Tell Me :
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Well, if you have enough of good acid, any song will sound awesome under those circumstances. At least, what that's what I heard the 'big boys' say...>
<
- Doxa
A campfire? Who does campfires? Do you mean social gatherings? Who does that?
The rest of us talentless faceless baseless people have a song as a private personal accompaniment to an activity.
Oohhh high praise from the Hairball ;-). Glad you like it so much. Now I’m going to have to play it later.
Yes - in the context of the post Tattoo You era, I suppose you can consider it high praise.
I also like Rain Fall Down (or is it Fell Down?), but not quite as much and wouldn't consider it truly great in any context.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Toast a marshmallow first! You’ll want S’mores for this.
Yes, and if it's good - it's good, right?
Haha, yeah, I share his sentiments. Many times it is quite the contrary: if there happens to be a (great) guitar solo, it is more like a pleasent surprise: a great Rolling Stones song with a great solo... For example, one reason why the incredible, outstanding solo of original "Sympathy For The Devil" is such out-standing is that is a rather unique piece in ther catalogue and serves that song so perfectly. They didn't over-used that 'trick'...
Generally I think the Stones are usually great in doing their arrangements serving the songs - it is not just picking up 'right' instruments and doing with them what is needed to serve the song in a best way, but also structuring the songs themselves.. altering mildy the verses and melodies throughout the songs, knowing when adding some extra beat or part, some rather unorthodoxical choices, like leaving some middle eights out if needed, or sometimes adding something 'completely different', etc. Some of it might be intuitive, a result of human errors, even pure laziness, etc. but it usually sounds damn 'natural' - they have a sort of 'touch' in keeping the songs exciting, lively pieces, as 'stories'.. The little dramatics that mean so much. An important part of Jagger/Richards writing process is what they do with their song sketches in a studio.
I recall - to go memory line - at the time when I started listening to the Stones as a young kid, one of the things just really hit me home was 'studying' their songs, for example, from a point of song writing and arrangement. They were extraordinary, lots of little things that was totally unhearable for my naive ears that were used to more 'normal' guitar-based rock music. The Stones sounded like having their own rules. Even when playing a standard 12-bar blues or simple chuckberry-style rock pattern (especially the Pathe Marconi material comes to mind, explicated in albums from SOME GIRLS to TATTOO YOU, as I knew at the time).
But that said, as far as "Saint of Me" go, and no matter how much I like the song and think it as one of their best latter-day songs, it is a rather orthodoxical, musically 'by-the-numbers' piece in their catalogue, like almost any 'latter-day' song, and doesn't any longer possess those qualities (I described above) I so much admired back in the day. The 'test' is that its charm vanishes quite quickly - it is rather obvious-sounding piece, with some too obvious-sounding musical choices, and after a few listenings there is not much to excite imagination any longer. But I like it if I only doesn't listen it too often...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-15 03:47 by Doxa.
I concur. There is nothing - at all - unique about Saint Of Me. It is by-the-numbers, regardless of how it's produced. It's safe. All The Way Down is much more interesting (to me) and has "not normal" changes in it, even though it's a very straight forward tune (with excellent vocals and some nice guitar and drums).
Part of their wonkiness with time signatures (ie 12.78 bar blues like Cook Cook Blues) can be lost with editing. She Was Hot, as it is on the LP, is a bit off when you listen to the unedited version (which is the one in video) - yet we're used to the LP version and it's "right".
Some songs are edited to not have that wonkiness - Miss You, Everything Is Turning To Gold, quite a few others. Then there are tunes that seem to be straight forward that have an odd timing lilt to them, like Tumbling Dice or Jigsaw Puzzle. They mysteries of timing have long been gone with the Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-15 16:38 by GasLightStreet.
I liked the remix better... but it's still not very interesting. Not every song works out well. This is one of them.
It was better live, really. The version on NO SECURITY is decent.
No, allegedly they were not able to reach an agreement to retain Dave Matthews' duet and chose not to do the merciful thing and replace it with a version of "Memory Motel" without him.
There had been talk of releasing an expanded version utilizing additional recordings from 1997-1999. Not sure if it was just suggested or if real progress was made. I imagine it would be relegated to Eagle Records / Ward Records now as part of FROM THE VAULT if it were to happen.
It still came up in the set in 2003? That's a glimmer of hope. They dusted off Sad Sad Sad in search of something fresh so this one should be a no-brainer
They still do the latter quite often, though.
Their undying devotion to YGMR after 26 years is baffling. Sure, it's probably easy to play and uptempo, but it's empty calories.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 11, 2017 20:42
Quote
DandelionPowderman
IMO, a good song can be played around a campfire, without any solos, and still be awesome. That's the acid test, really.
Well, if you have enough of good acid, any song will sound awesome under those circumstances. At least, what that's what I heard the 'big boys' say...>
<- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: December 11, 2017 20:50
There are many great rock and roll songs that have no guitar solos whatsoever.
For example, Roger waters newest has no guitar solos, and some old school Pink Floyd fans were up in arms about because it went up against their belief system.
Whether it's a good album or not is debatable (I happen to love it) but I don't think that rests with the decision to have no guitar solos one way or the other, and I don't think any would have improved it.
A few here and there might have been nice perhaps, but the album stands on it's own merits and as a complete piece. And then there's alot of great punk songs that have no guitar solos whatsoever.
And there's some Who songs that have no guitar solos to speak of, yet are great as they are. Would Saint of Me been better had it been given a guitar solo? Maybe...maybe not...maybe a stinging wah wah laden Mick Taylor solo ala 100 Years Ago would have taken it to the stratosphere, but then again probably unnecessary.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
For example, Roger waters newest has no guitar solos, and some old school Pink Floyd fans were up in arms about because it went up against their belief system.
Whether it's a good album or not is debatable (I happen to love it) but I don't think that rests with the decision to have no guitar solos one way or the other, and I don't think any would have improved it.
A few here and there might have been nice perhaps, but the album stands on it's own merits and as a complete piece. And then there's alot of great punk songs that have no guitar solos whatsoever.
And there's some Who songs that have no guitar solos to speak of, yet are great as they are. Would Saint of Me been better had it been given a guitar solo? Maybe...maybe not...maybe a stinging wah wah laden Mick Taylor solo ala 100 Years Ago would have taken it to the stratosphere, but then again probably unnecessary.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
wanderingspirit66
()
Date: December 11, 2017 21:24
I distinctly recall a Mark Knopfler interview from the 80s. His quote was something to the effect "When I put on a great Rolling Stones record, I never wonder, god forbid, where's the solo?"
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: December 11, 2017 22:58
Quote
DandelionPowderman
IMO, a good song can be played around a campfire, without any solos, and still be awesome. That's the acid test, really.
I wouldn't mind a great solo, though, but it doesn't make or break a song for me.
A campfire? Who does campfires? Do you mean social gatherings? Who does that?
The rest of us talentless faceless baseless people have a song as a private personal accompaniment to an activity.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: December 11, 2017 23:01
Quote
HairballQuote
TheGreek
Probably my favorite track from Bridges to Babylon esp. Billy Preston's B3 Fill .I remember when this first came out and I was loving the B3 Fill and then I found out it was the late great Billy Preston's B3 Organ ,which to me was pretty wild .
Yes, and there's something hypnotic the way the tune starts minimally almost as if it's a live take and then builds momentum and escalates when Charlies drums kick in.
And then it switches gears with ..."I thought I heard an angel cry"... It's the best off of Bridges, and the last of the great original Stones songs imo.
Oohhh high praise from the Hairball ;-). Glad you like it so much. Now I’m going to have to play it later.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: December 11, 2017 23:10
Quote
35loveQuote
HairballQuote
TheGreek
Probably my favorite track from Bridges to Babylon esp. Billy Preston's B3 Fill .I remember when this first came out and I was loving the B3 Fill and then I found out it was the late great Billy Preston's B3 Organ ,which to me was pretty wild .
Yes, and there's something hypnotic the way the tune starts minimally almost as if it's a live take and then builds momentum and escalates when Charlies drums kick in.
And then it switches gears with ..."I thought I heard an angel cry"... It's the best off of Bridges, and the last of the great original Stones songs imo.
Oohhh high praise from the Hairball ;-). Glad you like it so much. Now I’m going to have to play it later.
Yes - in the context of the post Tattoo You era, I suppose you can consider it high praise.
I also like Rain Fall Down (or is it Fell Down?), but not quite as much and wouldn't consider it truly great in any context.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
SomeTorontoGirl
()
Date: December 11, 2017 23:46
Quote
35love
Oohhh high praise from the Hairball ;-). Glad you like it so much. Now I’m going to have to play it later.
Toast a marshmallow first! You’ll want S’mores for this.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 11, 2017 23:51
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
IMO, a good song can be played around a campfire, without any solos, and still be awesome. That's the acid test, really.
Well, if you have enough of good acid, any song will sound awesome under those circumstances. At least, what that's what I heard the 'big boys' say...>
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 11, 2017 23:53
Quote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
DandelionPowderman
IMO, a good song can be played around a campfire, without any solos, and still be awesome. That's the acid test, really.
I wouldn't mind a great solo, though, but it doesn't make or break a song for me.
Fair enough, but do you consider Santana's Samba Pa Ti to be a great (instrumental ) song ? I do. Torn an Frayed is a great song as well. So there must be something in between. That's all I wanna say : it's not always black or white in music, at least to me.
Yes, and if it's good - it's good, right?
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 15, 2017 03:42
Quote
wanderingspirit66
I distinctly recall a Mark Knopfler interview from the 80s. His quote was something to the effect "When I put on a great Rolling Stones record, I never wonder, god forbid, where's the solo?"
Haha, yeah, I share his sentiments. Many times it is quite the contrary: if there happens to be a (great) guitar solo, it is more like a pleasent surprise: a great Rolling Stones song with a great solo... For example, one reason why the incredible, outstanding solo of original "Sympathy For The Devil" is such out-standing is that is a rather unique piece in ther catalogue and serves that song so perfectly. They didn't over-used that 'trick'...
Generally I think the Stones are usually great in doing their arrangements serving the songs - it is not just picking up 'right' instruments and doing with them what is needed to serve the song in a best way, but also structuring the songs themselves.. altering mildy the verses and melodies throughout the songs, knowing when adding some extra beat or part, some rather unorthodoxical choices, like leaving some middle eights out if needed, or sometimes adding something 'completely different', etc. Some of it might be intuitive, a result of human errors, even pure laziness, etc. but it usually sounds damn 'natural' - they have a sort of 'touch' in keeping the songs exciting, lively pieces, as 'stories'.. The little dramatics that mean so much. An important part of Jagger/Richards writing process is what they do with their song sketches in a studio.
I recall - to go memory line - at the time when I started listening to the Stones as a young kid, one of the things just really hit me home was 'studying' their songs, for example, from a point of song writing and arrangement. They were extraordinary, lots of little things that was totally unhearable for my naive ears that were used to more 'normal' guitar-based rock music. The Stones sounded like having their own rules. Even when playing a standard 12-bar blues or simple chuckberry-style rock pattern (especially the Pathe Marconi material comes to mind, explicated in albums from SOME GIRLS to TATTOO YOU, as I knew at the time).
But that said, as far as "Saint of Me" go, and no matter how much I like the song and think it as one of their best latter-day songs, it is a rather orthodoxical, musically 'by-the-numbers' piece in their catalogue, like almost any 'latter-day' song, and doesn't any longer possess those qualities (I described above) I so much admired back in the day. The 'test' is that its charm vanishes quite quickly - it is rather obvious-sounding piece, with some too obvious-sounding musical choices, and after a few listenings there is not much to excite imagination any longer. But I like it if I only doesn't listen it too often...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-15 03:47 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 15, 2017 06:02
Quote
Doxa
But that said, as far as "Saint of Me" go, and no matter how much I like the song and think it as one of their best latter-day songs, it is a rather orthodoxical, musically 'by-the-numbers' piece in their catalogue, like almost any 'latter-day' song, and doesn't any longer possess those qualities (I described above) I so much admired back in the day. The 'test' is that its charm vanishes quite quickly - it is rather obvious-sounding piece, with some too obvious-sounding musical choices, and after a few listenings there is not much to excite imagination any longer. But I like it if I only doesn't listen it too often...
- Doxa
I concur. There is nothing - at all - unique about Saint Of Me. It is by-the-numbers, regardless of how it's produced. It's safe. All The Way Down is much more interesting (to me) and has "not normal" changes in it, even though it's a very straight forward tune (with excellent vocals and some nice guitar and drums).
Part of their wonkiness with time signatures (ie 12.78 bar blues like Cook Cook Blues) can be lost with editing. She Was Hot, as it is on the LP, is a bit off when you listen to the unedited version (which is the one in video) - yet we're used to the LP version and it's "right".
Some songs are edited to not have that wonkiness - Miss You, Everything Is Turning To Gold, quite a few others. Then there are tunes that seem to be straight forward that have an odd timing lilt to them, like Tumbling Dice or Jigsaw Puzzle. They mysteries of timing have long been gone with the Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-15 16:38 by GasLightStreet.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: December 15, 2017 07:05
Yeah, I can’t do this song.
Tried the video again I said I would frankly green blue Mick is too distracting tonight I watched it in full before but I’m not a video person,
and to be honest the studio production ‘sound’ on album releases after 1981
very difficult to get past.
Tried the video again I said I would frankly green blue Mick is too distracting tonight I watched it in full before but I’m not a video person,
and to be honest the studio production ‘sound’ on album releases after 1981
very difficult to get past.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
bitusa2012
()
Date: December 15, 2017 11:24
I loved it when I first heard it, then gradually thru the years the shine wore off. Like me, in fact, it has not aged well.
Rod
Rod
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: December 15, 2017 19:07
You are 100% correct that the new Roger Waters album does not feature the classic David Gilmour guitar solos , but I can listen to it and enjoy it non the less and I am a guitarist myself and I kind of like the way Roger Waters crafted the songs on the new album because it's not Floyd and Gilmour is not part of the Rodger band or recording unit .This is after all post Floyd era but yet still stays true to the Floydian esqe style which I dearly love .Back to Saint of Me -which is a beauty to me because of the way that Billy Preston speaks thru his Hammond B3 Organ , such a beautiful sound ( Chuck did a nice job live with it but it's just not the same) .One of my big regrets is not being able to witness The late Great Billy Preston with the Glimmer Twins live in concert especially the 1975 North American tour .Quote
Hairball
There are many great rock and roll songs that have no guitar solos whatsoever.
For example, Roger waters newest has no guitar solos, and some old school Pink Floyd fans were up in arms about because it went up against their belief system.
Whether it's a good album or not is debatable (I happen to love it) but I don't think that rests with the decision to have no guitar solos one way or the other, and I don't think any would have improved it.
A few here and there might have been nice perhaps, but the album stands on it's own merits and as a complete piece. And then there's alot of great punk songs that have no guitar solos whatsoever.
And there's some Who songs that have no guitar solos to speak of, yet are great as they are. Would Saint of Me been better had it been given a guitar solo? Maybe...maybe not...maybe a stinging wah wah laden Mick Taylor solo ala 100 Years Ago would have taken it to the stratosphere, but then again probably unnecessary.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
Testify
()
Date: December 16, 2017 02:06
Traditionally the Rolling Stones have always made an essential rock, simple, rhythmic, only occasionally have explored other land, which is not theirs anyway. These are the Rolling Stones that I have always loved from Satisfaction to cover blues!
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 16, 2017 02:27
Quote
bitusa2012
I loved it when I first heard it, then gradually thru the years the shine wore off. Like me, in fact, it has not aged well.
I liked the remix better... but it's still not very interesting. Not every song works out well. This is one of them.
It was better live, really. The version on NO SECURITY is decent.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 16, 2017 02:31
Did NO SECURITY ever get brickwalled and reissued by UMe?
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: December 16, 2017 03:21
what happens when they hit a brick-wall while brickwalling ??????????
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 16, 2017 04:03
Quote
GasLightStreet
Did NO SECURITY ever get brickwalled and reissued by UMe?
No, allegedly they were not able to reach an agreement to retain Dave Matthews' duet and chose not to do the merciful thing and replace it with a version of "Memory Motel" without him.
There had been talk of releasing an expanded version utilizing additional recordings from 1997-1999. Not sure if it was just suggested or if real progress was made. I imagine it would be relegated to Eagle Records / Ward Records now as part of FROM THE VAULT if it were to happen.
Re: Track Talk: Saint Of Me
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 16, 2017 04:56
The duet thing... I remember some people thinking an entire live album of them would be a good idea.
Well they should put Memory Motel on it without Matthews. Certainly there are quite a few other shows they can draw from with it recorded.
An expanded version of NO SECURITY would be great - if they stick with the way the album is and not include the usual. Considering the time they recorded those shows, they could add:
Let's Spend The Night Together
Under My Thumb
Little Queenie
Wanna Hold You
All About You
Bitch
She's A Rainbow
Fool To Cry
Tumbling Dice
Crazy Mama
Well they should put Memory Motel on it without Matthews. Certainly there are quite a few other shows they can draw from with it recorded.
An expanded version of NO SECURITY would be great - if they stick with the way the album is and not include the usual. Considering the time they recorded those shows, they could add:
Let's Spend The Night Together
Under My Thumb
Little Queenie
Wanna Hold You
All About You
Bitch
She's A Rainbow
Fool To Cry
Tumbling Dice
Crazy Mama
Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
Nikkei
()
Date: January 8, 2020 16:02
I have re-watched the 1998 St.Louis DVD and the first peculiar thing that I didn't really notice before is that there seems to be a monotonous track of a cheering audience laid over all of it. After Saint Of Me, that constant cheer goes on but there seems to be absolutely no one joining in on the chorus. Mick sneers at the crowd and finishes the song after three seconds. Then I noticed that the San Jose 99 performance on YT cuts off there (don't have that DVD) In my opinion the singalong was the main factor that turned Saint Of Me into a standout live number. At my first ever show they let us sing, then restarted the chorus, stopped again and the crowd volume doubled before they ended the song proper. Our singalong turned into a canon and lasted two further minutes (listen to the Stuttgart 99 boot) I didn't see Buenos Aires but I would imagine it was also pretty wild. Now I wonder if the US audiences are generally not the singing type of crowd or if it has to do with the subject matter of the song? Do they believe they have a shot at canonization if they resist such blasphemy? Is this song more controversial than I realize?
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
Nikkei
()
Date: January 8, 2020 16:04
Oh and I would really love to see this song back in the set. It just works live, could be even better than OOC in recent years
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
georgie48
()
Date: January 8, 2020 16:55
At all the concerts in the Netherlands where they performed Saint Of Me, the crowd was very enthousiastic to say the least. I also noticed that the audiences in the USA were much less "into it". You suggest a possible explanation, but I find it difficult to join you there. It could just be a cultural thing.
While we think we are very enthousiastic, I experienced Latino fans in general (live in Argentina! and from videos) easily beat us on this. I doubt if the lyrics have anything to do with it. It's simply a great sing-along song.
While we think we are very enthousiastic, I experienced Latino fans in general (live in Argentina! and from videos) easily beat us on this. I doubt if the lyrics have anything to do with it. It's simply a great sing-along song.
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
Topi
()
Date: January 8, 2020 17:02
Speaking of the Dutch and this song, the Vredenburg 2003 theater show comes to mind!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-08 17:04 by Topi.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-08 17:04 by Topi.
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
spunky
()
Date: January 8, 2020 17:10
Watch Bremen 98 one of the best crowd sing-alongs.
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: January 8, 2020 17:13
I thought both Saint of Me and OOC had the potential to become latter-day warhorses. Not sure why it didn't materialize.
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
Nikkei
()
Date: January 8, 2020 17:29
Quote
Topi
Speaking of the Dutch and this song, the Vredenburg 2003 theater show comes to mind!
It still came up in the set in 2003? That's a glimmer of hope. They dusted off Sad Sad Sad in search of something fresh so this one should be a no-brainer
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 8, 2020 17:31
Quote
keefriff99
I thought both Saint of Me and OOC had the potential to become latter-day warhorses. Not sure why it didn't materialize.
They still do the latter quite often, though.
Re: Saint Of Me Audience Participation
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: January 8, 2020 17:41
Yeah, but not enough to qualify as a 'warhorse'...I'd rather hear OOC over, say, You Got Me Rocking, any day.Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
keefriff99
I thought both Saint of Me and OOC had the potential to become latter-day warhorses. Not sure why it didn't materialize.
They still do the latter quite often, though.
Their undying devotion to YGMR after 26 years is baffling. Sure, it's probably easy to play and uptempo, but it's empty calories.
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