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DandelionPowderman
I think the debate of Taylor as a songwriter has run its course.
He's had 47 years to prove his songwriting abilities after he left. And never once have I heard about Taylor bringing a song to the rest of the band that they could embellish. It was always the other way around.
Taylor was fantastic in terms of embellishing already existing songs - songs that already could be played round the campfire with vocals and an acoustic guitar (or in a train compartment, like Jagger did with Moonlight Mile when he played the entire song – with lyrics and all – for Taylor).
Did Taylor write Till The Next Goodbye? He claims he did. My guess is that he made the "Mexican-esque" double-string motif in the choruses. Maybe it is a Jagger, Richards, Taylor and Simon-tune? Who knows.
However, it could be a good example of a Taylor-contribution anyway - a nice fill that excels the song, but at the same time a disposable part in terms of writing the song. There could have been a different fill there, with horns, by Keith or by backing vocals. The song was still there.
This just speculation, of course (he could have written the D/G/A-chords), but it also paints a picture of songwriting and what one may or may not expect to get a credit for.
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Rocktiludrop
I really would enjoy someone putting their thoughts towards this aspect of Mick T, it's fascinating in a way more than success, because for the life of me i don't understand how you can be as good as Taylor and do so little about it, he obviously has some issues with getting his act together, Jimmy Page is similar, why has he not replaced Plant with another singer and toured for decades, same sort of lack of drive and confidence.
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TravelinMan
First of all, Taylor never hired a lawyer and specifically said “I wrote these songs.” He said he feels like n retrospect he should have received some credit. He said he expected some credit and Jagger told him he would. He also said the songs would have been written, perhaps, but they wouldn’t have sounded the way they did.
The Stones are a different animal when it comes to songwriting credit, we all know this. A guy like John Mayall might have given credit much more freely than the Glimmers. I’ve personally received songwriting credit for programming a drum part. So it really is subjective.
Whether you believe he deserves it or not, he felt he did to some extent and Jagger told him as much. Taylor also said he just think they forgot and didn’t do it on purpose, it just didn’t matter to them. So not keeping your lead guitarist happy is a reason a lead guitarist might leave a band. It’s that simple.
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DandelionPowdermanQuote
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terraplane
The three tracks Mick Taylor says he co-wrote and was promised credit for:
Moonlight Mile
Till The Next Goodbye
Time Waits For No One
He’s said a few different songs in different interviews over the years, and it’s not limited to what you’ve written.
Sway
Can’t You Hear Me Knocking (Coda)
Moonlight Mile
Ventilator Blues
Hide Your Love
Time Waits For No One
Tops
Till the Next… I haven’t read he actually said he helped write that, just that he contributed to it. He never specifically mentioned it like the others.
The only song I've read he expected songwriting credits for is Till The Next Goodbye. So did Carly Simon, btw.
Where did you read that?
I believe the Taylor-quote was in Nick Kent's book (not that he's especially trustworthy).
The Carly Simon-quote has been discussed here before.
It's from the book REBEL, ROCK STAR, RAMBLER, ROGUE by Marc Spitz (on p. 191) the following quote by Carly Simon about Mick:
CARLY SIMON: "We wrote a song together that became a song on the Stones' next album called TILL THE NEXT GOODBYE. I thought that that was going to be a joint venture, but I'd never heard from Mick about how he'd like me to share the royalties. It's the very least I can do to thank Mick for turning what could of been an ordinary record [YOU'RE SO VAIN on which Mick sang backing vocals] into an iconic huge song for me over the years—so, my god, let him take all of my songs and say that he wrote them>
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liddasQuote
Rocktiludrop
I really would enjoy someone putting their thoughts towards this aspect of Mick T, it's fascinating in a way more than success, because for the life of me i don't understand how you can be as good as Taylor and do so little about it, he obviously has some issues with getting his act together, Jimmy Page is similar, why has he not replaced Plant with another singer and toured for decades, same sort of lack of drive and confidence.
I think that only MT himself can answer those questions.
That said, is it really true that MT did so little with his talent?
His talent allowed to replace Clapton and Peter Green in Mayall's band when he was only a teenager.
At 20 he joined the Stones to become an integral part of the band.
Almost 10 years after he left the Stones, he was still good enough to be recruited by Bob Dylan. I mean, B O B D Y L A N !!!
How many great guitarists in the world would have traded a testicle to achieve a fraction of what MT obtained in his career!
MT was an hugely talented musician, but couldn't give a damn to develop a flashy guitar-hero style to compete with showmen like Jeff Beck and later Van Halen.
But above all, MT was only an average singer and could not compose any good pop songs.
These ere the only reasons why most people today know who Eric Clapton is but don't know Mick Taylor.
C
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Rocktiludrop
I really would enjoy someone putting their thoughts towards this aspect of Mick T, it's fascinating in a way more than success, because for the life of me i don't understand how you can be as good as Taylor and do so little about it, he obviously has some issues with getting his act together,
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Send It To me
I'm sure this has been posted on before, but it seems strange that Taylor never cashed in with a book. I wonder if Stones paid him NOT to write one, ha.
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Rocktiludrop
Song writing apart, ( yeah he clearly isn't a song writer in his own right ), but that shouldn't have prevented him from finding a great singer performer as a foil for him to deliver great live concerts showcasing his Stones related work and some great blues etc. What I've seen of him through the decades live is a little unprofessional, he didn't really try to form his own band, I'm sure if he had he would have sold out Arenas with the right play lists with lots of Stones tracks.
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Rocktiludrop
Song writing apart, ( yeah he clearly isn't a song writer in his own right ), but that shouldn't have prevented him from finding a great singer performer as a foil for him to deliver great live concerts showcasing his Stones related work and some great blues etc. What I've seen of him through the decades live is a little unprofessional, he didn't really try to form his own band, I'm sure if he had he would have sold out Arenas with the right play lists with lots of Stones tracks.
But, as a matter of fact, that is exactly what MT tried to do in the 90s, alone (think of "Stranger in this town") or with am established singer (Carla Olson, for example).
Problem is, his act didn't sell out arenas. It could hardly sell out small clubs.
As a consequence, the budget for tour production fell down, and with less money available also the shows became, as you say, unprofessional.
I've seen Taylor play solo many times.
I think he always did what he wanted to do.
But he never really developed as an artist.
C
With Jagger or Keiths help it would have been worthy of being on a good Stones albunQuote
DandelionPowderman
IMO, this is the best tune Taylor ever wrote. It's really good.
The production on this album leaves a lot to be desired, though.
[youtu.be]
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DandelionPowderman
IMO, this is the best tune Taylor ever wrote. It's really good.
The production on this album leaves a lot to be desired, though.
[youtu.be]
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RocktiludropQuote
liddasQuote
Rocktiludrop
Song writing apart, ( yeah he clearly isn't a song writer in his own right ), but that shouldn't have prevented him from finding a great singer performer as a foil for him to deliver great live concerts showcasing his Stones related work and some great blues etc. What I've seen of him through the decades live is a little unprofessional, he didn't really try to form his own band, I'm sure if he had he would have sold out Arenas with the right play lists with lots of Stones tracks.
But, as a matter of fact, that is exactly what MT tried to do in the 90s, alone (think of "Stranger in this town") or with am established singer (Carla Olson, for example).
Problem is, his act didn't sell out arenas. It could hardly sell out small clubs.
As a consequence, the budget for tour production fell down, and with less money available also the shows became, as you say, unprofessional.
I've seen Taylor play solo many times.
I think he always did what he wanted to do.
But he never really developed as an artist.
C
Agreed, commercially he picked the wrong band, wrong singer, no offence to Carla Olson but she's a million miles away from a rock singer like Mick, and the song choices were bland and not well performed as a band.
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liddasQuote
Rocktiludrop
Song writing apart, ( yeah he clearly isn't a song writer in his own right ), but that shouldn't have prevented him from finding a great singer performer as a foil for him to deliver great live concerts showcasing his Stones related work and some great blues etc. What I've seen of him through the decades live is a little unprofessional, he didn't really try to form his own band, I'm sure if he had he would have sold out Arenas with the right play lists with lots of Stones tracks.
But, as a matter of fact, that is exactly what MT tried to do in the 90s, alone (think of "Stranger in this town") or with am established singer (Carla Olson, for example).
Problem is, his act didn't sell out arenas. It could hardly sell out small clubs.
As a consequence, the budget for tour production fell down, and with less money available also the shows became, as you say, unprofessional.
I've seen Taylor play solo many times.
I think he always did what he wanted to do.
But he never really developed as an artist.
C
Agreed, commercially he picked the wrong band, wrong singer, no offence to Carla Olson but she's a million miles away from a rock singer like Mick, and the song choices were bland and not well performed as a band.
I have buddy who was in Nashville during that time and he said he thought they were dating. Just what I heard.
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DandelionPowderman
IMO, this is the best tune Taylor ever wrote. It's really good.
The production on this album leaves a lot to be desired, though.
[youtu.be]
Why did Wood get the credits for some songs instead? Wood himself explains it, if you want a credit you need to ask for it immediately with the Stones asking for it after years makes little sense, because it is difficult to remember what who did who did during the sessions.Quote
RocktiludropQuote
TravelinMan
First of all, Taylor never hired a lawyer and specifically said “I wrote these songs.” He said he feels like n retrospect he should have received some credit. He said he expected some credit and Jagger told him he would. He also said the songs would have been written, perhaps, but they wouldn’t have sounded the way they did.
The Stones are a different animal when it comes to songwriting credit, we all know this. A guy like John Mayall might have given credit much more freely than the Glimmers. I’ve personally received songwriting credit for programming a drum part. So it really is subjective.
Whether you believe he deserves it or not, he felt he did to some extent and Jagger told him as much. Taylor also said he just think they forgot and didn’t do it on purpose, it just didn’t matter to them. So not keeping your lead guitarist happy is a reason a lead guitarist might leave a band. It’s that simple.
Great post TravelinMan, this sums it up and it's why i believe he left.
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TestifyWhy did Wood get the credits for some songs instead? Wood himself explains it, if you want a credit you need to ask for it immediately with the Stones asking for it after years makes little sense, because it is difficult to remember what who did who did during the sessions.Quote
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TravelinMan
First of all, Taylor never hired a lawyer and specifically said “I wrote these songs.” He said he feels like n retrospect he should have received some credit. He said he expected some credit and Jagger told him he would. He also said the songs would have been written, perhaps, but they wouldn’t have sounded the way they did.
The Stones are a different animal when it comes to songwriting credit, we all know this. A guy like John Mayall might have given credit much more freely than the Glimmers. I’ve personally received songwriting credit for programming a drum part. So it really is subjective.
Whether you believe he deserves it or not, he felt he did to some extent and Jagger told him as much. Taylor also said he just think they forgot and didn’t do it on purpose, it just didn’t matter to them. So not keeping your lead guitarist happy is a reason a lead guitarist might leave a band. It’s that simple.
Great post TravelinMan, this sums it up and it's why i believe he left.
Wood did it, Taylor could have done it too, the truth is that this was not the real reason that pushed Taylor away.
As Taylor himself said, drugs played an important role and at the time the Stones were experiencing a moment of uncertainty regardless of Taylor. Nobody at the time would have bet anything on the Rolling Stones who by all accounts were close to disbanding. This coupled with Taylor's drug problems drove him away, not the credits, which weren't in Taylor's head at the time.
If Taylor really cared about those credits he would get them, there were in fact financial deals between the band and him.
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TravelinManQuote
TestifyWhy did Wood get the credits for some songs instead? Wood himself explains it, if you want a credit you need to ask for it immediately with the Stones asking for it after years makes little sense, because it is difficult to remember what who did who did during the sessions.Quote
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TravelinMan
First of all, Taylor never hired a lawyer and specifically said “I wrote these songs.” He said he feels like n retrospect he should have received some credit. He said he expected some credit and Jagger told him he would. He also said the songs would have been written, perhaps, but they wouldn’t have sounded the way they did.
The Stones are a different animal when it comes to songwriting credit, we all know this. A guy like John Mayall might have given credit much more freely than the Glimmers. I’ve personally received songwriting credit for programming a drum part. So it really is subjective.
Whether you believe he deserves it or not, he felt he did to some extent and Jagger told him as much. Taylor also said he just think they forgot and didn’t do it on purpose, it just didn’t matter to them. So not keeping your lead guitarist happy is a reason a lead guitarist might leave a band. It’s that simple.
Great post TravelinMan, this sums it up and it's why i believe he left.
Wood did it, Taylor could have done it too, the truth is that this was not the real reason that pushed Taylor away.
As Taylor himself said, drugs played an important role and at the time the Stones were experiencing a moment of uncertainty regardless of Taylor. Nobody at the time would have bet anything on the Rolling Stones who by all accounts were close to disbanding. This coupled with Taylor's drug problems drove him away, not the credits, which weren't in Taylor's head at the time.
If Taylor really cared about those credits he would get them, there were in fact financial deals between the band and him.
Sorry, I have to call BS here. First of all, trying to compare Taylor and Wood doesn’t work. Wood is older and was in a major band(s) for years. He understood how it worked. Taylor was looked after by elder statesman, John Mayall, who gave him credit when it was due. Taylor was taken care of and then joined the Stones as what, 19/20 year old? Talk about being thrown in the fire.
Secondly, are you totally ignoring the Nick Kent interview where Taylor said Jagger promised him credit? They obviously wrote together without Richards.[/quote
Yep, agreed, Taylor was too naive to realise he would have to cause bad feelings to get credits, he took Mick on his word as a gentleman, Taylors pride and integrity was probably seen as weakness.