On RnR Circus Keith played JJF in standard tuning. When did he change to open G? Was it in 1969 already (in the park & on Ya Ya's)?

I think he was using it by the '69 tour but he originally recorded it in open D with a capo. I have never seen a photo of him with the guitar he used for that song though unless it was the black Les Paul Custom. In 'Gimme Shelter' you cna see him playing it during 'Street Fighting Man' and the the guitar is clearly in open G wit ha capo at the 4th fret which would be right for JJF.

<he originally recorded it in open D with a capo>

I thought it was open E, but there are several other guitars on the original version. Some of them in standard tuning. And this is what makes the song magic. The intro (why did they skip it??), and the tension created within the coordination of the guitars in the main riff.

well i think that mathijs knows the answers to all these questions

I am quite sure that @ Hyde Park JJF was done in open G. Was seeing the film the other day (great concert, no matter the bum notes, out of tune guitars, off tempo intro's, occasional fu*k's up): Keith was using the Flying V for (most of?) the standard tuning numbers, and a ... 336 (but, again, I am not sure) for the open G ones. For sure he was using the same guitar for HTW and JJF therefore ...



C

It's open E, that's what's on the original, tune up and play along.

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

It's hard to hear the difference between open E and open D, since it's the same tuning (key difference only), when capoes are being used. On Open D, the strings are a bit slacker, but the chord rings the same.

I've read somewhere that JJF is in open E-tuning, and that Keith changed the tuning when the stones started to play the number live (but then again, the version on R'n'R Circus is not in open G...). My bet goes for 1969.

I'm trying to remember the Flying V in Hyde Park. Did that one have a Capo on it? Was it only those two guitars he played? The 335 and the V? Doesn't he play a Les Paul at some point? Man was that a lousy sounding gig.

As far as I can remember now, Liddas is right about the guitars Keith used on the Hyde Park gig, Chelsea. If I recall correctly, those were the only two guitars he did use. Don't know really if it was a 335, a 336 or even a 330, though... About the capo, I remember seeing him (in the film) using it on Midnight Rambler and JJF. But for sure he did use it for the usuals.

[There'll be no wedding today...]

Chelsea: I'll have to go through the video once again, but the (white) Flying V was used (100% sure) (see [www.photofeaturesint.com] last line of pics). I can't remember a Les Paul. Capos on the FV? Bho!

C

Capos on the Flying V: Midnight Rambler

[There'll be no wedding today...]

He also used the Flying V for 'I'm Free' with a capo at the 7th fret. As to using open D on the original JJF, I seem to recall that's what Keith said in his 1977 Guitar Player interview. I'll check again.

I understood that it was open 'D' on the record and it does sound different to using open 'E'.

Open 'D' with a capo sounds similar to open 'E', but not the same....

Regards,

Ian.

Rolling Stones Tribute

Play Rolling Stones

for what it's worth. from [www.timeisonourside.com] :

Jumpin' Jack Flash was in open E, and there's a certain ring that you need there. And what's always fascinating about open stringing is you can get these other notes ringing sympathetically, almost like a sitar, in a way. Unexpected notes ring out, and you say, Ah, there's a constant. That one can go all the way through this thing.
- Keith Richards, 1992


(I used a) Gibson Hummingbird (acoustic) tuned to open D, six string. Open D or open E, which is the same thing - same intervals - but it would be slackened down some for D. Then there was a capo on it, to get that really tight sound. And there was another guitar over the top of that, but tuned to Nashville tuning. I learned that from somebody in George Jones' band in San Antonio in (1964)... (The high-strung guitar) was an acoustic, too. Both acoustics were put through a Phillips cassette recorder. Just jam the mic right in the guitar and play it back through an extension speaker.
- Keith Richards, 2002





"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

Bill Wyman says it was open E in Stone Alone as well. I would call that a good source.

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

The record is an open-D tuning.
It's more "swampy" sounding that an open-E tuning is.
Tune your guitar to open-D, and you'll find JJF pretty easily.
But in open-E, you'll go "it doesn't sound right."
Open-E is the Salt of the earth, Pridigal Son, Around the Plynth sound.
Now, he may have put a second guitar on in open- E.
That's always a possibility. They also could have
slowed the track down, which is possible, but not probable.
He was using open-d/open-E tuning a lot back then,
and maybe he's gotten them confused. We're talking almost 40 years now.
He also maybe putting us on. Yoo don't want to give away too many secrets.
I talk to Chuch about Ronnie's amp settings once, and it was total BS.

I'd go with open E...

I'll try both tomorrow and see what I hear Tom. What's the difference between Nashville tuning, and, open D?

"And there was another guitar over the top of that, but tuned to Nashville tuning. I learned that from somebody in George Jones' band in San Antonio in (1964)..."

If the above comment is true, that sure sheds some light on Keith's history with open tunings.

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

<(I used a) Gibson Hummingbird (acoustic) tuned to open D, six string. Open D or open E, which is the same thing - same intervals - but it would be slackened down some for D. Then there was a capo on it, to get that really tight sound. And there was another guitar over the top of that, but tuned to Nashville tuning. I learned that from somebody in George Jones' band in San Antonio in (1964)... (The high-strung guitar) was an acoustic, too. Both acoustics were put through a Phillips cassette recorder. Just jam the mic right in the guitar and play it back through an extension speaker.
- Keith Richards, 2002>

That is bullshit! Nashville-tuned guitar on JJF??? I think this is scissored from an interview where Keith talked about Wild Horses.

He is playing in open E on R&R circus, but has switched to open G by the time of the Hyde Park gig. Note, however, that in the Hyde park gig he doesn't seem to have taken off the bottom E string. By the end of 69 (Ya Ya's) he is playing 5 string open G.

Keith plays an ES-330 with capo on the fourth fret in open G for JJF in Hyde Park, standard tuning on R&R Circus, and I only hear open E on the original recording. In 1969 he played it in open G on his LP Custom. The story about the Nashville tuning is bullshit, Keith shouldn't drink when doing an interview. Note by the way that until the 1972 tour keith didn't remove the low E string when playing open G.

Mathijs

Ya, quotes from two different interviews.

I've got one of my guitars tuned open E now. Did so several weeks ago after reading what Wyman said about JJF being in open E!! Because I alway's thought there was something strange going on with the guitar stuff in the middle part of the song. Just didn't sound like 'standard' stuff to me.

I'm still going with open E, but, to make the comparison would the capo be on the third fret if it were tuned to open D? (It's 4:38am and I don't feel like dragging a guitar out right now!)

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

It is a strange remark by Keith, that tuning to open D and the putting a capo on the second fret would tighten the sound. Open D is a tuned-down tuing, while open E is tuned up. The string tension with open E is much tighter than open D, even if you add a capo on the open D tuning.

Mathijs

Jumpin' Jack Flash was in open E, and there's a certain ring that you need there. And what's always fascinating about open stringing is you can get these other notes ringing sympathetically, almost like a sitar, in a way. Unexpected notes ring out, and you say, Ah, there's a constant. That one can go all the way through this thing.

- Keith Richards, 1992

(I used a) Gibson Hummingbird (acoustic) tuned to open D, six string. Open D or open E, which is the same thing - same intervals - but it would be slackened down some for D. Then there was a capo on it, to get that really tight sound. And there was another guitar over the top of that, but tuned to Nashville tuning. I learned that from somebody in George Jones' band in San Antonio in (1964)... (The high-strung guitar) was an acoustic, too. Both acoustics were put through a Phillips cassette recorder. Just jam the mic right in the guitar and play it back through an extension speaker.

- Keith Richards, 2002

So which is it on R&R Circus? Standard or Open E?

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

Well, after bashing around with one guitar in open-D and one in open-E
and listening to the studio recording, I think he used both, as well as
one in a standard tuning. There's a lot of stuff going on there.
I think open-D (with capo on second fret) sounds best during the intro.
But after the second bar, it all seems to change and the magic of the recording really happens. They don't call it mixing for nothing. Although it seems to be in the key of B flat, is sounds slightly out of tune with standard tuning, which means it could have been slowed down (however this could have happend during the mastering process).
The Nashville tuning he talked about may have been an overdub that he discarded
(listen to The Lantern with headphones for discarded guitar tracks).

As for the first introduction of the 5-string, I always thought it was on
the British tour of 1971. I have photos of KR with the Dan Armstrong with
a capo on the 4th fret and no visable 6th string that's from (I'm pretty sure) the 1971 tour, which means open-g. Plus the photo of all the stage guitars (against a white brick wall, which seems to have been taken backstage at a gig on the 1971 tour)includes a black LP with a capo on the 4th fret and no 6th string, again suggesting an open-G. From left to right the photo goes: Dan Armstong, Fender Mustang bass,Sunburst LP, Gibson SG, brown Gibson 330 (or 335) with capo at 7th fret (tilted in photo), Gibson LP with capo at 4th fret and obviously 5 strings (look at bridge),and another Dan Armstrong with 5 strings.
This could be a Nellcote photo-op, but the background suggests a gig
[Coke cans, beer cans, etc. on the table).
There are photos of KR onstage during those tours that have him playing
a LP with a capo at the 4th fret, and those could be open-g 5-string.
However, you can play SFM in a standard tuning with a capo on the 4th fret.

What color is the SG in the photo Tom?

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

Rank: Brown Gibson SG. Can't tell of there's a vibroto in it from the photo.

<So which is it on R&R Circus? Standard or Open E?>

Standard tuning on R'n'R Circus, no Nashville-tuned guitar on the original recording.

On the intro of the original recording there might be one guitar in standard tuning, in addition to one guitar in open E tuning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-06-16 10:24 by DandelionPowderman.

I checked the interview from the 1977 Guitar Player magazine and Keith does say hes used open D tuning. Whether that is actually true is another matter...