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strat72

Your suggestion that Let it Bleed is a weird, incomplete and transitional album is laughable. It is in no way weird. (GHS is weird, and all the better for it) It is in no way incomplete. It is as complete as any great album can be. It also fits perfectly between the album it follows (Bb) and the album it procedes (SF) and thus, is in no way transitional!

You lump Beggars in with The Rolling Stone, Aftermath, Satanic, BTB and call them the big six. Beggars does not fit in with those albums. It fits in with the albums that follow it. Beggars marks the point where they went from being a great singles band, into a great albums band. Beggars is when the Stones truly found their sound and became 'The greatest rock n roll band in the world.' Thus it is BB that is the transitional album

No, Beggars Banquet totally belongs with the albums I stated, it features the same core band from their debut album and a key additional musician from Their Satanic Majesties Request. It has features from their debut through Their Satanic Majesties Request.

Go listen to Satanic Sessions box sets and hear that much of the
beggars Banquet sound is essentially there already. It totally belongs to the Jones era.

Essentially it's an updated, more mature and focused Aftermath with some blended in touches from their psychedelic experimentation.

It's as a natural conclusion for the Jones era band, there's still room and a place for him in most of the Beggars Banquet era music.

...

Let It Bleed uses Beggars Banquet as a rough blueprint, but it sounds and feels totally different. It finds them wanting for a third distinctive voice. This is partly due to it essentially having no real input from Jones and only basic contributions from Taylor. His playing is yet to make it's full impact on the band. Let It Bleed and the related single hints at the change from disfunctional Jones stones, to technically superior and rather different Taylor stones.

Let It Bleed is indeed a transitional album from one era to another. There's no real place for Jones in this music and Taylor isn't yet being utilised fully.

TGR&RBITW was born during the 1969 US tour and first heard on record on Ger Yer Ya-Ya's Out.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-31 03:30 by His Majesty.

Great post, His Majesty. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Let It Bleed is most definitely a transitional project; and all the more fascinating for it. When discovering the Stones - and before I was yet to listen - it was the record I was more curios about: a pinch of Brian, a smidgen of Taylor, and a lotta, lotta, Keith!

Yes, as far as "Keith" albums go, LIB is really the godfather of Exile.

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Big Al
Great post, His Majesty. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Let It Bleed is most definitely a transitional project; and all the more fascinating for it. When discovering the Stones - and before I was yet to listen - it was the record I was more curios about: a pinch of Brian, a smidgen of Taylor, and a lotta, lotta, Keith!

I'll ingulge myself further then.

Let It Bleed shows on record the transition of a band with an original broken hearted member who has nothing left to say to a fresh and hungry new member who has much to say, but isn't yet being given the proper chance.

The band heard on Beggars Banquet is not the band that appears on Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out.

November 1968 - November 1969 is the year in which they needed to change, began that process, experimented and refined in rehearsal and during the US tour, then presenting their new sound on record.

R&R Circus - Blatantly obvious to all that the original stones is done as is.

Let It Bleed/Honky Tonk Woman/Hyde Park - The process and transition from the old to the new.

Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out - The US tour of fresh self discovery and the presentation of their new sound. Fit and ready to take on the 70's.

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kleermaker
Ya Ya's belongs to the 'big five' and for me GHS winds up the 'big' six.

Total agreement here. I love GHS, but Ya Ya's could almost be considered its own record since any number of the arrangements are so different and stunning. Rambler and Sympathy, in particular, don't resemble their studio counterparts.

I like it. The Big 5!

T@3

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His Majesty

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strat72

Your suggestion that Let it Bleed is a weird, incomplete and transitional album is laughable. It is in no way weird. (GHS is weird, and all the better for it) It is in no way incomplete. It is as complete as any great album can be. It also fits perfectly between the album it follows (Bb) and the album it procedes (SF) and thus, is in no way transitional!

You lump Beggars in with The Rolling Stone, Aftermath, Satanic, BTB and call them the big six. Beggars does not fit in with those albums. It fits in with the albums that follow it. Beggars marks the point where they went from being a great singles band, into a great albums band. Beggars is when the Stones truly found their sound and became 'The greatest rock n roll band in the world.' Thus it is BB that is the transitional album

No, Beggars Banquet totally belongs with the albums I stated, it features the same core band from their debut album and a key additional musician from Their Satanic Majesties Request. It has features from their debut through Their Satanic Majesties Request.

Go listen to Satanic Sessions box sets and hear that much of the
beggars Banquet sound is essentially there already. It totally belongs to the Jones era.

Essentially it's an updated, more mature and focused Aftermath with some blended in touches from their psychedelic experimentation.

It's as a natural conclusion for the Jones era band, there's still room and a place for him in most of the Beggars Banquet era music.

...

Let It Bleed uses Beggars Banquet as a rough blueprint, but it sounds and feels totally different. It finds them wanting for a third distinctive voice. This is partly due to it essentially having no real input from Jones and only basic contributions from Taylor. His playing is yet to make it's full impact on the band. Let It Bleed and the related single hints at the change from disfunctional Jones stones, to technically superior and rather different Taylor stones.

Let It Bleed is indeed a transitional album from one era to another. There's no real place for Jones in this music and Taylor isn't yet being utilised fully.

TGR&RBITW was born during the 1969 US tour and first heard on record on Ger Yer Ya-Ya's Out.

Nonsense! Beggars belongs with the rest of the big four because it is a great album, as are LIB, SF and EOMS, and also because they compliment each other so well.

Beggars marked a change in direction for the Stones, a change that was continued with Let it Bleed. That change had nothing to do with Brian Jones or Mick Taylor. The inspiration was coming totally from Mick & Keith!

Now, I know that you have a hard-on for Brian Jones, but the truth is this. He had very little to do with BB! He was not functioning by then, and was totally sidelined, and often ignored by the rest of the band. His presense made no difference to the sound of that album. In fact, other than his beautiful slide on No Expectations, it would have had no effect on BB if he was not at the sessions at all, no more than if Mick T had not been at the LIB session. As I said, the inspiration came from Mick & Keef (With help from Jimmy Miller) The change of personal within The Band had no effect on those two albums. They sit side by side perfectly, and what great albums they are!

Satanic Majesties, Between The Buttons! HaHa, Jog on...

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kleermaker

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His Majesty

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kleermaker
Ya Ya's belongs to the 'big five' and for me GHS winds up the 'big' six.

You don't really like Beggars Banquet or Let It Bleed though.

I love them both and they have fantastic songs on them. But I agree on the qualification of Let It Bleed as "a weird incomplete sounding transitional thing". I've said that myself before in other words. Nevertheless it has phenomenal songs on it: Shelter, Get What You Want, Rambler, to name a few.
Beggars' Sympathy I don't like that much, but again, it's a monster of a song. No Expectations stands out, but Salt Of The Earth, Jigsaw Puzzle, Street F. Man and Stray Cat Blues are top songs too.

I meant more about the arrangements, performances, recordings etc.

Yep, I agree with you, again. Ya-Ya's is the true start of the new era. Beggars is still Brian - I've never thought otherwise - and, sadly, Rock N' Roll Circus is the definite end. No Expectations aside, its as if Brian's solely there for decorative purposes! It's the mark of a guy whose totally disinterested and detached. His head and heart are elsewhere.

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Blueranger
My respect for the album is bigger now.
When I heard it years ago (I'm from 1980, so it must be about 1995 I heard it), I thought it was a very uninspired listening experience.
However, it is clear for me now, that they wanted to try different textures and sounds and get away from the Exile sound. On those grounds, they succeded.
It will never be a favourite, but it stands as a nice alternative when I want to explore their discography. It has very nice songs and is miles away from the big four, which granted, are their best work, but sometimes it can also be good to look at an artists lesser work to understand their masterpieces better.

Very well said. Sounds like I enjoy GHS a shade more than you do, but I think your words are pretty spot-on.

Also: Not a chance in the world that GHS--as fascinatingly washed-out and decadent as it is--belongs alongside the the "Big Four."

Some Girls does, though...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-31 04:56 by Rev. Robert W..

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strat72

Nonsense! Beggars belongs with the rest of the big four because it is a great album, as are LIB, SF and EOMS, and also because they compliment each other so well.

Beggars marked a change in direction for the Stones, a change that was continued with Let it Bleed. That change had nothing to do with Brian Jones or Mick Taylor. The inspiration was coming totally from Mick & Keith!

Now, I know that you have a hard-on for Brian Jones, but the truth is this. He had very little to do with BB! He was not functioning by then, and was totally sidelined, and often ignored by the rest of the band. His presense made no difference to the sound of that album. In fact, other than his beautiful slide on No Expectations, it would have had no effect on BB if he was not at the sessions at all, no more than if Mick T had not been at the LIB session. As I said, the inspiration came from Mick & Keef (With help from Jimmy Miller) The change of personal within The Band had no effect on those two albums. They sit side by side perfectly, and what great albums they are!

Satanic Majesties, Between The Buttons! HaHa, Jog on...

It's not just about Jones, Beggars Banquet is an album by the original band, albeit in a less than ideal way. At the very least Aftermath is also a great album. Certainly on par with Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed.

As for the change in direction coming totally from Jagger Richards, you ought to seek out a January 1968 interiew with Jones.

Also, Jones plays on atleast as many as, if not more tracks on Beggars Banquet than Bill does. Of course the main well spring is from Jagger Richards, but a third distinctive voice or character was a key element to their music and it's direction...

The expected third voice/chatacter is quieter on Beggars Banquet, but there enough on some important tracks. It's missing on Let It Bleed, but most definitely there in a very different way through a new member on Ya-Ya's, Sticky Fingers, Exile, GHS and IORR. This voice has it's own swan song in the form of Time Waits For No One.

...

Anyway, Beggars Banquet is very much part of the original bands musical evolution. It's a defining statement on everything that had gone before and where they were at, what they had learned, experienced and reflected upon. Here we are, mostly triumphant, partly destroyed.

The end of a journey is also a beginning, but some changes and the integration of a distinctive third voice/character had to take place first before that could really begin.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-31 05:44 by His Majesty.

Regarding Brian, the problem with Beggars is his comparatively minimalistic contributions, compared, to say, what he put forward before. The reality, is that, he’s featured almost throughout; though be it, not in the role as a major contributor, always. Anyway, it’s, in every sense, a Brian-release. He’s there throughout.

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stonehearted
Why not the Big 6, because it so happens that Black and Blue is the first Stones album chronologically speaking, that I have a problem with listening all the way through without the desire to skip over certain tracks.

Me too, and then the run from Some Girls to Undercover I can listen through without skipping, until Dirty Work. In all honesty it's been hit and miss since then...with Bridges being the strongest since Undercover.


Anyway, back on track, GHS is an amazing release, it just suffers from released after such a mammoth run of true masterpieces.

the shoot 'em dead, brainbell jangler!

The Jimmy Miller era is what it is and it's a fantastic run of 5 LPs. The Big 4 are in the Jimmy Miller era (in case someone doesn't know that for some reason). GHS, as much as I love it, does not have that status of The Big 4.

Call GHS, IORR and BAB The Hazy 3. And a great haze they are! Especially GHS.

SG, ER, TY and U are what I consider The Last 4.

As in the last 4 Stones albums that matter.

There's a definite trip going on with The Big 4 and The Last 4. They have their own sound yet are similar to each other (although really TY is the odd one out of the whole bunch) in their group. They represent the second guitar player for each era fantastically.

Let It Bleed and Sticky Fingers will always be their best album.

Yes, Ya-Ya's rounds out the Big 5 (if not heads it up). GHS is the beginning of a long slow creative demise.

Not sure about an earlier Big (something list), but if I made one NOW would be on it. That is a fine album.

After skimming this thread I have the following comments:

I was 17 when Beggar's Banquet was released and 30 when Tatoo You was realeased.

At the time of the release of Goat's Head Soup I was way more disappointed with that, than with the release of Emotional Rescue.

However, I would agree now with the original poster that if there was such a thing as this Big 4, then yes, Goat's Head Soup should make it the Big 5. Goat's Head Soup has steadily risen up in my book over the years.

But, I always considered Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers, and Exile on Main Street to be one run of super creativity, and Some Girls, Emotional Rescue, and Tatoo You to be the other.

I absolutely hated Black and Blue at the time of release, but have really gotten into it just recently.

Yes, GET YER YA-YA'S OUT! should be included as well, as great and important it was like any of the four, so it is BIG 5. YA-YA'S! introduced the new sound of the band to all over the world. It was a strong artistic statement, and also a kind of bridge between LET IT BLEED and STICKY FINGERS. The problem seems to be that the very concept of 'live album' starts to be a thing of the past nowadays.

But that said, very nice posts in this thread!

- Doxa

Yes,perhaps the Big six including IORR quite a worthy album in my opinion.GHS earned itself a tribute night here in Melbourne Australia at the Cherry bar around the same date as the album was released 40 years ago.A band of all stars played the entire record,with local frontman Nick Barker.

GHS earned itself a tribute night here in Melbourne Australia at the Cherry bar around the same date as the album was released 40 years ago.A band of all stars played the entire record,with local frontman Nick Barker

YEAH went to that ... great night at The Cherry ...
James is turning The cherry into a Stones shop for when Stones are in town in March...claims they are going ta have Chuck there on the Saturday doing a Q&A ..



ROCKMAN

When I first saw this topic, I thought this thread was about accounting firms...
...anyway, to me it's the big 4

Big 4, big 5--I'm sure there are still a handful of punters in the North of England who would swear by The Big Three....

Nicky Hopkins and the addition of Bobby Keyes and the horns added more of a "third voice" in the transitional period than either Brian or Mick Taylor. Notwithstanding his excellent contributions to Sticky and Exile, MT really only emerges as a "third voice" on record with GHS. Obviously he's significant as part of Ya Ya's, and came to be (too?) dominant live in '72 into '73

GHS is not among their best albums. There isn't a top-shelf riff on the whole thing. Keef sounds asleep most of the time. The fifth-best Stones studio album in the UK version of Aftermath.

Get Your Ya-Yas Out should probably be on the list methinks.
"Paint it black you devils, paint it black!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-31 12:06 by crholmstrom.

I find myself spinning the mid-seventies trilogy GHS-IORR-B&B a lot these days. Probably because I have played their earlier stuff so much. In my opinion GHS is very good though slightly below the big 4. Definitely a top 10, as is also The Rolling Stones and Aftermath (plus 3 more obviously).

I think GHS suffers from weakness in production. And history taught us that Jimmy was on the outs; so that makes sense. But the songs are just as strong as, uh say 'Exile" e.g. They just didn't get the treatment.
"Can you hear the music" could easily have been something between "Just wanna see his face" and "Let it Loose". It should have had chicks singing.
Or
"Hide Your Love" - In Exile setting this would have been stellar. Imagine what would have happened to "Casino Boogie" in GHS sessions; would have ended up awful. CB is all attitude.
Yes, there are a lot of ghost vocals on GHS, but it still doesn't sound adventurous, or even very lively. 'Dancing w/ MrD" is a very stale opener. There is no grit in those guitar sounds. Same with @#$%&".

yes I always thought it should be Big 5. But I assumed the thread referred to "Ya-Yas" being included.

PS I agree with HM about Let it Bleed". There are several classics on the album (see opener and closer), but it is strangely disjointed. It might not even be a negative thing. It just is. I think a lot of it has to do with Keith playing slide on the album. He does all the guitars. And no matter how good you do it - overdub is still an overdub. Nothing beats the tightness and the surprise of an organic ensemble playing.

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His Majesty

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strat72

Nonsense! Beggars belongs with the rest of the big four because it is a great album, as are LIB, SF and EOMS, and also because they compliment each other so well.

Beggars marked a change in direction for the Stones, a change that was continued with Let it Bleed. That change had nothing to do with Brian Jones or Mick Taylor. The inspiration was coming totally from Mick & Keith!

Now, I know that you have a hard-on for Brian Jones, but the truth is this. He had very little to do with BB! He was not functioning by then, and was totally sidelined, and often ignored by the rest of the band. His presense made no difference to the sound of that album. In fact, other than his beautiful slide on No Expectations, it would have had no effect on BB if he was not at the sessions at all, no more than if Mick T had not been at the LIB session. As I said, the inspiration came from Mick & Keef (With help from Jimmy Miller) The change of personal within The Band had no effect on those two albums. They sit side by side perfectly, and what great albums they are!

Satanic Majesties, Between The Buttons! HaHa, Jog on...

It's not just about Jones, Beggars Banquet is an album by the original band, albeit in a less than ideal way. At the very least Aftermath is also a great album. Certainly on par with Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed.

As for the change in direction coming totally from Jagger Richards, you ought to seek out a January 1968 interiew with Jones.

Also, Jones plays on atleast as many as, if not more tracks on Beggars Banquet than Bill does. Of course the main well spring is from Jagger Richards, but a third distinctive voice or character was a key element to their music and it's direction...

The expected third voice/chatacter is quieter on Beggars Banquet, but there enough on some important tracks. It's missing on Let It Bleed, but most definitely there in a very different way through a new member on Ya-Ya's, Sticky Fingers, Exile, GHS and IORR. This voice has it's own swan song in the form of Time Waits For No One.

...

Anyway, Beggars Banquet is very much part of the original bands musical evolution. It's a defining statement on everything that had gone before and where they were at, what they had learned, experienced and reflected upon. Here we are, mostly triumphant, partly destroyed.

The end of a journey is also a beginning, but some changes and the integration of a distinctive third voice/character had to take place first before that could really begin.

Totally agreed.

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His Majesty
No, it is far too uninspired in comparison to nearly every UK stones album that came before.

The Rolling Stones, Aftermath, Between The Buttons, Their Satanic Majesties Request, Beggars Banquet are the original Rolling stones big 5.

Let It Bleed is a weird incomplete sounding transitional thing.

Sticky Fingers and Exile is a different band, but great solid blues rock music and a natural conclusion for the inspired song writing of Jagger Richards.

Something changed after that.

No.2 and Out Of Our Heads are so-so, GHS, IORR, B&B belongs in with those.

Yeah, I was going to pick "Their Satanic Majesties Request" as part of the big 5 but I would have been hung at sunrise!

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moonlightaffair
Yes.

Another yes from me.

I guess I'm a traditionalist and believe the standard wisdom - that Between the Buttons and Satanic Majesties, while good, were the Stones following trends; that the with the JJF single and Beggars Banquet, the Stones rediscovered their bluesy roots and stuck by them for the next three, indisputably great, albums.

GHS is a very good album, but isn't in the same league as those that came before it. It's best tracks were the beautiful ballads; the rockers sound a bit stiff (making the versions heard on Brussels that much better).

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stonehearted
Big 4, big 5--I'm sure there are still a handful of punters in the North of England who would swear by The Big Three....

What about Big Six?