Brilliant, love it. The story that won't die, and quite rightly so .... !

[www.theguardian.com]


Ticket resale sites could face legal curbs as part of push to beat touts

Lords propose change to digital economy bill that would force sites to get permission to resell tickets from event organisers

Websites that let touts resell tickets could be prosecuted unless they have permission from event organisers, under proposals aimed at curbing the secondary ticketing market.

Members of the House of Lords have put forward amendments to the digital economy bill that campaigners say would outlaw much of the controversial ticket resale industry, dominated by Viagogo, StubHub, Seatwave and GetMeIn.

Among them is a rule that would stop anyone reselling a ticket unless they have been authorised in writing to do so by the event organiser. The measure would deal a major blow to touts who harvest tickets in bulk to resell at vast markups, often despite opposition from artists. The sites also take a cut of the profits from a sale.

The offence would carry a maximum fine of £5,000 and this could wipe out the potential profit on resale of a ticket if it is rigidly enforced.

Singers Adele and Ed Sheeran and the producers of hit musical Hamilton have taken steps to prevent their tickets being resold at inflated prices but have seen touts circumvent their efforts with relative ease.

Proposed amendments to the digital economy bill also include other measures aimed at some of the more controversial methods employed by ticket touts.

They include prison terms of up to a year for the use of bot software to harvest tickets – a measure proposed by Conservative MP Nigel Adams – and a provision allowing promoters to take legal action against touts.

This would allow for court action to remove tickets advertised for sale if the seller does not provide sufficient information about the ticket, while touts could also be forced to hand over any profit. Another amendment would see internet service providers fined if they do not withdraw internet access from touts who breach consumer laws.

Touts would also face more stringent requirements to publish their name and company details, under proposals to strengthen the Consumer Rights Act. The Competition and Markets Authority is already looking into whether touts are complying with existing provisions of the act, such as the requirement to publish the seat location and its face value.

The proposals, to be debated in the House of Lords this week, follow a string of revelations about the grip on tickets for in-demand events wielded by the UK’s most powerful touts.

The amendment banning unauthorised ticket resale was tabled by Liberal Democrat peers Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Foster of Bath and is likely to be refined as the bill goes through parliament.

Security consultant and ticketing expert Reg Walker said it could restore the power over ticket distribution to the music and sports industries.

“It will go a long way to curbing the activities of the secondary ticket market which prevents fans from buying tickets at face value, artificially inflates prices, and makes music and sporting events unaffordable to a whole strata of society,” Walker said.

“It will outlaw a large part of the secondary market that currently works to the detriment of consumers.”

But he warned that the law would have to cover overseas firms, given that Viagogo is registered in Switzerland and StubHub, owned by eBay, is registered in Luxembourg.

Labour MP Sharon Hodgson said: “There is far more the government can be doing to support genuine fans and stop touts, and I hope the government responds constructively when debating these amendments.”

A spokesperson for anti-tout campaign group FanFair Alliance said: “This is a broken market, and UK audiences are the ones paying the price,” adding that “the status quo has become untenable”.

The group said the music industry needed “a suite of measures to tackle this scourge above and beyond action to stop the misuse of bots to bulk buy and harvest tickets”.

But it warned of unintended consequences if firms were banned from unauthorised resale even at face value or below. Some ticket firms are understood to be concerned that Ticketmaster could corner the market for authorised resale, thanks to the power wielded by its parent company LiveNation, the world’s largest live entertainment firm.


As I said in the title of this thread, little by little, slowly but surely, 'the end might possibly be coming into sight'. I for one will welcome it enormously, I know others that frequent this message board - and this thread in particular - think otherwise, but then little do I care for their viewpoint, as do they care little for mine !

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

YAY .....

Progress !

[www.theguardian.com]

Viagogo ticket rip-off concerns prompt May to promise crackdown

Prime minister vows to fix ticket resale market after a surge in complaints against resellers over inflated prices and refunds

Ticket resale sites such as Viagogo and StubHub are facing a crackdown, after the prime minister said they cause problems for genuine fans and vowed to fix markets that do not work for consumers.

Theresa May said the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) would shortly address secondary ticketing firms, which have been accused of flouting consumer laws and inflating ticket prices for fans.

Her intervention at prime minister’s questions on Wednesday came in response to Conservative MP Nigel Adams, who asked what the government would do about controversial website Viagogo reselling tickets for a cancer charity gig by Ed Sheeran and charging theatregoers up to £5,000 to see the popular musical Hamilton.

He said Viagogo’s actions, both revealed by the Guardian, were “unfair and not indicative of a market that works for everyone”, asking the prime minister to “ensure genuine fans are not fleeced by ticket touts and rogues”.

May said: “He [Adams] is absolutely right to identify circumstances where websites are acting in that way and causing those problems for people who genuinely believe that they are able to buy tickets for what they wish to attend.”

She added: “As a government we are looking at where markets are not working in the interests of consumers.”

The government has yet to respond to a review by Prof Michael Waterson, who recommended that a public body such as National Trading Standards carry out an investigation into the ticket resale industry’s compliance with the law. The prime minister said the DCMS was now preparing a response to the Waterson review.

FanFair Alliance, a music industry group which campaigns for reform of ticketing, said: “Prof Michael Waterson’s recommendations on secondary ticketing were published over nine months ago, so it is heartening to hear from the prime minister that a DCMS response is now imminent – as well as a resolve to fix markets that are not working in favour of consumers.

“This is clearly the case with ticket resale, where audiences continue to be manipulated and fleeced on an industrial scale.”

At least one MP has demanded an explanation from Viagogo’s founder, Eric Baker, over a separate incident in which dozens of fans were overcharged by hundreds of pounds because of what the company called a “glitch”.

Antoinette Sandbach, Conservative MP for Eddisbury, said she had written to Baker and would share the reply with members of the Facebook Victim of Viagogo group set up to demand refunds from the Switzerland-based company.

Viagogo has so far repaid almost £40,000 over the “glitch”, which affected tickets for multiple events in several countries, but members of the group say more than £25,000 is still outstanding.

The prime minister’s interest in secondary ticketing firms comes after mounting pressure on companies such as Viagogo, GetMeIn, Seatwave and StubHub.

Executives from Viagogo and Ticketmaster are expected to be summoned later this month to face questions from the culture, media and sport select committee as part of its inquiry into “ticket abuse” continues.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Fingers crossed

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

Good news I really hope they come down real hard on these vultures some gargantuan financial fines,prison sentences and 500 lashings at dawn would be most welcome.

Nate



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-03-03 12:44 by Nate.

the only thing that will help is artists taking action and selling tickets exclusively on their on websites and taking legal actions against professional resellers.
Another helpful way is not to do reserved seating shows anymore which makes it impossible for resellers to guaranty good seats

[www.wrongmog.com]

Ticket reseller sites illegally inflating prices by up to 500% ...
Investigation by consumer rights groups finds dodgy pricing practices,
False claims and illegal markups were widespread

Australian consumer organisation Choice has found dodgy pricing practices, false claims, illegal markups and a lack of consumer protection in the ticket scalping industry in Australia, with resale sites including ViaGogo and Ticketmaster Resale among the biggest offenders.

In a week that has two of the world’s biggest artists playing sold-out shows around the country, Justin Bieber and Adele, the Choice investigation found that when it came to the “secondary ticketing” industry , the inconsistent consumer laws across Australia were not working.

It found grandstand tickets to Bieber’s upcoming stadium show in Brisbane were being illegally sold for $1,150 – a 514% increase on their original $187.15 price. In Queensland, legislation permits mark-ups of more than 10% on original sale value for tickets to Stadium Queensland venues, with fines of $2,438 for sellers and $609.50 for buyers.

“A lot of consumers would be unaware of that [fine],” Choice’s head of media, Tom Godfrey, told Guardian Australia. “So it’s really important that we raise awareness around this.”

The Choice investigation, which was referred this week to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC), follows from Guardian Australia’s reporting last year, which found that Ticketmaster Resale was making at least 25% on each ticket sold through buyer and seller fees. The higher the markup of the scalped ticket, the more the company had to gain. Choice also found that ViaGogo and Ticketmaster Resale were taking between 21% to 28% of each sale in fees and charges.

In the case of tours operated by Live Nation Entertainment, which owns both Ticketmaster and Ticketmaster Resale, the global company stood to profit not only from initial sales that were being operated through Ticketmaster, but Ticketmaster Resale transactions too.

Responding to this claim in November, Live Nation issued a statement: “Live Nation Australia [the Australian branch of the global company] does not participate in any revenues or fees that may be generated through the Ticketmaster Resale program.” They did not comment on whether the global company stood to gain from those revenues.

Ticketmaster refused to comment specifically on that revenue, but a spokeswoman told Guardian Australia that Ticketmaster Resale is “a safe and secure marketplace”. “Ticketmaster is 100% committed to transparency and is continually reviewing its practices and platforms to ensure it is fully compliant with applicable regulations,” she said.

Referring to the Queensland laws that Choice found had been breached, she said the restrictions were made clear to sellers in the listing process, but did not mention whether the same was true for buyers: “If instances of non-compliance by sellers are highlighted to us we take appropriate action to ensure the sellers address those issues,” she said. “We see ourselves as the leading example of good practice in the ticketing market.”

Related: Viagogo accused of sitting on refunds after overcharging for tickets

ViaGogo was the “worst offender” according to Choice; a Facebook group called Victim of Viagogo has accrued 105 members in 11 countries. The Swiss company – which, like Ticketmaster Resale and other secondary ticketing sites, is often promoted via ad words to be among the first ticket listings on Google – engages in illegal “drip-pricing”, adding up to 25% hidden fees and charges between the ticket selection and the online checkout.

“It’s incredibly frustrating for people,” Godfrey said. “You see an advertised price, you go online to redeem that, and then suddenly you’re paying more. It’s illegal – and that’s why we’ve referred that on to the regulator.”

ViaGogo also claims they are selling the “cheapest” available tickets, which often is not true. Ad word-promoted listings on ViaGogo and Ticketmaster Resale often go up within minutes of a tour going on sale, before the cheaper primary tickets have even sold out; this is thanks in part to the use of “bots” which are able to snap up hundreds of tickets faster than any human consumer. In September Xenophon revived his fight to get the federal government to legislate against these bots.

“For a lot of people who don’t realise there is a difference between the official seller and the official reseller you can get into all sorts of problems,” Godfrey said. Viagogo refused to comment to Choice.

Ticketmaster Resale is the resale branch of primary ticket seller Ticketmaster, which capitalises on that company’s trusted brand; for their part, Ticketmaster themselves warn that “unauthorised tickets may face entry problems”.

Related: Adele's Australian tour: tickets offered by resale sites for $5,000 as they go on official sale

While both ViaGogo and Ticketmaster Resale claim to offer refunds if the purchased ticket is not accepted at the venue, Choice found that getting the money back isn’t easy.

In the case of ViaGogo, you have only 48 hours to call a UK number before your application for a refund is void. In the case of Ticketmaster Resale, the “buyers agreement” contains a clause which says: “All queries relating to tickets purchased via the website must be directed to Ticketmaster Resale … rather than to the relevant venue, promoter or producer.”

If you contact the venue, promoter or producer first, “then you are not entitled to receive any refund under the Ticketmaster Guarantee”.

Ticketmaster Resale told Guardian Australia that the rate of replacements and refunds on transactions was only 1%, and that “all customers are protected by a money back guarantee”. They did not comment specifically on the clause.

Godfrey said discouraging the users to go directly to the venue was “very bad advice ... We would advise anyone who is buying a ticket to contact the venue directly, and certainly to verify who the original ticket seller is.” The findings from Choice have been referred to the ACCC, in the hopes that it will lead to fines, federal court action and ultimately market change. “Consumers should have a right to resale tickets they can’t use, but we need to ensure that consumers are on safe grounds,” Godfrey said. “And what we’ve seen following this investigation is that not always the case ... This is the beginning of a process. But certainly anyone who has used a RS site hand has found themselves paying more, or had their ticket cancelled at the door, will be delighted that this action is underway."

Ticketmaster Resale and ViaGogo have been contacted for comment.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-03-08 18:42 by schillid.

Quote
Nate
Good news I really hope they come down real hard on these vultures some gargantuan financial fines,prison sentences and 500 lashings at dawn would be most welcome.

Nate

Wee bit harsh there Nate but I agree with all of this apart from the 500 lashings...

Another thing worthy of a mention is Ticketmaster's ownership of both Getmein and Seatwave. An absolutely ludicrous and blatant conflict of interest. A good first step is the enforced sale of these 2 companies as there is little doubt that huge numbers of Top Tickets are being diverted from Primary Seller to Secondary Seller without ever going on public sale in the first place.

Now I understand free market economics and have no problem with someone being well rewarded for innovation or invention but this is neither - it's bare faced exploitation, bordering on Fraud.

I would like to see these companies destroyed and I mean really destroyed to the extent that they wish they had never started,of course that won't happen because there are rarely people in positions of power with the ability to do something that actually have the balls to stand up for what's right.

I hate injustice and really don't like to see people getting ripped off.
Personally I consider these vultures to be enemies and I don't like to forgive enemies I want to see them destroyed.

I will say that I love capitalism and I'm all for people being successful in business and making tons of money but it should and can be done in a way that doesn't leave a bad taste in the mouth.

As for the 500 lashings at dawn I've just increased it to 1000

Nate



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-03-08 21:15 by Nate.

Not before time...

[www.theguardian.com]

Rob Davies
Friday 10 March 2017 19.15 GMT

Ticket touts face unlimited fines for using 'bots' to buy in bulk
Exclusive: Package of measures designed to curb growing power of ‘secondary ticketing’ industry and protect fans

Touts who use computer software to harvest concert tickets in bulk and resell them at vast mark-ups face unlimited fines as part of a crackdown on highly profitable resale sites such as Viagogo, StubHub and GetMeIn.

The Department of Culture, Media and Sport will announce a package of measures to curb the growing power of the so-called “secondary ticketing” industry, which now regularly offers tickets at huge mark-ups, even before they are available to the general public.

Proposals will include a new criminal offence for the use of “bots” – software that helps touts bypass limits on the number of tickets one person can buy.

National Trading Standards will also be handed a ringfenced pot of money to fund efforts to stop fans being ripped off or shut out of the most in-demand events.

The government is taking action following outrage that face-value tickets to see artists such as Adele and Ed Sheeran are selling out in minutes, only to appear for thousands of pounds on resale websites such as Viagogo, StubHub and GetMeIn moments later.

These websites make money by allowing touts, as well as genuine fans, to resell tickets in return for a cut of anything up to 25% of the sale price.

As well as criminalising bots, ministers at DCMS will accept in full the recommendations of a review by Professor Michael Waterson, who published proposals to tackle rogue ticket traders last year.

These include demanding that ticket firms to step up their own efforts to prevent the use of bots and to report any attacks on their systems by touts trying to harvest tickets.

While primary ticket firms such as Ticketmaster say they are doing their utmost to stop bot users, the company also owns secondary sites, such as GetMeIn and Seatwave, which have close relationships with major touts and take a cut of their profits.

Ministers will also propose stronger enforcement of consumer rights laws, amid concern that tickets are being sold with no information about the seat location or the name of the seller, in contravention of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Efforts to step up scrutiny of firms’ adherence to consumer laws is also aimed at sites that sell tickets whose terms and conditions specifically ban resale, meaning fans are turned away at the door.

Labour MP Sharon Hodgson, a long-time campaigner for ticket reform, welcomed measures she said would address a “broken and parasitic market”.

“These measures will ensure that fans are protected, but there still remains work to do to make sure that these measures are enforced properly so touts do not circumvent them as this is going to very soon be the law of the land.”

The DCMS proposals will be informed by an ongoing review by the Competition and Market Authority into secondary ticketing firms’ compliance with the law.

Ticket resale sites will face even harsher measures if they do not prove that they are taking sufficient steps to address the power of touts, the Guardian understands.

Theresa May promised to take action on ticket resale at Prime Minister’s Questions after Nigel Adams MP urged her to help “ensure genuine fans are not fleeced by ticket touts and rogues”.

Increased scrutiny of secondary ticketing follows revelations in the Guardian about the actions of well-known ticket resale sites and the touts who have used them to build multi-million pound businesses by harvesting tickets in bulk.

Viagogo, which is based in Switzerland but has a large office in Cannon Street, London, was recently accused of “moral repugnance” for seeking to profit from the resale of tickets for an Ed Sheeran gig at the Royal Albert Hall in aid of the Teenage Cancer Trust.

Ticketmaster, which owns resale sites GetMeIn and Seatwave, has also come under the spotlight after it emerged that a man previously convicted of a £2m ticket fraud was using the sites to sell thousands of pounds’ worth of tickets.

The identities of some of the UK’s most powerful touts were revealed last year after a whistleblower passed the Guardian information revealing the vast rewards on offer to those with a grip on access to the UK’s most popular events.

Many have since rebranded their companies amid mounting outrage about their business models.

While music concerts have proved the most lucrative targets for touts, high-profile theatre productions such as critically acclaimed hip-hop musical Hamilton, as well as Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, have also been targeted.

As I've been saying for god knows how long ... the UK government has had to be dragged kicking and screaming all the way on this. But as the 'problem' of a runaway secondary market that hoovers up tickets on an industrial scale and pursues practices that are wholly to the detriment of the public (not to mention the public 'outrage' itself) has grown exponentially over the years, we might now finally be getting somewhere ...

Interesting term that features in one of the relatively recent articles: 'moral repugnance' !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Viagogo snubs MPs' inquiry into online ticket reselling

[www.theguardian.com]

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Boy o boy, good ole Viagogo is doin' a grand job of diggin' itself into a grave !! Love it ... hope they get the f***in' book thrown at 'em !!

This is soooooooooooo long overdue, but at least FINALLY somethin' seems to be happenin' and the government has at last (albeit probably reluctantly - and most certainly extremely belatedly) woken up to the fact that this entire 'secondary market industry' needs some form of intervention, having been allowed to evolve into the grotesque monster that it is today !

We'll see wot 'appens !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Viagogo snubs MPs' inquiry into online ticket reselling

Switzerland-based firm angers MPs by failing to send an executive to give evidence before select committee into secondary ticketing

Controversial ticket resale website Viagogo was accused of “naked mis-selling and fraud”, as it delivered an almost unprecedented snub to MPs by failing to show up for a select committee hearing.

MPs on the department for culture, media and sport committee heard allegations from music industry figures and fans about Viagogo, which allows touts to advertise tickets for huge mark-ups even before they go on sale, in return for a cut of up to 25% of the selling price.

Internet giant Google, already under fire for placing adverts next to extremist content, now looks likely to be dragged into the inquiry, after it was accused of “colluding” with Viagogo by advertising the reseller at the top of search results.

MPs were told that all four major ticket resale sites – Viagogo, StubHub, GetMeIn and Seatwave – are routinely flouting laws designed to protect consumers.

But MPs and witnesses reserved their sharpest barbs for Viagogo, which was summoned to give evidence after revelations about the company in The Guardian.

Committee chair Damian Collins MP said Viagogo’s absence showed “contempt for parliament”, while Nigel Huddleston MP accused the company of a “lack of respect [...] for the British public.”

Among Viagogo’s written excuses for not attending, MPs said, was a claim that the company does not sell tickets, and only allows others to do so.

The Switzerland-based company also said it did not have “adequate representation” in the UK, even though it has a large office on London’s Cannon Street.

It is extremely rare for company executives to refuse to appear at a select committee inquiry.

Irene Rosenfeld, then boss of food group Kraft, provoked fury when she twice ignored an invitation to face MPs over the US company’s controversial £12bn takeover of Cadbury’s.

But unlike Viagogo, Kraft did at least send three middle-ranking executives to face politicians’ questions.

In Viagogo’s absence, the company was accused of “naked mis-selling and fraud” by John Nicolson MP. He accused the company was “lying to the public”.

Huddleston said the evidence suggested Viagogo’s business was “smelling of exploitation and deception at every level”.

Nigel Adams MP said Viagogo “makes Stan Flashman look like Mother Teresa”. Flashman was a renowned tout who claimed he could even get tickets for the Queen’s Garden Parties.

The committee heard that fans who buy from Viagogo, sometimes for thousands of pounds, are being turned away from venues and events that ban resale.

Keith Kenny, tickets director for hip-hop musical Hamilton, told the committee he had written to Viagogo executive Ed Parkinson urging him not to resell tickets, but received no response.

Tickets for Hamilton appeared on Viagogo for more than £2500 moments after going on sale and are now changing hands for even more.

Nigel Adams MP said: “Taking thousands of pounds off people, knowing they are not going to be able to get in, is effectively selling a product that never existed.”

Google was also accused of “colluding” with Viagogo, because the company usually appears at the top of search results for major events.

The company is understood to be reviewing the situation.

“We have a set of strict policies which govern what ads we do and do not allow on Google,” said a spokesperson.

“We do not allow fraudulent or misrepresentative ads, and when we discover ads that break our policies, we quickly take action.”

Stuart Galbraith, who promotes artists including Ed Sheeran, said this is because Viagogo pays to appear at the top of the Google’s paid-for sponsored rankings. “I can pay 50p per click, they can pay £10,” he said.

Google did not return a request for comment.

Galbraith and Stuart Camp, Ed Sheeran’s manager, said all four major ticket resale sites routinely breach the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which says resold tickets must show data such as face value and the ticket’s exact location.

Galbraith said the companies omit this information because it would allow promoters and venues to cancel resold tickets.

The Competition and Markets Authority is currently investigating whether companies are complying with the legislation.

And the House of Lords was on Tuesday evening due to debate plans that include outlawing “bots” - the automated software used by some touts to harvest tickets in bulk.

One witness, SeeTickets boss Rob Wilmshurst, told MPs that bots were a “red herring” because touts have many ways to get hold of tickets.

Asked if he would instead support a cap on the price of resold tickets, for example at face value plus 10%, Galbraith said: “We would be happy with that”.

The committee also heard from Claire Turnham, who started a Victim of Viagogo campaign group after she and dozens of other fans were overcharged due to what the company said was a “glitch”.

She said Viagogo did not make its prices clear, with hundreds of pounds in booking fees applied at the last minute.

Turnham also pointed to messages on the website telling customers that they are running out of time to buy tickets and must hurry up or face disappointment.

Huddleston , who used to work for Google, said Viagogo was “one of the most psychologically manipulative websites I’ve ever seen”.

Viagogo declined to comment.

MPs summoned Viagogo after revelations in The Guardian, including that it resold tickets for an Ed Sheeran gig in aid of the Teenage Cancer Trust.

It was also accused of trying to manipulate online reviews of its service in the light of negative publicity.

The Guardian has previously revealed the names of some of the UK’s most powerful ticket touts, who use sites including Viagogo to make vast profits.



The more interesting bits of this Guardian article I've either put into large font, or bold, or red ...

Interesting reading, but I hope that after so long, something positive comes out of this particular 'enquiry', seeing as there have been countless such enquiries to date and they've all had precisely ZERO effect on the actual behaviour of these a**hole companies ! They just continue to flout their LEGAL obligations under the Consumer Rights Act, it actually beggars belief how bloody OVERTLY they do it and how they continue to get way with it !

Well with luck ... not for much longer !

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

[www.bbc.co.uk]

The woman taking on ticket website Viagogo

When Claire Turnham tried to buy Ed Sheeran tickets for her son's 16th birthday, she thought it was going to be an "amazing" family trip.

Instead, she says she was overcharged by £1,150, and the episode has led her to take up a campaign against Viagogo, the secondary ticket website she used.

She set up the Victims of Viagogo group on Facebook to seek refunds for others who feel they have been "ripped off".

"It's affecting people worldwide and it's growing all the time," she said.

Ms Turnham gave her experiences to a House of Commons select committee hearing about ticket abuse on Tuesday.

She said she's been contacted by 425 people from 26 countries in the past six weeks who were charged more than they expected and have had "very frustrating" experiences trying to get refunds.

Birthday surprise backfired

Ms Turnham tried to buy four tickets to see Ed Sheeran in Dublin on 12 April - her son's 16th birthday.

"I have four children - three of them are massive Ed Sheeran fans," she said. "As their mother I thought it would be an amazing experience for us to be able to go to Ed Sheeran together.

"So I thought, as a surprise for them, that I would try and get tickets. The last time I bought tickets was 10 years ago to Rod Stewart. I'm not familiar with the secondary market - or I wasn't until six weeks ago."

She looked for tickets on 31 January, when pre-sale tickets for the gig were made available, but had no joy going through Sheeran's official site and Ticketmaster.

"I went back onto Google and I found Viagogo at the top of the listings, which said, 'We have tickets today, official site', and I just went with that."

Viagogo offers tickets for resale, often at inflated prices. The company declined to send a representative to the select committee hearing and hasn't responded to requests for comment from BBC News.

'I didn't have the money'

Ms Turnham continued: "I knew from the research I'd done that the face value of the ticket was likely to be between £50-£75, so when I saw four tickets for £263 I did a quick mental calculation and thought that sounded about right and I pushed 'buy'.

"I didn't know through any of that process that that price was actually going to be per ticket, and that there were going to be fees on top of that. So actually what it ended up costing was £1,421.

"The day after this, my rent was due and I knew I didn't have £1,421 in my account."

The first transaction failed - but Ms Turnham says Viagogo then processed the transaction a different way and she was charged the full amount.

She received a refund after much persistence and taking her story to the media. "When I was offered my refund I was very glad of it," she said.

"But I started to become aware that other people had become affected and weren't receiving refunds so I started trying to help them... People are contacting me all the time and they're very, very distressed."

She has posted photos on social media of people who have had similar experiences of being charged more than they expected when buying tickets to see stars like Craig David, Bruno Mars, Lady Gaga and Adele.

'You have to be strong'

Many people don't have the energy to keep chasing refunds, she said.

"You have to be able to be incredibly strong to be able to do this because like any other form of abuse it relies on people being silenced and it relies on people being isolated."

Viagogo had a seat at the select committee hearing - but it remained empty.

Nigel Huddleston MP said Viagogo had written to the committee explaining their absence by saying "we do not sell tickets", but instead is a platform for handling tickets.

But the company was roundly criticised by MPs and other expert witnesses for its practises, with Nigel Adams MP saying it made "Stan Flashman look like Mother Theresa".

Ed Sheeran's manager Stuart Camp and gig promoter Stuart Galbraith did give evidence and talked about a Sheeran show at the O2 arena in London in June.

Emotional and physical stress

They said they had written to the four main secondary ticket websites - Viagogo, Seatwave, GetMeIn and StubHub - in advance, asking them not to list any tickets for the show because they would cancel any that were found to have been resold, and fans would not be let in.

"All four sites ignored our requests and all four sites listed tickets at inflated prices, knowing that it's our intention to cancel those tickets and not admit their customers."

Ms Turnham said the threat of not getting in added extra stress to fans who already paid over the odds.

"It's causing not only financial effects but serious emotional and physical effects too," she said.

"As well as all the money issues and how they're actually going to pay for that, it's whether or not their ticket is actually going to be valid. As we've heard today, these people who've paid for Ed Sheeran tickets, at these excessive prices, actually may not be able to get in."

Mr Galbraith offered advice for fans looking for tickets: "Go to the source. If you're buying an Ed Sheeran ticket, go to edsheeran.com because from there you will only be directed to official outlets. The worst thing you could do would be to Google search."

He also pointed fans toward a new guide to ticket-buying published by the Fair Fan Alliance.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-03-22 10:33 by paulywaul.

People need to avoid these secondary sites. Selling tickets before they have them is wrong. Also, tickets going right to these secondary sellers, whether being bought up by or owned by original ticket distributer, is just wrong and needs to end.

However, Ms turnhill is to blame regarding her situation. She didn't look at her "cart" and the total? Fees tacked on tickets have been the unfortunate norm for decades now too. She comes across as a poor consumer.

Quote
MingSubu
People need to avoid these secondary sites. Selling tickets before they have them is wrong. Also, tickets going right to these secondary sellers, whether being bought up by or owned by original ticket distributer, is just wrong and needs to end.

However, Ms turnhill is to blame regarding her situation. She didn't look at her "cart" and the total? Fees tacked on tickets have been the unfortunate norm for decades now too. She comes across as a poor consumer.

I completely agree, she comes across as hopelessly naïve and plain silly in fact ... a very 'poor consumer' indeed. But I think that's one of the problems that this entire (entertainment) industry faces today. The secondary market phenomenon has grown to such huge proportions that your average consumer who isn't a regular gig goer is often completely unaware that there are primary ticket vendors, and then there are these secondary sites. They can't tell the difference. It's just ignorance, because the lines between the primaries and the 'secondaries' have become increasingly blurred over recent years, other than to those who are reasonably 'switched on' !

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Quote
paulywaul

Quote
MingSubu
People need to avoid these secondary sites. Selling tickets before they have them is wrong. Also, tickets going right to these secondary sellers, whether being bought up by or owned by original ticket distributer, is just wrong and needs to end.

However, Ms turnhill is to blame regarding her situation. She didn't look at her "cart" and the total? Fees tacked on tickets have been the unfortunate norm for decades now too. She comes across as a poor consumer.

I completely agree, she comes across as hopelessly naïve and plain silly in fact ... a very 'poor consumer' indeed. But I think that's one of the problems that this entire (entertainment) industry faces today. The secondary market phenomenon has grown to such huge proportions that your average consumer who isn't a regular gig goer is often completely unaware that there are primary ticket vendors, and then there are these secondary sites. They can't tell the difference. It's just ignorance, because the lines between the primaries and the 'secondaries' have become increasingly blurred over recent years, other than to those who are reasonably 'switched on' !

Lets be kind and say she was naive but tbh if I hadn't bought tickets for 10 years and was perhaps ignorant of Google Adwords I too would click on the result at top of the page!

Quote
exhpart

Quote
paulywaul

Quote
MingSubu
People need to avoid these secondary sites. Selling tickets before they have them is wrong. Also, tickets going right to these secondary sellers, whether being bought up by or owned by original ticket distributer, is just wrong and needs to end.

However, Ms turnhill is to blame regarding her situation. She didn't look at her "cart" and the total? Fees tacked on tickets have been the unfortunate norm for decades now too. She comes across as a poor consumer.

I completely agree, she comes across as hopelessly naïve and plain silly in fact ... a very 'poor consumer' indeed. But I think that's one of the problems that this entire (entertainment) industry faces today. The secondary market phenomenon has grown to such huge proportions that your average consumer who isn't a regular gig goer is often completely unaware that there are primary ticket vendors, and then there are these secondary sites. They can't tell the difference. It's just ignorance, because the lines between the primaries and the 'secondaries' have become increasingly blurred over recent years, other than to those who are reasonably 'switched on' !

Lets be kind and say she was naive but tbh if I hadn't bought tickets for 10 years and was perhaps ignorant of Google Adwords I too would click on the result at top of the page!

OK ... DEAL !! It's 'be kind' Wednesday !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Yet more about VIAGOGO ...the a**hole scalpers of all time !!

[www.theguardian.com]


Viagogo's shady reputation grows as it shuns critics

Elusive company that snubbed MPs runs its multimillion ticket resale empire from a small office in a business park in Limerick, Ireland

When controversial ticket reselling website Viagogo failed to show up for a select committee hearing this week, furious MPs were left wondering where to find the elusive company.

The answer is in a nondescript office in a business park on the outskirts of the Irish city of Limerick.

This is Viagogo’s European operations centre, where more than a hundred staff work at the hub of its multi-billion pound ticket resale empire.

Executives here are just as wary of the limelight as they were of parliamentary scrutiny. When the Guardian asked the company to respond to questions, we were politely asked to leave.

Later, an employee was speaking to our reporter outside the office when a manager appeared, stopped the conversation, and ushered him inside. Minutes later the staff member, who was actually very positive about working for the company, was whisked away from the building in the back of a taxi.

Viagogo’s shyness comes as no surprise given its refusal to face the music in parliament.

In its absence, MPs on the department for culture, media and sport select committee accused the company – which takes a cut of up to 25% from reselling tickets, often provided by supertouts, and often before ordinary fans even have a chance to buy – of “naked mis-selling and fraud”, “lying to the public” and “contempt for parliament”.

If Viagogo was embarrassed by the accusations, it didn’t show. Within 24 hours the company was up to its old tricks again.

Some 11,000 miles away in Auckland, New Zealand, wheelchair-bound Maiz Marshall-Amai was learning all about Viagogo’s business model.

She had bought tickets to see British popstar Adele, picking seats in a wheelchair-accessible section near the stage.

Instead, the tickets were up in the gallery, completely inaccessible to wheelchair users.

In a poignant tribute to Adele, Marshall-Amai’s friend Letitia Butler released a video riffing on one of the star’s biggest hits.

“Hello from the outside,” she sang. “Your biggest fans can’t get inside.”

The Auckland episode extends a string of disturbing revelations about a company, whose founder Eric Baker has sought to portray himself as a consumer champion, protecting fans from touts and ticket fraud.

Critics of the site suggest Viagogo is anything but a friend of the consumer.

The site has been accused of “moral repugnance” for seeking to profit from events in aid of cancer charities by popstar Ed Sheeran and comedian Peter Kay.

It has been criticised for providing a conduit for touts to sell tickets at huge mark-ups to fans despite knowing that they might be denied entry.

It was also faced allegations of breaching consumer rights laws and withholding refunds from overcharged customers.

On the face of it, Viagogo should be more than capable of addressing the allegations levelled against it. Indeed, the company claims that none of the criticisms are valid because it does not even sell tickets – it just provides the platform.

This multi-million dollar enterprise is technically based in Geneva, Switzerland, but also has a UK subsidiary called VGL Services with company’s address listed as Cannon Street in London’s financial district.

When the Guardian visited this office last year, Viagogo’s presence was disguised, a false name listed on hoardings in the foyer displaying the building’s tenants.

A second visit this week revealed that the company has packed up and left.

People who work in the building say the company moved out in January, leaving no forwarding address.

Viagogo’s abrupt departure came just a month after the Competition and Markets Authority launched a probe into whether secondary ticketing companies are complying with consumer law.

The company’s exit will be a bitter blow for members of the Facebook Victim of Viagogo group.

Claire Turnham, who gave evidence at the select committee, set up the group after she was overcharged by hundreds of pounds for an Ed Sheeran gig.

She told MPs of group members who had been left physically sick with worry or struggling to make ends meet after buying tickets through Viagogo.

Some of those who made the most noise on social media received refunds.

Others were invited to relist their tickets on Viagogo instead, meaning the company would take a cut of the sale price.

Still more victims were unable to elicit any response from the company at all.

One group member, Rachael Ravenhill, did find a way of contacting Viagogo though. She started an online petition calling on the firm to reimburse victims.

She swiftly received a call from the company, threatening her with legal action for using their logo in the petition.

Many of the group have sent “letters before action”, a prelude to a suit in the small claims court, to the Cannon Street office.

Where those letters are now is anybody’s guess.

The Viagogo empire is owned by founder Eric Baker’s private company, Pugnacious Endeavors, located in Delaware, the US state famed for corporate secrecy and tax haven status.

It seems unlikely that any correspondence sent to Viagogo will be sent on to Delaware.

If MPs really want to speak to Viagogo’s bosses, they could send their invitation to Limerick. Any executives based in the city could easily make their way to London via a £35 Ryanair flight from nearby Shannon airport.

But the company’s record of failing to answer questions from disappointed customers, politicians and the media, suggests it is unlikely to take the opportunity.

Viagogo declined a request for comment.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Interesting article featuring Paul McGinnis (U2s former manager) Re: Ticket Selling Issues

I'm thinking that it's at least partially on topic.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Really interesting article, thanks for posting.

It does mention that there's an investigation/inquiry in progress at the moment (here in the UK), because it's finally been recognised that the functioning of the secondary market is by and large ALWAYS to the detriment of the ticket buying public/consumer. What exactly emerges from this particular inquiry remains to be seen however. If it's anything like what has resulted from countless previous such 'looks at' the secondary market phenomenon, it will probably be some minor piece of legislation or piddly little further tweak to the consumer rights act that will do absolutely nothing to force the likes of Seatwave, Getmein, Stubhub, & Viagogo to modify their fundamental modus operandi or to deter those who currently collude with them to stop doing so ....

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-03-29 00:52 by paulywaul.

Seems like a lucrative business, ticket scalping. Maybe it should be taught at colleges around the world? So the kids know how to make a dollar or two on the streets? Why not? Ticket scalping may be something good?

"Roger Daltrey letter to The Times on ticket touts + @TeenageCancer. Taking advantage of the Trust’s work is immoral"



[twitter.com]

The Who singer Roger Daltrey wants to outlaw 'immoral' ticket touts who he says are damaging the music industry, fans and charities

So here's the latest on this sad ongoing saga ....

[www.theguardian.com]

Here's the text of the article .....


Share your horror stories to help end ticket rip-offs

Consumer group Which? launches a worldwide survey into secondary resale sites and urges any victims to take part

Music, theatre and sports fans are being asked to share horror stories about controversial ticket resale sites as part of a campaign by consumer group Which?

So-called “secondary” ticket websites, such as StubHub, Get Me In! and Viagogo, provide a platform for people with tickets to sell them on, often at a vast mark-up. These secondary sites have come under scrutiny amid concern that they are dominated by professional touts and rip off genuine fans.

Which? will this week launch a consumer survey inviting fans to contribute to a worldwide investigation into the industry via its website. The campaign follows a series of high-profile examples of fans being overcharged, refused entry at the door, or ending up with seats that were far worse than those they had paid for.

Families with children waiting to see the Harry Potter and the Cursed Child play, which secondary sites including Viagogo were advertising for more than £8,000, were among those refused entry earlier this year.

Black Sabbath fans might be a hardier lot than devotees of the schoolboy wizard, but around 200 were left equally disappointed at being refused entry at the O2 arena.

Ed Sheeran fan Claire Turnham set up a Facebook group, Victim of Viagogo, after realising she was just one of many who had been overcharged, sometimes to the tune of thousands of pounds, due to what the company described as a “glitch”. She has ended up devoting hours, for no pay, to help secure £55,000 in refunds for cash-strapped group members, but says many are still waiting for their money back.

Music industry group FanFair Alliance, which has published a ticket-buying guide, said consumers resort to these sites partly due to confusion about the difference between them and primary sites, where tickets are officially released. Some resale platforms muddy the waters by paying Google to appear at the top of search results, the group said. “For the most sought-after events you will inevitably see unauthorised resale sites at the top of Google, above the authorised ticket sellers,” says FanFair Alliance. “It’s deceptive and confusing.”

The group also warned fans that they may be unwittingly funding professional touts, who are able to grab hundreds of tickets on primary sites, ensuring true fans miss out. “The biggest myth is that these are fan-to-fan services. At the most high-demand events the vast majority of tickets appear to be predominantly listed by professional touts,” says FanFair Alliance.

In one example revealed by the Guardian earlier this year, dozens of tickets for major acts were being sold on Seatwave by Michael Mayiger, who was convicted of a £2m ticket fraud in 2012. Consumers would have been totally unaware of this because he was able to disguise his identity by using a nondescript company name.

Viagogo's shady reputation grows as it shuns critics

The Competition and Markets Authority is in the midst of an investigation into whether secondary sites are providing sufficient details about sellers, as well as information about where seats are located and what they cost.

The government has also moved to address problems faced by consumers in the digital economy bill, which was passed last month. Measures include the outlawing of “bots” – software used by some touts to grab primary tickets at the expense of fans – and a requirement for resale sites to provide a unique booking reference and ticket number. The aim is to crack down on fraudulent tickets and help artists and promoters spot the activity of hardcore touts.

But Which? believes there is still work to do. “Time and time again, people are unable to get tickets to events through primary ticketing sites and are, instead, left with no choice but to resort to secondary sites, where they may struggle to find the basic information about the tickets being resold,” says Alex Neill, Which? managing director of home products and services.

“We want to hear people’s experiences of using secondary ticketing sites to help identify what more needs to be done to make things work better for consumers.”

Missing out on a dream

Lucy Lovell had no idea what the difference was between primary and secondary tickets when she decided to treat her rugby-mad family to see England v Italy at Twickenham in the Six Nations tournament.

These tickets are notoriously difficult to get, but the 46-year-old business manager found some advertised on StubHub and decided to buy three for herself, her husband and son Tom, 11.

They were advertised for £250 each, adding up to £900 including fees, despite commanding a face value of just £60 each. “I’d had a bonus from work and although I knew it was expensive, I thought I’d treat the family,” says Lucy. “I wanted a once-in-a-lifetime experience. They took my money, so I thought ‘job done’.”

But two months after she paid – and just three weeks before the big day – StubHub emailed to say the seller was “unable to complete the sale”. Instead, the family was offered tickets 25 rows from the pitch for a 3% discount. “We decided not to go and did get a full refund, but we missed out on the dream. It was a dire, dire experience. You’re not buying a ticket, you’re buying a potential ticket.”

StubHub says it was the “responsibility of the seller to ensure it updates its listing if their ticket is no longer available”, and highlighted its FanProtectGuarantee.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Quote
Stoneage
Seems like a lucrative business, ticket scalping. Maybe it should be taught at colleges around the world? So the kids know how to make a dollar or two on the streets? Why not? Ticket scalping may be something good?

The ticket market is constantly changing, now faster than ever. The lesson plan could be obsolete by the time the semester is over. I do know a few people who put themselves through college this way. I know quite a few former brokers. Why former? Laws, regulations, consumer discipline, better employment? Nope. Max pricing.

Quote
paulywaul
Really interesting article, thanks for posting.

It does mention that there's an investigation/inquiry in progress at the moment (here in the UK), because it's finally been recognised that the functioning of the secondary market is by and large ALWAYS to the detriment of the ticket buying public/consumer.

What a bunch of hyperbole.

The consumer sets the prices. If the consumer doesn't pay, then the price comes down.

Here in Los Angeles where are many major events nightly about 362 days a year, I have friends who go to a few concerts a week, only buying on the secondary and only at low prices. For years most of my concert tickets were only purchased on the secondary market. With the exception of the time I paid $6 for a Bozz Scaggs ticket with a $1 face, I have never overpaid.

Tomorrow's A Perfect Circle show at the Hollywood Bowl is currently at $6.

[www.vividseats.com]

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paulywaul


Lucy Lovell had no idea what the difference was between primary and secondary tickets when she decided to treat her rugby-mad family to see England v Italy at Twickenham in the Six Nations tournament.

The price is different depending on where you buy something. Oh the horror.

Quote

But two months after she paid – and just three weeks before the big day – StubHub emailed to say the seller was “unable to complete the sale”. Instead, the family was offered tickets 25 rows from the pitch for a 3% discount. “We decided not to go and did get a full refund, but we missed out on the dream. It was a dire, dire experience. You’re not buying a ticket, you’re buying a potential ticket.”

This is not exclusive to the secondary market. I have had this happen to me too before, only buying on the primary market. And I know other people it's happened to, too.

Quote
Dan

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paulywaul
Really interesting article, thanks for posting.

It does mention that there's an investigation/inquiry in progress at the moment (here in the UK), because it's finally been recognised that the functioning of the secondary market is by and large ALWAYS to the detriment of the ticket buying public/consumer.

What a bunch of hyperbole.

The consumer sets the prices. If the consumer doesn't pay, then the price comes down.

Here in Los Angeles where are many major events nightly about 362 days a year, I have friends who go to a few concerts a week, only buying on the secondary and only at low prices. For years most of my concert tickets were only purchased on the secondary market. With the exception of the time I paid $6 for a Bozz Scaggs ticket with a $1 face, I have never overpaid.

Tomorrow's A Perfect Circle show at the Hollywood Bowl is currently at $6.

[www.vividseats.com]

What utter garbage ! The bit you don't seem to get is this ... that the ARTIST sets the price ! Not the consumer, the ARTIST !

If the 'event' market was functioning even 'vaguely' normally, and not by contrast as it currently does (i.e. completely riddled with wilful manipulation, gross deceit, and fraudulent malpractice) ... you wouldn't be seeing investigation after investigation taking place, nor would you be seeing the entire 'secondary market' phenomenon coming under the intense scrutiny that it currently is.

O great, a $6 ticket to see something or other from f***ing miles away in the proverbial roof rafters ... how absolutely enthralling, and what fantastic 'value for money' (NOT). Are you nuts ? Hardly a fitting example of a healthy functioning market based on 'supply & demand' alone !! I note you don't mention the prices of the Garden or Terrace Boxes ? Are THEY representative of prices actually set by the ARTIST, or are they invariably inflated significantly above ?

The secondary market phenomenon has now run away with itself to the point that some of form of government intervention is looking like it's inevitable, at least here in the UK. Not a day overdue in my opinion, it can't come soon enough.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-05-07 14:56 by paulywaul.

Quote


What utter garbage ! The bit you don't seem to get is this ... that the ARTIST sets the price ! Not the consumer, the ARTIST !

Naturally the artists and promoters set the primary price and sometimes reset it by selling thru the secondary or dropping prices or throwing comps out the back door. And often it was the secondary market that showed them what their tickets are really worth and also provides insurance buy buying up tickets that may have never otherwise sold to anyone. Which is why, with only a few exceptions, you don't see many artists speaking out or taking concrete action.

But the consumer can set the price by refusing to buy at the listed price, forcing it downward.

I have seen buyer discipline play out enmasse and it's a wonderful thing to behold.

Quote

If the 'event' market was functioning even 'vaguely' normally, and not by contrast as it currently does (i.e. completely riddled with wilful manipulation, gross deceit, and fraudulent malpractice) ... you wouldn't be seeing investigation after investigation taking place, nor would you be seeing the entire 'secondary market' phenomenon coming under the intense scrutiny that it currently is.

Completely riddled with wilful manipulation, gross deceit, and fraudulent malpractice describes exactly how artists & promoters sell tickets to the fans. Or whoever else wants to buy them.

Quote

O great, a $6 ticket to see something or other from f***ing miles away in the proverbial roof rafters ... how absolutely enthralling, and what fantastic 'value for money' (NOT). Are you nuts ? Hardly a fitting example of a healthy functioning market based on 'supply & demand' alone !! I note you don't mention the prices of the Garden or Terrace Boxes ? Are THEY representative of prices actually set by the ARTIST, or are they invariably inflated significantly above ?

I have no idea, I haven't looked there. They might very well drop. But the rafters are almost $50 on the primary after fees. And are perfectly acceptable in many cases or the seats would never be available to begin with. But then even now I still ask myself who the hell pays $100 just for a stupid concert.

Quote

The secondary market phenomenon has now run away with itself to the point that some of form of government intervention is looking like it's inevitable, at least here in the UK. Not a day overdue in my opinion, it can't come soon enough.

Of course I keep ignoring the fact that this thread is very Eurocentric, where people expect the government to overlook nearly aspect of their lives.

This is a fascinating article - it seems that even getting rid of bots will not help us

[motherboard.vice.com]