Mozart-esque woodwinds on LIB, perhaps he'd have approved the album, though

;-)

There's a lack of good guitar work on LIB, showing Keith's limited guitar qualities (he could camouflage that partly by using overdubs, f.i. on the beginning of GS), which isn't compensated by Brian's instrumental input.

LWM is definitely not my song, Country Honk is a filler, YGTS is so so, and so is the title song. But GS, LIV, MR and YCAGWYW are all very great songs that are performed poorly on LIB (except the already mentioned exception), but are performed very well during the Taylor-era, because the guitars were excellent in that period.

Utterly perplexed - Gimme Shelter is not only debatably the best Stones track of all time, it's among the greatest rock tracks in history. And frankly, YCAGWYW isn't far behind. Monkey Man?

I didn't say they aren't great songs, on the contrary! But I don't like the performances and the way they sound on LIB. I love them live, though. During the Taylor era, that is.

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matxil

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drbryant

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kleermaker

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman
Kleerie is not very fond of horns.

Had there been Mozart-esque woodwinds on LIB, perhaps he'd have approved the album, though

;-)

There's a lack of good guitar work on LIB, showing Keith's limited guitar qualities (he could camouflage that partly by using overdubs, f.i. on the beginning of GS), which isn't compensated by Brian's instrumental input.

LWM is definitely not my song, Country Honk is a filler, YGTS is so so, and so is the title song. But GS, LIV, MR and YCAGWYW are all very great songs that are performed poorly on LIB (except the already mentioned exception), but are performed very well during the Taylor-era, because the guitars were excellent in that period.

Utterly perplexed - Gimme Shelter is not only debatably the best Stones track of all time, it's among the greatest rock tracks in history. And frankly, YCAGWYW isn't far behind. Monkey Man?

There is the band, the Rolling Stones, with Mick Jagger, Keith Richards and Charlie Watts as essential core of their sound, and Richards and Jagger as the main source of songs, with a large variety of songs and styles during the years. This variety was often helped (but not originated) from the diverse people they played with: Brian Jones, Mick Taylor, Ron Wood, Bill Preston, Bobby Keys, Jimmy Miller and more. Obviously, when a band touches so many different aspects, in the range of blues, rock n roll, pop, reggae, and influences from funk, disco, punk-rock, 70's rock, it's inevitable that people who like their music have preferences for certain periods. But, in general, I think it's safe to say that if you like the Stones, you like songs from all their periods, since they share so many qualities, whether it's Heart of Stone, Satisfaction, Jumping Jack Flash, Start Me Up or - less well known songs like I Am Waiting, Parachute Woman, Sway, Slave or - what the hell - Like A Thief in the Night. These people - in short - you could call "fans of the Rolling Stones". A band that in the first place is a band, which means: a band, for better or worse, with good and bad times.
Then there are people who like everything that Mick Taylor does. Since Taylor played with the Stones for a while, so they like that period of the Stones as well. But obviously, the Stones loose interest for them when Taylor is not there, which is fair enough. You could name these people "Taylor fans".
And then there are people who think that the Stones only existed because of Taylor, thanks to Taylor and for Taylor. That all their best work was done with Taylor. That Satisfaction, Citadel, Jumping Jack Flash, Jig Saw Puzzle, Gimme Shelter, Slave, Start Me Up, to only name a few, are just details that humbly bow in the mere presence of Sway and Can't You Hear Me Knocking. I am not sure how to call these people. But perhaps "perplexing" is a good word for it.

Too nonsensical to reply to.

That's the amazing part, kleerie. These studio cuts are famous for magical guitar playing – yet you're dismissing them like irritating flies on a hot summer night...

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman
Monkey Man, anyone?

A very wise and knowledgable IORR poster had this to say about the impact of Through the Past Darkly (only one Taylor track) and LIB in 2010:

" [TTPD] was THE album (UK-version of course) that made me a life-long Stones music fan. I was about 14 years old when it was released. Of course I knew the earlier Stonessongs like Satisfaction etc., but this album caught me definitely..... Very soon after having bought TTPD I bought LIB, and that album hit me too. It sealed my fate musically, because actually I love the music of only few composers/songwriters/bands. And there's only one band I really feel musically attracted to.

About a year later I bought YaYa's. And on that album I discovered a very new and exciting element: the Taylor factor. At that time we got a very simple stereo pick-up and I remember that I almost put my head in the little speaker where you could hear Taylor the best. Albums were very expensive in those days, so it took me a while to get BB, Their Satanic, BTB, Aftermath, High Tide Green and Grass (wonderful title!), the predecessor of TTPD, and all the albums from 1964 and 1965. Boy, I was in a musical paradise back then!"

link: [www.iorr.org]

Good job Turner, you did your homework well. This time.

I still agree with it. It is a story from my youth. Now I'm an older and a wiser man. And a bit more critical too, of course.

@ DandelionPowderman

I just had a listen to my Let It Bleed vinyl from 69 and I' m impressed how good this album still sounds after all these years. Monkey Man originated from some song - writing trips to Napels in Italy during the Beggars Banquet period. Keith heavy on guitar and Nicky Hopkins on piano.
Mick Jagger and Keith voacals.
Charlie Watts great drumming.
Bass Bill Wyman.
Tambourine Jimmy Miller.
Vibes Bill Wyman

The album LIB was always one of my favourite and still is.

Monkey Man - The Rolling Stones

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kleermaker
Now I'm an older and a wiser man.

Congrats for the first part.

The second part is wishful thinking.
To belittle LIB and the work of Keith Richards is really the dumbest you ever presented here.

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runaway
@ DandelionPowderman

I just had a listen to my Let It Bleed vinyl from 69 and I' m impressed how good this album still sounds after all these years. Monkey Man originated from some song - writing trips to Napels in Italy during the Beggars Banquet period. Keith heavy on guitar and Nicky Hopkins on piano.
Mick Jagger and Keith voacals.
Charlie Watts great drumming.
Bass Bill Wyman.
Tambourine Jimmy Miller.
Vibes Bill Wyman

The album LIB was always one of my favourite and still is.

Monkey Man - The Rolling Stones

The same Italy trip when they wrote Midnight Rambler?

Must have been some extra nutritious italian wine around on that stay

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shortfatfanny

To belittle LIB and the work of Keith Richards.

I don't think one can belittle things, only persons. Think about that.

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DandelionPowderman

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runaway
@ DandelionPowderman

I just had a listen to my Let It Bleed vinyl from 69 and I' m impressed how good this album still sounds after all these years. Monkey Man originated from some song - writing trips to Napels in Italy during the Beggars Banquet period. Keith heavy on guitar and Nicky Hopkins on piano.
Mick Jagger and Keith voacals.
Charlie Watts great drumming.
Bass Bill Wyman.
Tambourine Jimmy Miller.
Vibes Bill Wyman

The album LIB was always one of my favourite and still is.

Monkey Man - The Rolling Stones

The same Italy trip when they wrote Midnight Rambler?

Must have been some extra nutritious italian wine around on that stay

Midnight Rambler was recorded during the Beggars Banquet sessions but I'm not sure when the lyrics came to shine, Italian wine may have inspired.

«That's a song Keith and I really wrote together. We were on a holiday in Italy. In this very beautiful hill town, Positano, for a few nights. Why we should write such a dark song in this beautiful, sunny place, I really don't know. We wrote everything there - the tempo changes, everything. And I'm playing the harmonica in these little cafés, and there's Keith with the guitar».

- Mick Jagger, 1995

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DandelionPowderman
«That's a song Keith and I really wrote together. We were on a holiday in Italy. In this very beautiful hill town, Positano, for a few nights. Why we should write such a dark song in this beautiful, sunny place, I really don't know. We wrote everything there - the tempo changes, everything. And I'm playing the harmonica in these little cafés, and there's Keith with the guitar».

- Mick Jagger, 1995

Great contradiction, sunny weather in beautiful country side and their creation of a song full of darkness, a great piece of art.

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DandelionPowderman
«That's a song Keith and I really wrote together. We were on a holiday in Italy. In this very beautiful hill town, Positano, for a few nights. Why we should write such a dark song in this beautiful, sunny place, I really don't know. We wrote everything there - the tempo changes, everything. And I'm playing the harmonica in these little cafés, and there's Keith with the guitar».

- Mick Jagger, 1995

glad you brought that quote back to light, DP-

its one of my favorites from so many interviews, because of the image(s) it conjures..

makes me imagine a place I'd really like to be.

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kleermaker

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shortfatfanny

To belittle LIB and the work of Keith Richards.

I don't think one can belittle things, only persons. Think about that.

Both is possible.Educate yourself before teaching others.

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duke richardson

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DandelionPowderman
«That's a song Keith and I really wrote together. We were on a holiday in Italy. In this very beautiful hill town, Positano, for a few nights. Why we should write such a dark song in this beautiful, sunny place, I really don't know. We wrote everything there - the tempo changes, everything. And I'm playing the harmonica in these little cafés, and there's Keith with the guitar».

- Mick Jagger, 1995

glad you brought that quote back to light, DP-

its one of my favorites from so many interviews, because of the image(s) it conjures..

makes me imagine a place I'd really like to be.

Yeah, and add the image of Nick Drake (one of my other heroes) contacting Mick and Keith in a cafe there to listen to some of his tapes – and we have the complete darkness-vibe intact in that sunny italian village

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duke richardson

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DandelionPowderman
«That's a song Keith and I really wrote together. We were on a holiday in Italy. In this very beautiful hill town, Positano, for a few nights. Why we should write such a dark song in this beautiful, sunny place, I really don't know. We wrote everything there - the tempo changes, everything. And I'm playing the harmonica in these little cafés, and there's Keith with the guitar».

- Mick Jagger, 1995

glad you brought that quote back to light, DP-

its one of my favorites from so many interviews, because of the image(s) it conjures..

makes me imagine a place I'd really like to be.

Wow great quote
Positano really is beautiful I highly recommend it



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-12 18:05 by Turner68.

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shortfatfanny

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kleermaker

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shortfatfanny

To belittle LIB and the work of Keith Richards.

I don't think one can belittle things, only persons. Think about that.

Both is possible.Educate yourself before teaching others.

Think a little bit harder. You're confusing some things here. I'm sure you'll find out.

You can belittle the quality of things if you're expressing a negative opinion of something, just as you did, kleerie.

From Merriam-Webster:
"Belittle: to describe (someone or something) as little or unimportant"

But maybe kleermaker knows better than Merriam-Webster. Or he is confused with the Dutch word "kleineren" which - indeed - can only apply to persons.

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Turner68

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duke richardson

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DandelionPowderman
«That's a song Keith and I really wrote together. We were on a holiday in Italy. In this very beautiful hill town, Positano, for a few nights. Why we should write such a dark song in this beautiful, sunny place, I really don't know. We wrote everything there - the tempo changes, everything. And I'm playing the harmonica in these little cafés, and there's Keith with the guitar».

- Mick Jagger, 1995

glad you brought that quote back to light, DP-

its one of my favorites from so many interviews, because of the image(s) it conjures..

makes me imagine a place I'd really like to be.

Wow great quote
Positano really is beautiful I highly recommend it

and the inside/outside imagery..

I see a couple of 25 yr old English dudes in a family owned café there in an Italian village..they're playing music and talking, amid folks who leave them alone, possibly because they don't know who Mick and Keith are, or they know but think its cool so they leave them alone..

wonderful smells, great rustic setting, delicious village wine..

and Midnight Rambler coming into being..they were probably playing bits of other songs as well

Bit like this?

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DandelionPowderman
You can belittle the quality of things if you're expressing a negative opinion of something, just as you did, kleerie.

No you can't, because the quality of things and especially art is subjective per se, because it simply depends on the people who judge it. Besides belittling has an emotional component in it, just like insulting and offending etc. (result: hurt feelings if the person in question is sensitive for it). Or do you think that things can be offended and thus have feelings? I guess not.

Expressing a negative opinion is actually critique, especially if the critique is explained, just like I did. But critique can hurt creators and fans alike, as we all know too well. Of course that is no reason to not expressing it. But if you really think that criticizing something is the same as belittling it, then that reproach hasn't any meaning at all.

The Rolling Stones You Got The Silver

This is just you resonating and guessing, kleerie

In reality expressing a negative opinion is a synonymous phrase for belittling, be it art or other subjective matters.

What you don't get is that your negative opinion of something that others cherish can be perceived as belittling.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
You can belittle the quality of things if you're expressing a negative opinion of something, just as you did, kleerie.

No you can't, because the quality of things and especially art is subjective per se, because it simply depends on the people who judge it. Besides belittling has an emotional component in it, just like insulting and offending etc. (result: hurt feelings if the person in question is sensitive for it). Or do you think that things can be offended and thus have feelings? I guess not.

Expressing a negative opinion is actually critique, especially if the critique is explained, just like I did. But critique can hurt creators and fans alike, as we all know too well. Of course that is no reason to not expressing it. But if you really think that criticizing something is the same as belittling it, then that reproach hasn't any meaning at all.

Belittling things is indeed possible, happens all the time. A man can stand alone in front of mona lisa and make belittling comments about it. Says to himself "that's not even close to a masterpiece". Doesn't have to have an audience or make an emotional impact on anyone. The nature of belittling involves critical and judgmental thinking. Belittling is really a type of critique, more descriptive because it infers a lack of importance in the object or person being belittled.

In any case belittling does tend to say more about the person doing it, in general, than about the object or person being belittled.

peace

The most recent issue of guitar world has this to say about Mick Taylor, written by Slash:

"Mick Taylor had the biggest influence on me without me even knowing it. My favorite Stones records were Beggars Banquet, Let It Bleed and Sticky Fingers. Those three were major to me because I was exposed to those records as a kid when they first came out. Mick Taylor played on a couple of those records and went on to play with the Stones for a couple more. As I got older and started playing guitar, I always gravitated to his style.
People always mention Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck, Angus Young…all the obvious ones. But there are guys like Mick Taylor and Joe Walsh that were as important. Mick Taylor had a really cool, round-toned bluesy sort of thing that I thought was really effective.
One of the greatest Mick Taylor solos is on “Can’t You Hear Me Knocking?” from Sticky Fingers. It’s the kind of stuff that’s almost like old Eric Clapton -- it’s very simple stuff, but it’s about how the notes are placed and how you approach them. The new guard of guitarists always forgets about doing simplistic and very effective guitar playing that speaks to you. It’s not all about two-handed tapping."

Mick Taylor posted this excerpt on his Facebook page. There has a been a flurry of activity on it this week, in part in celebration of the anniversary of him joining the Stones. Perhaps he is gearing up for something?

A pretty cool post from Bobby Whitlock on Taylors FB page too. Especially interesting parts in bold, imo.

~Just because it is written that Keith Richards played the piano on "Just Want To See His Face" doesn't make it so!~I played the electric Wurlitzer and it was as a response from Mick asking me about my Dad being a preacher~He asked me to play something with a gospel feel~I started playing and Mick Taylor started playing the bass and Charlie started playing some rolling drums~Mick started sing, "That's alright, that's alright!"~ "I don't want to talk about Jesus, I just want to see his face~~~Keith was not even in the building~He got writer credit and credit for playing the piano~I have reached out to both of them several times with no reply~I'm glad that I turned down the opportunity to play with them~I'm probably the only person on the planet who turned them down~Eric and I were putting together a band of our own at the time~I told Bobby Keys that they should get the guy that plays piano with the Allman Brothers~They did and Chuck has been there ever since~

peace