Tell Me :
Talk
I understand your viewpoint, Tele. However, it is telling that Jagger and others would probably choose not to use it today. Times change, and as civilised society embraces integration to its fullest , I guess one becomes a little more aware and mindful to walk in the others persons shoes.
That's showbiz for ya. It doesn't solve the problem of prejudice in general society.
Totally agree with that.
I've read more about controversies around Brown Sugar and Some Girls (the song), than about
Sweet Black Angel. But I did not read everything of course.
Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away
That's right, and let's not forget it.
I recall some people being irked at Ms Davis being regarded as a "pin-up girl"
If memory serves, in the book of photos that came with the deluxe version of the Exile re-release
there was a photo of some Stones rehearsing under a very similar poster. Maybe someone who has the book
could locate, scan and post the shot for us?
It didn't stop some people being irked over Ms Davis being referred to as a pin-up girl, though.
LoFL - thank you kindly, Marco honey!
And extra thank yous for posting both pages. :E
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-15 16:58 by with sssoul.
I couldn't resist sending you the nekkid toes as well!
Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away
Yes it is Silver!
Nellcote indeed, by Dominique Tarle
But if blacks don't like the use of the word by whites, isn't that part of the behaviour that your citing?
I'm just asking...seems like we're on the edge a bit.
yep-I think that's Angela Davis photo sticked on the wall of the basements in Nellcote, from which I deduce that there were SBA rehearsals as well at Nellcote,
another source quotes Nellcote.
charlie hebdo
Would people moan if the artist was black and it was done today? Probably wouldn't bat an eye. In fact, they don't. Because it happens every day. "Oh they're saying it to each other so it's OK". Uh huh. Because of the context.
If the artist was white, well, one would think it's the end of society (of course, if it was a world-wide popular artist). No one here seems to be shouting about all the rap songs that say that in its variations yet alone anything else. So what makes this song so special in that regard? Certainly context is important, and the context of the lyrics seems to be of that pointing the finger 4 pointing back at you regarding the ten little niggers line... they are viewed as ten little niggers... for the context of what's happening to them by whom in the lyric, who sees them as vermin etc, but the lyric goes on and brings out that they are PEOPLE regardless.
Perhaps that is the point. Clearly it can be perceived that way. It just was.
I've only read about Sweet Black Angel here (maybe no one in the press etc was able to understand the words?). The history of Brown Sugar and Some Girls is all I've ever heard about regarding the media, stories, etc.
Similar, in a way, to how Sweet Neo Con got a bit of attention yet no one noticed Dangerous Beauty, a much more serious subject. Sweet Neo Con was specific and I guess more "across the board" so therefor more approachable? I dunno. It never makes sense to me.
That's not the demo version, that's the LP version before it had vocals.
get while the getting's good...it may be awhile before we see him again!
Yes, that's why I asked someone to post that photo, and the good Marco obliged.
I do enjoy going around in circles :E
You've got a bit of spinach in your teeth sssoul.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: January 14, 2015 09:21
Quote
71TeleQuote
Big Al
It's a vile word with nasty connotations, regardless of the context in which it is used. Some black folk who emerse themselves in hip-hop culture may use it as an endearing term, but the majority do not. It's ugly all the same.
It's an ugly word, but art is there to provoke as well as entertain (remember when the Rolling Stones provoked people?). And, as has been said, context is everything.
I understand your viewpoint, Tele. However, it is telling that Jagger and others would probably choose not to use it today. Times change, and as civilised society embraces integration to its fullest , I guess one becomes a little more aware and mindful to walk in the others persons shoes.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: January 14, 2015 09:36
Quote
Maindefender
Who we kiddin, the Stones were so intertwined with African American artists by 1972 that they more than likely called each other the N word without prejudice. They didn't see black and white, that barrier was broken by the mid 60's for them.
That's showbiz for ya. It doesn't solve the problem of prejudice in general society.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: January 14, 2015 09:37
Quote
with sssoulQuote
Silver Dagger
... "She countin' up DE minutes, she countin' up DE days". Kinda detracts from the above argument.
Au contraire, it's part of what supports the whole point.
But never mind - you and I plainly perceive all this very differently.Quote
Silver Dagger
These days you'd get into trouble for that. But hey, yeah, let's celebrate this wonderful piece of music.
And these days are further from 1972 than 1972 was from 1939.
But yes please: let's say hallelujah (with or without cod accents) for the gorgeous music.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
resotele
()
Date: January 14, 2015 10:25
Sweet Black Angel is a wonderful song. When it came out I was 18, in love with Revolution, in love with music, in love with the Stones, and, thanks to the song, I fell in love with Angela Davies...
I think that context and different times must be taken into consideration re the N-word. That's why Dylan could also rhyme "to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger, noone doubted that he pulled the trigger ..." (Hurricane). Both the Stones and Dylan use the N-word to describe the racist and humilating perspective of some people involved in "cases". Dylan and the Stones underline with the use of the word that they take the side of the anti-racist, that they stand up against discrimination.
resotele
I think that context and different times must be taken into consideration re the N-word. That's why Dylan could also rhyme "to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger, noone doubted that he pulled the trigger ..." (Hurricane). Both the Stones and Dylan use the N-word to describe the racist and humilating perspective of some people involved in "cases". Dylan and the Stones underline with the use of the word that they take the side of the anti-racist, that they stand up against discrimination.
resotele
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 14, 2015 10:52
Quote
resotele
Sweet Black Angel is a wonderful song. When it came out I was 18, in love with Revolution, in love with music, in love with the Stones, and, thanks to the song, I fell in love with Angela Davies...
I think that context and different times must be taken into consideration re the N-word. That's why Dylan could also rhyme "to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger, noone doubted that he pulled the trigger ..." (Hurricane). Both the Stones and Dylan use the N-word to describe the racist and humilating perspective of some people involved in "cases". Dylan and the Stones underline with the use of the word that they take the side of the anti-racist, that they stand up against discrimination.
resotele
Totally agree with that.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 14, 2015 10:57
Of those three biggest 60's heroes, probably Jagger's way of use the n-word is the most ambigious one, as we can, for example, see in the comments here. Dylan in "Hurricane" uses it by referring to its use within a black community - reminding, for example, the use of the word in today's rap lyrics, which somehow is seen alright. Lennon in "Woman Is the Nigger of the World" uses it as a strong metaphor, emphasizing the feminist cause.
Anyway, to use that word in a song dedicated to a strong black liberation activist, Jagger is really playing with fire, and I can't see as anything else than pointing out the prevailing prejudices. A shock value, provocation... you name it. Anyway, was there any public discussion, complaints, etc. of it at the time? I haven't heard of any. Probably giving such strong moral support to such 'terrorist' was enough, a cool thing in the eyes of many, but I am sure people like Nixon were not too happy...
- Doxa
Anyway, to use that word in a song dedicated to a strong black liberation activist, Jagger is really playing with fire, and I can't see as anything else than pointing out the prevailing prejudices. A shock value, provocation... you name it. Anyway, was there any public discussion, complaints, etc. of it at the time? I haven't heard of any. Probably giving such strong moral support to such 'terrorist' was enough, a cool thing in the eyes of many, but I am sure people like Nixon were not too happy...
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
marcovandereijk
()
Date: January 14, 2015 11:46
Quote
Doxa
Anyway, was there any public discussion, complaints, etc. of it at the time? I haven't heard of any.
I've read more about controversies around Brown Sugar and Some Girls (the song), than about
Sweet Black Angel. But I did not read everything of course.
Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
Maindefender
()
Date: January 14, 2015 13:34
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
Maindefender
Who we kiddin, the Stones were so intertwined with African American artists by 1972 that they more than likely called each other the N word without prejudice. They didn't see black and white, that barrier was broken by the mid 60's for them.
That's showbiz for ya. It doesn't solve the problem of prejudice in general society.
That's right, and let's not forget it.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: January 14, 2015 13:53
Quote
marcovandereijkQuote
Doxa
Anyway, was there any public discussion, complaints, etc. of it at the time? I haven't heard of any.
I've read more about controversies around Brown Sugar and Some Girls (the song), than about
Sweet Black Angel. But I did not read everything of course.
I recall some people being irked at Ms Davis being regarded as a "pin-up girl"
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 15, 2015 10:39
Quote
whitem8
You know the whole thing on the word nigger... and whether or not Sweet Black Angel could be made today. Of course it could. And the word itself needs to be taken in context. Within this song it is a political statement and a piece of music which ads to the art. The best art is art that challenges, makes you think, and sometimes makes you a bit uncomfortable. This song could be made today, and some people would moan and groan, mostly out of a need for power, media limelight, and self-aggrandisement.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: January 15, 2015 11:34
Quote
Silver Dagger
If memory serves, in the book of photos that came with the deluxe version of the Exile re-release
there was a photo of some Stones rehearsing under a very similar poster. Maybe someone who has the book
could locate, scan and post the shot for us?
It didn't stop some people being irked over Ms Davis being referred to as a pin-up girl, though.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
marcovandereijk
()
Date: January 15, 2015 13:58
Here's the pin up (large enough?):
Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away
Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: January 15, 2015 16:57
Quote
marcovandereijk
Here's the pin up (large enough?):
LoFL - thank you kindly, Marco honey!
And extra thank yous for posting both pages. :E
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-15 16:58 by with sssoul.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
marcovandereijk
()
Date: January 15, 2015 17:16
Quote
with sssoul
And extra thank yous for posting both pages. :E
I couldn't resist sending you the nekkid toes as well!
Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
runaway
()
Date: January 15, 2015 17:47
a Caribbean bite from the tasty Exile
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
runaway
()
Date: January 15, 2015 18:08
"marcovandereijk" great pin up photo
Nellcote?
Nellcote?
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 15, 2015 19:02
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
kleermakerQuote
Silver DaggerQuote
DandelionPowderman
Great write-up, Mike!
But they have played it live. Here's the 1972-version:
Wow - didn't know that. I'll add that version to my alternate Exile On Main Street compilation of alt versions or songs played live as near to the launch of Exile as possible.
First check kleermaker1000's YT-channel before stating anything loudly concerning the live Stones during the Taylor-era!
Is that the same famous kleermaker who gets videos posted by the Stones themselves on their website by any chance?? ><
Yes it is Silver!
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: January 15, 2015 19:17
Too bad they didn't use the Demo version, where Bill and Taylor are also audible. The official album version sounds a bit ... thin, though the song is beautiful.
I bet the live version from the 1972 tour would sound great in better audio quality.
btw: nothing wrong with the ten little niggers rhyme. Those who are verbally so political correct better protest against the way black people are treated by the largely white police force and against racist BEHAVIOUR.
I bet the live version from the 1972 tour would sound great in better audio quality.
btw: nothing wrong with the ten little niggers rhyme. Those who are verbally so political correct better protest against the way black people are treated by the largely white police force and against racist BEHAVIOUR.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: January 15, 2015 19:31
Quote
runaway
"marcovandereijk" great pin up photo
Nellcote?
Nellcote indeed, by Dominique Tarle
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: January 15, 2015 19:33
Quote
kleermaker
Too bad they didn't use the Demo version, where Bill and Taylor are also audible. The official album version sounds a bit ... thin, though the song is beautiful.
I bet the live version from the 1972 tour would sound great in better audio quality.
btw: nothing wrong with the ten little niggers rhyme. Those who are verbally so political correct better protest against the way black people are treated by the largely white police force and against racist BEHAVIOUR.
But if blacks don't like the use of the word by whites, isn't that part of the behaviour that your citing?
I'm just asking...seems like we're on the edge a bit.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 15, 2015 19:44
Love the serious treacle (and I agree 100%).
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
runaway
()
Date: January 15, 2015 19:49
Quote
with sssoulQuote
runaway
"marcovandereijk" great pin up photo
Nellcote?
Nellcote indeed, by Dominique Tarle
yep-I think that's Angela Davis photo sticked on the wall of the basements in Nellcote, from which I deduce that there were SBA rehearsals as well at Nellcote,
another source quotes Nellcote.
charlie hebdo
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 15, 2015 20:22
Quote
whitem8
You know the whole thing on the word nigger... and whether or not Sweet Black Angel could be made today. Of course it could. And the word itself needs to be taken in context. Within this song it is a political statement and a piece of music which ads to the art. The best art is art that challenges, makes you think, and sometimes makes you a bit uncomfortable. This song could be made today, and some people would moan and groan, mostly out of a need for power, media limelight, and self-aggrandisement.
Would people moan if the artist was black and it was done today? Probably wouldn't bat an eye. In fact, they don't. Because it happens every day. "Oh they're saying it to each other so it's OK". Uh huh. Because of the context.
If the artist was white, well, one would think it's the end of society (of course, if it was a world-wide popular artist). No one here seems to be shouting about all the rap songs that say that in its variations yet alone anything else. So what makes this song so special in that regard? Certainly context is important, and the context of the lyrics seems to be of that pointing the finger 4 pointing back at you regarding the ten little niggers line... they are viewed as ten little niggers... for the context of what's happening to them by whom in the lyric, who sees them as vermin etc, but the lyric goes on and brings out that they are PEOPLE regardless.
Perhaps that is the point. Clearly it can be perceived that way. It just was.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 15, 2015 20:27
Quote
marcovandereijkQuote
Doxa
Anyway, was there any public discussion, complaints, etc. of it at the time? I haven't heard of any.
I've read more about controversies around Brown Sugar and Some Girls (the song), than about
Sweet Black Angel. But I did not read everything of course.
I've only read about Sweet Black Angel here (maybe no one in the press etc was able to understand the words?). The history of Brown Sugar and Some Girls is all I've ever heard about regarding the media, stories, etc.
Similar, in a way, to how Sweet Neo Con got a bit of attention yet no one noticed Dangerous Beauty, a much more serious subject. Sweet Neo Con was specific and I guess more "across the board" so therefor more approachable? I dunno. It never makes sense to me.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 15, 2015 20:33
Quote
kleermaker
Too bad they didn't use the Demo version, where Bill and Taylor are also audible. The official album version sounds a bit ... thin, though the song is beautiful.
I bet the live version from the 1972 tour would sound great in better audio quality.
btw: nothing wrong with the ten little niggers rhyme. Those who are verbally so political correct better protest against the way black people are treated by the largely white police force and against racist BEHAVIOUR.
That's not the demo version, that's the LP version before it had vocals.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
pmk251
()
Date: January 15, 2015 21:29
What am I missing here? The use of the word is not from Jagger's perspective. It's from the perspective of segments of American society that includes the legal system...they are niggers and they are getting killed. It's true today. Look at Ferguson. The irony of the Obama presidency is that it has not been a step forward for racial equality, but a step backward. The country has regressed on this and other issues.
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: January 15, 2015 21:42
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Love the serious treacle (and I agree 100%).
get while the getting's good...it may be awhile before we see him again!
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: January 15, 2015 21:59
Quote
runawayQuote
with sssoulQuote
runaway
"marcovandereijk" great pin up photo
Nellcote?
Nellcote indeed, by Dominique Tarle
yep-I think that's Angela Davis photo sticked on the wall of the basements in Nellcote
Yes, that's why I asked someone to post that photo, and the good Marco obliged.
I do enjoy going around in circles :E
Re: Track Talk: Sweet Black Angel
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: January 15, 2015 22:07
Quote
with sssoulQuote
runawayQuote
with sssoulQuote
runaway
"marcovandereijk" great pin up photo
Nellcote?
Nellcote indeed, by Dominique Tarle
yep-I think that's Angela Davis photo sticked on the wall of the basements in Nellcote
Yes, that's why I asked someone to post that photo, and the good Marco obliged.
I do enjoy going around in circles :E
You've got a bit of spinach in your teeth sssoul.
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