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yorkshirestone

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paulywaul

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yorkshirestone
Sounds good, fan to fan platform. I think arctic monkeys made a point of it being their only official resale channel (sheeran too I think). The 10% covers the booking fee the original purchaser paid. It’s a great option for a fan who can no longer make it (but hopefully they have measured in place to stop touts buying in bulk from there then sticking them on viagogo?)

You might want to check out this thread on the subject of the despicable Viagogo ......

[iorr.org]

Yeah can’t stand viagogo. Even uk government ministers have public ally said ‘don’t use viagogo’
Like the sounds of twickets tho

Yes, and another really good and brilliantly straight and honest site for getting rid of tickets that you can't actually use yourself (but at face value only) is Scarletmist. I have used it on a few occasions over many years now, and used it recently in fact to get rid of an 'Eric Clapton in Hyde Park' ticket for 8th July - because the date clashed with the Stones wrapping up their 2018 No filter excursion in Warsaw.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Well, the ticket I bought on Tuesday afternoon arrived at my place this morning and is now in my sweaty palm.

It has the name of the original purchaser on it, but by bringing a copy of the Twickets confirmation email to the show, and my ID, all should be good (according to the Twickets site).


So far I have been very impressed with the friendly, transparent and fairly priced process.


Will keep you updated.

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peoplewitheyes
Well, the ticket I bought on Tuesday afternoon arrived at my place this morning and is now in my sweaty palm.

It has the name of the original purchaser on it, but by bringing a copy of the Twickets confirmation email to the show, and my ID, all should be good (according to the Twickets site).


So far I have been very impressed with the friendly, transparent and fairly priced process.


Will keep you updated.

The precise opposite of what you would experience with Viagogo, which is precisely why Viagogo needs to disappear - and disappear soon !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

[www.thestar.com]

Got tickets to this weekend’s Bruno Mars show? Here’s why the guy sitting beside you may have paid hundreds of dollars less
By MARCO CHOWN OVED Investigative Reporter
ROBERT CRIBB Investigative Reporter
Tues., Sept. 18, 2018

At this Saturday’s Bruno Mars concert at the Scotiabank Arena, eight lucky fans will have a close-up view of the show from the second row of section 118 — seats they landed for $546 apiece.

Sixteen seats away, in the same row, will be another Bruno Mars fan who paid only $191 for a nearly identical view of the show — an eight-metre gap that comes with a $350 discount.

A seven-month Toronto Star/CBC analysis of box office sales for the show, part of Mars’s 24K Magic world tour, reveals the hidden tricks of the ticketing trade that allow manipulation of seat prices, create the appearance of scarcity and maximize revenues.

The effect: fans pay more — or get left out entirely.

The mysterious world of concert ticketing in the 21st century is dominated by Ticketmaster, which has a near-monopoly on major event ticketing and an expanding tool kit of sales techniques that have changed everything you thought you knew about getting in to your favourite show.

Face value isn’t a fixed number — it’s a price that rises and falls with demand. Sold out doesn’t necessarily mean sold out. And the guy sitting beside you may have paid hundreds of dollars less than you did — even though you both bought your tickets from the box office.

Reporters monitored online seat sales for the Bruno Mars concert between February and September and watched the quantity of seats available and their prices change. The data did not capture every ticket sold — especially early in the buying frenzy — but still provides unprecedented detail on ticket sales.

Ticketmaster didn’t disclose how many seats were put on sale when the box office opened at noon on Feb. 16. The investigation, which analyzed the box office seven times in the first hour of sales, found fewer than half of the seats in the arena for sale.

In eight sections, not a single ticket was put on sale. But 90 minutes later, these tickets trickled out in pairs and rows.

These seats are known as “hold-backs” and effectively throttle the supply of tickets in the opening moments when demand is highest.

It’s the digital equivalent of security staff keeping a long line of partygoers outside a nightclub to create the illusion of popularity and mask the reality that there’s plenty of room inside.

“They do this for most shows. It’s standard practice,” said Ervil DiGiusto, a professional ticket broker who closely monitors the sales on Ticketmaster’s website.

“They have complete rows but they don’t put them up all at once,” he said. “If (a fan) only sees a few pairs for sale, they’re going to jump on them.”

Hold-backs don’t just occur in the opening hours. Months after the box office opened, more blocks of tickets were released for the Bruno Mars show. On June 14 — four months after tickets initially went on sale — 72 premium seats on the floor and in the lower bowl appeared on the Ticketmaster site. On Aug. 7, another 144 tickets were released.

Had those tickets been released earlier, fans who purchased more expensive seats might have opted for cheaper tickets.

“They’re artificially driving the price up. They’re artificially giving the impression of high demand,” said class action lawyer Tony Merchant, who launched a lawsuit against Ticketmaster in January after Canada’s Competition Bureau accused the company of price-gouging.

He said Ticketmaster is making it impossible for consumers to make informed choices about their ticket purchases.

“I think government ought to be looking into it.”

Ticketmaster refused multiple requests for an interview to respond to the investigation’s findings. Instead, spokesperson Catherine Martin provided an emailed statement.

“Ticketmaster is a technology platform that helps artists and teams connect with their fans. We do not own the tickets sold on our platform nor do we have any control over ticket pricing,” she wrote. “We also do not determine when tickets are available for purchase or how they are allocated — those decisions are communicated to us by our client, the venue, after consultation with the event presenter.”

Bruno Mars did not respond to multiple requests for comment. Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which owns the Scotiabank Arena, referred comment to the concert’s promoters. The 24K Magic tour is promoted by Live Nation, which owns Ticketmaster.

Ticket prices for Mars’s show were a moving target. The investigation found 152 seats had a face price that changed without notice, some by hundreds of dollars.

For example, six seats in section 118 went on sale for $799 each. Ninety minutes later, their price jumped to $895. They were bought, and one was posted for resale at $1,400.

Changing the face price of a ticket is a technique the ticket industry calls “dynamic pricing.” It’s been compared to the variable prices of a plane ticket or hotel room. Unlike airlines and hotels, however, there’s a very limited number of Bruno Mars concerts, so a customer can’t simply opt for a cheaper show.

A pop-up window on Ticketmaster.com informs buyers that “Platinum Tickets are tickets that are dynamically priced up and down based on demand.” But the investigation found the face price changed on far more standard tickets (120) than on platinum seats (32).

While it can drive prices up, dynamic pricing can also result in cheaper tickets.

In section 109, for example, four tickets were initially priced at $750. The price jumped to $895 a little more than an hour later. Two were bought the next day, but the other pair sat unsold for four months. In June, Ticketmaster cut their price to $595 and the pair finally sold.

“When a show is really popular, (dynamic pricing) works,” said ticket broker DiGiusto. “But when it doesn’t sell out, the prices come back down again.”

Ticketmaster has another way to increase its take from every concert — the resale market. The Star/CBC analysis found that fees on resale tickets stood to nearly double Ticketmaster’s revenues for the show.

In recent years, Ticketmaster has moved into the lucrative scalping market, allowing people to re-post tickets for sale through its website. These “verified resale” tickets appear as pink dots alongside the blue dots marking box office tickets on Ticketmaster’s map of the arena. Ticketmaster collects a second fee on every pink seat sold.

For example, Ticketmaster collected a $25.75 fee on a $209.50 ticket sold through the box office. When the buyer posted the ticket for resale at $400, the company stood to collect an another $76 fee on the same ticket.

Total box office fees for the 17,308 seats in the Scotiabank Arena would amount to $350,000. If all 4,500 verified resale tickets posted for the show sold, Ticketmaster would gain an additional $308,000 in fees, the investigation found.

Ticketmaster would not disclose what proportion of its fees — primary and secondary — it passes along to the artist and venue.

This practice of “double dipping” on commissions “is just plain wrong,” said Richard Powers, an associate professor and sports marketing specialist at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Business.

“They know that the vast majority of these tickets will end up for resale on the secondary market, where they will likely collect a second commission. That is misleading and unethical,” Powers said. “In a monopolistic environment, fans have little choice.”

As enticement to prospective ticket buyers, Ticketmaster promoted seats for the Bruno Mars show priced as low as $56.

The investigation found only 20 seats available at that price. While the analysis likely missed some of those cheap seats, it’s safe to say they still made up less than 1 per cent of the tickets to the show.

Even with decades of experience, DiGiusto says it has become much more difficult for anyone to procure good seats for shows.

“They have all the power to do whatever they want — hold back, change the price, do anything. Regular people have no chance.”

Even with decades of experience, DiGiusto says it has become much more difficult for anyone to procure good seats for shows.

“They have all the power to do whatever they want — hold back, change the price, do anything. Regular people have no chance.”

Says it all really, doesn't it ?

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

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paulywaul
Even with decades of experience, DiGiusto says it has become much more difficult for anyone to procure good seats for shows.

“They have all the power to do whatever they want — hold back, change the price, do anything. Regular people have no chance.”

Says it all really, doesn't it ?

Your posts on this subject are fair comment, I agree with them all and they amuse me . However, you might need some blood pressure tablets soon Careful!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-09-18 19:33 by grzegorz67.

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grzegorz67

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paulywaul
Even with decades of experience, DiGiusto says it has become much more difficult for anyone to procure good seats for shows.

“They have all the power to do whatever they want — hold back, change the price, do anything. Regular people have no chance.”

Says it all really, doesn't it ?

Your posts on this subject are fair comment, I agree with them all and they amuse me . However, you might need some blood pressure tablets soon Careful!

Nah, more important things in life to get excited about ... I don't lose any sleep over it, but thanks very much for your concern !

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

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paulywaul

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grzegorz67

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paulywaul
Even with decades of experience, DiGiusto says it has become much more difficult for anyone to procure good seats for shows.

“They have all the power to do whatever they want — hold back, change the price, do anything. Regular people have no chance.”

Says it all really, doesn't it ?

Your posts on this subject are fair comment, I agree with them all and they amuse me . However, you might need some blood pressure tablets soon Careful!

Nah, more important things in life to get excited about ... I don't lose any sleep over it, but thanks very much for your concern !

I was joking Though tone is hard to convey in print. I've met you before 2 or 3 times and you didn't seem the type to blow a 50 Amp fuse despite all your posts about this

Seriously though it really would not take complicated legislation and controls to deal with the whole issue. We've discussed plenty of them here. Why no effective action has been taken is soooo frustrating.

For shows where this ends up happening that I really want to go to, I'll simply turn up on the day, wait for prices to drop, which they always do and buy last gasp. But I'd prefer not to have to in the 1st place.

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grzegorz67

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paulywaul

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grzegorz67

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paulywaul
Even with decades of experience, DiGiusto says it has become much more difficult for anyone to procure good seats for shows.

“They have all the power to do whatever they want — hold back, change the price, do anything. Regular people have no chance.”

Says it all really, doesn't it ?

Your posts on this subject are fair comment, I agree with them all and they amuse me . However, you might need some blood pressure tablets soon Careful!

Nah, more important things in life to get excited about ... I don't lose any sleep over it, but thanks very much for your concern !

I was joking Though tone is hard to convey in print. I've met you before 2 or 3 times and you didn't seem the type to blow a 50 Amp fuse despite all your posts about this

Seriously though it really would not take complicated legislation and controls to deal with the whole issue. We've discussed plenty of them here. Why no effective action has been taken is soooo frustrating.

For shows where this ends up happening that I really want to go to, I'll simply turn up on the day, wait for prices to drop, which they always do and buy last gasp. But I'd prefer not to have to in the 1st place.

Completely agree. I have to admit that I don't often do the 'turn up on the day' bit, but on the rare occasions I have actually done it - it's worked a treat. I remember doing it at Twickenham Stadium for two artists in particular, the Police and the Eagles. I got 2nd row and 4th row seats front of the stage (and pretty much dead centre) respectively, and I paid significantly less than face value for both. As I recall, this was maybe 15 to 20 minutes before the bands took to the stage ..........

I think the reason I don't generally do this for Stones shows is that I would actually mind very much indeed if I couldn't get the exact ticket I wanted, and consequently either end up seeing the show from a s**t position, or not seeing it at all. But for other artists that I'm less fussed about, as a strategy - yes it works. Or at least on the few occasions I've done it, it has for me ....

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

An interesting article that sums up what's been posted here over time based on more random data.

The "verified resale" business is really what gets me...TM are just enabling scalping (and collecting a fee on it!) it should be illegal to do that months in advance.

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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gotdablouse
An interesting article that sums up what's been posted here over time based on more random data.

The "verified resale" business is really what gets me...TM are just enabling scalping (and collecting a fee on it!) it should be illegal to do that months in advance.

Why? If no one buys them, the price comes down. And as the barcodes are regenerated, it's much more secure than other resale platforms.

And it gets worse. Apologies for the length of the article, but I know the link doesn’t work everywhere: [www.thestar.com]

We went undercover as ticket scalpers — and Ticketmaster offered to help us do business

By ROBERT CRIBB Investigative Reporter
MARCO CHOWN OVED Investigative Reporter
Wed., Sept. 19, 2018

LAS VEGAS—Inside a Caesars Palace conference room filled with some of the world’s most successful ticket scalpers, a row of promotional booths pitch software programs that help harvest thousands of sport and concert seats to be resold online at hefty markups.

Clustered around demonstration tables at the three-day Ticket Summit 2018 convention in July, discussion among scalpers inevitably centred on Ticketmaster, the world’s largest ticket supplier that has a near monopoly on major event seating in North America and the United Kingdom.

As gatekeeper to the entertainment industry’s most coveted events, Ticketmaster implements strict purchasing limits designed to prevent scalpers from using bots to buy tickets on a mass scale. In the past, company officials have publicly disparaged the resale ticket market, calling scalpers “pirates” and a threat to fans — even urging governments to criminalize the activity.

But in one corner of the Las Vegas convention floor sat a conspicuous Ticketmaster booth welcoming scalpers with a solemn reassurance: Ticketmaster wants to share in the profits of the resale market by facilitating the mass scalping of its tickets — in direct violation of its own terms of use.

Reporters from the Star and CBC, posing as small-time scalpers from Canada, listened as sales staff pitched a proprietary Ticketmaster software program designed to help bulk buyers resell thousands of tickets.

“I have brokers that have literally a couple of hundred Ticketmaster accounts,” said a sales executive with Ticketmaster Resale speaking to the undercover reporters.

The web-based tool — called Trade Desk — allows scalpers to seamlessly sync their Ticketmaster accounts (where they buy their tickets) with their online resale operation, quickly posting each seat to ticket reselling websites including StubHub, Vivid Seats and ticketmaster.com.

It also gives Ticketmaster a new revenue source: a second commission on every “verified resale” ticket sold on Ticketmaster.com (on top of the commission it collects on the original purchase of each ticket).

Ticketmaster’s terms of use prohibit customers from buying “a number of tickets for an event that exceeds the stated limit for that event.” That limit, which is posted when tickets go on sale, is typically six or eight seats per buyer.

“If we identify breaches of these limits … we reserve the right to cancel any such orders,” read Ticketmaster’s general terms and conditions. “Use of automated means to purchase tickets is strictly prohibited.”

But ticket resellers who break those rules have no reason to be concerned, the sales executive reassured. A blind eye will be turned.

“We don’t spend any time looking at your Ticketmaster.com account. I don’t care what you buy. It doesn’t matter to me,” said the Trade Desk sales executive. “There’s total separation between Ticketmaster and our division. It’s church and state … We don’t monitor that at all.”

Trade Desk staff are aware their users harvest tickets using multiple Ticketmaster accounts, the sales executive said.

“They have to because if you want to get a good show and the ticket limit is six or eight (seats), you’re not going to make a living on eight tickets.”

Star and CBC reporters asked what happens if staff at Ticketmaster headquarters detect unusual activity in the purchasing patterns of a Trade Desk user, such as the use of bots. Will they ask for information from the resale division?

“No,” he said. “We don’t share reports. We don’t share names. We don’t share account information with the primary side, period.”

Reporters from the Star and CBC attended the ticket scalpers conference in Vegas undercover because media were not allowed into sessions where the collaboration between Ticketmaster and scalpers was to be discussed. For months, Ticketmaster has declined interview requests to address these issues. After attending the conference, the Star and the CBC gave Ticketmaster an opportunity to review what their sales people had said and comment. They declined.

In response to a detailed list of questions, the company provided a statement.

“As long as there is an imbalance between supply and demand in live event tickets, there will inevitably be a secondary market,” wrote Catherine Martin, a spokesperson for Ticketmaster. “As the world’s leading ticketing platform … we believe it is our job to offer a marketplace that provides a safe and fair place for fans to shop, buy and sell tickets in both the primary and secondary markets.”

Ticketmaster has previously claimed to have stopped five billion purchase attempts by bots in 2016 alone.

“In addition to our work fighting the use of automated bots, we have also taken the most restrictive stance on speculative ticketing, not allowing any seller, professional or otherwise, to post tickets we have not validated to our TM+ pages,” Martin added.

Richard Powers, associate professor at University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management, said publicly criticizing scalpers while quietly helping them is “misleading” and “unethical.”

“Helping to create a secondary market where purchasers are duped into paying higher prices, and securing themselves a second commission, should be illegal,” he said.

The monopoly Ticketmaster enjoys “allows them to do pretty much whatever they like and, until a government has the will to end this practice by appropriating resources and establishing significant penalties for transgressions, the practice is likely to continue,” Powers said.

Reg Walker, a leading British expert on ticket scalping, questioned why Ticketmaster would make a program for scalpers.

“Why on earth would you design software to list tickets in bulk on your secondary site for people who could be reasonably suspected of having attacked your primary site?” said Walker, who runs a security consulting firm in London.

“They are facilitating or turning a blind eye to (scalpers) with multiple accounts harvesting tickets in bulk and reselling them, despite the fact they pontificate they do everything to stop this. That needs investigating by the authorities.”

Allegations about Ticketmaster courting scalpers with preferential treatment recently emerged in California court filings as part of a 2017 lawsuit the company filed against three ticket brokering companies accusing them of using computer bots to “improperly procure tickets for the purpose of reselling them at a substantial profit.”

In response, Prestige Entertainment West Inc. alleges that Ticketmaster uses its website to “deceive consumers and line its pockets from double-dip commissions.”

“The vast majority of ticket reseller activity is patently obvious to (Ticketmaster), and yet (Ticketmaster) does nothing to prevent this activity, failing to block or terminate accounts … where account-holders are purchasing tickets in quantities that are obviously not for personal use,” reads the responding filing.

“(Ticketmaster’s) willing embrace of ticket reseller activity on its website is a core part of its business model as is the enhanced profits that (Ticketmaster) obtained from double-dip commissions.”

None of the allegations have been proven in court.

Walker reviewed a transcript of the conversation with a Trade Desk salesperson and concluded: “I think it strips away the PR and the hype and the spin that Ticketmaster acts to protect consumers and give them a fair crack at getting the ticket at face value … and basically exposes what could be extremely dubious activity that disadvantages genuine music and sports fans.”

During a video conference this spring, another Trade Desk sales executive, speaking with Star and CBC reporters who posed as brokers, explained how Ticketmaster does not want to catch scalpers using multiple accounts.

“We’ve spent millions of dollars on this tool, so the last thing we’d want to do is, you know, get brokers caught up to where they can’t sell inventory with us,” he said. “We’re not trying to build a better mousetrap. I think the last thing we want to do is impair your ability to sell inventory. That’s our whole goal here on the resale side of the business.”

Using Trade Desk brings an immediate 3 per cent discount on Ticketmaster’s usual 7 per cent selling fee on a resale ticket. And the more users scalp, the greater the incentives become.

Once they hit $500,000 in sales, a percentage point is shaved off their fees. At $1 million, another percentage point falls off.

“Scalpers get preferential treatment over consumers,” says U.K. expert Walker. “An average consumer would not need this software to list the ticket they could no longer use … This is simply done to assist touts (scalpers) in processing more and more tickets faster and faster and faster.”

In a session closed to media, Ticketmaster Resale senior director Casey Klein stood in front of conference room packed with hundreds of scalpers. An image of a sharply ascending graph illustrating broker registrations over the past five years loomed behind him. It was headlined, “We Appreciate Your Partnership: More Brokers are Listing with Ticketmaster than Ever Before.”

“(We want to) make sure brokers know that they have the ability to sell on Ticketmaster Resale but also that we’re committing significant resources to help you do that,” he said. “I’m confident there is no company more capable of helping you succeed in a mobile world than Ticketmaster Resale.”

That language contradicts what company officials have said about the resale industry over the past decade.

In a 2007 written submission to a U.K. House of Commons committee examining ticket scalping, Ticketmaster U.K. argued that the “unauthorized resale of tickets for profit does not promote fair and equitable distribution of tickets, and drains tickets away from the primary market, thus restricting the opportunity for genuine fans to purchase them legitimately.”

The company urged British lawmakers to make the marked-up resale of event tickets a criminal offence.

That didn’t happen.

Early the next year, in an apparent effort to join the resellers if it couldn’t beat them, Ticketmaster purchased two online resale websites, TicketsNow (Canada/U.S.) and Get Me In! (U.K.).

That move was the subject of regret by 2009, according to company testimony before U.S. lawmakers.

Irving Azoff, former CEO of Ticketmaster, told a U.S. federal hearing he never liked the idea of Ticketmaster being in the secondary ticket sales market.

“I never would have bought it,” he told the hearing. “The whole secondary area is a mess. In a perfect world, I personally would hope that there would be a more transparent, accurate primary that would do away with the need for any secondary whatsoever.”

During discussions of a merger between Ticketmaster and Live Nation, Azoff told the committee: “I believe that scalping and resales should be illegal … I don’t believe there should be a secondary market at all.”

The Ticketmaster/Live Nation merger was allowed in 2010 based on an order that the new company enter into a consent decree to avoid anticompetitive conduct.

Four years later, in 2014, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission settled charges with Ticketmaster for using “deceptive bait-and-switch tactics to sell event tickets to consumers.” The federal agency alleged Ticketmaster steered unwitting ticket buyers to its TicketsNow secondary site where seats were sold at inflated prices of up to four times their face value.

Ticketmaster agreed to refund consumers who bought tickets to 14 Bruce Springsteen concerts in 2009 through TicketsNow, and to be clear about the costs and risks of buying through its reseller sites.

In April, the New York Times reported Ticketmaster’s parent company, Live Nation, is under investigation by the U.S. Justice Department for possible antitrust violations.

Last month, Ticketmaster U.K. shut down the Get Me In! and Seatwave resale sites even as it recruits scalpers in North America for its burgeoning resale division.

“Our number one priority is to get tickets into the hands of fans so that they can go to the events they love,” Andrew Parsons, Ticketmaster U.K. managing director, said in a statement. “We know that fans are tired of seeing tickets being snapped up just to find them being resold for a profit on secondary websites, so we have taken action. Closing down our secondary sites and creating a ticket exchange on Ticketmaster has always been our long-term plan.”

U.K. ticket expert Walker has four words to account for Ticketmaster’s contradictory business approaches on either side of the Atlantic when it comes to ticket reselling: “hypocrisy at its finest.”

U.K. ticket expert Walker has four words to account for Ticketmaster’s contradictory business approaches on either side of the Atlantic when it comes to ticket reselling: “hypocrisy at its finest.”

Yup, just about sums it up ...........

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

To clarify a few things:

Trade Desk basically just links point of sale systems to the Ticketmaster resale platform so you can sell on TM and other platforms simultaneously without risk of double sale.

The Ticketmaster primary side is making it harder and harder to harvest tickets. Just try for a show and see what happens once you throw back tickets 3 times trying for better ones. And they cancel the transfer and resale feature on customers suspected of violating terms of service.

Also, Ticketmaster is an agent between the venue/artists/promoters and the consumers and therefore usually only cancel tickets upon their request. Imagine you are promoting a concert, finally hit the break even point to pay the million guarantee and start collecting a profit on additional sales only to find out Ticketmaster cancelled a bunch of sales and gave that money back.

But thanks for posting these articles, very informative, most articles just blame bots and scalpers without any real information on what really goes on.

<<< without any real information on what really goes on >>>

As a mere consumer who (like many I imagine) has indeed thrown tickets back several times whilst in search of better ones - and subsequently been 'blocked' by Ticketmaster for the default period of 24 hours, it is very difficult to reconcile that kind of working practice with some of the more nefarious practices pursued by the company, as outlined in that article posted by SomeTorontoGirl.

For example:

<<< Ticketmaster wants to share in the profits of the resale market by facilitating the mass scalping of its tickets — in direct violation of its own terms of use >>>

We obviously have very different interpretations of exactly what 'Trade Desk' is and the function it performs. I am inclined to go with the above interpretation, whereby you as usual choose to interpret it as basically being something that 'just links point of sale systems to the Ticketmaster resale platform so you can sell on TM and other platforms simultaneously without risk of double sale' ........

In other words, you proffer your usual level of support and enthusiasm for an 'industry' (and that is far too kind of a term) that has historically and persistently deceived the concert going public, manipulated the concert going public, and nowadays is increasingly being recognised by artists and promoters alike as doing not only the public a monumental disservice - but also them too. Hence TM's decision to close GETMEIN and SEATWAVE. But as the article so accurately explains, substituting the closure of these platforms with Trade Desk effectively changes nothing. The ONLY upside (if I have fully understood one particular aspect of what they're doing) is that they have seemingly imposed a cap on the 'mark-up' over the original 'face value' price of a ticket. That at least in some measure goes towards curbing the completely ridiculous excesses that have been a persistent feature of the secondary market over the years, and that nowadays - the likes of Viagogo continue to exemplify !

And so back to the quotation at the top of this post. Exactly what 'information do you have about what really goes on' that the rest of us don't ? Don't tell me, you work for Ticketmaster ......... ?

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-09-20 10:20 by paulywaul.

To finish up my Twickets experience...

I got to the show, with the confirmation email on my phone, ready to show why it was not my name on the ticket. Entering the venue they just scanned the ticket, no one asked anything about names etc.

Taking my seat in the arena, the young woman in the next seat turned to me - 'are you R****y?' she asked, confirming that yes, I was, she explained that her friend had had to go to hospital, hence selling the ticket. I thanked her, and passed on my best wished and appreciation to her friend.

The show was great.

Final conclusion: Twickets was a very nice, fairly priced, smooth, fast and personal way of getting a ticket. Far better (and cheaper) than dealing with the smoke and mirrors nonsense (and costs) of viagogo etc.

I would definitely recommend Twickets!

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peoplewitheyes
To finish up my Twickets experience...

I got to the show, with the confirmation email on my phone, ready to show why it was not my name on the ticket. Entering the venue they just scanned the ticket, no one asked anything about names etc.

Taking my seat in the arena, the young woman in the next seat turned to me - 'are you R****y?' she asked, confirming that yes, I was, she explained that her friend had had to go to hospital, hence selling the ticket. I thanked her, and passed on my best wished and appreciation to her friend.

The show was great.

Final conclusion: Twickets was a very nice, fairly priced, smooth, fast and personal way of getting a ticket. Far better (and cheaper) than dealing with the smoke and mirrors nonsense (and costs) of viagogo etc.

I would definitely recommend Twickets!

Your story exemplifies precisely what ticket re-selling should be, as opposed to what it actually has become these days, a strictly commercial exercise ....

THAT is the difference. There is of course a genuine need for people to rid themselves of tickets for things they honestly can't attend for umpteen reasons, and as such - a need for platforms such as Twickets. I also have used Scarletmist, it is very similar. What there most definitely is not a continued need for are platforms (whether they be Ticketmaster themselves or third party outfits) that still continue to facilitate the bulk buying of tickets and the bulk re-selling of those tickets ........

Your comment <<< far better (and cheaper) than dealing with the smoke and mirrors nonsense (and costs) of viagogo etc >>> says it all ....

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

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In a 2007 written submission to a U.K. House of Commons committee examining ticket scalping, Ticketmaster U.K. argued that the “unauthorized resale of tickets for profit does not promote fair and equitable distribution of tickets, and drains tickets away from the primary market, thus restricting the opportunity for genuine fans to purchase them legitimately.”

The company urged British lawmakers to make the marked-up resale of event tickets a criminal offence.

That didn’t happen.

Early the next year, in an apparent effort to join the resellers if it couldn’t beat them, Ticketmaster purchased two online resale websites, TicketsNow (Canada/U.S.) and Get Me In! (U.K.).

So it seems TM just adapted and decided to at least get a 25% commission on resales, it's not right but they're driven by profit, so why not...What are the US and the UK waiting for to make the resale of tickets above face value illegal like it already is in France ? That would of course kill the scalper business, who's going to complain ? TM could still list "verified resale" tickets on their website but of course there would be much less motivation to cheat out honest people and there you would indeed have genuine "fan resales" when you find out close to the show that you finally can't make it.

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

Regarding being blocked by TM after throwing tickets back, I've found that if I delete my browsing history I can then start searching again.

Quote
paulywaul
<<< without any real information on what really goes on >>>

As a mere consumer who (like many I imagine) has indeed thrown tickets back several times whilst in search of better ones - and subsequently been 'blocked' by Ticketmaster for the default period of 24 hours, it is very difficult to reconcile that kind of working practice with some of the more nefarious practices pursued by the company, as outlined in that article posted by SomeTorontoGirl.

For example:

<<< Ticketmaster wants to share in the profits of the resale market by facilitating the mass scalping of its tickets — in direct violation of its own terms of use >>>

We obviously have very different interpretations of exactly what 'Trade Desk' is and the function it performs. I am inclined to go with the above interpretation, whereby you as usual choose to interpret it as basically being something that 'just links point of sale systems to the Ticketmaster resale platform so you can sell on TM and other platforms simultaneously without risk of double sale' ........

In other words, you proffer your usual level of support and enthusiasm for an 'industry' (and that is far too kind of a term) that has historically and persistently deceived the concert going public, manipulated the concert going public, and nowadays is increasingly being recognised by artists and promoters alike as doing not only the public a monumental disservice - but also them too. Hence TM's decision to close GETMEIN and SEATWAVE. But as the article so accurately explains, substituting the closure of these platforms with Trade Desk effectively changes nothing. The ONLY upside (if I have fully understood one particular aspect of what they're doing) is that they have seemingly imposed a cap on the 'mark-up' over the original 'face value' price of a ticket. That at least in some measure goes towards curbing the completely ridiculous excesses that have been a persistent feature of the secondary market over the years, and that nowadays - the likes of Viagogo continue to exemplify !

And so back to the quotation at the top of this post. Exactly what 'information do you have about what really goes on' that the rest of us don't ? Don't tell me, you work for Ticketmaster ......... ?

I go to 200+ shows a year and know a lot about how concert ticketing and the secondary market works.

And this is also all part of performer greed.

My interpretation right now is that Live Nation is paying so much up front (we all know artists don't take a mere percentage of ticket sales) that they are looking for assistance is assuming some of the risk via bulk selling to brokers who can sell above or below face value.

I can name two tours off the top of my head last year where roughly 1,000 secondary market tickets went unsold every night, LORDE and PROPHETS OF RAGE. So that's millions of additional dollars in ticket sales on the primary market off just two tours.

Of course, for all I know about concert tickets, I still don't understand how someone can actually make a profit off a mediocre $200 Cher ticket or $300 Paul McCartney ticket.

Quote
gotdablouse

Quote

In a 2007 written submission to a U.K. House of Commons committee examining ticket scalping, Ticketmaster U.K. argued that the “unauthorized resale of tickets for profit does not promote fair and equitable distribution of tickets, and drains tickets away from the primary market, thus restricting the opportunity for genuine fans to purchase them legitimately.”

The company urged British lawmakers to make the marked-up resale of event tickets a criminal offence.

That didn’t happen.

Early the next year, in an apparent effort to join the resellers if it couldn’t beat them, Ticketmaster purchased two online resale websites, TicketsNow (Canada/U.S.) and Get Me In! (U.K.).

So it seems TM just adapted and decided to at least get a 25% commission on resales, it's not right but they're driven by profit, so why not...What are the US and the UK waiting for to make the resale of tickets above face value illegal like it already is in France ? That would of course kill the scalper business, who's going to complain ? TM could still list "verified resale" tickets on their website but of course there would be much less motivation to cheat out honest people and there you would indeed have genuine "fan resales" when you find out close to the show that you finally can't make it.

This is a free country. Anyone who doesn't like it is always free to move to France.

And even in the era of the $10 concert ticket, the concert industry has ALWAYS been driven by profit.

Interesting...your relentless defending of the scalpers is very "perplexing" (to say the least) as it's obvious to anyone with a brain or even the tiniest amount of moral sense that reselling tickets for a huge profit with zero added value is just plain wrong. It's a purely parasitic business and the earlier an end is put to it, the better.

@paulywaul - where did you see that TM are putting some kind of "cap" on the resale value ? Looking at some McCartney shows I'm seeing some 10x markups !

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

Quote
gotdablouse
Interesting...your relentless defending of the scalpers is very "perplexing" (to say the least) as it's obvious to anyone with a brain or even the tiniest amount of moral sense that reselling tickets for a huge profit with zero added value is just plain wrong. It's a purely parasitic business and the earlier an end is put to it, the better.

@paulywaul - where did you see that TM are putting some kind of "cap" on the resale value ? Looking at some McCartney shows I'm seeing some 10x markups !

I think it must have been in either a BBC online news article or perhaps a newspaper article, where a spokesperson for TM was talking about the closure of Seatwave and Getmein, and in the context of that - they'd mentioned that one of the features of the 'new platform' that TM themselves were providing - was that there was to be an absolute cap on the mark-up above the figure that we can best describe as the initial/original face value price (presumably set by artist/promoter) ?

That was essentially what I read. This would have been back a few weeks ago when the news broke about the closure of Seatwave and Getmein.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Quote
gotdablouse
Interesting...your relentless defending of the scalpers is very "perplexing" (to say the least) as it's obvious to anyone with a brain or even the tiniest amount of moral sense that reselling tickets for a huge profit with zero added value is just plain wrong. It's a purely parasitic business and the earlier an end is put to it, the better.

I prefer a free market. In this market, there is no "face value," just the price the ticket is worth at any particular time.

Not sure where morality comes into this, it's just a concert. No one cares if you can't afford to go, especially if every seat is going to be filled. The "problem" as I have seen it ever since the Eagles dropped the first $100 plus tickets on is in 1994 is people willing to pay far too much for this experience.

Quote

@paulywaul - where did you see that TM are putting some kind of "cap" on the resale value ? Looking at some McCartney shows I'm seeing some 10x markups !

The resale cap is UK only from what I understand.

Quote
Dan

Quote
gotdablouse
Interesting...your relentless defending of the scalpers is very "perplexing" (to say the least) as it's obvious to anyone with a brain or even the tiniest amount of moral sense that reselling tickets for a huge profit with zero added value is just plain wrong. It's a purely parasitic business and the earlier an end is put to it, the better.

I prefer a free market. In this market, there is no "face value," just the price the ticket is worth at any particular time.

[/quote]

What has free market to do with ticket scalping? As gotdablouse pointed out, it is getting big bucks for zero value, while at the same time not a single penny from the above face value goes to those who actually provide the value (not only the artists, but all people involved). Call me old fashioned, I have always thought that those who create values shoud get paid, not the parasites who never provide or create anything, just always know a smart way to get money.

I can kind of live with the fact that the tickets prices are going sky-high these days, as long as at least I know I pay the artist, the promoter, those who bring me the show - that is a free market. Where do scalpers fit in?

Quote
Happy24

Quote
Dan

Quote
gotdablouse
Interesting...your relentless defending of the scalpers is very "perplexing" (to say the least) as it's obvious to anyone with a brain or even the tiniest amount of moral sense that reselling tickets for a huge profit with zero added value is just plain wrong. It's a purely parasitic business and the earlier an end is put to it, the better.

I prefer a free market. In this market, there is no "face value," just the price the ticket is worth at any particular time.

What has free market to do with ticket scalping? As gotdablouse pointed out, it is getting big bucks for zero value, while at the same time not a single penny from the above face value goes to those who actually provide the value (not only the artists, but all people involved). Call me old fashioned, I have always thought that those who create values shoud get paid, not the parasites who never provide or create anything, just always know a smart way to get money.

I can kind of live with the fact that the tickets prices are going sky-high these days, as long as at least I know I pay the artist, the promoter, those who bring me the show - that is a free market. Where do scalpers fit in?[/quote]


As has been explained numerous times, not only are artists up to their necks in this, they benefit in numerous ways from driving up the primary prices (and their guarantees) upwards and also by making their leftover $100plus face value tickets seem like a bargain in comparison to listed secondary prices.

And I wouldn't say there is zero value, after all the consumer is paying for what he or she hopes is valuable experience. And of course there is value for the bargain hunter when brokers have to cut their losses and dump their tickets.

Bob Lefsetz's take on the Ticketmaster kerfuffle:

The Ticketmaster Nightmare

"'A public relations nightmare': Ticketmaster recruits pros for secret scalper program": [bit.ly]

The pubic doesn't understand ticketing. People believe they're entitled to a front row seat for face price to all shows. Furthermore, they've been abused. They used to line up and now they've got to get up in the morning to find out they can't buy tickets and all the seats are bought by bots. Those damn scalpers, they're the problem!

Only they're not. First, blame the acts. Second, blame Ticketmaster.

Music is opaque. The most immediate medium, only the song is for real. After that... Well, there's studio trickery and lies. But this is an industry built on hype and image, and no one wants to mess with that. They say the show is sold out when it isn't. They say the act has reached a milestone when it hasn't. Meanwhile, you still want to go and experience your favorite act live.

Recorded music distribution has been worked out, with streaming. But acts HATE IT! Because it reveals truth. I.e. nobody is listening to your music. Used to be you could fake it, with radio play and artificial statistics. Now you're not in the top fifty, not even in the top hundred, and people cherry-pick the hits and you're not making what you used to and somehow it's the streaming service's fault.

But the streaming services are run by youngsters praying to a different god. Tech is all about transparency, there's a different playing field. I'm not saying there are not shenanigans, but much fewer, and the music business HATES THIS!

Music has been a thug business. Based on intimidation forever. Music wants no light shined upon it the same way Trump doesn't want you to see his tax returns. If you saw how the sausage was made you'd be horrified. And heads would roll.

Will heads roll at Ticketmaster?

Now what you have to know is all the money is in ticketing. Once Clear Channel became Live Nation and Michael Rapino failed in trying to get the acts to take a haircut, promoters have overpaid the acts, given them all the ticket revenue, the profit is in the ticketing itself.

The fees. Those don't all go to Ticketmaster. They're shared with the building, the promoter, sometimes the act itself. But almost all the profit is in selling the ticket itself. That's the essence of the CBC article, one people will miss while they rail at the damn scalpers.

"...resale tickets are particularly lucrative for Ticketmaster because the company charges fees twice on the same ticket.

So, for example, if Ticketmaster collects $25.75 on a $209.50 ticket on the initial sale, when the owner posts it for resale for $400 on the site, the company stands to collect an additional $76 on the same ticket."

That's all you need to know.

All this Verified Fan hogwash, all these paeans to the customer, they're all secondary to the bottom line. It's very simple, this is a business, Ticketmaster is part of Live Nation, and the company is public and the numbers have to go up. How can they?

Well, via festivals and sponsorships. Festivals are owned by promoters and there's tons of money left over after paying the acts, assuming the gig is successful. And sponsorship is the hidden profit center. But really, it's about those fees. All those shows promoted by Live Nation, think of all those profits on those resold tickets, that's GOLD!

So what happens now?

The acts are afraid of looking greedy. They don't want to charge what the ticket is worth. There's been some improvement, with gold circle/I Love All Access, great seats for their true market value. But the rest of the house?

Then there's flex pricing. Works for the Stones, but they're in a league of their own, and they've been seen as mercenary for decades. As for Taylor Swift... The grosses were high, but fans were pissed off at the prices and sales were soft, especially in the U.K.

So what's the solution?

Either sell the tickets for what they're worth or go paperless.

But no one likes these options. Ticketmaster makes less money, the act is seen as ripping-fans off and these same fans want transferability, they don't want to be tied to the ticket, in some cases the fans are trying to resell the tickets themselves, although this is a fool's errand in today's bot culture.

But, once again, all the blame is put upon the scalpers. The bad guys. Who are giving people what they want, the ability to pay fair price to attend shows. The scalpers are not going away as long as tickets are underpriced. And now that Ticketmaster has integrated the scalped tickets with the primary scalping has been institutionalized.

You might see this as an inability to stop technology, but really it's nothing of the sort. This is all about making MONEY!

Will there be a Congressional hearing? Will there be laws? Elected officials can't understand the ticketing business and the laws always get it wrong.

Since Live Nation is a public company will heads roll?

Possibly, look what happened after the #MeToo movement.

Furthermore, especially in this era where experience is king, don't expect fans to hold back, they want to go.

So I don't expect any real change.

But there could be.

[lefsetz.com]

[www.youtube.com]

Yes it really is true no one understands ticketing,

Now watching video of the Bruno Mars sale ...

The extra sections that opened up 90 mins into the sale ...

Side stage and slightly behind the stage tickets for most events are only opened up if they are going to have a sellout. These are always the last sections. So if it looks like Bruno Mars is only going to sell 12,000 tickets those will never be put on sale. Or sometimes the shows go on sale so far in advance production isn't finalized so if they think they can sell more tickets they will alter the production to accomodate more fans.

Now Black Sabbath LA Sports Arena 2013 they put the half the sidestage sections the day of the show then never stationed anybody at the entrance so I was able to just walk down and grab an empty seat on the fringes and be close to Tony Iommi on a slight rear angle.

Quote
bye bye johnny
Bob Lefsetz's take on the Ticketmaster kerfuffle:

The Ticketmaster Nightmare

"'A public relations nightmare': Ticketmaster recruits pros for secret scalper program": [bit.ly]

The pubic doesn't understand ticketing. People believe they're entitled to a front row seat for face price to all shows. Furthermore, they've been abused. They used to line up and now they've got to get up in the morning to find out they can't buy tickets and all the seats are bought by bots. Those damn scalpers, they're the problem!

Only they're not. First, blame the acts. Second, blame Ticketmaster.

Music is opaque. The most immediate medium, only the song is for real. After that... Well, there's studio trickery and lies. But this is an industry built on hype and image, and no one wants to mess with that. They say the show is sold out when it isn't. They say the act has reached a milestone when it hasn't. Meanwhile, you still want to go and experience your favorite act live.

Recorded music distribution has been worked out, with streaming. But acts HATE IT! Because it reveals truth. I.e. nobody is listening to your music. Used to be you could fake it, with radio play and artificial statistics. Now you're not in the top fifty, not even in the top hundred, and people cherry-pick the hits and you're not making what you used to and somehow it's the streaming service's fault.

But the streaming services are run by youngsters praying to a different god. Tech is all about transparency, there's a different playing field. I'm not saying there are not shenanigans, but much fewer, and the music business HATES THIS!

Music has been a thug business. Based on intimidation forever. Music wants no light shined upon it the same way Trump doesn't want you to see his tax returns. If you saw how the sausage was made you'd be horrified. And heads would roll.

Will heads roll at Ticketmaster?

Now what you have to know is all the money is in ticketing. Once Clear Channel became Live Nation and Michael Rapino failed in trying to get the acts to take a haircut, promoters have overpaid the acts, given them all the ticket revenue, the profit is in the ticketing itself.

The fees. Those don't all go to Ticketmaster. They're shared with the building, the promoter, sometimes the act itself. But almost all the profit is in selling the ticket itself. That's the essence of the CBC article, one people will miss while they rail at the damn scalpers.

"...resale tickets are particularly lucrative for Ticketmaster because the company charges fees twice on the same ticket.

So, for example, if Ticketmaster collects $25.75 on a $209.50 ticket on the initial sale, when the owner posts it for resale for $400 on the site, the company stands to collect an additional $76 on the same ticket."

That's all you need to know.

All this Verified Fan hogwash, all these paeans to the customer, they're all secondary to the bottom line. It's very simple, this is a business, Ticketmaster is part of Live Nation, and the company is public and the numbers have to go up. How can they?

Well, via festivals and sponsorships. Festivals are owned by promoters and there's tons of money left over after paying the acts, assuming the gig is successful. And sponsorship is the hidden profit center. But really, it's about those fees. All those shows promoted by Live Nation, think of all those profits on those resold tickets, that's GOLD!

So what happens now?

The acts are afraid of looking greedy. They don't want to charge what the ticket is worth. There's been some improvement, with gold circle/I Love All Access, great seats for their true market value. But the rest of the house?

Then there's flex pricing. Works for the Stones, but they're in a league of their own, and they've been seen as mercenary for decades. As for Taylor Swift... The grosses were high, but fans were pissed off at the prices and sales were soft, especially in the U.K.

So what's the solution?

Either sell the tickets for what they're worth or go paperless.

But no one likes these options. Ticketmaster makes less money, the act is seen as ripping-fans off and these same fans want transferability, they don't want to be tied to the ticket, in some cases the fans are trying to resell the tickets themselves, although this is a fool's errand in today's bot culture.

But, once again, all the blame is put upon the scalpers. The bad guys. Who are giving people what they want, the ability to pay fair price to attend shows. The scalpers are not going away as long as tickets are underpriced. And now that Ticketmaster has integrated the scalped tickets with the primary scalping has been institutionalized.

You might see this as an inability to stop technology, but really it's nothing of the sort. This is all about making MONEY!

Will there be a Congressional hearing? Will there be laws? Elected officials can't understand the ticketing business and the laws always get it wrong.

Since Live Nation is a public company will heads roll?

Possibly, look what happened after the #MeToo movement.

Furthermore, especially in this era where experience is king, don't expect fans to hold back, they want to go.

So I don't expect any real change.

But there could be.

[lefsetz.com]

I suspect that the bits I've highlighted above are the relevant ones ......... ?

The rest of it is 'interesting' perhaps, but at the core I think lies the fact that 'the money lies in the ticketing' these days. In that respect, I also think this (the below) is an important (albeit very unpalatable) fact of life today as regards this discussion .......

Ticketmaster has integrated the scalped tickets with the primary; scalping has thus been 'institutionalized'.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-09-21 06:13 by paulywaul.

Here in the US it is beginning to look like there could be Federal regulation of Ticketmaster because of the report of how Ticketmaster is in Cahoots with the scalpers (I:E Ticketmaster them selves ) How absurd and ridiculous it has become to attend in North America any sporting event or Concert and have to be robbed blind for an evening of entertainment and everyone my self included votes with there wallet and my wallet is closed to being ripped off by this nonsense . Guess what -I don't miss it because I like my money better to be able to buy goods and services instead .Ha Ha Ticketmaster enjoy being regulated