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Brennos

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DandelionPowderman

He's sending it to you, signed.

Seriously?

I just got mine. Check the link and where to order

Impressive piece of work Silver Dagger ! (perhaps that's what someone should've said to Brian about his songwriting ?)


Yes I think Brian Jones did write songs but other egos'(ALO/MJ/KR) that wrestled control of the band (and in Keith's case, Brian's girlfriend) from him prevented him from having confidence in sharing his own efforts with the group.

We are aware of Brian's important contributions in the studio which made these songs classics...."Ruby Tuesday", "Under My Thumb", "Lady Jane", "Out of Time","Sad Day", "Cloud", "2000 LYFH", "No Expectations," Salt of the Earth", "Midnight Rambler", "I Just Can't Be Satisfied," "You Better Move On", "We Love You", "Little Red Rooster"....and so on....listen to the first Stones single with Brian on second vocals and harmonica....

Yes we hear and agree that according to many observers Brian was not the nicest of people...The same could be said of others...Surely NOT giving Brian songwriting credits for his unique contributions ("Ruby Tuesday" for example) isn't very nice either...You've got to laugh when KD Lang (no disrespect) gets a songwriting credit for ASMB..Pierre Du Beauport (no disrespect again ) gets a songwriting credit for exactly what?? (Kind of confirms "No Jones No Stones" doesn't it ?!)

I think by the time of RnR Circus Mr Jones was not a well man at all(drink,drugs, mental and physical health.. most of it his own doing.. the rest of it exacerbated by others who allegedly went out of their way to sideline him ). Brian possibly discussed a solo project with John Lennon (by this time looking for a way out of the Beatles..Ringo and George not too far behind). What Brian needed was motivation and the right people around him to nurture a career after the Stones.

As for the DOM soundtrack sessions...maybe the only Stones related person to look into a reissue would be Bill Wyman?

"THERE'S NOTHING THE MATTER WITH HIM THAT A LITTLE LOVE WOULDN'T HAVE CURED..."
(No wonder Brian enjoyed playing on several Beatles sessions)

HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME JAGGER-RICHARDS-OLDHAM !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-25 21:56 by FOGGY.

Oops ! Exasperated ? I meant exacerbated. Apologies

^^ Brian didn't play on Salt Of The Earth.

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Silver Dagger
Anyone else think that Mick and Keith should have afforded Brian a songwriting credit for tunes where his imaginative musical colouring enhanced and even improved their original ideas? I certainly do.

Songs like Ruby Tuesday, Under My Thumb and Out Of Time gained an extra sheen and more lustre thanks to his input. I guess the difference is that his contribution was made in the studio and not in the classic 'across the kitchen table' situation where dual songwriters usually co-pen their material.

I wonder if the times that Ronnie has been given a songwriting credit emanate from inspiring the germ of a song idea at the very beginning of the songwriting process or from adding an idea in the studio. If it's the latter then I feel sorry that Brian too wasn't afforded that opportunity and missed the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the Stones' songwriting team.

Squabbling over songwriting rights and jealousy of band members that don't get that money has seen the demise of many a band. Unfortunately I believe this was oneof the major factors that led to Brian's dissatisfaction with the Stones. Had he pushed himself a bit more and come up with the goods it might have been so different.

coming up with great ideas, instrumentation, intros, etc. does not constitute songwriting.

great example: mr tambourine man recorded by the byrds. dylan got the songwriting credit. hear everything the byrds added to that song? none of it constitutes songwriting. it's arranging. if you think about it like that, it becomes very obvious why for example his contributions to under my thumb were not 'songwriting'. that doesn't take away how great they are, however.

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Turner68


coming up with great ideas, instrumentation, intros, etc. does not constitute songwriting.

great example: mr tambourine man recorded by the byrds. dylan got the songwriting credit. hear everything the byrds added to that song? none of it constitutes songwriting. it's arranging. if you think about it like that, it becomes very obvious why for example his contributions to under my thumb were not 'songwriting'. that doesn't take away how great they are, however.

Kinda, but it depends. The Byrds clearly took a completed song and arranged it.

The above happening at the time of the songs creation means that intros, arrangement ideas etc can and do influence the writing of a song.

Do note that many a band has song writing credits which credit people who have contributed exactly the same kinds of things Brian did contribute.

Business.

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His Majesty

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Turner68


coming up with great ideas, instrumentation, intros, etc. does not constitute songwriting.

great example: mr tambourine man recorded by the byrds. dylan got the songwriting credit. hear everything the byrds added to that song? none of it constitutes songwriting. it's arranging. if you think about it like that, it becomes very obvious why for example his contributions to under my thumb were not 'songwriting'. that doesn't take away how great they are, however.

Kinda, but it depends. The Byrds clearly took a completed song and arranged it.

The above happening at the time of the songs creation means that intros, arrangement ideas etc can and do influence the writing of a song.

Do note that many a band has song writing credits which credit people who have contributed exactly the same kinds of things Brian did contribute.

Business.

Fair enough.

So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

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His Majesty
So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

So do Beatles 'fans' also write about Ringo not getting songwriting credits? And call therefore Paul en John 'greedy'? Ringo made major contributions to Lennon/McCartney songs....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 13:38 by Sacke.

George and Ringo did contribute the occasional line (not the kind of line Keef digs). Tomorrow Never Knows and A Hard Days Night were both phrases uttered by the big-nosed tub thumper. I wouldn't consider them worthy of a songwriting credit.
George was apparently put out when a bit of a song of his turned up as the middle 8 of She Said She Said (?) and I read somewhere that all 4 contributed some lyrics to Eleanor Rigby though by far the main writer was Paul. I don't know if it's true but I did read that George may have contributed the "ah look at all the lonely people" line to Eleanor Rigby - may not be true. Only one line but almost the most important one.
but no...speaking as a Beatle fan I never see Fab fans suggesting George and Ringo got diddled out of songwriting credits based on their instrumental contributions. Paul effectively sacking George as lead guitarist after Beatles For Sale, yes....
So coming to this as a bigger Beatle fan than Stones fan (yeah i know, kick my ass), I don't see Brian's musical contributions as potential songwriting credits. They are arrangement contributions.
Is there any really hard evidence that he co-wrote Ruby Tuesday ? Did he ever mention it in print/interview ?

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His Majesty
So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

If we knew for a fact that Brian wasn't merely adding to songs completed by Mick and Keith, that is..

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His Majesty
So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

Bill Wyman did not recieve credits for his fantastic bass lines on so many songs, and to date never requested any. Wyman has complained about just every penny not earned, but never complained about not getting song credits.

That's certainly saying something.

Mathijs

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Sacke

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His Majesty
So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

So do Beatles 'fans' also write about Ringo not getting songwriting credits? And call therefore Paul en John 'greedy'? Ringo made major contributions to Lennon/McCartney songs....

Speaking of drummers - note the Bonham credits on these Led Zeppelin songs, I wonder what he wrote on these?

Good Times Bad Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Communication Breakdown (Page/Jones/Bonham)
How Many More Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Whole Lotta Love (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Lemon Song (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Heartbreaker (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Out On The Tiles (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Rock and Roll (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
When The Levee Breaks (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Memphis Minnie)
The Crunge (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
D'yer Mak'er (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Ocean (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
In My Time of Dying (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Kashmir (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Boogie With Stu (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Ian Stewart & Mrs. Valens)
Royal Orleans (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Darlene (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)

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2000 LYFH

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Sacke

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His Majesty
So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

So do Beatles 'fans' also write about Ringo not getting songwriting credits? And call therefore Paul en John 'greedy'? Ringo made major contributions to Lennon/McCartney songs....

Speaking of drummers - note the Bonham credits on these Led Zeppelin songs, I wonder what he wrote on these?

Good Times Bad Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Communication Breakdown (Page/Jones/Bonham)
How Many More Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Whole Lotta Love (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Lemon Song (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Heartbreaker (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Out On The Tiles (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Rock and Roll (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
When The Levee Breaks (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Memphis Minnie)
The Crunge (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
D'yer Mak'er (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Ocean (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
In My Time of Dying (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Kashmir (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Boogie With Stu (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Ian Stewart & Mrs. Valens)
Royal Orleans (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Darlene (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)

Quite a few of those songs they didn't actually write themselves, hence easy to credit all members

Here's my favourite «Whole Lotta Love» (which is also a cover)

[www.youtube.com]

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Mathijs
Bill Wyman did not recieve credits for his fantastic bass lines on so many songs, and to date never requested any. Wyman has complained about just every penny not earned, but never complained about not getting song credits.

That's certainly saying something...

But did Wyman write those 'fantastic bass lines' or merely play them?

Writing a song is very different from contributing what is expected of you as a band member.

.....

Olly.

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Sacke
...Ringo made major contributions to Lennon/McCartney songs....

I'd be interested to hear which contributions you have in mind.

.....

Olly.

If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 15:36 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.

On the other hand, if Bill hadn't come up with the great bass track on "Miss You", the song might have ended up in the vaults? Songwriting is not always the virtue that it seems to be.

The link below is a nice read, probably a bit outdated. Halfway it's about the Glimmer Twins.

[lawyerdrummer.com]

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DancelittleSister

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DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.

On the other hand, if Bill hadn't come up with the great bass track on "Miss You", the song might have ended up in the vaults? Songwriting is not always the virtue that it seems to be.

The link below is a nice read, probably a bit outdated. Halfway it's about the Glimmer Twins.

[lawyerdrummer.com]

I'm sure you mean «Billy» here?

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2000 LYFH

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Sacke

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His Majesty
So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

So do Beatles 'fans' also write about Ringo not getting songwriting credits? And call therefore Paul en John 'greedy'? Ringo made major contributions to Lennon/McCartney songs....

Speaking of drummers - note the Bonham credits on these Led Zeppelin songs, I wonder what he wrote on these?

Good Times Bad Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Communication Breakdown (Page/Jones/Bonham)
How Many More Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Whole Lotta Love (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Lemon Song (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Heartbreaker (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Out On The Tiles (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Rock and Roll (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
When The Levee Breaks (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Memphis Minnie)
The Crunge (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
D'yer Mak'er (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Ocean (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
In My Time of Dying (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Kashmir (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Boogie With Stu (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Ian Stewart & Mrs. Valens)
Royal Orleans (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Darlene (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)

I have no much knowledge about the details behind Led Zeppelin credition policy, but it looks like that they were making a kind of statement there: being a band they were, strong individuals, all of them like solo players, they wanted to recognize the significance of each member in the outcome. This is to say that they also treated 'songs' a bit differently than they traditionally are taken ('just' melody and lyrics), more like a result of a group effort, each instrument having a 'say' in the whole.

There is no right or wrong in matters like these, but a contingent social convention how to see the stuff (or divide the cake). Someone always decides these matters, and seemingly Zeppelin had initially a rather democratic constitution, or the guys who decided these matters (Page? Plant?) a more altruistic approach or were applying different principles to the songs. It isn't actually much different than what the Stones did in the early day with their collective pseudonym Nanker Phelge, only that of instead emphasizing each contribitor, the Stones were emphazing the whole band effort. (Other similarity: neither hesitated 'borrowing' song ideas from the blues canon...)

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:05 by Doxa.

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2000 LYFH


Speaking of drummers - note the Bonham credits on these Led Zeppelin songs, I wonder what he wrote on these?

It shows how different bands approach song writing credits.

For example, the original line-up of King Crimson deemed Michael Giles contribution so important that he received credit for 21st Century Schizoid Man.

The point stands, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in another band, a band that had a different approach to song writing credits.

We have been told many times that Keith often went in to the studio with only a rough idea. Bill has said that ideas by Brian, himself and Charlie would be thrown in to the melting pot.

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Doxa

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2000 LYFH

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Sacke

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His Majesty
So, essentially, Brian would have received some song writing credits had he been in a band whose main song writers weren't so greedy and protective of credits. ><

So do Beatles 'fans' also write about Ringo not getting songwriting credits? And call therefore Paul en John 'greedy'? Ringo made major contributions to Lennon/McCartney songs....

Speaking of drummers - note the Bonham credits on these Led Zeppelin songs, I wonder what he wrote on these?

Good Times Bad Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Communication Breakdown (Page/Jones/Bonham)
How Many More Times (Page/Jones/Bonham)
Whole Lotta Love (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Lemon Song (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Heartbreaker (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Out On The Tiles (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Rock and Roll (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
When The Levee Breaks (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Memphis Minnie)
The Crunge (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
D'yer Mak'er (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
The Ocean (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
In My Time of Dying (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Kashmir (Page/Plant/Bonham)
Boogie With Stu (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Ian Stewart & Mrs. Valens)
Royal Orleans (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)
Darlene (Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham)

I have no much knowledge about the details behind Led Zeppelin credition policy, but it looks like that they were making a kind of statement there: being a band they were, strong individuals, all of them like solo players, they wanted to recognize the significance of each member in the outcome. This is to say that they also treated 'songs' a bit differently than they traditionally are taken ('just' melody and lyrics), more like a result of a group effort, each instrument having a 'say' in the whole.

There is no right or wrong in matters like these, but a contingent social convention how to see the stuff (or divide the cake). Someone always decides these matters, and seemingly Zeppelin had initially a rather democratic constitution, or the guys who decided these matters (Page? Plant?) a more altruistic approach or were applying different principles to the songs. It isn't actually much different than what the Stones did in the early day with their collective pseudonym Nanker Phelge, only that of instead emphasizing each contribitor, the Stones were emphazing the whole band effort. (Other similarity: neither hesitated 'borrowing' song ideas from the blues canon...)

- Doxa

By almost always to leave one member out?

Songs come to be in so many ways, and so many of those ways create situations where the contributions can and do affect what the song finally becomes.

These situations and related contributions can be noted or completely ignored when it comes to the names on the song writing credit... business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-26 17:19 by His Majesty.

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DandelionPowderman



By almost always to leave one member out?

What do you mean by that? Jones?

- Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman



By almost always to leave one member out?

What do you mean by that? Jones?

- Doxa

Check the list. On many of the tunes one member is left out - they're taking turns, though

Many of those songs are shameless rip offs.

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DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.

If the rhythm of the bassline then affects and changes the rhythm of the melody a song writing contribution has been made.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.

If the rhythm of the bassline then affects and changes the rhythm of the melody a song writing contribution has been made.

No

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DandelionPowderman

No

Yes.

Whether it gets acknowledged is a different matter.

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DandelionPowderman
If someone present you a song you don't «write» a bass line for it, you add it to the song. Without the song that bass line probably never would exist.

Some songs start as a bass line, for instance, Another One Bites The Dust.