Tell Me :
Talk
I have to say that I am not so happy about this "yes man"-stuff.
Besides, like what Palace Revolution 2000 indicates, and in accordance with sayings on this site, it seems that Ronnie Wood was instrumental in preventing the rift between Mick and Keith from developing into an incurable and full scale breakdown of the Stones before 1989.
And, paradoxially, that is the irony of it, with the arrival of punk and "new wave" in the later '70s, somehow Ronnie Wood also appeared as a more adequate guitarist in the Stones than Mick Taylor probably would have done at that particular time.
Re Ron Wood as a "yes-man": I think that Jagger and Richards could speak perfectly well for themselves.
Re Mick Taylor not suitable for the punk and new wave era: Listen to the Kemper Arena '81: Taylors musical contribution (unrehearsed) is as significant as Ron Wood's rehearsed contribution. This more or less proves that Taylor would have fit in perfectly well had he stayed with the Stones.
I have got to admit that my point of view with reference to the Stones in a new wave context was nothing more than a supposition. I had no real basis for it. I have never heard anything from that Kemper Arena concert. I had even forgotten that I have read at least parts of a thread about it.
From that thread I now get the impression that Mick Taylor more or less was able to adapt to a changed Rolling Stones.
What I may wonder about is a question though. If it was not about adapting himself to a changed Stones, but instead Mick Taylor in a, by hypothesis, continued membership in the band, would his guitar playing have developed in that direction? That, and not his adaptability to a given guitar style, would really have been the proof of the pudding. To that question, however, I have myself no basis for an answer.
That is an impression that makes me wonder once again: Could Mick Taylor also have contributed to be a solution to unspecified problems during the ongoing studio work?
Good one. Almost everything the Rolling Stones have played in the guitar department through the years has been rooted in blues and rock, no matter what style the Stones
wanted to express, be it rock, hardrock, blues, pop, reggae, funky, punky, country, psychedelic/ experimental etc.. There are only a few examples of all these styles (except blues and Rock of course) coming from Taylor after he left the Stones, but pure musically I think he could have done it. Whether Mick Taylor would have been an easy partner to cooperate with as a Rolling Stone in the studio because the Stones wanted to get along with 'the music market of the day' is a question we will never be able to answer, but..likely not. He was no "yes-man"; probably wanted to put his own musical stamp, much to the disagreement of Jagger and Richards.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 14:17 by TheflyingDutchman.
I don't follow this line of talk that Ronnie is the go between that keeps the band together, Mick will do what Mick will do to make the big bucks, Keith will toe the line with Mick to keep the band together, Ronnie doesn't come into it, Mick and Keith usually write the bulk of material pre studio or in the studio before Ronnie gets involved, the songs are written.
As for touring, Mick and Keith spend a fraction of time together, Mick and Keith will do what they have to do to continue as the Stones, a little thing like hating each others guts isn't going to get in the way.
As for Ronnie being suited to the punk era, are you seriously telling me that Ronnie's influence on Black And Blue and Some Girls is an improvement on Mick Taylor's influence on Sticky Fingers and Exile etc ??. No way, Roonie's song Hey Negrita is album filler and Some Girls are all Jagger Richards compositions.
Acc. to Tarlé Jagger made absolutely sure Parsons never went down to the basement while he stayed at Nellcote. In other words there's not a single note played by Parsons on the 1971 EOMS master reels.
So Exile was not Keith's idea of what the Stones should sound like ??
And yet, throughout those "dreadful" years, Mick socialized with Ronnie regularly, wrote songs with him, he helped arrange songs for Mick's solo projects (as did Charlie), he joined Mick onstage in 1992, Mick helped with Ronnie's solo projects (including helping him get solo deals), Mick encouraged him to go to rehab countless times, was supportive of his many efforts to clean up, etc. Rather expensive loyalty for a "freeloader" from someone you describe as "cheap." One would almost think they were friends and that Mick respected him as a player and songwriter.
And yes, I agree, their best work on stage or in the studio was during the Taylor years (well, and a year before he joined as well).
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 21:36 by Rocky Dijon.
And yet everything i mentioned in my post was a fair observation other than a few fleeting instances and occasions between 79' to 2002 of them socializing and working together without Keith.
Of course Mick encouraged him to go rehab, the money involved with those tours was colossal, i remember Mick saying during the 80's that the Stones would have trouble crossing the road let alone touring, i think Ronnie was very much the at the center of that comment, but at that time there was no way Keith would allow Mick to fire Ronnie from the band, Ronnie and Keith were tight during this time frame, as i said drink and drug buddies, Keith insisted on keeping Ronnie in the band.
Sorry Rocky for seeing things in a more cynical way than you when it comes to relationships between band members, i can see where you are coming from though, Mick has shown a lot of loyalty towards Ronnie over the years and Ronnie is doing his best to repay Mick and Keith for their patience by putting in great performances in recent years.
Well, I was not talking about Ronnie Wood at any time as you do, but at the moment when the Stones almost split up.
All the same, it is possible that I have fallen prey to a myth. In case, I am not the only one.
For instance, one thread with the title "did Ronnie really save the stones?" discusses the question. That thread with no certain answer yes or no, one may say.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-31 03:11 by Witness.
Yes i think it is a myth that Ronnie saved the band and kept them together in the 80's, the guy was barely capable of saving himself.
I'm sure Ronnie likes to think he was instrumental in getting Mick and Keith together after WW3 but we know the facts now, when Keith was on tour with the Wino's, Mick rang Keith and wanted to make a new album and tour with Keith, Keith's reply in his own words were , "What are you trying to do ? screw me up ?"
I think at this point with Keith on tour getting rave reviews promoting Talk Is Cheap, Mick panicked and maybe he thought he would lose Keith for good, so wanted to get the Stones back on track. Keith going solo and being successful got Mick and Keith together, i don't see where Ronnie came into it. Drunk Stoned Ronnie was probably one of the reasons Mick wanted to go solo, drunks are unreliable and you could see in back stage footage of the 82' tour that Mick was getting frustrated with Ronnie.
Having one guitarist like Keith with his drinking etc was one concern to Mick, but with Ronnie out of it and Charlie too, it's of no surprise that Mick wanted to bail out in the 80's.
Ok going solo backfired terribly on Mick, and in a way, paradoxically, it did Keith a lot of good, we got some very good straight performances from Keith when the Stones got back together for the 89' 90' tour, but unfortunately Ronnie was still be carried along by Keith. Charlie bless him got over his demons and the rest is history.
So really what we are saying is that Taylor not only got the very best out of Keith on Exile ( although to be fair i think Exile is predominately down to Keith ) but Taylor also got the very best out of Mick Jagger too on Goat Head Soup and IORR
The way i see it, after a few years of Ronnie replacing Taylor we witnessed a steady collapse of the Stones, i mean they fell to pieces didn't they, and never fully recovered as far as i'm concerned, Taylor leaving effected live performances too, not initially but as Wood went down hill he dragged the band with him imho.
I find it hard to go along with the heard on iorr when it comes to Wood, for large parts of live gigs throughout almost three decades it was like the Stones were playing with a man down, and this must have effected Keith's playing too, when you are covering for someone you are not progressing yourself because you are giving all your energy to just keeping things from collapse.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-31 17:11 by keithsman.
I don't think you were wrong. I was just trying to highlight the complexity of it all. Like most people, the answers are rarely cut and dried. It's a bit like when a relationship ends. People can talk about how unhappy they were and how their partner was horrible, but that's just the part that wasn't working. There's still the part that made it last as long as it did.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 29, 2018 20:14
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]
Ritchie Blackmore - favorite blues players - Mick Taylor on list
What do you think of Stevie Ray Vaughan?
I knew that question was coming. His death was very tragic, but I'm surprised everybody thinks he was such a brilliant player when there are people like Buddy Guy, Albert Collins, Peter Green and Mick Taylor; Johnny Winter, who is one of the best blues players in the world, is also very underrated. His vibrato is incredible. Stevie Ray Vaughan was very intense. Maybe that's what caught everybody's attention. As a player, he did
Full interview below
[www.guitarworld.com]
Ritchie Blackmore - favorite blues players - Mick Taylor on list
What do you think of Stevie Ray Vaughan?
I knew that question was coming. His death was very tragic, but I'm surprised everybody thinks he was such a brilliant player when there are people like Buddy Guy, Albert Collins, Peter Green and Mick Taylor; Johnny Winter, who is one of the best blues players in the world, is also very underrated. His vibrato is incredible. Stevie Ray Vaughan was very intense. Maybe that's what caught everybody's attention. As a player, he did
Full interview below
[www.guitarworld.com]
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
angee
()
Date: December 29, 2018 20:26
OpenG, did you have more to say?
I love Stevie Ray, so sad I was not more aware of him before his death.
Have you considered his songwriting, and his singing, along with his playing?
~"Love is Strong"~
I love Stevie Ray, so sad I was not more aware of him before his death.
Have you considered his songwriting, and his singing, along with his playing?
~"Love is Strong"~
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 29, 2018 21:01
Nothing more - always interesting to learn what Mick Taylor's peers thought of his playing - I remember Jimmy Page saying Mick Taylor was the luckiest guy on the face of the earth to get into the stones - It was his stint with John Mayall that got him the recommendation from John to join stones when Jagger phoned him.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: December 29, 2018 21:05
I saw Stevie Ray Vaughan several times back in the day, and he was definitely intense live, but I always liked Johnny Winter better. And while I agree with Blackmore for the most part, to say "as a player, he (SRV) didn't do anything amazing" seems a bit harsh. Stevie did seem to rely too much on what was already there from alot of the greats (including Hendrix) vs. coming up with something truly original, but it was mesmerizing to see him play live. Very tragic what happened to him though, just after he cleaned up his life....
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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: OT - Peter Karp and Mick Taylor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 29, 2018 22:23
Quote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchman
"Get over it". Mick Taylor.
I cant
As much as i love Ronnie, Taylor is so much better, all the best Stones music recorded and live happened when Mick was in the band.
I agree with you. Still Taylor left the band just like that, and prior to that they had to deal with Brian Jones who was out of order. Then a yes-man / showman like Ron Wood became the Stones's logical choice. Safety first.
Yes Ronnie should go down in history as the mother of yes men, even with £80 million in the bank and at 71 years of age he still keeps saying yes.
Pity actually because the last thing in the world Mick & Keith could use is a yes man, same goes for Don another yes man, useless to them.
I have to say that I am not so happy about this "yes man"-stuff.
Besides, like what Palace Revolution 2000 indicates, and in accordance with sayings on this site, it seems that Ronnie Wood was instrumental in preventing the rift between Mick and Keith from developing into an incurable and full scale breakdown of the Stones before 1989.
And, paradoxially, that is the irony of it, with the arrival of punk and "new wave" in the later '70s, somehow Ronnie Wood also appeared as a more adequate guitarist in the Stones than Mick Taylor probably would have done at that particular time.
Re: OT - Peter Karp and Mick Taylor
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: December 29, 2018 23:15
Quote
WitnessQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchman
"Get over it". Mick Taylor.
I cant
As much as i love Ronnie, Taylor is so much better, all the best Stones music recorded and live happened when Mick was in the band.
I agree with you. Still Taylor left the band just like that, and prior to that they had to deal with Brian Jones who was out of order. Then a yes-man / showman like Ron Wood became the Stones's logical choice. Safety first.
Yes Ronnie should go down in history as the mother of yes men, even with £80 million in the bank and at 71 years of age he still keeps saying yes.
Pity actually because the last thing in the world Mick & Keith could use is a yes man, same goes for Don another yes man, useless to them.
I have to say that I am not so happy about this "yes man"-stuff.
Besides, like what Palace Revolution 2000 indicates, and in accordance with sayings on this site, it seems that Ronnie Wood was instrumental in preventing the rift between Mick and Keith from developing into an incurable and full scale breakdown of the Stones before 1989.
And, paradoxially, that is the irony of it, with the arrival of punk and "new wave" in the later '70s, somehow Ronnie Wood also appeared as a more adequate guitarist in the Stones than Mick Taylor probably would have done at that particular time.
Re Ron Wood as a "yes-man": I think that Jagger and Richards could speak perfectly well for themselves.
Re Mick Taylor not suitable for the punk and new wave era: Listen to the Kemper Arena '81: Taylors musical contribution (unrehearsed) is as significant as Ron Wood's rehearsed contribution. This more or less proves that Taylor would have fit in perfectly well had he stayed with the Stones.
Re: OT - Peter Karp and Mick Taylor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 30, 2018 00:41
Quote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
WitnessQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchman
"Get over it". Mick Taylor.
I cant
As much as i love Ronnie, Taylor is so much better, all the best Stones music recorded and live happened when Mick was in the band.
I agree with you. Still Taylor left the band just like that, and prior to that they had to deal with Brian Jones who was out of order. Then a yes-man / showman like Ron Wood became the Stones's logical choice. Safety first.
Yes Ronnie should go down in history as the mother of yes men, even with £80 million in the bank and at 71 years of age he still keeps saying yes.
Pity actually because the last thing in the world Mick & Keith could use is a yes man, same goes for Don another yes man, useless to them.
I have to say that I am not so happy about this "yes man"-stuff.
Besides, like what Palace Revolution 2000 indicates, and in accordance with sayings on this site, it seems that Ronnie Wood was instrumental in preventing the rift between Mick and Keith from developing into an incurable and full scale breakdown of the Stones before 1989.
And, paradoxially, that is the irony of it, with the arrival of punk and "new wave" in the later '70s, somehow Ronnie Wood also appeared as a more adequate guitarist in the Stones than Mick Taylor probably would have done at that particular time.
Re Ron Wood as a "yes-man": I think that Jagger and Richards could speak perfectly well for themselves.
Re Mick Taylor not suitable for the punk and new wave era: Listen to the Kemper Arena '81: Taylors musical contribution (unrehearsed) is as significant as Ron Wood's rehearsed contribution. This more or less proves that Taylor would have fit in perfectly well had he stayed with the Stones.
I have got to admit that my point of view with reference to the Stones in a new wave context was nothing more than a supposition. I had no real basis for it. I have never heard anything from that Kemper Arena concert. I had even forgotten that I have read at least parts of a thread about it.
From that thread I now get the impression that Mick Taylor more or less was able to adapt to a changed Rolling Stones.
What I may wonder about is a question though. If it was not about adapting himself to a changed Stones, but instead Mick Taylor in a, by hypothesis, continued membership in the band, would his guitar playing have developed in that direction? That, and not his adaptability to a given guitar style, would really have been the proof of the pudding. To that question, however, I have myself no basis for an answer.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 30, 2018 00:50
The 81 show proved that the 3 guitar could work and MT not stepping all over RW I love what MT added to beast of Burden.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 30, 2018 01:12
Quote
OpenG
The 81 show proved that the 3 guitar could work and MT not stepping all over RW I love what MT added to beast of Burden.
That is an impression that makes me wonder once again: Could Mick Taylor also have contributed to be a solution to unspecified problems during the ongoing studio work?
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: December 30, 2018 13:41
Quote
WitnessQuote
OpenG
The 81 show proved that the 3 guitar could work and MT not stepping all over RW I love what MT added to beast of Burden.
That is an impression that makes me wonder once again: Could Mick Taylor also have contributed to be a solution to unspecified problems during the ongoing studio work?
Good one. Almost everything the Rolling Stones have played in the guitar department through the years has been rooted in blues and rock, no matter what style the Stones
wanted to express, be it rock, hardrock, blues, pop, reggae, funky, punky, country, psychedelic/ experimental etc.. There are only a few examples of all these styles (except blues and Rock of course) coming from Taylor after he left the Stones, but pure musically I think he could have done it. Whether Mick Taylor would have been an easy partner to cooperate with as a Rolling Stone in the studio because the Stones wanted to get along with 'the music market of the day' is a question we will never be able to answer, but..likely not. He was no "yes-man"; probably wanted to put his own musical stamp, much to the disagreement of Jagger and Richards.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 14:17 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: OT - Peter Karp and Mick Taylor
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 30, 2018 13:50
Quote
WitnessQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchman
"Get over it". Mick Taylor.
I cant
As much as i love Ronnie, Taylor is so much better, all the best Stones music recorded and live happened when Mick was in the band.
I agree with you. Still Taylor left the band just like that, and prior to that they had to deal with Brian Jones who was out of order. Then a yes-man / showman like Ron Wood became the Stones's logical choice. Safety first.
Yes Ronnie should go down in history as the mother of yes men, even with £80 million in the bank and at 71 years of age he still keeps saying yes.
Pity actually because the last thing in the world Mick & Keith could use is a yes man, same goes for Don another yes man, useless to them.
I have to say that I am not so happy about this "yes man"-stuff.
Besides, like what Palace Revolution 2000 indicates, and in accordance with sayings on this site, it seems that Ronnie Wood was instrumental in preventing the rift between Mick and Keith from developing into an incurable and full scale breakdown of the Stones before 1989.
And, paradoxially, that is the irony of it, with the arrival of punk and "new wave" in the later '70s, somehow Ronnie Wood also appeared as a more adequate guitarist in the Stones than Mick Taylor probably would have done at that particular time.
I don't follow this line of talk that Ronnie is the go between that keeps the band together, Mick will do what Mick will do to make the big bucks, Keith will toe the line with Mick to keep the band together, Ronnie doesn't come into it, Mick and Keith usually write the bulk of material pre studio or in the studio before Ronnie gets involved, the songs are written.
As for touring, Mick and Keith spend a fraction of time together, Mick and Keith will do what they have to do to continue as the Stones, a little thing like hating each others guts isn't going to get in the way.
As for Ronnie being suited to the punk era, are you seriously telling me that Ronnie's influence on Black And Blue and Some Girls is an improvement on Mick Taylor's influence on Sticky Fingers and Exile etc ??. No way, Roonie's song Hey Negrita is album filler and Some Girls are all Jagger Richards compositions.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 30, 2018 15:23
Yes I think MT contributed a lot to the stones during his time. We got songs that without his contribution would of not been completed with his collaboration with Jagger sway moonlight and others. That is the key collaboration MT and Jagger working together . Was that because Keith was missing or just musicians in a band trying to write and play. Ron Wood and Jagger never really collaborated like MT and Jagger During that era You could say Keith was always present during the RW era
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Testify
()
Date: December 30, 2018 16:18
Having lived those years, when the Stones engaged Taylor were at the top of their careers, while Taylor's guitar technique has never been questioned, it was obvious to everyone that Taylor had nothing in common with the Stones. However, they were the top years of the Stones and with Taylor the band was not the same as the one we knew, maybe better, maybe even worse are only opinions, what is certain is that they were no longer the Stones we knew. On EOMS there were a lot of tensions within the band, Keith spent days playing with his friend Gram Parson, but Mick tried to move him away because he thought Keith had to play more with Mick Taylor. In the end no one knows exactly who played what in those confused sessions in France, many are thinking that without the knowledge of Jagger, Keith has put Gram's guitar traces splitting them as his own. Actually when I listen to EOMS I always have the impression that in some tracks there is Gram on guitar.
Taylor for his part had his work done to convince the producer with his guitar, there are a couple of interesting anecdotes, but the final result of EOMS was not taken well by Taylor, who he said cut the guitar on all the tracks. In practice, if I want to listen to Taylor, I do not listen to EOMS because it is hard for me to hear it.
Obviously this type of behavior led her to resign from the band. Wood's choice was logical, he was a respected guitarist and right-hand man by Rod S. putting his guitar on historical songs, but above all Ronnie is one of the few who became friends with both Keith and Mick bringing a balance to the band. Another important point Ronnie sounded more like Brain J ..
Taylor for his part had his work done to convince the producer with his guitar, there are a couple of interesting anecdotes, but the final result of EOMS was not taken well by Taylor, who he said cut the guitar on all the tracks. In practice, if I want to listen to Taylor, I do not listen to EOMS because it is hard for me to hear it.
Obviously this type of behavior led her to resign from the band. Wood's choice was logical, he was a respected guitarist and right-hand man by Rod S. putting his guitar on historical songs, but above all Ronnie is one of the few who became friends with both Keith and Mick bringing a balance to the band. Another important point Ronnie sounded more like Brain J ..
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: December 30, 2018 17:01
Quote
Testify
In the end no one knows exactly who played what in those confused sessions in France, many are thinking that without the knowledge of Jagger, Keith has put Gram's guitar traces splitting them as his own. Actually when I listen to EOMS I always have the impression that in some tracks there is Gram on guitar.
Acc. to Tarlé Jagger made absolutely sure Parsons never went down to the basement while he stayed at Nellcote. In other words there's not a single note played by Parsons on the 1971 EOMS master reels.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 30, 2018 18:59
MT's stay with the stones produced songs that were not Keith's idea of what the stones should sound like. We got landscapes of sound in sway, winter, moonlight, etc and he took a 3 chord songs and made it sound sublime in the studio and playing live. That's the beauty of what he added to the stones graveyard rock and roll bluesy sound.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: December 30, 2018 19:23
-
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 19:41 by TheflyingDutchman.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 19:41 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 30, 2018 19:32
All this talk of Ronnie coming along and being friends with Mick and Keith and keeping the Stones together is just BS. Ronnie was Keith's drink and drug buddy, from 75 to about 2002 he had very little in common with Mick creatively, socially or in any other way. Ok for the first few years in the band that may have been the case, but after 78' he was a very weak link to the chain, personally i can't believe he didn't get fired, maybe it was because he wasn't even a fully paid member of the band and didn't get many royalty's, so he came cheap, and Mick approves of cheap.
Mick just tolerated Ronnie's drinking and drugging because he showed up show time, Ronnie always just about managed to function, Keith has said many times he had to plead with Mick to keep him in the band over the years, Keith covered for Ronnie for decades, all this bollocks being said recently about Ronnie being the savior of the Stones has come about because he supposedly got clean 8 years ago, it's laughable really, he spent all those decades just hanging on, freeloading from the band, he was a waste of space up until about 2002 and now all this change in attitude towards him, i just don't buy it.
I'm sorry i just can't forget all those years he was crap night after night, ok he had his moments but not enough of them to inspire the band like Taylor did.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 19:38 by keithsman.
Mick just tolerated Ronnie's drinking and drugging because he showed up show time, Ronnie always just about managed to function, Keith has said many times he had to plead with Mick to keep him in the band over the years, Keith covered for Ronnie for decades, all this bollocks being said recently about Ronnie being the savior of the Stones has come about because he supposedly got clean 8 years ago, it's laughable really, he spent all those decades just hanging on, freeloading from the band, he was a waste of space up until about 2002 and now all this change in attitude towards him, i just don't buy it.
I'm sorry i just can't forget all those years he was crap night after night, ok he had his moments but not enough of them to inspire the band like Taylor did.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 19:38 by keithsman.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: December 30, 2018 19:40
Quote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
Testify
Another important point Ronnie sounded more like Brain J ..
What's the importance of that ?
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 30, 2018 20:22
Quote
OpenG
MT's stay with the stones produced songs that were not Keith's idea of what the stones should sound like. We got landscapes of sound in sway, winter, moonlight, etc and he took a 3 chord songs and made it sound sublime in the studio and playing live. That's the beauty of what he added to the stones graveyard rock and roll bluesy sound.
So Exile was not Keith's idea of what the Stones should sound like ??
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
S.T.P
()
Date: December 30, 2018 21:23
Exile was Keit's album...
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
S.T.P
()
Date: December 30, 2018 21:29
Tumblig Dice and Ventilator Blues had was great! Imo. too many (great) fillers though. Happy suffers from bad production and was played more like the excellent hit it is live on L&G.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 30, 2018 21:35
Quote
keithsman
All this talk of Ronnie coming along and being friends with Mick and Keith and keeping the Stones together is just BS. Ronnie was Keith's drink and drug buddy, from 75 to about 2002 he had very little in common with Mick creatively, socially or in any other way. Ok for the first few years in the band that may have been the case, but after 78' he was a very weak link to the chain, personally i can't believe he didn't get fired, maybe it was because he wasn't even a fully paid member of the band and didn't get many royalty's, so he came cheap, and Mick approves of cheap.
Mick just tolerated Ronnie's drinking and drugging because he showed up show time, Ronnie always just about managed to function, Keith has said many times he had to plead with Mick to keep him in the band over the years, Keith covered for Ronnie for decades, all this bollocks being said recently about Ronnie being the savior of the Stones has come about because he supposedly got clean 8 years ago, it's laughable really, he spent all those decades just hanging on, freeloading from the band, he was a waste of space up until about 2002 and now all this change in attitude towards him, i just don't buy it.
I'm sorry i just can't forget all those years he was crap night after night, ok he had his moments but not enough of them to inspire the band like Taylor did.
And yet, throughout those "dreadful" years, Mick socialized with Ronnie regularly, wrote songs with him, he helped arrange songs for Mick's solo projects (as did Charlie), he joined Mick onstage in 1992, Mick helped with Ronnie's solo projects (including helping him get solo deals), Mick encouraged him to go to rehab countless times, was supportive of his many efforts to clean up, etc. Rather expensive loyalty for a "freeloader" from someone you describe as "cheap." One would almost think they were friends and that Mick respected him as a player and songwriter.
And yes, I agree, their best work on stage or in the studio was during the Taylor years (well, and a year before he joined as well).
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-30 21:36 by Rocky Dijon.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 30, 2018 23:19
ted by: keithsman ()
Date: December 30, 2018 20:22
Quote
OpenG
MT's stay with the stones produced songs that were not Keith's idea of what the stones should sound like. We got landscapes of sound in sway, winter, moonlight, etc and he took a 3 chord songs and made it sound sublime in the studio and playing live. That's the beauty of what he added to the stones graveyard rock and roll bluesy sound.
So Exile was not Keith's idea of what the Stones should sound like ??
I just meant the songs Keith was missing in action - Those songs like winter, moonlight where MT helped Jagger get the songs done. When have the stones sounded like a piece of music like Moonlight Mile ? I know Keith said he wrote the riff - but it is the best ballad and piece of music along with Winter the stones ever produced in the studio and Keith was not really involved. I know he sings backup vocals on Winter( I think).
Happy New Year to all
Date: December 30, 2018 20:22
Quote
OpenG
MT's stay with the stones produced songs that were not Keith's idea of what the stones should sound like. We got landscapes of sound in sway, winter, moonlight, etc and he took a 3 chord songs and made it sound sublime in the studio and playing live. That's the beauty of what he added to the stones graveyard rock and roll bluesy sound.
So Exile was not Keith's idea of what the Stones should sound like ??
I just meant the songs Keith was missing in action - Those songs like winter, moonlight where MT helped Jagger get the songs done. When have the stones sounded like a piece of music like Moonlight Mile ? I know Keith said he wrote the riff - but it is the best ballad and piece of music along with Winter the stones ever produced in the studio and Keith was not really involved. I know he sings backup vocals on Winter( I think).
Happy New Year to all
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 30, 2018 23:24
Keith sings back-up on "Sway." You really shouldn't ignore EXILE. It has one of Taylor's finest moments ever on "Shine a Light." There are also plenty of examples of wonderful playing from him. "All Down the Line" and "Stop Breaking Down" are jawdropping. "Ventilator Blues" earned him a songwriting credit. He is far from absent from EXILE.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 30, 2018 23:30
ted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: December 30, 2018 23:24
Keith sings back-up on "Sway." You really shouldn't ignore EXILE. It has one of Taylor's finest moments ever on "Shine a Light." There are also plenty of examples of wonderful playing from him. "All Down the Line" and "Stop Breaking Down" are jawdropping. "Ventilator Blues" earned him a songwriting credit. He is far from absent from EXILE.
I know MT is all over Exile - just referring above to songs where Keith was not present and you get the Taylor soundscape that is sublime and not the sound of the 3 chord wonders.
Date: December 30, 2018 23:24
Keith sings back-up on "Sway." You really shouldn't ignore EXILE. It has one of Taylor's finest moments ever on "Shine a Light." There are also plenty of examples of wonderful playing from him. "All Down the Line" and "Stop Breaking Down" are jawdropping. "Ventilator Blues" earned him a songwriting credit. He is far from absent from EXILE.
I know MT is all over Exile - just referring above to songs where Keith was not present and you get the Taylor soundscape that is sublime and not the sound of the 3 chord wonders.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 31, 2018 02:29
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
keithsman
All this talk of Ronnie coming along and being friends with Mick and Keith and keeping the Stones together is just BS. Ronnie was Keith's drink and drug buddy, from 75 to about 2002 he had very little in common with Mick creatively, socially or in any other way. Ok for the first few years in the band that may have been the case, but after 78' he was a very weak link to the chain, personally i can't believe he didn't get fired, maybe it was because he wasn't even a fully paid member of the band and didn't get many royalty's, so he came cheap, and Mick approves of cheap.
Mick just tolerated Ronnie's drinking and drugging because he showed up show time, Ronnie always just about managed to function, Keith has said many times he had to plead with Mick to keep him in the band over the years, Keith covered for Ronnie for decades, all this bollocks being said recently about Ronnie being the savior of the Stones has come about because he supposedly got clean 8 years ago, it's laughable really, he spent all those decades just hanging on, freeloading from the band, he was a waste of space up until about 2002 and now all this change in attitude towards him, i just don't buy it.
I'm sorry i just can't forget all those years he was crap night after night, ok he had his moments but not enough of them to inspire the band like Taylor did.
And yet, throughout those "dreadful" years, Mick socialized with Ronnie regularly, wrote songs with him, he helped arrange songs for Mick's solo projects (as did Charlie), he joined Mick onstage in 1992, Mick helped with Ronnie's solo projects (including helping him get solo deals), Mick encouraged him to go to rehab countless times, was supportive of his many efforts to clean up, etc. Rather expensive loyalty for a "freeloader" from someone you describe as "cheap." One would almost think they were friends and that Mick respected him as a player and songwriter.
And yes, I agree, their best work on stage or in the studio was during the Taylor years (well, and a year before he joined as well).
And yet everything i mentioned in my post was a fair observation other than a few fleeting instances and occasions between 79' to 2002 of them socializing and working together without Keith.
Of course Mick encouraged him to go rehab, the money involved with those tours was colossal, i remember Mick saying during the 80's that the Stones would have trouble crossing the road let alone touring, i think Ronnie was very much the at the center of that comment, but at that time there was no way Keith would allow Mick to fire Ronnie from the band, Ronnie and Keith were tight during this time frame, as i said drink and drug buddies, Keith insisted on keeping Ronnie in the band.
Sorry Rocky for seeing things in a more cynical way than you when it comes to relationships between band members, i can see where you are coming from though, Mick has shown a lot of loyalty towards Ronnie over the years and Ronnie is doing his best to repay Mick and Keith for their patience by putting in great performances in recent years.
Re: OT - Peter Karp and Mick Taylor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 31, 2018 03:10
Quote
keithsmanQuote
WitnessQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchman
"Get over it". Mick Taylor.
I cant
As much as i love Ronnie, Taylor is so much better, all the best Stones music recorded and live happened when Mick was in the band.
I agree with you. Still Taylor left the band just like that, and prior to that they had to deal with Brian Jones who was out of order. Then a yes-man / showman like Ron Wood became the Stones's logical choice. Safety first.
Yes Ronnie should go down in history as the mother of yes men, even with £80 million in the bank and at 71 years of age he still keeps saying yes.
Pity actually because the last thing in the world Mick & Keith could use is a yes man, same goes for Don another yes man, useless to them.
I have to say that I am not so happy about this "yes man"-stuff.
Besides, like what Palace Revolution 2000 indicates, and in accordance with sayings on this site, it seems that Ronnie Wood was instrumental in preventing the rift between Mick and Keith from developing into an incurable and full scale breakdown of the Stones before 1989.
And, paradoxially, that is the irony of it, with the arrival of punk and "new wave" in the later '70s, somehow Ronnie Wood also appeared as a more adequate guitarist in the Stones than Mick Taylor probably would have done at that particular time.
I don't follow this line of talk that Ronnie is the go between that keeps the band together, Mick will do what Mick will do to make the big bucks, Keith will toe the line with Mick to keep the band together, Ronnie doesn't come into it, Mick and Keith usually write the bulk of material pre studio or in the studio before Ronnie gets involved, the songs are written.
As for touring, Mick and Keith spend a fraction of time together, Mick and Keith will do what they have to do to continue as the Stones, a little thing like hating each others guts isn't going to get in the way.
As for Ronnie being suited to the punk era, are you seriously telling me that Ronnie's influence on Black And Blue and Some Girls is an improvement on Mick Taylor's influence on Sticky Fingers and Exile etc ??. No way, Roonie's song Hey Negrita is album filler and Some Girls are all Jagger Richards compositions.
Well, I was not talking about Ronnie Wood at any time as you do, but at the moment when the Stones almost split up.
All the same, it is possible that I have fallen prey to a myth. In case, I am not the only one.
For instance, one thread with the title "did Ronnie really save the stones?" discusses the question. That thread with no certain answer yes or no, one may say.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-31 03:11 by Witness.
Re: OT - Peter Karp and Mick Taylor
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 31, 2018 16:30
Quote
WitnessQuote
keithsmanQuote
WitnessQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
keithsmanQuote
TheflyingDutchman
"Get over it". Mick Taylor.
I cant
As much as i love Ronnie, Taylor is so much better, all the best Stones music recorded and live happened when Mick was in the band.
I agree with you. Still Taylor left the band just like that, and prior to that they had to deal with Brian Jones who was out of order. Then a yes-man / showman like Ron Wood became the Stones's logical choice. Safety first.
Yes Ronnie should go down in history as the mother of yes men, even with £80 million in the bank and at 71 years of age he still keeps saying yes.
Pity actually because the last thing in the world Mick & Keith could use is a yes man, same goes for Don another yes man, useless to them.
I have to say that I am not so happy about this "yes man"-stuff.
Besides, like what Palace Revolution 2000 indicates, and in accordance with sayings on this site, it seems that Ronnie Wood was instrumental in preventing the rift between Mick and Keith from developing into an incurable and full scale breakdown of the Stones before 1989.
And, paradoxially, that is the irony of it, with the arrival of punk and "new wave" in the later '70s, somehow Ronnie Wood also appeared as a more adequate guitarist in the Stones than Mick Taylor probably would have done at that particular time.
I don't follow this line of talk that Ronnie is the go between that keeps the band together, Mick will do what Mick will do to make the big bucks, Keith will toe the line with Mick to keep the band together, Ronnie doesn't come into it, Mick and Keith usually write the bulk of material pre studio or in the studio before Ronnie gets involved, the songs are written.
As for touring, Mick and Keith spend a fraction of time together, Mick and Keith will do what they have to do to continue as the Stones, a little thing like hating each others guts isn't going to get in the way.
As for Ronnie being suited to the punk era, are you seriously telling me that Ronnie's influence on Black And Blue and Some Girls is an improvement on Mick Taylor's influence on Sticky Fingers and Exile etc ??. No way, Roonie's song Hey Negrita is album filler and Some Girls are all Jagger Richards compositions.
Well, I was not talking about Ronnie Wood at any time as you do, but at the moment when the Stones almost split up.
All the same, it is possible that I have fallen prey to a myth. In case, I am not the only one.
For instance, one thread with the title "did Ronnie really save the stones?" discusses the question. That thread with no certain answer yes or no, one may say.
Yes i think it is a myth that Ronnie saved the band and kept them together in the 80's, the guy was barely capable of saving himself.
I'm sure Ronnie likes to think he was instrumental in getting Mick and Keith together after WW3 but we know the facts now, when Keith was on tour with the Wino's, Mick rang Keith and wanted to make a new album and tour with Keith, Keith's reply in his own words were , "What are you trying to do ? screw me up ?"
I think at this point with Keith on tour getting rave reviews promoting Talk Is Cheap, Mick panicked and maybe he thought he would lose Keith for good, so wanted to get the Stones back on track. Keith going solo and being successful got Mick and Keith together, i don't see where Ronnie came into it. Drunk Stoned Ronnie was probably one of the reasons Mick wanted to go solo, drunks are unreliable and you could see in back stage footage of the 82' tour that Mick was getting frustrated with Ronnie.
Having one guitarist like Keith with his drinking etc was one concern to Mick, but with Ronnie out of it and Charlie too, it's of no surprise that Mick wanted to bail out in the 80's.
Ok going solo backfired terribly on Mick, and in a way, paradoxically, it did Keith a lot of good, we got some very good straight performances from Keith when the Stones got back together for the 89' 90' tour, but unfortunately Ronnie was still be carried along by Keith. Charlie bless him got over his demons and the rest is history.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 31, 2018 17:09
Quote
OpenG
ted by: keithsman ()
Date: December 30, 2018 20:22
Quote
OpenG
MT's stay with the stones produced songs that were not Keith's idea of what the stones should sound like. We got landscapes of sound in sway, winter, moonlight, etc and he took a 3 chord songs and made it sound sublime in the studio and playing live. That's the beauty of what he added to the stones graveyard rock and roll bluesy sound.
So Exile was not Keith's idea of what the Stones should sound like ??
I just meant the songs Keith was missing in action - Those songs like winter, moonlight where MT helped Jagger get the songs done. When have the stones sounded like a piece of music like Moonlight Mile ? I know Keith said he wrote the riff - but it is the best ballad and piece of music along with Winter the stones ever produced in the studio and Keith was not really involved. I know he sings backup vocals on Winter( I think).
Happy New Year to all
So really what we are saying is that Taylor not only got the very best out of Keith on Exile ( although to be fair i think Exile is predominately down to Keith ) but Taylor also got the very best out of Mick Jagger too on Goat Head Soup and IORR
The way i see it, after a few years of Ronnie replacing Taylor we witnessed a steady collapse of the Stones, i mean they fell to pieces didn't they, and never fully recovered as far as i'm concerned, Taylor leaving effected live performances too, not initially but as Wood went down hill he dragged the band with him imho.
I find it hard to go along with the heard on iorr when it comes to Wood, for large parts of live gigs throughout almost three decades it was like the Stones were playing with a man down, and this must have effected Keith's playing too, when you are covering for someone you are not progressing yourself because you are giving all your energy to just keeping things from collapse.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-31 17:11 by keithsman.
Re: Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now...
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 31, 2018 17:19
Quote
keithsman
Sorry Rocky for seeing things in a more cynical way than you when it comes to relationships between band members, i can see where you are coming from though, Mick has shown a lot of loyalty towards Ronnie over the years and Ronnie is doing his best to repay Mick and Keith for their patience by putting in great performances in recent years.
I don't think you were wrong. I was just trying to highlight the complexity of it all. Like most people, the answers are rarely cut and dried. It's a bit like when a relationship ends. People can talk about how unhappy they were and how their partner was horrible, but that's just the part that wasn't working. There's still the part that made it last as long as it did.
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