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Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Rokyfan ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:08

Whoever said that , why do you keep repeating it over and over if it's so offensive? You are just spreading it. People responding to the offending line have reprinted it countless times, the guy who said it first said it once. You draw more attention to these sort of comments by attacking them.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: andrewt ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:08

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Bliss
Quote
proudmary
Quote
StonedInTokyo
Quote
Bliss
Ok. What's bothering me is that this smells like a PR spin to deflect attention away from the truth. Out of seven long term r'ships that we know of, three of the women have made serious suicide attempts, one successfully. Now perhaps all these women were unstable to begin with. Or perhaps not.

Postponing a massive tour to fly half-way around the world to attend to this unfortunate matter and mourn her loss is not a PR-spin. Regardless of what you may think of him, it is wholly inappropriate to make judgmental pronouncements on Mick's relationship with L'Wren, particularly at this time.

I totally agree StonedInTokyo
To Bliss - the relationships are not the life imprisonment.
You do not stay in them for fear that your partner will commit suicide in case of breakup. And we have no evidence to support this theory - Mick's separation from L'Wren - except for tabloid gossip.
However, I find it strange that CindyC with her respectful desire to understand what happened was ostracized and banned while this puritanical finger-pointing does not cause any ill feeling

To PM - I agree completely. Apart from not yielding to L'Wren's reported desire for marriage and family, there is no evidence to suggest that Mick ever treated L'Wren badly. There are reports that he bailed her out financially numerous times. They always looked extremely happy together and it really seemed as if Mick had found contentment at last. It is quite certain that Mick would never have wished her any harm and definitely not this tragic end. But you are correct, a r'ship should not be a prison sentence, and when only one person wants to leave, the other often suffers.

Let us be clear - no one is blaming Mick for L'Wren's death.

I am very glad you have concluded with that! Eventually...

<He pulled the plug. The funding plug and the emotional plug>

Are you able to see for yourself now - how this quote looks?

I'm familiar with the source of that on "another board", I'm sure many are.

There were some circumstantial inferences that seemed to add up on the surface of it, but once he started quoting song lyrics (Bigger Bang song lyrics...sheesh) to further the point I checked out completely.
Horoscopes are not facts.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Date: March 20, 2014 14:09

EDIT: I give up. Pollute this board with gossip and speculations from rags - as much as you like. I'm outta here...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-21 14:45 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: andrewt ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:25

Quote
Rokyfan
Quote
Dreamer
Quote
Rokyfan
Kill the messenger

I agree.
I don't mind if paulm is banned for suggestions like this "but I also think some of the wording is legal-ese, as in damage control, as in preventive measure to deflect potential civil suits. Before I get flamed, step outside the emotional and consider the implications: this is big business." in a place and at a time like this it's not about our opinions but about the decency to step back.

When someone died like this it's not about free speech or something. There is lots of personal grief and shock and even more just because of publications like this. People who insist that the RS are public property, even when a close friend or relative dies in the most shocking circumstances are bullying, not the other people who react to that by saying 'get out of here!' or 'shut up.'

It's more than tasteless to speculate about why LS has taken her life, about the relationship she had with MJ, about everything actually; people who are doing that just with the argument of freedom of speech are wrongfully using it and are intruders of the worst kind.
No you don't agree.

The phrase "kill the messenger" is sarcastic -- it means you don't like what the messenger is saying but instead of responding to the argument, you kill the messenger.

That's the tone of a lot of these messages, including yours. "We don't want to think that Mick left his long time lover before she killed herself so we sill castigate people who point it out."

You have the right to think something is tasteless, I just think it is silly to complain about people making what you see as tasteless comment on the internet. Tasteless is allowed.

Above all I am fan of Lennon: Gimme some Truth. The truth has a value all its own. It is good for the truth to be told and bad when things are covered up. That's my view. Stop the PR bullshit and give us the truth.

(the phrase apparently comes from an ancient practice -- when a messenger arrived with bad news, the messenger was killed. Today we call it banning [metaphorically]).

You call for banning someone is the MOST offensive and tasteless thing (to me) I have read on this thread.

Fully agree. Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink. It is utter hypocrisy given how people are reacting to the rumours. You are doing the same thing you are upset at others for doing. Recognize the difference between someone who has shown up out of nowhere to commen and long time posters who have demonstrated their ability to have a reasoned conversation. Challenge erroneous notions with clear facts and cogent arguments and they will fall by the wayside. One cannot pretend/wish/force this stuff away.
A happy little bubble that must be policed by vigilantes is inauthentic and of use to no one.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Date: March 20, 2014 14:33

EDIT: I give up. Pollute this board with gossip and speculations from rags - as much as you like. I'm outta here...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-21 14:45 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: KeithNacho ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:35

Let's all support Mick, the Stones and L'Wren's family in these sad and hard circumstances.
We love you!!!

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:41

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

It was never a question about that, that's hilarious.

If someone you knew died, and I sent you an e-mail minutes after that, saying that you pulled the plug - and that I don't feel any pity for you - would you thank me for "thinking out of the box"?

Christ!

It's always the question here. And how can you compare the death of Scott and theories/gossip/thoughts about Jagger to a friend dying? Geez.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Bliss ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:43

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Bliss
I am very glad you have concluded with that! Eventually...

<He pulled the plug. The funding plug and the emotional plug>
>>I am very glad you have concluded with that! Eventually...

<He pulled the plug. The funding plug and the emotional plug>

I was quoting MockJigger.

You sure did, and agreed:

<I would say this sums it up

>>He pulled the plug. The funding plug and the emotional plug.>

Yes, and I stand by it. But it is not how I personally would choose to express myself.

As I said, I do not consider anyone to 'blame' for this unfortunate event. Suicide is a result of pople wanting to end what they see as intolerable and unabating pain. But this story that Ms Scott ended her life over a business debt is almost insulting. If anything, it reflects worse on Mick! If I killed myself over a business failure, my husband, the big earner, would have some serious 'splaining to do to my irate family. And if he told them that I was too proud to ask for help, he might be wearing his jewels for earrings.

As pointed out above, no one should be a hostage in a marriage or romantic partnership, or stay because they fear the consequences of leaving. And I also think that if you choose to be involved with someone with a very chequered romantic past, you can expect history to repeat itself. And from his public statements, Mick never claimed to be in a permanent r'ship with L'Wren, nor was he ever unclear about his views on marriage.

But...emotions cannot always be contained. And I do believe this unintended, unexpected tragedy will cast a long shadow over Mick's life.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:43

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

It was never a question about that, that's hilarious.

If someone you knew died, and I sent you an e-mail minutes after that, saying that you pulled the plug - and that I don't feel any pity for you - would you thank me for "thinking out of the box"?

Christ!

I'm trying to stay on the sidelines here, but thanks Dandelion for calling bullsh*t when you see it.

I'm amazed that several days on here people haven't cooled down a bit with the rhetoric and hyperbole.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: andrewt ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:43

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

It was never a question about that, that's hilarious.

If someone you knew died, and I sent you an e-mail minutes after that, saying that you pulled the plug - and that I don't feel any pity for you - would you thank me for "thinking out of the box"?

Christ!

Who sent an e-mail to Mick? That's reductio ad absurdum.
If someone got too caught up in things and made a foolish comment without thinking it through, I suggest letting them know and guiding them back to reason in a spirit of friendliness and co-operation.
Banning a long time contributor over something like that is also an emotional overreaction.

To clarify my feelings on the events: I feel it is a sad tragedy for all involved. I have sympathy for all who have been affected. The various rumours and conjectures are as grounded in reality as the daily Horoscope.
As with anything in life, there are no simple answers no matter how much people crave them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-20 14:59 by andrewt.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Date: March 20, 2014 14:48

EDIT: I give up. Pollute this board with gossip and speculations from rags - as much as you like. I'm outta here...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-21 14:45 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: March 20, 2014 14:52

Quote
andrewt
Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

It was never a question about that, that's hilarious.

If someone you knew died, and I sent you an e-mail minutes after that, saying that you pulled the plug - and that I don't feel any pity for you - would you thank me for "thinking out of the box"?

Christ!

Who sent an e-mail to Mick? That's reductio ad absurdum.
If someone got too caught up in things and made a foolish comment without thinking it through, I suggest letting them know and guiding them back to reason in a spirit of friendliness and co-operation.
Banning a long time contributor over something like that is also an emotional overreaction.

Talking about reduction ad absurdum...you had a pretty good one yerself:

<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

I think pretty much everyone is dismayed at the banning, but what the hell has that got to do with Dandelion, or the price of tea in China?

Stay on topic Andrew.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: andrewt ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:01

Quote
treaclefingers
Quote
andrewt
Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

It was never a question about that, that's hilarious.

If someone you knew died, and I sent you an e-mail minutes after that, saying that you pulled the plug - and that I don't feel any pity for you - would you thank me for "thinking out of the box"?

Christ!

Who sent an e-mail to Mick? That's reductio ad absurdum.
If someone got too caught up in things and made a foolish comment without thinking it through, I suggest letting them know and guiding them back to reason in a spirit of friendliness and co-operation.
Banning a long time contributor over something like that is also an emotional overreaction.

Talking about reduction ad absurdum...you had a pretty good one yerself:

<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

I think pretty much everyone is dismayed at the banning, but what the hell has that got to do with Dandelion, or the price of tea in China?

Stay on topic Andrew.

Hooray, the system works! Duly noted, treacle.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:04

Quote
andrewt
Quote
treaclefingers
Quote
andrewt
Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

It was never a question about that, that's hilarious.

If someone you knew died, and I sent you an e-mail minutes after that, saying that you pulled the plug - and that I don't feel any pity for you - would you thank me for "thinking out of the box"?

Christ!

Who sent an e-mail to Mick? That's reductio ad absurdum.
If someone got too caught up in things and made a foolish comment without thinking it through, I suggest letting them know and guiding them back to reason in a spirit of friendliness and co-operation.
Banning a long time contributor over something like that is also an emotional overreaction.

Talking about reduction ad absurdum...you had a pretty good one yerself:

<Stop the witch-hunting and attempts to purge people who are not falling in line with the prescribed groupthink.>

I think pretty much everyone is dismayed at the banning, but what the hell has that got to do with Dandelion, or the price of tea in China?

Stay on topic Andrew.

Hooray, the system works! Duly noted, treacle.

I started celebrating but caught myself...damn, you were being sarcastic!

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Dreamer ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:06

Quote
Rokyfan
Quote
Dreamer
Quote
Rokyfan
Kill the messenger

I agree.
I don't mind if paulm is banned for suggestions like this "but I also think some of the wording is legal-ese, as in damage control, as in preventive measure to deflect potential civil suits. Before I get flamed, step outside the emotional and consider the implications: this is big business." in a place and at a time like this it's not about our opinions but about the decency to step back.

When someone died like this it's not about free speech or something. There is lots of personal grief and shock and even more just because of publications like this. People who insist that the RS are public property, even when a close friend or relative dies in the most shocking circumstances are bullying, not the other people who react to that by saying 'get out of here!' or 'shut up.'

It's more than tasteless to speculate about why LS has taken her life, about the relationship she had with MJ, about everything actually; people who are doing that just with the argument of freedom of speech are wrongfully using it and are intruders of the worst kind.
No you don't agree.

The phrase "kill the messenger" is sarcastic -- it means you don't like what the messenger is saying but instead of responding to the argument, you kill the messenger.

That's the tone of a lot of these messages, including yours. "We don't want to think that Mick left his long time lover before she killed herself so we sill castigate people who point it out."

You have the right to think something is tasteless, I just think it is silly to complain about people making what you see as tasteless comment on the internet. Tasteless is allowed.

Above all I am fan of Lennon: Gimme some Truth. The truth has a value all its own. It is good for the truth to be told and bad when things are covered up. That's my view. Stop the PR bullshit and give us the truth.

(the phrase apparently comes from an ancient practice -- when a messenger arrived with bad news, the messenger was killed. Today we call it banning [metaphorically]).

You call for banning someone is the MOST offensive and tasteless thing (to me) I have read on this thread.



Thanks for explaining, professor Sarcasm, however you missed something...

"...responding to the argument..."
When michaelsavage in reaction to some poster in this thread wrote:
"Yes, poor Mick needs to think about himself, not the tour", CindyC gave a 4 word reaction "You make me sick."

michaelsavage was giving an argument, CindyC wasn't.

Another post of CindyC was full of suggestions, speculation and not very well hidden accusations. Some quotes: "I do feel badly for Mick, but at the same time I'm thinking that this is his second girlfriend who attempted suicide (with one unfortunately succeeding).

I think having one partner attempting suicide would be cause to change my actions. Now again, completely speculating here, but I don't think he ever did after Marianne's attempt. He has always been "I'm Mick Jagger and I can do what I want, proceed at your own risk". I just don't think that's the way you should treat someone you care about. Especially if that person is obviously fragile.

L'wren did seem to be a strong woman, but Mick will ALWAYS have the upper-hand in the relationship. He is Mick Jagger after all. She may have started out thinking she could handle that and his dalliances, but it's got to wear you down after a while.

When your messages don't have one single argument but are just full of that kind of speculation and offensive and gossip-like suggestions you're not a "messenger".
So spare me your drama queen lyrics about "pr bullshit" and how you want "the truth"; go fight your freedom of speech war where it's necessary (and I will support you).

And since you say "Tasteless is allowed" and "You call for banning someone is the MOST offensive and tasteless thing (to me) I have read on this thread." I will seriously think about doing something you allow me to do, thank you!

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: proudmary ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:28

Quote
Bliss
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Bliss
I am very glad you have concluded with that! Eventually...

<He pulled the plug. The funding plug and the emotional plug>
>>I am very glad you have concluded with that! Eventually...

<He pulled the plug. The funding plug and the emotional plug>

I was quoting MockJigger.

You sure did, and agreed:

<I would say this sums it up

>>He pulled the plug. The funding plug and the emotional plug.>

Yes, and I stand by it. But it is not how I personally would choose to express myself.

As I said, I do not consider anyone to 'blame' for this unfortunate event. Suicide is a result of pople wanting to end what they see as intolerable and unabating pain. But this story that Ms Scott ended her life over a business debt is almost insulting. If anything, it reflects worse on Mick! If I killed myself over a business failure, my husband, the big earner, would have some serious 'splaining to do to my irate family. And if he told them that I was too proud to ask for help, he might be wearing his jewels for earrings.

As pointed out above, no one should be a hostage in a marriage or romantic partnership, or stay because they fear the consequences of leaving. And I also think that if you choose to be involved with someone with a very chequered romantic past, you can expect history to repeat itself. And from his public statements, Mick never claimed to be in a permanent r'ship with L'Wren, nor was he ever unclear about his views on marriage.

But...emotions cannot always be contained. And I do believe this unintended, unexpected tragedy will cast a long shadow over Mick's life.

If we are already talking about this why only blame Mick and his "chequered romantic past"? Many sources claim that Stones camp and Keith particularly did not like her. Keith called her names - L'Man and Yoko. It turns out that she was told that she couldn’t go on the Stones tour, it could be Mick did not want her there because of tensions with Keith and others.
It could have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Maybe this is the reason that they are all now in such shock and keep a united front, because everyone feels guilt.
You see, there is no end of speculations. After all we know absolutely nothing, so it's best not to guess what the reason or whom to blame.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: paulm ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:40

Guys, I'm acknowledging criticism here, in saying I'm sorry for trying to interpret this tragedy. I got caught up in reading too much, and in trying to make sense out of something that is beyond understanding.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Date: March 20, 2014 15:41

EDIT: I give up. Pollute this board with gossip and speculations from rags - as much as you like. I'm outta here...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-21 14:45 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:42

Quote
paulm
Guys, I'm acknowledging criticism here, in saying I'm sorry for trying to interpret this tragedy. I got caught up in reading too much, and in trying to make sense out of something that is beyond understanding.

Thanks very much for saying this.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Date: March 20, 2014 15:46

EDIT: I give up. Pollute this board with gossip and speculations from rags - as much as you like. I'm outta here...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-21 14:46 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Munichhilton ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:46

Quote
DandelionPowderman
@ proudmary:

That's why merely spreading unsubstantial rumours is not appropriate, shortly after someone died, imo.

I can't fathom that people think otherwise, but I'm gonna have to accept that, obviously - since it looks like the majority on IORR agree with this appraoch...

I don't know...proud or not, mary has essentially convinced me this is all Keith's fault...

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Dreamer ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:48

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
paulm
Guys, I'm acknowledging criticism here, in saying I'm sorry for trying to interpret this tragedy. I got caught up in reading too much, and in trying to make sense out of something that is beyond understanding.

thumbs up

+1 really great statement paulm. I respect that a lot!

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Bellajane ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:49

It's true there is no end to speculations and gossip, and I'm afraid it will get much worse before things calm down, especially in our 24/7 media-crazed society. I'm all for expressing oneself and, believe me, I've gotten into a few frays on this forum, so I'm not trying to be hypocritical. But out of respect for L'Wren, Mick, and family and friends; I just wish that this thread would be treated like a guest book in a church or funeral home where just condolences and fond remembrances be expressed. I think that was the original intent of this thread.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Date: March 20, 2014 15:52

EDIT: I give up. Pollute this board with gossip and speculations from rags - as much as you like. I'm outta here...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-21 14:46 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:54

Quote
Bellajane
It's true there is no end to speculations and gossip, and I'm afraid it will get much worse before things calm down, especially in our 24/7 media-crazed society. I'm all for expressing oneself and, believe me, I've gotten into a few frays on this forum, so I'm not trying to be hypocritical. But out of respect for L'Wren, Mick, and family and friends; I just wish that this thread would be treated like a guest book in a church or funeral home where just condolences and fond remembrances be expressed. I think that was the original intent of this thread.

Agree with you Bellajane...unfortunately early on the thread got pretty tainted with arguments and such.

Would be nice to just have a proper condolence thread where people could pay their respects and not get into a game of junior detective following clues dropped in various media reports.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Bliss ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:54

Quote
Munichhilton
Quote
DandelionPowderman
@ proudmary:

That's why merely spreading unsubstantial rumours is not appropriate, shortly after someone died, imo.

I can't fathom that people think otherwise, but I'm gonna have to accept that, obviously - since it looks like the majority on IORR agree with this appraoch...

I don't know...proud or not, mary has essentially convinced me this is all Keith's fault...

Keith had a problem with Bianca and Jerry too.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: March 20, 2014 15:58

Quote
Bliss
Quote
Munichhilton
Quote
DandelionPowderman
@ proudmary:

That's why merely spreading unsubstantial rumours is not appropriate, shortly after someone died, imo.

I can't fathom that people think otherwise, but I'm gonna have to accept that, obviously - since it looks like the majority on IORR agree with this appraoch...

I don't know...proud or not, mary has essentially convinced me this is all Keith's fault...

Keith had a problem with Bianca and Jerry too.

because they got too close to his one great love.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Date: March 20, 2014 15:59

EDIT: I give up. Pollute this board with gossip and speculations from rags - as much as you like. I'm outta here...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-21 14:46 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Dreamer ()
Date: March 20, 2014 16:02

Quote
Bliss
Quote
Munichhilton
Quote
DandelionPowderman
@ proudmary:

That's why merely spreading unsubstantial rumours is not appropriate, shortly after someone died, imo.

I can't fathom that people think otherwise, but I'm gonna have to accept that, obviously - since it looks like the majority on IORR agree with this appraoch...

I don't know...proud or not, mary has essentially convinced me this is all Keith's fault...

Keith had a problem with Bianca and Jerry too.


Every once in a while Keith's biggest problem is Keith.

Re: R.I.P. L'Wren Scott :- (
Posted by: Dreamer ()
Date: March 20, 2014 16:04

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Bliss
Quote
Munichhilton
Quote
DandelionPowderman
@ proudmary:

That's why merely spreading unsubstantial rumours is not appropriate, shortly after someone died, imo.

I can't fathom that people think otherwise, but I'm gonna have to accept that, obviously - since it looks like the majority on IORR agree with this appraoch...

I don't know...proud or not, mary has essentially convinced me this is all Keith's fault...

Keith had a problem with Bianca and Jerry too.

So did Mick...

smiling smiley

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