After looking at the credits of Happy and realizing only Keith and Mick (of the core band) played on it, was wondering what other released songs (through 1974), did not have Brian, Charlie, Bill or Mick Taylor playing on it? Be interesting to get as complete as possible catalog of songs, but I realize it will be hard to be 100% accurate!

A few to start off with:

Play with Fire (missing Brian, Charlie and Bill)

You Can't Always Get What You Want (missing Brian and Charlie)

Happy (missing Charlie, Bill and Mick T.)

Tumbling Dice (missing Bill)

As Tears Go By?

IIRC Brian was absent from a good deal of Beggars' Banquet and most of Let It Bleed as well.

On Sticky Fingers, Taylor is missing from Sister Morphine. Is Bill on You Gotta Move? I haven't listened to it in a while but in my mind it sounds like Jagger/Charlie/Keith and MT doubling up the slide part.

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DandelionPowderman
As Tears Go By?

Yeah, Mick and Keith only.

What about Prodigal Son? Was Brian or Bill on it? Who plays the Harmonica?

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2000 LYFH


What about Prodigal Son? Was Brian or Bill on it? Who plays the Harmonica?

Brian.

She Smiled Sweetly(missing Brian and Bill)

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BJPortugal
She Smiled Sweetly(missing Brian and Bill)

It's possible that isn't true.

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2000 LYFH

Happy (missing Charlie, Bill and Mick T.)

Bill and Mick T. are on "Happy" according to official credits found in the booklet from the 2010 remaster of Exile on Main St.

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Screamer

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2000 LYFH

Happy (missing Charlie, Bill and Mick T.)

Bill and Mick T. are on "Happy" according to official credits found in the booklet from the 2010 remaster of Exile on Main St.

Those credits are not correct.

Here's the opposite: "Heaven". Just Mick, Bill, and Charlie. Is that the only Stones track without either of the guitar tandem present?

There have to be a couple of Dirty Work or Undercover tracks where Bill left early and Charlie didn't show up at all due to his "midlife crisis". "Back To Zero", maybe? "Feel On Baby"?

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His Majesty

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BJPortugal
She Smiled Sweetly(missing Brian and Bill)

It's possible that isn't true.

Well, my assertion is based on Keith words:

I had forgotten how hauntingly nice that is. We did it in two takes and I played bass, organ, guitar, and piano on it. Charlie played drums and Mick sang it. It was just the three of us. And suddenly that came back to me (while we've been rehearsing it) and I saw us in the studio.
- Keith Richards, 2002

Yes, but he's forgotten that Jack, according to Mick in 1967, plays the piano, so maybe he forget that Bill plays bass as well etc.

There is no guitar on it.

Bill plays electric piano on you gotta move.

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His Majesty
Yes, but he's forgotten that Jack, according to Mick in 1967, plays the piano, so maybe he forget that Bill plays bass as well etc.

There is no guitar on it.

Indeed

I wished that we know more about the Aftermath/BTB sessions...

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BJPortugal

I wished that we know more about the Aftermath/BTB sessions...

Aftermath is a bit better due to the album credits.

There's very little actual info on Between The Buttons from the people involved.

Brian was MIA for the session that produced the final released version of Satisfaction.

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stonehearted
Brian was MIA for the session that produced the final released version of Satisfaction.

Supporting quotes would be helpful.

Seen this said here a lot, but can't recall any quotes on the matter.

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His Majesty

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stonehearted
Brian was MIA for the session that produced the final released version of Satisfaction.

Supporting quotes would be helpful.

Seen this said here a lot, but can't recall any quotes on the matter.

I'm surprised nobody's asked the band (or Andrew) about this, with all the "Brian: Was he there or not?" banter. I know it's a can that's been opened many times here, but I still think it's Brian on acoustic.

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SilverBlanket
Bill plays electric piano on you gotta move.

can't recall seeing that in the credits, or hearing an electric piano on YGM, for that matter?

Maybe you mean the live rendition of Fingerprint File on LYL?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-19 22:21 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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SilverBlanket
Bill plays electric piano on you gotta move.

can't recall seeing that in the credits, or hearing an electric piano on YGM, for that matter?

Maybe you mean the live rendition of Fingerprint File on LYL?

It's on the credits on the album and clearly audible on the recording.

Listen especially from about 2 mins. Sound like a tremolo guitar a bit, but that's Bill on electric piano.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

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SilverBlanket
Bill plays electric piano on you gotta move.

can't recall seeing that in the credits, or hearing an electric piano on YGM, for that matter?

Maybe you mean the live rendition of Fingerprint File on LYL?

It's on the credits on the album and clearly audible on the recording.

Listen especially from about 2 mins. Sound like a tremolo guitar a bit, but that's Bill on electric piano.

Weird that I hadn't noticed that before. Thanks to you both for enlightening me

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stonehearted
Brian was MIA for the session that produced the final released version of Satisfaction.

I actually had the chance to speak with Andrew Oldham when he came to Aberdeen to screen Charlie is my darling a few years back.I specifically asked him if Brian was on the released version of satisfaction and he said definitely, that he and Keith had layered several acoustic tracks down.

In another recent Beatles-related thread, I quoted an official first-hand source in a discussion about a particular recording session, and this source of information was discounted by almost everyone here in favor of a research biographer. The reason: People who were actually there tend to "misremember" things.

So, it's great that you have confirmation from someone who was there like ALO.... However, I can't seem to find an actual reliable data source that lists Brian as having been at that session, and various accounts of Brian not having been present for that particular session have survived for a reason.... What we need is proof.


Mick Jagger at RCA Studios on May 12, 1965.

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BJPortugal
Well, my assertion is based on Keith words:

I had forgotten how hauntingly nice that is. We did it in two takes and I played bass, organ, guitar, and piano on it [[i]She Smiled Sweetly[/i]]. Charlie played drums and Mick sang it. It was just the three of us. And suddenly that came back to me (while we've been rehearsing it) and I saw us in the studio.
- Keith Richards, 2002

A typically (and how typically, actually!) anachronistic mystifying Keith quote that only shows the way he wants the band to be perceived today in retrospect (as a Mick, Keith, Charlie unit from day one) and that hasn't any value for historical fact finding.

Firstly, as Majesty already said, there's no guitar on it at all. Secondly, if he'd actually overdubbed three instruments he'd probably remembered more playing alone on it than that it had been just two takes.
Comparing the organ part of She Smiled Sweetly with that of That's How Strong My Love Is live in Melbourne on 24 Feb. 1966 I could imagine it is the same player, Brian. Both parts have a simular dramatic feel. (If Keith didn't play all the instruments in Melbourne as well, who knows!)
The bass on She Smiled Sweetly sounds very much like Keith - the same imprecise nervousness you hear on Let's Spend The Night Together and Sympathy For The Devil and never on Bill's parts.
The piano could be any keyboard playing member of the group; Bill credits Brian, Keith, himself and even Mick for Between The Buttons (and additionally Stu, Jack Nitzsche and Nicky Hopkins, although this contradicts Nicky's own memory, I'd like to add quickly before Majesty does), see Rolling With The Stones, p. 258.

I assume there is quite a large portion of original Stones on the track. Bill Wyman says about 5 Feb. 1967: "That night we appeared on the Eamonn Andrews show. We arrived, expecting to mime 'Let's Spend The Night Together', but the Musicians Union prevented this, insisting we play live. After much wrangling we substituted 'She Smiled Sweetly' from our new album." (Stone Alone, p. 482, paperback issue.)
In Rolling With the comment is: "There was not enough time to rehearse the new number [LSTNT], so we did 'She Smiled Sweetly' [...]", p. 259.
A band would usually choose a song they are all ready to play in case they have to make a quick decision, and since the Stones had played this song only in the studio before (as far as we know), it's a solid guess to assume the piano had been played by Bill or he felt he could take over on bass without "enough time to rehearse". The Keith scenario - he played it all - is unrealistic in every respect.

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stonehearted
Brian was MIA for the session that produced the final released version of Satisfaction.

That old rumour. I read it first in Norman's pretty badly researched book - I guess its origin comes from the fact most people don't hear the acoustic guitar, because it's not very present in the mix. I vividly remember a discussion years ago on iorr, in which big expert Mathijs mistook the non-distorted leadguitar parts for the acoustic and used a photo (indeed, no joke!) from the Aftermath sessions (no joke again!) showing Keith with an acoustic as proof that Keith played the acoustic on Satisfaction.

Allow me to quote Mathijs in 2009: "The acoustic does sound like Keith, it's very remeniscent of his later acoustic work on for example Beggars. And, there's a very early version of the Stones miming the song on TV (it's on youtube), and Jones is seen miming the acoustic: he clearly does not know the chords. [Mathijs has never failed to amuse me, M.J.]
Last, I disagree with your [Mock Jogger's] view on the acoustic guitar: it's sheer brilliance to only have acoustic in the verses, it's so much more powerfull than any other instrument could have been." [www.iorr.org]

(My view was: the acoustic isn't that important - see my modification of that view below, but it's certainly still not the most important thing on the record.)
Since Mathijs compared the style of the acoustic with that of Beggars - when actually the acoustic on Satisfaction plays plain rhythm - and only noticed it in the verses - when actually it's been played right through from the third bar on, except for the short breaks - he obviously talks indeed about the not-distorted parts of the electric guitar, as absurd as it is.

Bill says on the recording sessions at RCA on 12 May 1965: "After we listened to the master [of Satisfaction], we discussed whether it should be the next single, as Andrew and Dave Hassinger, our patient recording engineer, were so positive about it. We put it on the vote. Andrew, Dave, Stu, Brian, Charlie and I voted yes, while Mick and Keith voted no. The majority carried the day: it would be our next single. In later years, Mick always said that only Keith was doubtful about it." (Stone Alone, p. 380)

Brian's acoustic is coming in after the two intro bars together with the drums. (If you have sense for it you'll notice that this is the point the rhythm is getting some stability that is seriously lacking in the intro. If you have even more sense for it, you'll notice that Brian's part in that is even larger than that of Charlie. You can balance the insecurity of two or more co-players being not together by playing somewhere in the middle trying to fill the gaps, not completely, of course, but you can improve the general feel, and the recording of Satisfaction is a perfect example. That function Brian fulfilled often enough in his rhythm guitar years. It goes without saying that this is completely overlooked by most Stones fans who religiously believe shaky Keith was technically better than Brian.)

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tomk
I'm surprised nobody's asked the band (or Andrew) about this, with all the "Brian: Was he there or not?" banter. I know it's a can that's been opened many times here, but I still think it's Brian on acoustic.

At the time we are talking about this wasn't a topic at all. The Stones were a five piece band that increasingly used guests to get a bigger and/or more diverse sound. At the same time they felt free to try everything in the studio, hence a credit for 4 of 5 members for keyboards on one album, see above. (It wasn't just Brian experimenting, with the exception of Charlie all of them were involved in it.)
There is no hard evidence that Brian was massively absent in the studio - in the sense of a degree that would endanger his position as a bandmember - before his second bust on 21 May 1968, and even for later recording sessions it's very hard to say anything specific. (But there are definitely increasingly less to none Brian-typical parts on Stones recordings from that point on.)
"Brian was absent all the time" became the main theme for later attempts by Mick and Keith to make the complete Stones history the story of those two instead of that of a five (or, including Stu, six) piece band. A very Stalinist approach.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pushing you in puddles/In the dead of night/Beware of ABKCO"
George Harrison, early Beware Of Darkness version (1970)

<<Allow me to quote Mathijs in 2009: "The acoustic does sound like Keith, it's very remeniscent of his later acoustic work on for example Beggars. And, there's a very early version of the Stones miming the song on TV (it's on youtube), and Jones is seen miming the acoustic: he clearly does not know the chords. [Mathijs has never failed to amuse me, M.J.]
Last, I disagree with your [Mock Jogger's] view on the acoustic guitar: it's sheer brilliance to only have acoustic in the verses, it's so much more powerfull than any other instrument could have been." [www.iorr.org]>>

What a coincidence! I was actually reading that very 2009 thread when you posted.

<<overlooked by most Stones fans who religiously believe shaky Keith was technically better than Brian>>

"Shaky" Keith? Well, I've heard some early takes of tracks recorded in 1968 with Brian on acoustic first then Keith overdubbed on acoustic. Brian's parts sounded flat and uninventive, whereas Keith was clearly showing more flair for the instrument at that point than Brian--but that was a year when he was missing a lot of sessions and had indeed become the shaky one.

<<Bill says on the recording sessions at RCA on 12 May 1965: "After we listened to the master [of Satisfaction], we discussed whether it should be the next single, as Andrew and Dave Hassinger, our patient recording engineer, were so positive about it. We put it on the vote. Andrew, Dave, Stu, Brian, Charlie and I voted yes, while Mick and Keith voted no. The majority carried the day: it would be our next single. In later years, Mick always said that only Keith was doubtful about it." (Stone Alone, p. 380)>>

I'm well aware of Bill's above account--however, according to a recent Beatles-related thread, it has been decided by the majority of posters here that accounts of people who were there are no longer considered to hold any merit, due to their tendency to "misremember" things--only those of biographical researchers will be considered the final official word.

That said, we know from the account of George Buetow from opening act the Missing Links that Brian appeared for the gig at Chicago's Arie Crown Theater on May 9 [www.60sgaragebands.com], but how effective would he have been in recording sessions in subsequent days, due to the cracked ribs he had received at the hands of tour manager Mike Dorsey in Clearwater just days before?

I still see no proof that Brian actually plays on it. I will accept as proof a session log or some such similar document, a list of personnel on a reel of tape from those sessions--the simple discounting of another forum poster's words from 2009--the one who "never fails to amuse you"--or a biographer you don't like is simply not enough.

"Me, shaky?"



Here is Keith getting in the mood of writing "Satisfaction" while sleeping next night... (Clearwater Hotel, Florida, May 7th). As we can see Brian was very much involved at least in this stage...

But always a pleasure to read Mock Jogger's well argued posts. Could you gentlemen please link that 2009 thread you both referred?

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-20 09:09 by Doxa.

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stonehearted
In another recent Beatles-related thread, I quoted an official first-hand source in a discussion about a particular recording session, and this source of information was discounted by almost everyone here in favor of a research biographer. The reason: People who were actually there tend to "misremember" things.

So, it's great that you have confirmation from someone who was there like ALO.... However, I can't seem to find an actual reliable data source that lists Brian as having been at that session, and various accounts of Brian not having been present for that particular session have survived for a reason.... What we need is proof.


Mick Jagger at RCA Studios on May 12, 1965.

No actually, in that instance what the tapes revealed were favoured.

Other than him forgetting that in addition to Paul someone else played guitar on Sgt Pepper, Emericks memory of the Sgt Pepper session seems ok.

Were George Martin, Emerick and Macca to say that only Macca played guitar on it then we'd have a problem, but they haven't. One person getting one little bit wrong is not a problem.

ALO and Bill placing Brian at the session which produced Satisfaction and others suggests he was there, but sure, further proof that he was there and played acoustic guitar on Satisfaction would be most welcome. The photo you posted might be from September 1965.

Ps: Chill out about Emerick seemingly mis-remembering one part. Maybe his co-author got it wrong.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-20 09:45 by His Majesty.

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Doxa
Could you gentlemen please link that 2009 thread you both referred?

It's linked in Mock's post, but here it is again: [www.iorr.org]

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stonehearted

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Doxa
Could you gentlemen please link that 2009 thread you both referred?

It's linked in Mock's post, but here it is again: [www.iorr.org]

Oh sorry, I missed it somehow, but thanks!

- Doxa