Tell Me :
Talk
You sexist bastard Doc, just because she's a girl ............... an' I'm not !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Pete,
An excellent idea. I too am from the UK. (A Scot based near Swindon, not far from Bristol) The fact that only Glasto use it further points to collusion between primary and secondary sellers if the Primaries have failed to embrace said technology. I believe they've been using this system at Glasto for some years now so it's far from cutting edge. A far cry from queung up for tickets in the rain outside the Colston Hall....
I've just been looking on viagogo re Paris. Prices are definately falling as PW says. I reckon once they've built the stage they'll sell extra seats closer to it, once they know the exact dimensions of it. That's a frequent occurence. I've a feeling Pelouse VIP may stay stubbornly high for this one...
Until the very last minute, undoubtedly.
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
OH DEAR GOD NONE OF IT MATTERS ITS THE END TIMES , PAULYWAULY HAS CALLED ME A SEXIST BASTARD HAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHA
Have fun at all your shows you enlightened bastard...you can still get pit tickets for the second PERTH shop at cost
Eh what ???? PERTH ???? No thanks, I'll stick with Europe old sport !! Now don't go winding me up Doc, you bad lad !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest
In the land of make believe ? And as such you probably think mine is a minority view ? You're the dreamer my friend, if you don't think that today we unfortunately all have to bear witness to a phenomenon that is so riddled with malpractice, deceit, and market manipulation that it has to date spawned countless press articles and been the subject of many an investigative journalist. Four companies in particular - SEATWAVE, VIAGOGO, GETMEIN, and STUBHUB - have just within recent days been the subject of one such investigation by one the UK's better known consumer affairs type of TV program. The program even interviewed the CEO of VIAGOGO. It was pathetic, completely pathetic. The stupid little twerp did such a bad job defending his company's modus operandi and general practices that it left you the consumer thinking that a five year old child could have done a better job.
It will end up being legislated against, the momentum to impose some form of regulation or constraints on the way the market currently functions and discriminates against ANYONE that wants to go to ANY type of event is simply unstoppable. WHY ? Because these sorts of companies have simply taken it too far. And they continue to tell us the public that the service they operate is (i) for our benefit, (ii) safe, (iii) secure, and (iv) transparent.
You believe it if you like, and you support it if you like. Don't ask me to, I consider that I can see it for what it truly is ........... whereas with all due respect, I don't think you can.
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-23 09:54 by paulywaul.
Ah, yes!
I know I must sound like an irate child bleating on about a particular pet hate, sorry about that. But the reality is that there's probably a compromise out there somewhere in terms of doing something or other that results principally in two things being achieved:
Firstly - the right of people who buy tickets for an event, genuinely cannot attend themselves, and sell the tickets on - to be maintained
Secondly - the wholesale withholding of tickets by primary vendors and their deliberate direct and immediate diversion straight into the secondary re-selling marketplace be outlawed
The former is a basic human right that people enjoy today, and I am not for one moment advocating that it is withdrawn from them tomorrow or indeed at any point in the future.
The latter is a modern day phenomenon that needs to be reined in and have its excesses curbed
As I mentioned in a previous post, there IS in fact a law in the UK outlawing re-sale of soccer game tickets for anything other than face value. Judging by the sheer number of grievances lodged by disgruntled members of the public trying to attend any other form of event (be it film, theatre, exhibition, music, sport) these days - it would seem as if momentum is gradually building to extend that ruling to all other categories of event.
I for one hope it will happen sooner rather than later.
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Don't see the connection between the two I'm afraid. Flipping houses is done to avoid capital gains tax, if you're lucky enough to own two or more.
What has that got to do with the kind of dubious practices pursued by the primary ticket vendors and the secondary market resellers ?
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Only that that in the couple of intervening years since that in-depth DISPATCHES investigation the phenomenon has worsened in all probability !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest[/quote]
With respect, you are missing the main point. I too, agree that the economy should be driven by market forces, though they can't be left completely unchecked. They have to be regulated. Drug Dealing is Capitalism!!!.
What PW is stressing is the immediate diversion of tickets from Primary to Secondary Seller without Joe Public getting a sniff of a chance to buy them. That isn't capitalism - it's racketeering, tantamount to fraud, if not fraud full stop. To advertise a product at a given price, dangle it in front of the Customer, create a demand and expectation, then give them ZERO opportunity to buy at that price before it re-appears at a huge mark up elsewhere, with the disappointed customer looking on.
That, Ladies & Gents is SCANDALOUS and not a small bit CRUEL.
With respect, you are missing the main point. I too, agree that the economy should be driven by market forces, though they can't be left completely unchecked. They have to be regulated. Drug Dealing is Capitalism!!!.
What PW is stressing is the immediate diversion of tickets from Primary to Secondary Seller without Joe Public getting a sniff of a chance to buy them. That isn't capitalism - it's racketeering, tantamount to fraud, if not fraud full stop. To advertise a product at a given price, dangle it in front of the Customer, create a demand and expectation, then give them ZERO opportunity to buy at that price before it re-appears at a huge mark up elsewhere, with the disappointed customer looking on.
That, Ladies & Gents is SCANDALOUS and not a small bit CRUEL.[/quote]
Yup, that's about it !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Yup, that's about it !![/quote]
I agree. In this case, our band, The Rolling Stones are to blame as if they wanted to prevent this they could. What band could possibly yield more direct control of their ticket sales than this outfit? Absolutely nobody. One might assume that our guys have their hand in the cookie jar too! Only way to bring prices down is to reduce demand. Since the Stones are great, and not going downhill fast, they could bring prices down by finally becoming a Las Vegas act. And playing every other night for as many months as demand exists. We all know this is not going to happen. ALL I AM TRYING SO SAY IS THAT GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE ANSWER.
I agree. In this case, our band, The Rolling Stones are to blame as if they wanted to prevent this they could. What band could possibly yield more direct control of their ticket sales than this outfit? Absolutely nobody. One might assume that our guys have their hand in the cookie jar too! Only way to bring prices down is to reduce demand. Since the Stones are great, and not going downhill fast, they could bring prices down by finally becoming a Las Vegas act. And playing every other night for as many months as demand exists. We all know this is not going to happen. ALL I AM TRYING SO SAY IS THAT GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE ANSWER.[/quote]
We'll agree to disagree, I personally think that the current woeful situation is not going to improve if it's left to all the participant players to self regulate (which is actually the line the UK government is taking as it continues to ignore the issue and sit on the fence) .............. so if "self" regulation ain't gonna work ??!! Well then guess what, some other form of regulation might just shake things up ?? And that will almost take the form of a piece of legislation, and as such - driven by government !
That's my take on it !
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
That's ridiculously low. If I wasn't going to be sunning myself in Ibiza I'd go.
Personally, I'd sun myself in Rome AND get to see the Stones at the same time !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Hopin' to be doing the same.
Yep, they (the operators in the secondary market) call your bluff by trying to manipulate the market and persuade you the event is heavily in demand and therefore you should buy from them at grossly distorted prices, and you in turn should treat them with the utter contempt they deserve and not buy from them. It generally works. We're witnessing the standoff here, pit tickets (the various golden and diamond standing circles) for Zurich, Berlin, Vienna, Rome (to name but three) are all at - or even significantly below - face value on the secondary market already.
As I said in the thread title - let the mother****ers choke on it !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
grzegorz67
()
Date: May 22, 2014 19:42
Another thing I should add is that when these overpriced tickets fail to sell via the parasites, they will be re-routed back to the official channel again in the days leading up to the show - just wait and see !
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 22, 2014 20:12
Quote
kahoosier
LOL actually Paul for some reason I thought of Sara on the 4 out of 5 tickets.
And I hate the viagogo thing , but its the chicken and egg question. In an era of increasing government control and legislation, there are many who think just adding more laws is not the answer. It could be argued that if people with 4 tickets would just be satisfied, as they more or less had to be 25 years ago, and refused to deal with the secondary market, it would dry up. If you want laws preventing this, even though you MIGHT have that fifth ticket in a different world, in this world buying it from the people you complain about is just a bit contradictory, it's biting the hand that feeds you no matter the cost of the food. Legislating any commodity is legislating morality. Again, you are allowed to buy 6 PIT tickets, and you do, because you are pretty sure that you're less fortunate friends will buy them. Even if you intend to sell them at cost, to the first guy up the street that gets the "unavailable" message, for him the result is the same as when Viagogo buys 500. That guy could easily yell "foul" and start preaching that each person only be allowed to buy a ticket for himself. Or maybe one plus another for a date...well maybe a brother-in-law will want to come. To legislate, each possibility will have to be approached and argued.
I am not disagreeing with you, something needs to be done, I am just not sure that inviting even more government control into Rock and Roll , a music that found it's greatest success by advocating less control, is the answer. Perhaps its time instead we all bite the bullet, and take what we get and leave the rest. Stop buying from these people until they go away.a hooker and a john, who is the biggest criminal? How about this, let them buy the tickets if the want then prosecute the people willing to pay extra? Maybe that is the law that needs to be passed. After all, that is somewhat how drug laws work, illegal to sell or to buy? Should we prosecute people that buy from scalpers? Or since we are those people, do we forgive them? Are they innocent or part of the problem? You mentioned a $50000 ticket, if someone offered you that , would you sell your ticket? Of course you would. What if it were illegal, of course you still would.
I don't have any answers, I am just saying a rush to legislate when we ourselves at times perpetuate the activity ( but just when WE NEED IT, when forced to get what we want) may come back to bite us in the ass some day.
You sexist bastard Doc, just because she's a girl ............... an' I'm not !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
petewasbristol
()
Date: May 22, 2014 20:23
The UK (I can only speak on behalf of my country on this) should implement an ID (photo) on ticket for major events, like Glastonbury Festival does along with a deposit being paid on the tickets. Then at a certain date (like Glastonbury) the ticket has to be paid in full. Those that don't pay the rest of the ticket get to have their deposit refunded and the tickets go back on sale for a final round. The ID and the lack of actual tickets in circulation will wipe out the secondary market.Glastonbury has had no secondary tickets for sale since the ID system was introduced. The technology is there to put this into practice right now.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-22 20:25 by petewasbristol.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-22 20:25 by petewasbristol.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
grzegorz67
()
Date: May 22, 2014 20:39
Quote
petewasbristol
The UK (I can only speak on behalf of my country on this) should implement an ID (photo) on ticket for major events, like Glastonbury Festival does along with a deposit being paid on the tickets. Then at a certain date (like Glastonbury) the ticket has to be paid in full. Those that don't pay the rest of the ticket get to have their deposit refunded and the tickets go back on sale for a final round. The ID and the lack of actual tickets in circulation will wipe out the secondary market.Glastonbury has had no secondary tickets for sale since the ID system was introduced. The technology is there to put this into practice right now.
Pete,
An excellent idea. I too am from the UK. (A Scot based near Swindon, not far from Bristol) The fact that only Glasto use it further points to collusion between primary and secondary sellers if the Primaries have failed to embrace said technology. I believe they've been using this system at Glasto for some years now so it's far from cutting edge. A far cry from queung up for tickets in the rain outside the Colston Hall....
I've just been looking on viagogo re Paris. Prices are definately falling as PW says. I reckon once they've built the stage they'll sell extra seats closer to it, once they know the exact dimensions of it. That's a frequent occurence. I've a feeling Pelouse VIP may stay stubbornly high for this one...
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 22, 2014 22:04
Quote
grzegorz67Quote
petewasbristol
The UK (I can only speak on behalf of my country on this) should implement an ID (photo) on ticket for major events, like Glastonbury Festival does along with a deposit being paid on the tickets. Then at a certain date (like Glastonbury) the ticket has to be paid in full. Those that don't pay the rest of the ticket get to have their deposit refunded and the tickets go back on sale for a final round. The ID and the lack of actual tickets in circulation will wipe out the secondary market.Glastonbury has had no secondary tickets for sale since the ID system was introduced. The technology is there to put this into practice right now.
Pete,
An excellent idea. I too am from the UK. (A Scot based near Swindon, not far from Bristol) The fact that only Glasto use it further points to collusion between primary and secondary sellers if the Primaries have failed to embrace said technology. I believe they've been using this system at Glasto for some years now so it's far from cutting edge. A far cry from queung up for tickets in the rain outside the Colston Hall....
I've just been looking on viagogo re Paris. Prices are definately falling as PW says. I reckon once they've built the stage they'll sell extra seats closer to it, once they know the exact dimensions of it. That's a frequent occurence. I've a feeling Pelouse VIP may stay stubbornly high for this one ...
Until the very last minute, undoubtedly.
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: May 22, 2014 22:31
Interesting to hear the reference that there are laws dealing with the resale of football tickets. Apparently more constituents are football fans than live concert fans. I say this because, in my experience, the only time governments does much or any regulating is when there is enough call from voters or money/power to be gained by doing so.
That being said, one of the reasons I think it will be a long time coming before we see legislation on the ticket resale industry is because, in the current business model, the government PROFITS from the increased prices in the “legitimate” secondary market. I'll explain my point using absolutely made up numbers & it's easy to see how. 10,000 tickets sold at a face value of $100 with a 10% sales tax generate $100,000 in taxes to the government. Same concert, 5,000 tickets sold at face value and 5,000 sold through artificially inflated prices (let's say $150 to keep the math simple) by ticket reselling businesses would bring in $125,000 to the government in taxes. We can complain about the greedy ticket re-sellers, promoters, artists, etc. all we like but expecting a government which is benefitting from the practice to do something about it, is a pretty far-fetched dream.
I wish I had a solution as I don't care much for the current state of things either. I don't know what it will take for things to change but have a feeling that the change will end up being consumer driven as opposed to government legislated.
Addition: After reading some additional posts, it sounds like Glastonbury is doing a good job. Maybe there is hope. Kind of confirms my thoughts that the solution is more likely to be found in the market itself rather than government legislation.
Peace,
Mr DJA
That being said, one of the reasons I think it will be a long time coming before we see legislation on the ticket resale industry is because, in the current business model, the government PROFITS from the increased prices in the “legitimate” secondary market. I'll explain my point using absolutely made up numbers & it's easy to see how. 10,000 tickets sold at a face value of $100 with a 10% sales tax generate $100,000 in taxes to the government. Same concert, 5,000 tickets sold at face value and 5,000 sold through artificially inflated prices (let's say $150 to keep the math simple) by ticket reselling businesses would bring in $125,000 to the government in taxes. We can complain about the greedy ticket re-sellers, promoters, artists, etc. all we like but expecting a government which is benefitting from the practice to do something about it, is a pretty far-fetched dream.
I wish I had a solution as I don't care much for the current state of things either. I don't know what it will take for things to change but have a feeling that the change will end up being consumer driven as opposed to government legislated.
Addition: After reading some additional posts, it sounds like Glastonbury is doing a good job. Maybe there is hope. Kind of confirms my thoughts that the solution is more likely to be found in the market itself rather than government legislation.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
kahoosier
()
Date: May 23, 2014 00:39
OH DEAR GOD NONE OF IT MATTERS ITS THE END TIMES , PAULYWAULY HAS CALLED ME A SEXIST BASTARD HAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHAHave fun at all your shows you enlightened bastard...you can still get pit tickets for the second PERTH shop at cost
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 00:50
Quote
kahoosier
Have fun at all your shows you enlightened bastard...you can still get pit tickets for the second PERTH shop at cost
Eh what ???? PERTH ???? No thanks, I'll stick with Europe old sport !! Now don't go winding me up Doc, you bad lad !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 01:00
ROME pit ticket prices are falling dramatically - here's an example from VIAGOGO this evening Thursday 22 May:
The Rolling Stones
Sunday, 22 June 2014 19:00
Circus Maximus, Rome, Italy
Section: Pit Area - Standing
Number of Tickets: 1
Price/Ticket €150.00
Booking Fee €22.50
Subtotal €172.50
Estimated Total Price
£139.70 + Handling and VAT
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
The Rolling Stones
Sunday, 22 June 2014 19:00
Circus Maximus, Rome, Italy
Section: Pit Area - Standing
Number of Tickets: 1
Price/Ticket €150.00
Booking Fee €22.50
Subtotal €172.50
Estimated Total Price
£139.70 + Handling and VAT
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
HopeYouGuessMyName
()
Date: May 23, 2014 04:01
Quote
paulywaulQuote
HopeYouGuessMyNameQuote
paulywaulQuote
HopeYouGuessMyName
I despise scalpers (touts) but here is why they are also welcomed
imagine the Stones announce a concert at a venue seating 20,000 and in order to be seen as doing something wonderful for their fans, they announce the price for tickets at 10 a euros or $15.00. The semand would be off the charts. EVERYONE WOULD WANT TO GO - hardcore fans, casual fans, disinterested people looking for a night out, people who knew not even the 'warhorses' but maybe just one song, people who knew no songs but who had heard that they were a pretty good band. I think you get the idea. Even if the tickets were sold on site at the box-office, one ticket to a customer, people would line up for days early to secure a ticket. They would essentially be sold out one week before sale date with a line 20,000 long camping out in the street days before sale date. (Listen, in America we have nut jobs camping out in front of Apple stores prior to the latest release of an iPhone!). So, in my Stones scenario, anyone living too far to camp out for a week would not get tickets, anyone who had a job could not get tickets, anyone who had a family with family obligations could not get a ticket. And if the Stones did this we would welcome scalpers as the only way of getting a ticket.
Yes yes, that's all very well. I'm hardly suggesting we go back to the pre-internet age where people had to queue up outside venues. We're in the internet age now whether we like it or not, and there's no going back.
But please do not tell me that there is not a way to effectively outlaw the current practices of the primary vendors and the secondary market re-sellers with whom they're in obvious cahoots, and furthermore - to implement measures that do to a great extent ensure that the people who buy tickets for an event actually GO to that event, and that if someone other than the purchaser of a ticket turns up with it - a check is run and if the name or ID doesn't tally, the ticket is invalidated and the person refused entry. There ARE any number of mechanisms that could be very easily employed to effectively discourage if not virtually eradicate the current state of affairs, it just needs THE WILL.
I know that we are in the internet age. Ok, so the stones announce a show at an arena where only the actual buyer of the ticket is allowed to see the show. They even limit tickets to TWO PER BUYER. TICKET PRICES ARE AN ASTOUNDINGLY LOW $20.00. STONES FANS AROUND THE WORLD REJOICE. FINALLY, THE BAND IS PLAYING FOR THEIR FANS NOT FOR THEIR LOVE OF MONEY. ONE MINOR PROBLEM. 20,000 seats, demand in the millions. Buying a ticket would be like winning the lottery. Sure, if I bought a ticket at this price I'd be happy. But zillions of real fans would be left without a ticket. IN OTHER WORDS, COUNTERINTUITIVELY, HIGHER PRICES GIVE REAL FANS A CHANCE TO SEE THE BAND. scalpers allow fans a another shot if they really want to go. PRICES TOO LOW WOULD BE A REAL NIGHTMARE! Outlawing of scalping would be 'tragic' in its own way
The runaway secondary market phenomenon has got nothing to do with one little rock n' roll band called the Rolling Stones, so stop using them as an example.
Here in UK it is ILLEGAL (get me - ILLEGAL !!!) to sell a ticket for a soccer match for ANYTHING other than its face value. Unfortunately, this piece of legislation ONLY pertains to THAT particular commodity, namely a ticket for a soccer match. What unquestionably needs to happen now is that this law needs to be extended to cover every type of event, whether it be film, theatre, music, sport - whatever.
These are not items that should be bought and sold speculatively, these are items that should be given a price, one single price, and sold at that price. NOT scooped by the truckload C/O an army of companies MASQUERADING AS FAN TO FAN TICKET EXCHANGE SITES (which they are most clearly NOT) and then re-sold, making the artist NO money - but the re-seller shitloads.
I disagree with your rather "accommodating" view of this modern day phenomenon strongly. With all due respect, I think you're rather missing the point here ........
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 09:49
Quote
HopeYouGuessMyNameQuote
paulywaulQuote
HopeYouGuessMyNameQuote
paulywaulQuote
HopeYouGuessMyName
I despise scalpers (touts) but here is why they are also welcomed
imagine the Stones announce a concert at a venue seating 20,000 and in order to be seen as doing something wonderful for their fans, they announce the price for tickets at 10 a euros or $15.00. The semand would be off the charts. EVERYONE WOULD WANT TO GO - hardcore fans, casual fans, disinterested people looking for a night out, people who knew not even the 'warhorses' but maybe just one song, people who knew no songs but who had heard that they were a pretty good band. I think you get the idea. Even if the tickets were sold on site at the box-office, one ticket to a customer, people would line up for days early to secure a ticket. They would essentially be sold out one week before sale date with a line 20,000 long camping out in the street days before sale date. (Listen, in America we have nut jobs camping out in front of Apple stores prior to the latest release of an iPhone!). So, in my Stones scenario, anyone living too far to camp out for a week would not get tickets, anyone who had a job could not get tickets, anyone who had a family with family obligations could not get a ticket. And if the Stones did this we would welcome scalpers as the only way of getting a ticket.
Yes yes, that's all very well. I'm hardly suggesting we go back to the pre-internet age where people had to queue up outside venues. We're in the internet age now whether we like it or not, and there's no going back.
But please do not tell me that there is not a way to effectively outlaw the current practices of the primary vendors and the secondary market re-sellers with whom they're in obvious cahoots, and furthermore - to implement measures that do to a great extent ensure that the people who buy tickets for an event actually GO to that event, and that if someone other than the purchaser of a ticket turns up with it - a check is run and if the name or ID doesn't tally, the ticket is invalidated and the person refused entry. There ARE any number of mechanisms that could be very easily employed to effectively discourage if not virtually eradicate the current state of affairs, it just needs THE WILL.
I know that we are in the internet age. Ok, so the stones announce a show at an arena where only the actual buyer of the ticket is allowed to see the show. They even limit tickets to TWO PER BUYER. TICKET PRICES ARE AN ASTOUNDINGLY LOW $20.00. STONES FANS AROUND THE WORLD REJOICE. FINALLY, THE BAND IS PLAYING FOR THEIR FANS NOT FOR THEIR LOVE OF MONEY. ONE MINOR PROBLEM. 20,000 seats, demand in the millions. Buying a ticket would be like winning the lottery. Sure, if I bought a ticket at this price I'd be happy. But zillions of real fans would be left without a ticket. IN OTHER WORDS, COUNTERINTUITIVELY, HIGHER PRICES GIVE REAL FANS A CHANCE TO SEE THE BAND. scalpers allow fans a another shot if they really want to go. PRICES TOO LOW WOULD BE A REAL NIGHTMARE! Outlawing of scalping would be 'tragic' in its own way
The runaway secondary market phenomenon has got nothing to do with one little rock n' roll band called the Rolling Stones, so stop using them as an example.
Here in UK it is ILLEGAL (get me - ILLEGAL !!!) to sell a ticket for a soccer match for ANYTHING other than its face value. Unfortunately, this piece of legislation ONLY pertains to THAT particular commodity, namely a ticket for a soccer match. What unquestionably needs to happen now is that this law needs to be extended to cover every type of event, whether it be film, theatre, music, sport - whatever.
These are not items that should be bought and sold speculatively, these are items that should be given a price, one single price, and sold at that price. NOT scooped by the truckload C/O an army of companies MASQUERADING AS FAN TO FAN TICKET EXCHANGE SITES (which they are most clearly NOT) and then re-sold, making the artist NO money - but the re-seller shitloads.
I disagree with your rather "accommodating" view of this modern day phenomenon strongly. With all due respect, I think you're rather missing the point here ........
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest
In the land of make believe ? And as such you probably think mine is a minority view ? You're the dreamer my friend, if you don't think that today we unfortunately all have to bear witness to a phenomenon that is so riddled with malpractice, deceit, and market manipulation that it has to date spawned countless press articles and been the subject of many an investigative journalist. Four companies in particular - SEATWAVE, VIAGOGO, GETMEIN, and STUBHUB - have just within recent days been the subject of one such investigation by one the UK's better known consumer affairs type of TV program. The program even interviewed the CEO of VIAGOGO. It was pathetic, completely pathetic. The stupid little twerp did such a bad job defending his company's modus operandi and general practices that it left you the consumer thinking that a five year old child could have done a better job.
It will end up being legislated against, the momentum to impose some form of regulation or constraints on the way the market currently functions and discriminates against ANYONE that wants to go to ANY type of event is simply unstoppable. WHY ? Because these sorts of companies have simply taken it too far. And they continue to tell us the public that the service they operate is (i) for our benefit, (ii) safe, (iii) secure, and (iv) transparent.
You believe it if you like, and you support it if you like. Don't ask me to, I consider that I can see it for what it truly is ........... whereas with all due respect, I don't think you can.
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-23 09:54 by paulywaul.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 09:52
Whoops, double post
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-23 09:54 by paulywaul.
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-23 09:54 by paulywaul.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
drbryant
()
Date: May 23, 2014 10:25
Lots of talk about implementing laws to prevent resale.
I attended the Led Zeppelin reunion show at the O2 in 2007. There was a lottery for the tickets and winners were given the right to buy just 2 tickets for 125GBP each. There were reportedly 20 million applications for tickets, of which less than 15,000 were available to the general public. Organizers originally said that only winners could pick up tickets on the day of the show and would be wristbanded; and that they would monitor sites and any resold tickets would be denied entry. Hard core Zep fans who wanted to buy tickets second hand were irate - fansites organized petitions, calls were placed, letters written by lawyers, threatening to sue the organizers. Eventually, the promoter relented because I think they were genuinely concerned about the lawsuit. I didn't win the lottery, but was able to pick up a ticket for 250 GBP.
I attended the Led Zeppelin reunion show at the O2 in 2007. There was a lottery for the tickets and winners were given the right to buy just 2 tickets for 125GBP each. There were reportedly 20 million applications for tickets, of which less than 15,000 were available to the general public. Organizers originally said that only winners could pick up tickets on the day of the show and would be wristbanded; and that they would monitor sites and any resold tickets would be denied entry. Hard core Zep fans who wanted to buy tickets second hand were irate - fansites organized petitions, calls were placed, letters written by lawyers, threatening to sue the organizers. Eventually, the promoter relented because I think they were genuinely concerned about the lawsuit. I didn't win the lottery, but was able to pick up a ticket for 250 GBP.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
odean73
()
Date: May 23, 2014 10:35
I dont want the goverment ruling < i realise the goverment has to pass the law >. Just a law that will be forcibly applied if there is evidence of secondary selling.
There is no doubt that the Paris tickets immediately went to a sister subsidary for inflated prices which is just not right.
There is no doubt that the Paris tickets immediately went to a sister subsidary for inflated prices which is just not right.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
Aquamarine
()
Date: May 23, 2014 10:43
(Reply to drbryant)
With the first round of the lottery, a lot of people had entered the lottery on behalf of someone else (parents buying for kids, or vice versa, for example), and suddenly found their winning tickets, or pass-codes to buy tickets, weren't valid unless they went to the show themselves. This rule hadn't been announced in advance, hence people organizing and threatening lawsuits. Those people ultimately prevailed with regard to the first round of the lottery, but it applied to all subsequent rounds.
(I got really lucky because as tickets were sold in pairs, I got to be someone's +1, for face value.
)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-23 10:44 by Aquamarine.
With the first round of the lottery, a lot of people had entered the lottery on behalf of someone else (parents buying for kids, or vice versa, for example), and suddenly found their winning tickets, or pass-codes to buy tickets, weren't valid unless they went to the show themselves. This rule hadn't been announced in advance, hence people organizing and threatening lawsuits. Those people ultimately prevailed with regard to the first round of the lottery, but it applied to all subsequent rounds.
(I got really lucky because as tickets were sold in pairs, I got to be someone's +1, for face value.
)Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-23 10:44 by Aquamarine.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
shattered
()
Date: May 23, 2014 10:48
Quote
kahoosier
The prices below are cut and paste from Viagogo This has been standing for months as the ultimate sign of greed. The show is Mt Smart Stadium, Auckland, presumed last show of 2014. A2 is the block next to the catwalk on Ronnie's side. AND THEY DON'T EVEN LIST ROWS OR SEATS.This leaves insanity behind and approaches some sort of perversion.
A2 Floor M $1,175.00 Buy
A2 Floor $15,156.70* Buy
A2 Floor $15,156.70* Buy
A2 Floor $15,830.33* Buy
A2 Floor $16,503.97* Buy
A2 Floor $19,366.90* Buy
$20,000 for a ticket? For that I should be able to sing a duet with Lisa at least! What the hell, do you get to be dropped in by your own private helicopter?
Ah, yes!
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 11:11
Quote
drbryant
Lots of talk about implementing laws to prevent resale.
I attended the Led Zeppelin reunion show at the O2 in 2007. There was a lottery for the tickets and winners were given the right to buy just 2 tickets for 125GBP each. There were reportedly 20 million applications for tickets, of which less than 15,000 were available to the general public. Organizers originally said that only winners could pick up tickets on the day of the show and would be wristbanded; and that they would monitor sites and any resold tickets would be denied entry. Hard core Zep fans who wanted to buy tickets second hand were irate - fansites organized petitions, calls were placed, letters written by lawyers, threatening to sue the organizers. Eventually, the promoter relented because I think they were genuinely concerned about the lawsuit. I didn't win the lottery, but was able to pick up a ticket for 250 GBP.
I know I must sound like an irate child bleating on about a particular pet hate, sorry about that. But the reality is that there's probably a compromise out there somewhere in terms of doing something or other that results principally in two things being achieved:
Firstly - the right of people who buy tickets for an event, genuinely cannot attend themselves, and sell the tickets on - to be maintained
Secondly - the wholesale withholding of tickets by primary vendors and their deliberate direct and immediate diversion straight into the secondary re-selling marketplace be outlawed
The former is a basic human right that people enjoy today, and I am not for one moment advocating that it is withdrawn from them tomorrow or indeed at any point in the future.
The latter is a modern day phenomenon that needs to be reined in and have its excesses curbed
As I mentioned in a previous post, there IS in fact a law in the UK outlawing re-sale of soccer game tickets for anything other than face value. Judging by the sheer number of grievances lodged by disgruntled members of the public trying to attend any other form of event (be it film, theatre, exhibition, music, sport) these days - it would seem as if momentum is gradually building to extend that ruling to all other categories of event.
I for one hope it will happen sooner rather than later.
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
shattered
()
Date: May 23, 2014 11:36
Hi: paulywaul, is flipping houses the same only on a larger scale?
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 12:06
Quote
shattered
Hi: paulywaul, is flipping houses the same only on a larger scale?
Don't see the connection between the two I'm afraid. Flipping houses is done to avoid capital gains tax, if you're lucky enough to own two or more.
What has that got to do with the kind of dubious practices pursued by the primary ticket vendors and the secondary market resellers ?
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
Limbostone
()
Date: May 23, 2014 12:59
For those who haven't seen it yet, the 2012 documentary "The Great Ticket Scandal":
[www.iorr.org]
Will anything have changed by now?
[www.iorr.org]
Will anything have changed by now?
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 13:16
Quote
Limbostone
For those who haven't seen it yet, the 2012 documentary "The Great Ticket Scandal":
[www.iorr.org]
Will anything have changed by now?
Only that that in the couple of intervening years since that in-depth DISPATCHES investigation the phenomenon has worsened in all probability !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
grzegorz67
()
Date: May 23, 2014 15:44
Quote
HopeYouGuessMyName
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest[/quote]
With respect, you are missing the main point. I too, agree that the economy should be driven by market forces, though they can't be left completely unchecked. They have to be regulated. Drug Dealing is Capitalism!!!.
What PW is stressing is the immediate diversion of tickets from Primary to Secondary Seller without Joe Public getting a sniff of a chance to buy them. That isn't capitalism - it's racketeering, tantamount to fraud, if not fraud full stop. To advertise a product at a given price, dangle it in front of the Customer, create a demand and expectation, then give them ZERO opportunity to buy at that price before it re-appears at a huge mark up elsewhere, with the disappointed customer looking on.
That, Ladies & Gents is SCANDALOUS and not a small bit CRUEL.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 16:12
Quote
grzegorz67Quote
HopeYouGuessMyName
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest
With respect, you are missing the main point. I too, agree that the economy should be driven by market forces, though they can't be left completely unchecked. They have to be regulated. Drug Dealing is Capitalism!!!.
What PW is stressing is the immediate diversion of tickets from Primary to Secondary Seller without Joe Public getting a sniff of a chance to buy them. That isn't capitalism - it's racketeering, tantamount to fraud, if not fraud full stop. To advertise a product at a given price, dangle it in front of the Customer, create a demand and expectation, then give them ZERO opportunity to buy at that price before it re-appears at a huge mark up elsewhere, with the disappointed customer looking on.
That, Ladies & Gents is SCANDALOUS and not a small bit CRUEL.[/quote]
Yup, that's about it !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
HopeYouGuessMyName
()
Date: May 23, 2014 21:04
Quote
paulywaulQuote
grzegorz67Quote
HopeYouGuessMyName
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest
With respect, you are missing the main point. I too, agree that the economy should be driven by market forces, though they can't be left completely unchecked. They have to be regulated. Drug Dealing is Capitalism!!!.
What PW is stressing is the immediate diversion of tickets from Primary to Secondary Seller without Joe Public getting a sniff of a chance to buy them. That isn't capitalism - it's racketeering, tantamount to fraud, if not fraud full stop. To advertise a product at a given price, dangle it in front of the Customer, create a demand and expectation, then give them ZERO opportunity to buy at that price before it re-appears at a huge mark up elsewhere, with the disappointed customer looking on.
That, Ladies & Gents is SCANDALOUS and not a small bit CRUEL.
Yup, that's about it !![/quote]
I agree. In this case, our band, The Rolling Stones are to blame as if they wanted to prevent this they could. What band could possibly yield more direct control of their ticket sales than this outfit? Absolutely nobody. One might assume that our guys have their hand in the cookie jar too! Only way to bring prices down is to reduce demand. Since the Stones are great, and not going downhill fast, they could bring prices down by finally becoming a Las Vegas act. And playing every other night for as many months as demand exists. We all know this is not going to happen. ALL I AM TRYING SO SAY IS THAT GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE ANSWER.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 23, 2014 21:42
Quote
HopeYouGuessMyNameQuote
paulywaulQuote
grzegorz67Quote
HopeYouGuessMyName
I am a Rolling Stones fan and a fan of Capitalism (much like Mick Jagger whom I admire) YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING PRICES... That my friend, is the road to SOCIALISM, TOTALITARIANISM, AND OTHER BAD ISMS.... I do not want the government telling me how much I can sell something that I own, that is, a piece of artwork or a ticket to an event. And furthermore, I don't want any government preventing me from buying anything I want at any price that I am willing to pay. Honestly, you live in the land of make-believe. And I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but only honest
With respect, you are missing the main point. I too, agree that the economy should be driven by market forces, though they can't be left completely unchecked. They have to be regulated. Drug Dealing is Capitalism!!!.
What PW is stressing is the immediate diversion of tickets from Primary to Secondary Seller without Joe Public getting a sniff of a chance to buy them. That isn't capitalism - it's racketeering, tantamount to fraud, if not fraud full stop. To advertise a product at a given price, dangle it in front of the Customer, create a demand and expectation, then give them ZERO opportunity to buy at that price before it re-appears at a huge mark up elsewhere, with the disappointed customer looking on.
That, Ladies & Gents is SCANDALOUS and not a small bit CRUEL.
Yup, that's about it !!
I agree. In this case, our band, The Rolling Stones are to blame as if they wanted to prevent this they could. What band could possibly yield more direct control of their ticket sales than this outfit? Absolutely nobody. One might assume that our guys have their hand in the cookie jar too! Only way to bring prices down is to reduce demand. Since the Stones are great, and not going downhill fast, they could bring prices down by finally becoming a Las Vegas act. And playing every other night for as many months as demand exists. We all know this is not going to happen. ALL I AM TRYING SO SAY IS THAT GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE ANSWER.[/quote]
We'll agree to disagree, I personally think that the current woeful situation is not going to improve if it's left to all the participant players to self regulate (which is actually the line the UK government is taking as it continues to ignore the issue and sit on the fence) .............. so if "self" regulation ain't gonna work ??!! Well then guess what, some other form of regulation might just shake things up ?? And that will almost take the form of a piece of legislation, and as such - driven by government !
That's my take on it !
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: May 23, 2014 21:59
Quote
paulywaul
ROME pit ticket prices are falling dramatically - here's an example from VIAGOGO this evening Thursday 22 May:
The Rolling Stones
Sunday, 22 June 2014 19:00
Circus Maximus, Rome, Italy
Section: Pit Area - Standing
Number of Tickets: 1
Price/Ticket €150.00
Booking Fee €22.50
Subtotal €172.50
Estimated Total Price
£139.70 + Handling and VAT
That's ridiculously low. If I wasn't going to be sunning myself in Ibiza I'd go.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 24, 2014 08:44
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
paulywaul
ROME pit ticket prices are falling dramatically - here's an example from VIAGOGO this evening Thursday 22 May:
The Rolling Stones
Sunday, 22 June 2014 19:00
Circus Maximus, Rome, Italy
Section: Pit Area - Standing
Number of Tickets: 1
Price/Ticket €150.00
Booking Fee €22.50
Subtotal €172.50
Estimated Total Price
£139.70 + Handling and VAT
That's ridiculously low. If I wasn't going to be sunning myself in Ibiza I'd go.
Personally, I'd sun myself in Rome AND get to see the Stones at the same time !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
MingSubu
()
Date: May 24, 2014 08:50
Quote
paulywaulQuote
Silver DaggerQuote
paulywaul
ROME pit ticket prices are falling dramatically - here's an example from VIAGOGO this evening Thursday 22 May:
The Rolling Stones
Sunday, 22 June 2014 19:00
Circus Maximus, Rome, Italy
Section: Pit Area - Standing
Number of Tickets: 1
Price/Ticket €150.00
Booking Fee €22.50
Subtotal €172.50
Estimated Total Price
£139.70 + Handling and VAT
That's ridiculously low. If I wasn't going to be sunning myself in Ibiza I'd go.
Personally, I'd sun myself in Rome AND get to see the Stones at the same time !!
Hopin' to be doing the same.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: May 24, 2014 08:59
There is absolutely no need to buy tickets from scalpers or scalping firms. Usually, even though the event is, supposedly sold out, there are tickets left at the box office days before the event. And remember there is a significant risk in buying "black market" tickets. They might not be valid.One way to prevent scalping is to minimize the amount of tickets you can buy at each time. 10 is way to much and endorses scalping. Half of that or less should be enough.
Re: The definitive anti-scalper thread - let them choke on it !!
Posted by:
paulywaul
()
Date: May 24, 2014 09:14
Quote
Stoneage
There is absolutely no need to buy tickets from scalpers or scalping firms. Usually, even though the event is, supposedly sold out, there are tickets left at the box office days before the event. And remember there is a significant risk in buying "black market" tickets. They might not be valid.One way to prevent scalping is to minimize the amount of tickets you can buy at each time. 10 is way to much and endorses scalping. Half of that or less should be enough.
Yep, they (the operators in the secondary market) call your bluff by trying to manipulate the market and persuade you the event is heavily in demand and therefore you should buy from them at grossly distorted prices, and you in turn should treat them with the utter contempt they deserve and not buy from them. It generally works. We're witnessing the standoff here, pit tickets (the various golden and diamond standing circles) for Zurich, Berlin, Vienna, Rome (to name but three) are all at - or even significantly below - face value on the secondary market already.
As I said in the thread title - let the mother****ers choke on it !!
[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]
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