Hi Paul.

From your last posts on Olé Tour, I understood you were looking much forward to go to Buenos Aires. Maybe you were yesterday at 3 AM trying to score a tix with Titicketek.com.ar just like a bunch of us, which happened to be impossible with regular credit cards out of Argentina, except some Amex.

I personnaly choose to go with Viagogo rather to miss the opportunity, however I agree it's a scam.

You have a plan B?

Quote
The Joker
Hi Paul.

From your last posts on Olé Tour, I understood you were looking much forward to go to Buenos Aires. Maybe you were yesterday at 3 AM trying to score a tix with Titicketek.com.ar just like a bunch of us, which happened to be impossible with regular credit cards out of Argentina, except some Amex.

I personnaly choose to go with Viagogo rather to miss the opportunity, however I agree it's a scam.

You have a plan B?

I was looking at Buenos Aires yes (only the last of the three shows), but to be honest ... the website was so dysfunctional (what with not accepting all these different credit/debit cards), that I just became put off the entire idea really, and simply gave up. I would also like to go to Montevideo, but apparently they are not even doing internet sales at all - so no chance there !!

No particular 'plan B' really, apart from perhaps to see what the situation looks like in early February ... and take it from there. I'm quite prepared for not seeing them in S America at all. The way the ticket sales are being conducted is making it too much like hard work, and I really don't have the patience any longer for dealing with all the bullshit and all the stupid prices for VIP tickets or 'early entry' tickets. USD$1200 ??? Are they totally f**ing nuts ???

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Quote
Roll73

Quote
paulywaul
Check this out .......... Harvey Goldsmith weighs in to the never-ending debate !!

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Interesting read. Whether the government's 'public consultation' has any impact or not remains to be seen of course. I absolutely share your disgust on this paulywal - wouldn't be a moment too soon if the likes of Seatwave are either shut down or forced to operate in a more ethical way (which would basically mean a 180 degree turn around from how they operate currently).

The thing I don't understand and what really gets my goat - is how the hell do they actually get hold of all these tickets in the first place?! It can't all be speculative selling can it? Is it a case of promoters/ venues/ shadowy people on the 'inside' selling their allocations at an inflated rate to Seatwave etc who then cream their share of the poor fans? If that's the case then surely it's more than just the re-sale sites that need to be clamped down on.

I think it's a combination of things. Some IS speculative. The secondary sites haven't necessarily bought or acquired the tickets before 're-selling them', they're just chancing their luck hoping to enter into an agreement with you to sell you this or that for a horribly inflated price. If they succeed, then they simply go about acquiring (at a much lesser price obviously) whatever it is they've just sold you at a horribly inflated price ...

A proportion of what they're selling, they HAVE actually bought, and the way they go about buying those is by getting their own staff to buy them in the presales and public sales, using multiple credit cards and multiple addresses. That entire business was laid bare in a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary for example ......

[www.youtube.com]

Then there's the good old fashioned scalper, they buy what they can and promptly list them on either SEATWAVE, GETMEIN, VIAGOGO, or STUBHUB for a hugely inflated price.

Finally, even though all parties deny it furiously, the PRIMARY ticket agencies unquestionably allocate large numbers of tickets to the 'secondaries' for resale. Watch the documentary - it explains how that happens in practice !!

So there's lots going on .........

HOWEVER, the real sadness is that in this day and age, the technology exists for the RE-SELLING OF TICKETS AT AN INFLATED PRICE to be so easily thwarted, it would be simplicity itself. As Harvey Goldsmith himself explained, to deter 're-selling', you simply link a buyer's ID to a ticket with a unique number, and you have a mechanism in place at the venue that checks the ID of the person presenting that ticket. If there's no match, the person doesn't get in - f**ing simple !! And if you wish to deter re-selling at an 'inflated price', you simply create a web based mechanism for one person to sell a ticket to another at FACE VALUE, and at the same time make a revised/altered association between a person's ID and the ticket number. Again ... depressingly simple.

On both counts, people who buy to re-sell are deterred, and people who genuinely cannot attend an event and simply wish to sell the ticket to another (without profiteering) are catered for.

It CAN be done, and it can be done EASILY, but it does need to UK government to recognise that a major problem exists, that intervention is required, that existing practices need to be outlawed, and then some of these depressingly simple solutions could be implemented immediately. The result would be that these four a**hole companies that represent the worst excesses of this runaway and out of control phenomenon would be out of business within days.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Which is getting into the exposure of the secondary market swindle:

[www.which.co.uk]

Obviously the best way to deter reselling on the secondary market is buyer discipline. As long as people are willing to pay more for concerts, there will be people willing to fill that order.

Sounds like the problem with these South American sites makes you appreciate Ticketmaster more. A lot of times tickets from other ticketing sites do really well on Stubhub only, because the buyer can't figure out who the primary ticketing agent is.

I guess you all above are right..
A single VIP ticket for GA, as sold at USD 1,200 in Argentina by Titicketek.com.ar, is totally silly.
As for the three Viagago tickets, I paid a total extra of USD 1,000. I know this is much
But
- It is likely one of the last "residency shows" the Stones will ever offer.. I prefer to pay USD 300 extra for 3 shows, than to follow part of a tour with one single show in every city, and the extra spending that comes with it planes, taxi, etc.
- A "residency show" will provide some different numbers every night
- I found a cosy hotel appartement for USD 50 per day in La Plata, one or two km from the stadium... Nothing to compare with lodging in London when I go to O2
- This is my first time in South America, and the cherry on the cake are the Stones



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-18 19:46 by The Joker.

Quote
Dan
Obviously the best way to deter reselling on the secondary market is buyer discipline. As long as people are willing to pay more for concerts, there will be people willing to fill that order.

Sounds like the problem with these South American sites makes you appreciate Ticketmaster more. A lot of times tickets from other ticketing sites do really well on Stubhub only, because the buyer can't figure out who the primary ticketing agent is.

I think you've missed the point !! People are being forced to pay more for concerts because other people (those that have no interest in attending an event, merely buying tickets for it and then reselling them for an inflated price) are buying them up en-masse. People are not so much willing to pay more than face value, but they're being forced to ... because they're being significantly denied the opportunity to buy the tickets at the price set by the artist/promoter/primary vendor.

If every single prospective purchaser simply refused to pay a nickel over face value, then yes, in principle - the market for resold tickets would collapse. But that is never likely to happen, in large part because there is mass ignorance out there among the event-going public. They can no longer distinguish between a primary ticket vendor (Ticketmaster/Seetickets for example), and sites like Seatwave, Getmein, Stubhub, Viagogo. These are not primary ticket vendors, they are secondary (re-sale) vendors, and they have done a spectacularly good job in deceiving the public. THAT is why they are now the subject of a lengthy investigation into their practices ... deceit !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-18 22:25 by paulywaul.

I'm with Paul... But rather to look for discipline, why a mega act like the Stones do not simply demand when there is a huge expectation that you cannot buy more than, say, 2 tix per credit card, and this is over.

As for parties over 2, they would just split, and chat about the show during the after show.. Instead of chatting during the show.

The artists would not lost a cent, and resellers would not be able to buy "en-masse", as they can today for instance with Ticketmaster, at 8 tix per buying.

For one thing concerts run on a razor thin profit margin for almost everyone. So venues, promoters and even artists are all too happy to pass along the burden of moving the tickets to other parties. So when someone buys 8 tickets, even in hopes of flipping them, they are glad at least someone is buying the tickets.

Remember, only a small percentage of gigs are high demand instant sellouts. Example, for most shows from Voodoo Lounge thru A Bigger Bang most venues were full by showtime but there were few instant sellouts. In cases like that,
everyone involved is thankful for all tickets sold regardless of intentions of original purchaser. In a thread on another message board about ticket reselling by
participants, the Stones as a money loser comes up quite a few times. My last great deal was Anaheim Stadium for $20 but this was very common 1997 to 2005.

Ticket selling on the primary market as always is inprecise, inept and inefficient.

Two ticket limits for smaller general admission shows are quite common. And ticket limits are easily defeated. Earlier this year I scored 10 tickets to a 2 ticket limit show. The intention was making sure my friends got in but I am sure I could
organize something on a regular basis. The same show was audited by the band afterwards and found the venue withheld and resold about 120 tickets on the secondary market. 500 capacity club.

As always not particulary concerned about passing legislation with the aims of protecting the wallets of the ignorant and the naive. A fool and their money and all that. Especially from years of closely watching the concert industry I know all about the corruption, deceit and taking advantage of consumer naivete by primary agents.

A lot of people I know buy on the secondary market almost exclusively. Whether it's the opportunity to pick just the perfect seat at a particular venue or take advantage of market excesses to grab a good last minute bargain, sometimes it's offers a much better choice than the primary ticketing agent. For years I mainly bought in the parking lot unless a low Ebay bid was accepted.

Also bands scalp their own tickets on broker sites.

Quote
paulywaul

Quote
Roll73

Quote
paulywaul
Check this out .......... Harvey Goldsmith weighs in to the never-ending debate !!

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Interesting read. Whether the government's 'public consultation' has any impact or not remains to be seen of course. I absolutely share your disgust on this paulywal - wouldn't be a moment too soon if the likes of Seatwave are either shut down or forced to operate in a more ethical way (which would basically mean a 180 degree turn around from how they operate currently).

The thing I don't understand and what really gets my goat - is how the hell do they actually get hold of all these tickets in the first place?! It can't all be speculative selling can it? Is it a case of promoters/ venues/ shadowy people on the 'inside' selling their allocations at an inflated rate to Seatwave etc who then cream their share of the poor fans? If that's the case then surely it's more than just the re-sale sites that need to be clamped down on.

I think it's a combination of things. Some IS speculative. The secondary sites haven't necessarily bought or acquired the tickets before 're-selling them', they're just chancing their luck hoping to enter into an agreement with you to sell you this or that for a horribly inflated price. If they succeed, then they simply go about acquiring (at a much lesser price obviously) whatever it is they've just sold you at a horribly inflated price ...

A proportion of what they're selling, they HAVE actually bought, and the way they go about buying those is by getting their own staff to buy them in the presales and public sales, using multiple credit cards and multiple addresses. That entire business was laid bare in a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary for example ......

[www.youtube.com]

Then there's the good old fashioned scalper, they buy what they can and promptly list them on either SEATWAVE, GETMEIN, VIAGOGO, or STUBHUB for a hugely inflated price.

Finally, even though all parties deny it furiously, the PRIMARY ticket agencies unquestionably allocate large numbers of tickets to the 'secondaries' for resale. Watch the documentary - it explains how that happens in practice !!

So there's lots going on .........

HOWEVER, the real sadness is that in this day and age, the technology exists for the RE-SELLING OF TICKETS AT AN INFLATED PRICE to be so easily thwarted, it would be simplicity itself. As Harvey Goldsmith himself explained, to deter 're-selling', you simply link a buyer's ID to a ticket with a unique number, and you have a mechanism in place at the venue that checks the ID of the person presenting that ticket. If there's no match, the person doesn't get in - f**ing simple !! And if you wish to deter re-selling at an 'inflated price', you simply create a web based mechanism for one person to sell a ticket to another at FACE VALUE, and at the same time make a revised/altered association between a person's ID and the ticket number. Again ... depressingly simple.

On both counts, people who buy to re-sell are deterred, and people who genuinely cannot attend an event and simply wish to sell the ticket to another (without profiteering) are catered for.

It CAN be done, and it can be done EASILY, but it does need to UK government to recognise that a major problem exists, that intervention is required, that existing practices need to be outlawed, and then some of these depressingly simple solutions could be implemented immediately. The result would be that these four a**hole companies that represent the worst excesses of this runaway and out of control phenomenon would be out of business within days.

Thanks for that response Paulywaul - that explains a few things. (But makes it no less infuriating of course). Fingers crossed there is some government intervention to put an end to all this soon!

Quote
Dan
For one thing concerts run on a razor thin profit margin for almost everyone. So venues, promoters and even artists are all too happy to pass along the burden of moving the tickets to other parties. So when someone buys 8 tickets, even in hopes of flipping them, they are glad at least someone is buying the tickets.

Remember, only a small percentage of gigs are high demand instant sellouts. Example, for most shows from Voodoo Lounge thru A Bigger Bang most venues were full by showtime but there were few instant sellouts. In cases like that,
everyone involved is thankful for all tickets sold regardless of intentions of original purchaser. In a thread on another message board about ticket reselling by
participants, the Stones as a money loser comes up quite a few times. My last great deal was Anaheim Stadium for $20 but this was very common 1997 to 2005.

Ticket selling on the primary market as always is inprecise, inept and inefficient.

Two ticket limits for smaller general admission shows are quite common. And ticket limits are easily defeated. Earlier this year I scored 10 tickets to a 2 ticket limit show. The intention was making sure my friends got in but I am sure I could
organize something on a regular basis. The same show was audited by the band afterwards and found the venue withheld and resold about 120 tickets on the secondary market. 500 capacity club.

As always not particulary concerned about passing legislation with the aims of protecting the wallets of the ignorant and the naive. A fool and their money and all that. Especially from years of closely watching the concert industry I know all about the corruption, deceit and taking advantage of consumer naivete by primary agents.

A lot of people I know buy on the secondary market almost exclusively. Whether it's the opportunity to pick just the perfect seat at a particular venue or take advantage of market excesses to grab a good last minute bargain, sometimes it's offers a much better choice than the primary ticketing agent. For years I mainly bought in the parking lot unless a low Ebay bid was accepted.

Also bands scalp their own tickets on broker sites.

Fine reply, but I must question you on a few things ...........

<<< For one thing concerts run on a razor thin profit margin for almost everyone. So venues, promoters and even artists are all too happy to pass along the burden of moving the tickets to other parties. So when someone buys 8 tickets, even in hopes of flipping them, they are glad at least someone is buying the tickets >>>

Yes, I can believe that, a 'sale' is a 'sale' after all .......

<<< Ticket selling on the primary market as always is imprecise, inept and inefficient >>>

That's one hell of an accusation, why is selling tickets through primary vendors like Ticketmaster or Seetickets (a) imprecise (b) inept (c) inefficient ?

In most people's experience, buying from the secondary sites is all of those things, starting with one very basic aspect ..... they do not even do the customer the courtesy of providing the most crucial and basic of details about what it is that is being offered for sale. In your average seated venue an entry ticket is represented by 3 fundamental 'features'. These are (i) block (ii) row (iii) seat number. Unless you personally are of the 'happy to buy blind and/or accept what I'm given' fraternity, most people I think (like difficult old me for example) wish to buy a ticket for a gig that tells me exactly what I'm buying at both the point and the time of purchase.

That's what you get when you go through the primary vendors like Ticketmaster or Seetickets ? So WHY is it that you do not see those crucial details about what is bring offered for sale on the secondary sites at the point and time of purchase ? Explain that if you will. You can't ... and neither can they. It is deceit, it is total and utter customer deceit - lock stock and two smoking barrels.

I illustrate by example. Take a look at this. Tickets for Jeff Lynne's ELO at London's O2 Arena on 20th April 2016: The big four secondary market sites are selling hundred s and hundreds of tickets ........

[www.seatwave.com]

[www.getmein.com]

[www.viagogo.co.uk]

[www.stubhub.co.uk]

On all these sites without exception there is not one single seat number quoted, and on at least two of them, there's not even a row number quoted. NOT EVEN A ROW NUMBER ... and in the O2 Arena there are as many rows as there are letters in the alphabet.

You find this acceptable do you ? You consider that this is a full, fair, and comprehensive description of the ticket that is being sold ? Because I don't, not when two thirds of the defining characteristics of a ticket are not revealed.

And as a matter of interest, on the day of writing (20th November 2015) - all four of these companies are in breach of UK law. They are obliged by law to reveal at the point and time of sale information about what they are selling (which obviously includes block/row/seat numbers - and yet many months after a law was passed (an amendment to the consumer rights bill), they still do not do it. If you doubt my word - check it here. IT IS NOW LAW - and these sites currently operate IN BREACH OF THE LAW !!

[www.theguardian.com]

THAT - is but one of the reasons why their current practices are the subject of a formal investigation. It is also why, when initial findings of the ongoing investigation were made public, two out of the four companies declined to provide a spokesperson to rebut accusations. Is it not bloody obvious why ? Of course it is. It is because the indefensible cannot be defended.

<<< I know all about the corruption, deceit and taking advantage of consumer naivety by primary agents >>>

Perhaps you could explain to me what the nature of the corruption is that prevails within or among the designated 'primary' vendors, and furthermore - how exactly they take advantage of 'consumer naivety' ?

I would agree with you one thing however, and that is that on occasions the scalpers get in badly wrong and over-estimate demand for an event, resulting in definite 'bargains' to be had on some of the secondary sites. Not exactly a 'frequent occurrence' but it does happen - I'll grant you.

In conclusion: the way the secondary market operates at the moment through companies like SEATWAVE, GETMEIN, VIAGOGO, and STUBHUB is to the complete and utter detriment of the consumer, it is as simple as that.

Personally, what with there having been a succession of 'exposes' and investigations into these companies' practices and the entire way the resale market operates, I think they are living on borrowed time. They have been - and indeed continue to be - their very own worst enemies, and ultimately they will have had a good run for their money - but the sham of 'serving the consumer' and all that bollocks that they have perpetrated on a tragically gullible and naïve public for too long now is living these days very much on borrowed time.

I for one will be celebrating bigtime when these motherf****ers are finally fully legislated against and are put out of business ...

I appreciate you might not be, but there we have it ... a difference of opinion.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-24 11:04 by paulywaul.

I see Elton John has spoken out about this on the BBc website.

Prefers people to save thier money and rather see empty seats than people paying this kind of money.

It can be done & Adele made a start by weeding out 18,000 touts from her presale & cancelling some of the tickets appearing on secondary sites. Good for her management & may others take note & follow suit, because the whole situation has rocketed way out of hand.

[www.theguardian.com]

apologies if this has been mentioned before but Tom Waits got round this on his European Tour a few years back (2008) You could only buy 2 tickets, an email was sent to you a week or so after purchase asking for names for the tickets. On the night you brought i.d. to get in... simple. If a band/artist was that concerned they could easily drive it. Waits did.

Quote
johnh
apologies if this has been mentioned before but Tom Waits got round this on his European Tour a few years back (2008) You could only buy 2 tickets, an email was sent to you a week or so after purchase asking for names for the tickets. On the night you brought i.d. to get in... simple. If a band/artist was that concerned they could easily drive it. Waits did.

No doubt there are ways to prevent the abuse. But since touring has become the main income stream for artists, most are looking for way to make more money out of the process, not less. Allowing secondary ticket sales gives them better a negotiation position when fees and guarantees are decided. Sad but true.

The outcry is getting louder ...

[www.musicweek.com]

[www.musicweek.com]

Some of the biggest names, promoters and artists alike, are all now calling for legislation to curb these absurd excesses that continue to prevail ... I for one do genuinely believe that the life expectancy of companies like SEATWAVE, GETMEIN, VIAGOGO, & STUBHUB is increasingly limited !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

[www.gov.uk]

Worth a read. It'll be interesting to see what the conclusion of the investigation/review is, stay tuned for 26th May 2016.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Noel Gallagher voices his opinion, joining the chorus

[www.bbc.co.uk]

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

very funny to me that people believe scalping will be wiped out .

NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN PROBES EVENT TICKET SALES

Thursday, January 28, 2016 11:13AM

NEW YORK (WABC) --

New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman on Thursday released the results of a wide-ranging investigation into the concert and sports ticket industry. The investigation uncovered practices and abuses that prevent consumers from accessing tickets at affordable prices or even accessing them at all.

Schneiderman also announced settlements with two ticket brokers that were illegally operating without a ticket reseller license. The businesses, MSMSS, LLC and Extra Base Tickets, LLC, have sold thousands of tickets to events in New York. The settlements require that the companies and their principals maintain a ticket reseller license and pay penalties for having operated illegally. MSMSS will pay $80,000 in penalties and Extra Base Tickets will pay $65,000.

The Attorney General's office began the investigation in response to a series of citizen complaints. The report on the investigation, entitled "Obstructed View: What's Blocking New Yorkers from Getting Tickets," details the middle-men and troubling industry practices that work to keep affordable tickets out of the hands of ordinary New Yorkers.


"Ticketing is a fixed game," Schneiderman said. "My office will continue to crack down on those who break our laws, prey on ordinary consumers, and deny New Yorkers affordable access to the concerts and sporting events they love. This investigation is just the beginning of our efforts to create a level playing field in the ticket industry."

For the most popular concerts, the investigation found that many tickets are never made available to the general public in the first place. Rather, a majority of tickets for major entertainment events are either put on hold and reserved for a variety of industry insiders including the venues, artists or promoters, or reserved for pre-sale events and made available to non-public groups, such as those who carry particular credit cards. On average, more than half of all tickets -- 54 percent - are reserved for insiders. Those reserved tickets are split between insider holds (16 percent) and pre-sales (38 percent).

In addition, the investigation found that venues and ticket sellers like Ticketmaster regularly tacked on fees that added more than 21 percent to the face price of tickets, and in some extreme cases, added more than the face-value price of the ticket.

The investigation further discovered that third-party brokers resell tickets on sites like StubHub and TicketsNow at average margins of 49 percent above face-value -- sometimes more than 1,000 percent.

Some of the brokers are using illegal specialty software - called "ticket bots" -- to quickly purchase as many desirable tickets as possible and resell them at a significant markup. The investigation, for instance, found that on December 8, 2014, a single broker used a bot to purchase 1,012 tickets to a June 2015 U2 show at Madison Square Garden within the very first minute of the sale. The investigation confirms that hundreds of thousands of tickets are being acquired using illegal software.

...
“The revelation that the concert and sport ticket industry is unfair is nothing new, however discovering how deep it goes is certainly unsettling,” said Assemblyman Jeffrey Dinowitz, Chair of the Assembly Committee on Consumer Affairs & Protection. “This unscrupulous system is detrimental to the thousands of fans out there who are just trying to see their favorite show or sports team. Ticket vendors charging substantial fees, or withholding tickets to distribute to industry insiders have created a system that is decidedly unfair to the general public. Moreover, the existing system has also enabled a select few to buy tickets in bulk to Broadway shows like ‘Hamilton,’ or big concerts like Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band, only to sell them on the secondary market at outrageous markups – these people are nothing short of vultures. I applaud the Attorney General for conducting this investigation.”

“When local music lovers have to spend so much on one concert, it leaves that much less money to spend on local music, theater, and entertainment - and that can hurt our local cultural economy” said Tod A. Kniazuk, Executive Director of Arts Services Initiative of Western New York. “We applaud Attorney General Eric Schneiderman’s effort to combat this issue, and we support a system that is more equitable for those who wish to experience the arts.”

“I’ve worked with artists to make ticket prices affordable, only to see those same tickets on sale on the secondary market for much more than face value,” David Taylor, an independent promoter with Empire State Concerts said. “It’s what happens when bots are involved, and consumers are left with the choice of not attending events or paying a lot to see their favorite artists. This is a practice that needs to end, and I thank the Attorney General for his support.”

“I’ve been to numerous concerts in my life, but recently I’ve had more difficulty purchasing tickets,” said Debra Cresanti of the Town of Cheektowaga. “I attribute the problem to ticket bots, and I feel they create an uneven playing field. People like me are often left with the option of paying an exorbitant amount of money for tickets or not seeing their favorite performers live. It’s unfair, and I thank Attorney General Schneiderman for working to correct the problem.”

“I've been in the live music and events business for twenty years and over that time I've seen technology have a positive impact on our industry. With the good has also come the bad and the ticket bots are a very real problem for both producers and consumers,” said Donny Kutzbach of Funtime Presents/Town Ballroom. “I’ve seen bots manipulate the system, hold tickets and ultimately lock average consumers out of the ticket buying process. It’s unfair, and I thank Attorney General Eric Schneiderman for working to resolve this issue.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-01-29 03:31 by schillid.

[www.ag.ny.gov]

Its about time. about 25 years late.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder if the Attorney General can really do something about it. I really know nothing about the New York/USA justice system.

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

Quote
tumbled
Its about time. about 25 years late.

agreed.

Since they can't make ticket bots any more illegal than they already are, they'll have to think of some other way of beating them.

Interesting that they seem to be including pre-sales limited by credit card or whatever in their catalogue of dodgy dealings.

postive move



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-01-29 15:09 by TheGreek.

Bots are going to ruin it for the honest hustlers.

He should try getting tickets to Springsteen at Barclay's. "Your wait time is 43 minutes." The Saturday show was supposed to be on sale at 11AM. Still not on sale yet as of 11:10. But I'll bet "somebody's" buying them as I type.