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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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71Tele
Played with: Self-evident.
Played well with: Not so much.

+1. Obviously they *can* play the stuff without Taylor, it just doesn't sound very good when they do. I'll give them a pass on Brown Sugar and Bitch, to which Ronnie and Keith (respectively) still play some good stuff. The rest of the songs, no.

What's wrong with WH and DF?

Nothing, except Taylor was on the records, and Taylor was better live. Same with ADTL, Happy, Rip This Joint, Brown Sugar, Bitch, Angie, and a dozen others.

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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71Tele
Played with: Self-evident.
Played well with: Not so much.

+1. Obviously they *can* play the stuff without Taylor, it just doesn't sound very good when they do. I'll give them a pass on Brown Sugar and Bitch, to which Ronnie and Keith (respectively) still play some good stuff. The rest of the songs, no.

What's wrong with WH and DF?

Nothing, except Taylor was on the records, and Taylor was better live. Same with ADTL, Happy, Rip This Joint, Brown Sugar, Bitch, Angie, and a dozen others.

We don't know that about WH, do we?

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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71Tele
Played with: Self-evident.
Played well with: Not so much.

+1. Obviously they *can* play the stuff without Taylor, it just doesn't sound very good when they do. I'll give them a pass on Brown Sugar and Bitch, to which Ronnie and Keith (respectively) still play some good stuff. The rest of the songs, no.

What's wrong with WH and DF?

Nothing, except Taylor was on the records, and Taylor was better live. Same with ADTL, Happy, Rip This Joint, Brown Sugar, Bitch, Angie, and a dozen others.

I agree Taylor was better live, I'm not entirely convinced he he still is though. But I think together with a little practice they would be better than either one alone.

peace

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Naturalust

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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71Tele
Played with: Self-evident.
Played well with: Not so much.

+1. Obviously they *can* play the stuff without Taylor, it just doesn't sound very good when they do. I'll give them a pass on Brown Sugar and Bitch, to which Ronnie and Keith (respectively) still play some good stuff. The rest of the songs, no.

What's wrong with WH and DF?

Nothing, except Taylor was on the records, and Taylor was better live. Same with ADTL, Happy, Rip This Joint, Brown Sugar, Bitch, Angie, and a dozen others.

I agree Taylor was better live, I'm not entirely convinced he he still is though. But I think together with a little practice they would be better than either one alone.

peace

Both Ronnie and Taylor have been great on DF. And it's certainly one of the songs they play best nowadays. CYHMK and Sway are the songs where Taylor is considerably better at what he does, imo. DF is a sweet little country tune that only needs a little nice lick here and there. They both do that nicely.

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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71Tele
Played with: Self-evident.
Played well with: Not so much.

+1. Obviously they *can* play the stuff without Taylor, it just doesn't sound very good when they do. I'll give them a pass on Brown Sugar and Bitch, to which Ronnie and Keith (respectively) still play some good stuff. The rest of the songs, no.

What's wrong with WH and DF?

I've never really liked Wild Horses as a live number anyway. To me it's an incredibly graceful composition in the studio but loses a lot of that grace on stage - somehow it just sounds clunky, and particularly on this last tour the tempo was all wrong (plus it's permanently associated with Gwen Stefani's guest spot in my mind now). Weirdly, I *do* love the instrumental take on it G'n'R used to do live.

As for Dead Flowers, I think it's infinitely better with Taylor. I'd argue that he basically invented that whole style of country-rock soloing with his live playing on DF and Tumbling Dice. I know a lot of people think it doesn't need super-widdly lead guitar but what he played was always melodious and appropriate, IMO. (Also, Taylor and Wood playing on it together would mean Jagger didn't have an excuse to break out his acoustic, which I always find incredibly annoying and distracting.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-13 10:42 by Stoneburst.

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Stoneburst

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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71Tele
Played with: Self-evident.
Played well with: Not so much.

+1. Obviously they *can* play the stuff without Taylor, it just doesn't sound very good when they do. I'll give them a pass on Brown Sugar and Bitch, to which Ronnie and Keith (respectively) still play some good stuff. The rest of the songs, no.

What's wrong with WH and DF?

I've never really liked Wild Horses as a live number anyway. To me it's an incredibly graceful composition in the studio but loses a lot of that grace on stage - somehow it just sounds clunky, and particularly on this last tour the tempo was all wrong (plus it's permanently associated with Gwen Stefani's guest spot in my mind now). Weirdly, I *do* love the instrumental take on it G'n'R used to do live.

As for Dead Flowers, I think it's infinitely better with Taylor. I'd argue that he basically invented that whole style of country-rock soloing with his live playing on DF and Tumbling Dice. I know a lot of people think it doesn't need super-widdly lead guitar but what he played was always melodious and appropriate, IMO. (Also, Taylor and Wood playing on it together would mean Jagger didn't have an excuse to break out his acoustic, which I always find incredibly annoying and distracting.)

I disagree about WH, and I thought they really gave us some beautiful live versions on this tour, with the dynamics of the studio version. I like the 1975 versions, too, but for different reasons.

I see what you mean about DF, and it's indeed nice on L&G - but it's taken to the extreme on the Marquee concert. It takes the country out of the tune for me.

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Naturalust

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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71Tele
Played with: Self-evident.
Played well with: Not so much.

+1. Obviously they *can* play the stuff without Taylor, it just doesn't sound very good when they do. I'll give them a pass on Brown Sugar and Bitch, to which Ronnie and Keith (respectively) still play some good stuff. The rest of the songs, no.

What's wrong with WH and DF?

Nothing, except Taylor was on the records, and Taylor was better live. Same with ADTL, Happy, Rip This Joint, Brown Sugar, Bitch, Angie, and a dozen others.

I agree Taylor was better live, I'm not entirely convinced he he still is though. But I think together with a little practice they would be better than either one alone.

peace

That is what amazed me on the last tour -it felt at times they hadn't practiced at all, like they didn't even listen to the original record for 5 minutes. Silvertrain is a dead easy song to play, with a fairly easy slide part. Well, it was a train wreck, with nobody knowing what to do. It sounded like nobody had bothered to actually listen to the track, trusing they would still remember it from 40 years ago...

Mathijs

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Mathijs
That is what amazed me on the last tour -it felt at times they hadn't practiced at all, like they didn't even listen to the original record for 5 minutes. Silvertrain is a dead easy song to play, with a fairly easy slide part. Well, it was a train wreck, with nobody knowing what to do. It sounded like nobody had bothered to actually listen to the track, trusing they would still remember it from 40 years ago...

Mathijs

IIRC, the trainwreck in question happened because they rearranged the song in order to give Ronnie a solo as well as Taylor.

I don't know if it is really serious they would do a Sticky Fingers show, but on topic:
Mick Taylor did not play on the album versions of Brown Sugar and Sister Morphine.
(Neither did Ronnie by the way).

I agree that Sticky Fingers has a couple of songs that do not translate to a live version
very well. Especially Sister Morphine and Sway both depend on the atmosphere a lot,
which is hard to duplicate on stage.
And I never understood why the sound of Keith' opening riff of Can't you hear me knocking
was never reached on stage.

Beggar's Banquet, Some Girls and Exile on Main St (not to forget Black and Blue, Now! and Aftermath)
would have a better chance to come over well on stage than Sticky Fingers, if they
would ask my advice.

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

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Stoneburst

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Mathijs
That is what amazed me on the last tour -it felt at times they hadn't practiced at all, like they didn't even listen to the original record for 5 minutes. Silvertrain is a dead easy song to play, with a fairly easy slide part. Well, it was a train wreck, with nobody knowing what to do. It sounded like nobody had bothered to actually listen to the track, trusing they would still remember it from 40 years ago...

Mathijs

IIRC, the trainwreck in question happened because they rearranged the song in order to give Ronnie a solo as well as Taylor.

No, it happened because they decided to let Chuck count it in, and to let three guitars start it at the same time. It was amateurish. You can hear they're practising it that way on the rehearsal tapes as well.

First you gotta master the song, then the solos (which neither Ronnie or Taylor did very good, imo).

The solos were arranged differently in Japan, btw, but then Taylor went for a different solo/theme than that of GHS.

That said, and apart from the start, I thought Mick Jagger did a good job on the second version from down under. He was the weakest link on the Tokyo version, imo.

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marcovandereijk
I don't know if it is really serious they would do a Sticky Fingers show, but on topic:
Mick Taylor did not play on the album versions of Brown Sugar and Sister Morphine.
(Neither did Ronnie by the way).

I agree that Sticky Fingers has a couple of songs that do not translate to a live version
very well. Especially Sister Morphine and Sway both depend on the atmosphere a lot,
which is hard to duplicate on stage.
And I never understood why the sound of Keith' opening riff of Can't you hear me knocking
was never reached on stage.

Beggar's Banquet, Some Girls and Exile on Main St (not to forget Black and Blue, Now! and Aftermath)
would have a better chance to come over well on stage than Sticky Fingers, if they
would ask my advice.

I can relate to this, but at least I thought they did good versions of both SM and MM in 97 and 99. A fuzz box would do Keith good on CYHMK. I think it's as simple as that. I don't know why he won't consider it.

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DoomandGloom
The Sticky Fingers concept seems like a dull idea for playing stadiums

We don't know yet how things are going to be done. The whole 10-songs album played at every show? In consecutive order à la "All Tomorrow's Party", the English festival that started the trend around 2002?

To ensure a nice turnaround from show to show will they play only 6-7 SF tracks per night? How? As a mini-set in the middle of the show? Will the 6-7 songs be spiced thru the setlist?
To me that's bloody exciting...

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dcba

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DoomandGloom
The Sticky Fingers concept seems like a dull idea for playing stadiums

We don't know yet how things are going to be done. The whole 10-songs album played at every show? In consecutive order à la "All Tomorrow's Party", the English festival that started the trend around 2002?

To ensure a nice turnaround from show to show will they play only 6-7 SF tracks per night? How? As a mini-set in the middle of the show? Will the 6-7 songs be spiced thru the setlist?
To me that's bloody exciting...

My guess is a "greatest hits" show in stadiums and Sticky Fingers in smaller venues.

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DandelionPowderman

My guess is a "greatest hits" show in stadiums and Sticky Fingers in smaller venues.

You're right. Like on the Licks tour the "smaller" venues will get the deeper cuts and stadiums will get a greatest hits setlist.

"Licks" tour + "Sticky Fingers" : the tour will be titled "Lick yer Sticky Fingers"!

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dcba

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DandelionPowderman

My guess is a "greatest hits" show in stadiums and Sticky Fingers in smaller venues.

You're right. Like on the Licks tour the "smaller" venues will get the deeper cuts and stadiums will get a greatest hits setlist.

"Licks" tour + "Sticky Fingers" : the tour will be titled "Lick yer Sticky Fingers"!

Or "Licky Fingers"

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DandelionPowderman

I can relate to this, but at least I thought they did good versions of both SM and MM in 97 and 99.

This is a good version of the song indeed, judged on its own. I have to agree to that.

What Jack Nitzsche brought to the album version, those hauntingly rumbling piano rolls,
will never see the light of day on stage though.

And what would be the reason the fuzz box is never used for Can't you hear me knocking?

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

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marcovandereijk

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DandelionPowderman

I can relate to this, but at least I thought they did good versions of both SM and MM in 97 and 99.

This is a good version of the song indeed, judged on its own. I have to agree to that.

What Jack Nitzsche brought to the album version, those hauntingly rumbling piano rolls,
will never see the light of day on stage though.

And what would be the reason the fuzz box is never used for Can't you hear me knocking?

Totally agree about Nitzsche!

Apart from in 1989/90 (in particular) and 1994/95 Keith has had some kind of an aversion of using much overdrive on stage. I don't know why.

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneburst

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Mathijs
That is what amazed me on the last tour -it felt at times they hadn't practiced at all, like they didn't even listen to the original record for 5 minutes. Silvertrain is a dead easy song to play, with a fairly easy slide part. Well, it was a train wreck, with nobody knowing what to do. It sounded like nobody had bothered to actually listen to the track, trusing they would still remember it from 40 years ago...

Mathijs

IIRC, the trainwreck in question happened because they rearranged the song in order to give Ronnie a solo as well as Taylor.

No, it happened because they decided to let Chuck count it in, and to let three guitars start it at the same time. It was amateurish. You can hear they're practising it that way on the rehearsal tapes as well.

First you gotta master the song, then the solos (which neither Ronnie or Taylor did very good, imo).

The solos were arranged differently in Japan, btw, but then Taylor went for a different solo/theme than that of GHS.

That said, and apart from the start, I thought Mick Jagger did a good job on the second version from down under. He was the weakest link on the Tokyo version, imo.

Well, Taylor's been playing Silver Train in open G, which is a bit of a weird choice - he's better at playing slide in standard than in open tunings, and that's what he did on the album version. Listening again, neither solo is awe-inspiring, although both a bit better than I remembered:





About the trainwreck, you're right that they completely balls up the intro and never really get back into the groove - much like with Sway, actually, which they also insist on starting with all three guitars at once. The real problems come at the end of Ronnie's solo. Jagger tries to take them into the bridge, but the others seem to think Ronnie's going to play another few bars or something. It's weird and just kind of unprofessional, underrehearsed (Jagger saw it coming, telling the audience it was 'a bit of an ask'). Taylor's solo is alright. To my ears, it's better than the Tokyo one.

The real problem with rearranging Silver Train for two guitar solos is that it tests the listener's patience. It's filler on the album - a nice shuffle groove, some cool slide work, but ultimately there's not much to it lyrically or musically. If you're going to stretch it out to five minutes you'd better play it really, really well, with Keith and Charlie killing it together, MT and Ronnie soloing their asses off and Jagger hitting all the high notes. But they didn't do that, so it ends up kind of boring.

I agree with this, Stonesburst. Totally.

Open G is a weird choice, so is the Strat, imo. The coolest thing from the original, Taylor's double string sliding - maybe he hoped to obtain that live with the open G-tuning, who knows?

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DandelionPowderman

Apart from in 1989/90 (in particular) and 1994/95 Keith has had some kind of an aversion of using much overdrive on stage. I don't know why.

Does it have to do with the fact that Keef bought an antique Fender Twin amp which (iirc) became his #1 amp onstage?
I remember Keef saying (in 97?) that a Fender amp + a Fender guitar = THE thing. That thing doesn't allow for giant amounts of distortion.

He had the Twin in 1990 already, and used a lot of wonderful distortion on Satisfaction in 94/95. But yeah it is way "Fender-cleaner" than the Boogie

IMO, Keith's tone on the last tour was much better when he was playing his Juniors on Rambler, Bitch, Satisfaction etc than with his Telecasters. He clearly prefers P90s for songs where he plays solos, and I can understand why - he sounds far clearer and more aggressive. A good P90 into a cranked tweed is a glorious, glorious thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-13 18:13 by Stoneburst.

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marcovandereijk

Mick Taylor did not play on the album versions of Brown Sugar

I think Taylor probably did play on the original Muscle Shoals recording. Jimmy Johnson talks about him playing a strat. I just can't imagine him sitting around and not contributing to this obviously guitar based rock and roll song. He might have even contributed to its development more than we know.

It's possible that Keith just replaced all his parts and/or he is so low in the final mix that they decided not to credit him at all. Anybody ever hear Taylor talk about this?

peace

Personnel/Band Members and Musicians on: ROLLING STONES - Sticky Fingers CBS NL

Band-members, Musicians and Performers
Mick Jagger – lead vocals, acoustic guitar on "Dead Flowers", electric guitar on "Sway", percussion
Keith Richards – electric guitar, six and twelve string acoustic guitar, backing vocals
Mick Taylor – electric, acoustic and slide guitar (not present during "Sister Morphine" sessions)
Charlie Watts – drums
Bill Wyman – bass guitar, electric piano on "You Gotta Move"
Bobby Keys – saxophone
Ian Stewart – piano on "Brown Sugar" and "Dead Flowers"
Nicky Hopkins – piano on "Sway"
Jim Dickinson – piano on "Wild Horses"
Billy Preston – organ on "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" and "I Got the Blues"
Rocky Dijon – congas on "Can't You Hear Me Knocking"
Ry Cooder – slide guitar on "Sister Morphine"
Jack Nitzsche – piano on "Sister Morphine"
Jim Price – trumpet, piano on "Moonlight Mile"
Paul Buckmaster – string arrangement on "Sway" and "Moonlight Mile"
Jimmy Miller – percussion
Pete Townshend – backing vocals on "Sway"
Ronnie Lane – backing vocals on "Sway"
Billy Nicholls – backing vocals on "Sway"

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Naturalust

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marcovandereijk

Mick Taylor did not play on the album versions of Brown Sugar

I think Taylor probably did play on the original Muscle Shoals recording. Jimmy Johnson talks about him playing a strat. I just can't imagine him sitting around and not contributing to this obviously guitar based rock and roll song. He might have even contributed to its development more than we know.

It's possible that Keith just replaced all his parts and/or he is so low in the final mix that they decided not to credit him at all. Anybody ever hear Taylor talk about this?

peace

He played, as we've heard on earlier versions, but his track didn't make the final mix.

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Naturalust

I think Taylor probably did play on the original Muscle Shoals recording. Jimmy Johnson talks about him playing a Strat. I just can't imagine him sitting around and not contributing to this obviously guitar based rock and roll song. He might have even contributed to its development more than we know.

It's possible that Keith just replaced all his parts and/or he is so low in the final mix that they decided not to credit him at all. Anybody ever hear Taylor talk about this?

peace

Where is the notion that he is not on Brown Sugar coming from ?

He was at Muscle Shoals and played on all 3 songs they worked on there. Which he has spoken about in interviews.
Even Keith says that Taylor is on Brown Sugar.
The credits of Sticky Fingers say: 'M. Taylor - guitar'

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Chacal

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Naturalust

I think Taylor probably did play on the original Muscle Shoals recording. Jimmy Johnson talks about him playing a Strat. I just can't imagine him sitting around and not contributing to this obviously guitar based rock and roll song. He might have even contributed to its development more than we know.

It's possible that Keith just replaced all his parts and/or he is so low in the final mix that they decided not to credit him at all. Anybody ever hear Taylor talk about this?

peace

Where is the notion that he is not on Brown Sugar coming from ?

He was at Muscle Shoals and played on all 3 songs they worked on there. Which he has spoken about in interviews.
Even Keith says that Taylor is on Brown Sugar.
The credits of Sticky Fingers say: 'M. Taylor - guitar'

Would you be so kind to point out his guitar track on the studio version?

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DandelionPowderman

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Chacal

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Naturalust

I think Taylor probably did play on the original Muscle Shoals recording. Jimmy Johnson talks about him playing a Strat. I just can't imagine him sitting around and not contributing to this obviously guitar based rock and roll song. He might have even contributed to its development more than we know.

It's possible that Keith just replaced all his parts and/or he is so low in the final mix that they decided not to credit him at all. Anybody ever hear Taylor talk about this?

peace

Where is the notion that he is not on Brown Sugar coming from ?

He was at Muscle Shoals and played on all 3 songs they worked on there. Which he has spoken about in interviews.
Even Keith says that Taylor is on Brown Sugar.
The credits of Sticky Fingers say: 'M. Taylor - guitar'

Would you be so kind to point out his guitar track on the studio version?

There are many sources which don't credit Mick Taylor on this tune. Our own Track Talk, TimeisOnOurSide and others. I'd like to hear the interviews you are talking about and your source for Keith talking about Taylor playing on it too. Besides the credits of Sticky Fingers aren't the credits of Brown Sugar specifically.

Mathijs posted that Taylor is on there but low in the mix and I suspect he's either buried real low or completely replaced by Keith. I'm just a bit shocked he isn't credited as a player on this one since if he was playing while they tracked it, his feel is bound to be translated to the final product, whether his track was replaced or not.

peace

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Stoneburst
As for Dead Flowers, I think it's infinitely better with Taylor. I'd argue that he basically invented that whole style of country-rock soloing with his live playing on DF and Tumbling Dice.

I'm glad someone has the extensive knowledge necessary to point this out. Clarence White, James Burton, Reggie Young and Albert Lee (to name the biggest offenders) have had ample opportunity over their repective careers to credit the the man who "basically invented that whole style of country-rock soloing". But have they? No. It seems the aforementioned, much like Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, are content with allowing Mick Taylor to go unrecognized, despite the latter's "live playing on Dead Flowers and Tumbling Dice.

'I took Sleepy John Estes for everything I could get' Ry Cooder



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-13 21:03 by TonyMo.

Taylor was most certainly on the basic tracking of Brown Sugar as that is how things were done back then. The Sticky Fingers sessions were much more conventional than the Exile sessions, where different line-ups were present at any given time. That being said, I can't hear anything that sounds like Taylor specifically in the final mix.