It's a great album but the production and mixing is horrible. It's beyond brickwalled.

They should produce, mix and master every album like Emotional Rescue. Bring in Mr. Kimsey!!!

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MadMax
It's a great album but the production and mixing is horrible. It's beyond brickwalled.

They should produce, mix and master every album like Emotional Rescue. Bring in Mr. Kimsey!!!

Kimsey sucked on Flashpoint - the worst Stones album, so I'm not so sure...

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seitan

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MadMax
It's a great album but the production and mixing is horrible. It's beyond brickwalled.

They should produce, mix and master every album like Emotional Rescue. Bring in Mr. Kimsey!!!

Kimsey sucked on Flashpoint - the worst Stones album, so I'm not so sure...

The best-sounding SMU ever is on Flashpoint. JJF is awesome as well.

All the overdubbing wasn't Kimsey's fault.

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FortuneTeller800

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CanYouHearTheMusic
Of all their post-WWIII albums, I like this one the most. It's still not an album of theirs I get out very often, but there are some definite highlights.

Question: Why is it a consensus that "Sweet Neo Con" is one of their worst songs/one of this album's worst songs? Are the people who claim this a) libertarians, b) genuine fans of the Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush policies or c) people who actually liked the actions of the U.S. and U.K. governments at that time? I personally thought it was one of the three best on the record and that Mick's lyrics were really biting and the music snarled! I was wholly disappointed that, in his effort to not get the boos from half of the divided crowd that CSNY got every night they played "Let's Impeach The President" on their concurrent tour, they NEVER played it live. Mick's genuine urge to be daring had long been replaced by the need for total audience acceptance, 100% of the time if possible. A shame.

It's obvious to me that most here agree with the political stance of the song. My problem with that song is the infantile, clumsy manner in which the point is made. A songwriter of Jagger's caliber should be way more clever and sublime .

The following is a remake of an earlier post of mine:

At a time when I myself had not yet obtained a vinyl version of the album, I read a post on IORR about "My Sweet NeoCon", written by I don't know whom. It made a point about whose point of view was taken in the verses of the song, in contrast to the short answers given. What is said in the verses then, was not a message from the Stones to the USA, so to speak. Less controversial, but still somewhat controversial, probably, the view in the verses was rather a view that the Stones (or Mick Jagger) attributed to the NeoCons. The Stones' own view would then be the short answers "How come you're so wrong My sweet NeoCon".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-14 22:24 by Witness.

Perfect reply Witness.

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan

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MadMax
It's a great album but the production and mixing is horrible. It's beyond brickwalled.

They should produce, mix and master every album like Emotional Rescue. Bring in Mr. Kimsey!!!

Kimsey sucked on Flashpoint - the worst Stones album, so I'm not so sure...

The best-sounding SMU ever is on Flashpoint. JJF is awesome as well.

All the overdubbing wasn't Kimsey's fault.

How do you know that all overdubbing wasnt Kimsey's fault ? How do you know ? And no - the best sounding Start Me Up is the studio version or maybe there's some great bootlegs some where..I dont know, - The best JJF is either the orginal studio version or Ya Ya's version..and Flashpoint is too sterile sounding album to even consider listening to...and too thin sounding album to be even considered a rock n roll.

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Witness

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FortuneTeller800

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CanYouHearTheMusic
Of all their post-WWIII albums, I like this one the most. It's still not an album of theirs I get out very often, but there are some definite highlights.

Question: Why is it a consensus that "Sweet Neo Con" is one of their worst songs/one of this album's worst songs? Are the people who claim this a) libertarians, b) genuine fans of the Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush policies or c) people who actually liked the actions of the U.S. and U.K. governments at that time? I personally thought it was one of the three best on the record and that Mick's lyrics were really biting and the music snarled! I was wholly disappointed that, in his effort to not get the boos from half of the divided crowd that CSNY got every night they played "Let's Impeach The President" on their concurrent tour, they NEVER played it live. Mick's genuine urge to be daring had long been replaced by the need for total audience acceptance, 100% of the time if possible. A shame.

It's obvious to me that most here agree with the political stance of the song. My problem with that song is the infantile, clumsy manner in which the point is made. A songwriter of Jagger's caliber should be way more clever and sublime .

The following is a remake of an earlier post of mine:

At a time when I myself had not yet obtained a vinyl version of the album, I read a post on IORR about "My Sweet NeoCon", written by I don't know whom. It made a point about whose point of view was taken in the verses of the song, in contrast to the short answers given. What is said in the verses then, was not a message from the Stones to the USA, so to speak. Less controversial, but still somewhat controversial, probably, the view in the verses was rather a view that the Stones (or Mick Jagger) attributed to the NeoCons. The Stones' own view would then be the short answers "How come you're so wrong My sweet NeoCon".

I don't understand what you are saying. (Not saying this in a facetious way - I really don't get it)

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FortuneTeller800

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Witness

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FortuneTeller800

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CanYouHearTheMusic
Of all their post-WWIII albums, I like this one the most. It's still not an album of theirs I get out very often, but there are some definite highlights.

Question: Why is it a consensus that "Sweet Neo Con" is one of their worst songs/one of this album's worst songs? Are the people who claim this a) libertarians, b) genuine fans of the Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush policies or c) people who actually liked the actions of the U.S. and U.K. governments at that time? I personally thought it was one of the three best on the record and that Mick's lyrics were really biting and the music snarled! I was wholly disappointed that, in his effort to not get the boos from half of the divided crowd that CSNY got every night they played "Let's Impeach The President" on their concurrent tour, they NEVER played it live. Mick's genuine urge to be daring had long been replaced by the need for total audience acceptance, 100% of the time if possible. A shame.

It's obvious to me that most here agree with the political stance of the song. My problem with that song is the infantile, clumsy manner in which the point is made. A songwriter of Jagger's caliber should be way more clever and sublime .

The following is a remake of an earlier post of mine:

At a time when I myself had not yet obtained a vinyl version of the album, I read a post on IORR about "My Sweet NeoCon", written by I don't know whom. It made a point about whose point of view was taken in the verses of the song, in contrast to the short answers given. What is said in the verses then, was not a message from the Stones to the USA, so to speak. Less controversial, but still somewhat controversial, probably, the view in the verses was rather a view that the Stones (or Mick Jagger) attributed to the NeoCons. The Stones' own view would then be the short answers "How come you're so wrong My sweet NeoCon".

I don't understand what you are saying. (Not saying this in a facetious way - I really don't get it)

Interpretation 1: All the lyrics are Mick Jagger's words addressed as such to the NeoCons as one wing of the inhabitants of the USA. For instance, he is seemingly naming them hypocrits.

Interpretation 2 (the alternative one): The verses of the lyrics are Mick Jagger's representation, fair or unfair, of the thinking of the NeoCons. For instance the line in verse 1: "I think that you're a hypocrite". It is not Jagger characterizing the NeoCons as hypocrites. Instead it would be, in the way the lyrics could be read, they, the NeoCons, who express that line directed against other Americans - Liberal Americans, Democratic Americans, moderately Republican Americans - to some extent almost all other Americans outside the NeoCons themselves. What Jagger then says as his own attitude, is the short responses to the verses of the song:"How come you're so wrong My sweet NeoCons". As such, a mild reproval.

You may possibly continue to dislike the lyrics. All the same, interpretation 2 gives the lyrics quite another character than interpretation 1.

Added: Some might, others will not, hold that the verses give a representation of attitudes of the NeoCons that are too exaggerated or contorted. However, I repeat, the perspective is changed by such a reading of the lyrics .



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-15 20:21 by Witness.

I Like it very much myself....

Favs:
Laugh I Nearly Died
Let Me Down Slow
This Place Is Empty
Biggest Mistake

Like lots:
Oh No Not You Again
Rough Justice
Dangerous Beauty

Like:
It Won't Take Long
BAck Of My Hand

So So:
Rain Fall Down

Generic avg:
Look What Cat Dragged In
Driving too Fast
Streets Of Love

Don't Care For:
Infamy
She Saw Me Coming
Sweet Neo Con

Under The Radar would of Made an excellent edition

I agree the "sonics" are too much reproduction with the top 10 tracks I listed with Under Radar also a very very good to excellent album to me anyway...

The MEZ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-15 20:33 by The Mez.

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Witness

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FortuneTeller800

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Witness

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FortuneTeller800

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CanYouHearTheMusic
Of all their post-WWIII albums, I like this one the most. It's still not an album of theirs I get out very often, but there are some definite highlights.

Question: Why is it a consensus that "Sweet Neo Con" is one of their worst songs/one of this album's worst songs? Are the people who claim this a) libertarians, b) genuine fans of the Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush policies or c) people who actually liked the actions of the U.S. and U.K. governments at that time? I personally thought it was one of the three best on the record and that Mick's lyrics were really biting and the music snarled! I was wholly disappointed that, in his effort to not get the boos from half of the divided crowd that CSNY got every night they played "Let's Impeach The President" on their concurrent tour, they NEVER played it live. Mick's genuine urge to be daring had long been replaced by the need for total audience acceptance, 100% of the time if possible. A shame.

It's obvious to me that most here agree with the political stance of the song. My problem with that song is the infantile, clumsy manner in which the point is made. A songwriter of Jagger's caliber should be way more clever and sublime .

The following is a remake of an earlier post of mine:

At a time when I myself had not yet obtained a vinyl version of the album, I read a post on IORR about "My Sweet NeoCon", written by I don't know whom. It made a point about whose point of view was taken in the verses of the song, in contrast to the short answers given. What is said in the verses then, was not a message from the Stones to the USA, so to speak. Less controversial, but still somewhat controversial, probably, the view in the verses was rather a view that the Stones (or Mick Jagger) attributed to the NeoCons. The Stones' own view would then be the short answers "How come you're so wrong My sweet NeoCon".

I don't understand what you are saying. (Not saying this in a facetious way - I really don't get it)

Interpretation 1: All the lyrics are Mick Jagger's words addressed as such to the NeoCons as one wing of the inhabitants of the USA. For instance, he is seemingly naming them hypocrits.

Interpretation 2 (the alternative one): The verses of the lyrics are Mick Jagger's representation, fair or unfair, of the thinking of the NeoCons. For instance the line in verse 1: "I think that you're a hypocrite". It is not Jagger characterizing the NeoCons as hypocrites. Instead it would be, in the way the lyrics could be read, they, the NeoCons, who express that line directed against other Americans - Liberal Americans, Democratic Americans, moderately Republican Americans - to some extent almost all other Americans outside the NeoCons themselves. What Jagger then says as his own attitude, is the short responses to the verses of the song:"How come you're so wrong My sweet NeoCons". As such, a mild reproval.

You may possibly continue to dislike the lyrics. All the same, interpretation 2 gives the lyrics quite another character than interpretation 1.

Added: Some might, others will not, hold that the verses give a representation of attitudes of the NeoCons that are too exaggerated or contorted. However, I repeat, the perspective is changed by such a reading of the lyrics .

I see what you're saying. yes, that would give the song a very different spin. And throughout the song he does shift freely (with poetic license) in his stance. Not the stance of his opinion, but the position from where the narrator is speaking. Still - I think it is fairly obvious what Jagger's position is, and when the shifts occur, what is being delivered.
E.g.Where the first few verses are Jagger speaking directly to them, the neocons.
In a mid verse ("it;s getting very scary..) he seems to be generalizing; speaking to 'us'.
A final verse looks to be the Neocon speaking, but as if he is mocking them. "we must have loads bases...we're going it alone..")

My dislike of the entire song is that it is pedestrian. there is no poetry. No elegance. The message of anyone sane is pretty clear; all of us say it day in, day out: Dylan, Lennon, Cave, Jagger. "Make love not war". What else is there really to say? So it comes down to the delivery, and how smart it can be told.

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GetYerAngie
Jagger's vocals on IWTL are just astonishing, I have heard that track hundreds of times and am still mesmerized by his delievery (also by the lyrics). RFD was a magnificent return to the soul-funk dancefloor

I second that.

...eight years ago...Sigh!

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FortuneTeller800

I see what you're saying. yes, that would give the song a very different spin. And throughout the song he does shift freely (with poetic license) in his stance. Not the stance of his opinion, but the position from where the narrator is speaking. Still - I think it is fairly obvious what Jagger's position is, and when the shifts occur, what is being delivered.
E.g.Where the first few verses are Jagger speaking directly to them, the neocons.
In a mid verse ("it;s getting very scary..) he seems to be generalizing; speaking to 'us'.
A final verse looks to be the Neocon speaking, but as if he is mocking them. "we must have loads bases...we're going it alone..")

My dislike of the entire song is that it is pedestrian. there is no poetry. No elegance. The message of anyone sane is pretty clear; all of us say it day in, day out: Dylan, Lennon, Cave, Jagger. "Make love not war". What else is there really to say? So it comes down to the delivery, and how smart it can be told.

The interpretation I presented, guided by the former poster I alluded to, was contrary to what you say in the sentence, which I have marked out in bold.

For instance, it is not he, Mick Jagger, speaking to them, the NeoCons, in the first verse. Arguably, not in any of the verses. Instead, that first verse is what Mick Jagger make them, again the NeoCons, say.

And when there is not elegance, poetry, aso., it is not always meant to be that way. And for what it is, the lyrics of this song, in this reading, stands out quite different from how it was without such a reading.

[The songwriters you mention, quite certainly have much more to say than "Make Love, Not War"]

[Late edit: addition of "what" in one sentence.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-17 12:43 by Witness.

This is turning into a cluster&ck.
Yes - I myself do not think Jagger assumes al these roles etc. in the words. I think he is pretty much blasting these neocons throughout. I did however think, we were tackling that point for the sake of a argument. Something to explore. Yu yourself called it 'Interpretation 2'.


Re the other answer about songwriters - I think you're taking my words to literal about them.

I see this as an admirable attempt at a modern Stones record. Anything that gets Mick and Keith sitting down and actually writing new material is a good thing but for me it comes down to editing what they've actually written. At the end of their short burst of creativity in 2004 they didn't have enough great material for a 16 song album. This, to my ears at least, would have been a much tighter and cohesive album.

1. Rough Justice
2. Let Me Down Slow
3. It Won't Take Long
4. Rain Fall Down
5. Streets of Love
6. Back of My Hand
7. She Saw Me Coming
8. Biggest Mistake
9. This Place Is Empty
10. Dangerous Beauty
11. Laugh, I Nearly Died
12. Infamy
13. Under The Radar

Maybe they just don't have a producer that is willing to tell the Glimmer Twins that songs such as "Sweet Neo Con" and "Look What The Cat Dragged In" are just filler. Still I think the stripped back approach was a step in the right direction. With the right producer and kick up the arse we could get more albums. Sales of three million is hardly disappointing. If Mick and Keith spent just one month a year working together on new material their latter years could be on a par with the final albums of great artists like Johnny Cash. Eight year gaps are a shame.

1 Rough Justice
2 It won't take long
3 Under the radar
4 Let me down slow
5 Dangerous Beauty
6 This place is empty
7 Streets of Love
8 Oh no not you again
9 Sweet NeoCon
10 Laugh I nearly died
11 We don't wanna go home

This is the Bang that I personally love, and have burned to CD and put into my ipod and car HDD. Never really understood the dislike for Streets. To me its a modern Play With Fire. And could NEVER understand the reasoning behind not having Under the Radar and I Just Wanna go Home on the record. THEY are killer tunes.


Driving too fast and Look what the Cat Dragged in are just dreadful dirges.And Back of my Hand doesn't sound finished.

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bitusa2012
1 Rough Justice
2 It won't take long
3 Under the radar
4 Let me down slow
5 Dangerous Beauty
6 This place is empty
7 Streets of Love
8 Oh no not you again
9 Sweet NeoCon
10 Laugh I nearly died
11 We don't wanna go home

This is the Bang that I personally love, and have burned to CD and put into my ipod and car HDD. Never really understood the dislike for Streets. To me its a modern Play With Fire. And could NEVER understand the reasoning behind not having Under the Radar and I Just Wanna go Home on the record. THEY are killer tunes.


Driving too fast and Look what the Cat Dragged in are just dreadful dirges.And Back of my Hand doesn't sound finished.

Hmm....you seemingly left out "Biggest Mistake" and "Back of My Hand", about the only tunes from the record I somehow am fond of...

- Doxa

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Doxa

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bitusa2012
1 Rough Justice
2 It won't take long
3 Under the radar
4 Let me down slow
5 Dangerous Beauty
6 This place is empty
7 Streets of Love
8 Oh no not you again
9 Sweet NeoCon
10 Laugh I nearly died
11 We don't wanna go home

This is the Bang that I personally love, and have burned to CD and put into my ipod and car HDD. Never really understood the dislike for Streets. To me its a modern Play With Fire. And could NEVER understand the reasoning behind not having Under the Radar and I Just Wanna go Home on the record. THEY are killer tunes.


Driving too fast and Look what the Cat Dragged in are just dreadful dirges.And Back of my Hand doesn't sound finished.

Hmm....you seemingly left out "Biggest Mistake" and "Back of My Hand", about the only tunes from the record I somehow am fond of...

- Doxa

Yeah I know some others like Back of my Hand. To me, as I say, it sounds unfinished. Biggest Mistake - for some reason Jagger's diction grates on my nerves. I cant listen to it even though I quite like the melody.

I see 'Bigger Bang' split up into 2 sides, old school.
Side 1
Rough Justice
Rain Fell Down
Under The Radar
She Saw Me Coming

Side 2
Back Of My Hand
Let Me Down Slow
Look What The Car Dragged In
Laugh I Nearly Died


No, I do not like "Neocon but more than anything on ABB I don't dig either of Keith's songs.

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bitusa2012

Yeah I know some others like Back of my Hand. To me, as I say, it sounds unfinished. Biggest Mistake - for some reason Jagger's diction grates on my nerves. I cant listen to it even though I quite like the melody.

I think every cut in the album sounds "unfinished". Probably that sort of 'raw' impression was intentional, but I am rather sure that partly that was due to lazyness and disinterest.

I get what you say of Jagger's vocals in "Biggest Mistake", and I have also problems with that, but let's say I like the melody and the way Jagger Dylan-like tells a 'story' enough to forgive that one.

Anyway, my impression of these efforts to edit the album to smaller format are doomed to be useless. The over-all quality in the album is rather mediocre, not real highlights, and even the 'worst ones' are not so bad compared to others (I take "Sweet Neo Con" and "Infamy" barely as jokes, which actually give some variance to the album). So the only benefit of editing some songs out is that the lesser amount of mediocricy is better than bigger one...

I over-all think that the artistic idea in A BIGGER BANG was simply 'quantity over quality'; "since we can't offer any actually strong cuts around which to construct a cohesive album of suitable cuts, let's just give them all we have..."

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-18 11:24 by Doxa.

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seitan

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DandelionPowderman

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seitan

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MadMax
It's a great album but the production and mixing is horrible. It's beyond brickwalled.

They should produce, mix and master every album like Emotional Rescue. Bring in Mr. Kimsey!!!

Kimsey sucked on Flashpoint - the worst Stones album, so I'm not so sure...

The best-sounding SMU ever is on Flashpoint. JJF is awesome as well.

All the overdubbing wasn't Kimsey's fault.

How do you know that all overdubbing wasnt Kimsey's fault ? How do you know ? And no - the best sounding Start Me Up is the studio version or maybe there's some great bootlegs some where..I dont know, - The best JJF is either the orginal studio version or Ya Ya's version..and Flashpoint is too sterile sounding album to even consider listening to...and too thin sounding album to be even considered a rock n roll.

Neither SMU or JJF sound sterile on Flashpoint. I was talking about live versions of SMU. I didn't say JJF was the best version, only that it sounds awesome, and it does.

I assume Mick and Keith decided to do all the fills - like they've done so many times before - something that's ridiculously apparent on songs like Miss You on Flashpoint.

Interviews with Kimsey tell us that Mick and Keith were in charge of most of the producer-work, and that Kimsey was the wizard editer and engineer.

It's amazing that you think SMU sounds sterile on Flashpoint - it' so powerful, with a guitar sound to die for, imo.

Biggest Mistake has an Aftermath-feel to it, imo. Something about the chorus, and Keith's guitar playing as well.

I didn't like it at first, but this is one of the ABB-songs that really has grown on me - probably my favourite from that album today.

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DandelionPowderman
Biggest Mistake has an Aftermath-feel to it, imo. Something about the chorus, and Keith's guitar playing as well.

I didn't like it at first, but this is one of the ABB-songs that really has grown on me - probably my favourite from that album today.

The song 'flows' naturally, with not much effort, unlike most of the stuff in album (which is damn handcraft-like and through-the-motions). And yeah, there is actually some melodical idea there, and Mick and Keith's duet choruses brings nicely positive nostalgic vibes. Probably there is something AFTERMATH-like naivity there, not being afraid of sounding corny or something.

- Doxa

Bang ... have ta be the most discussed album ever on IORR ...esp the song line-up



ROCKMAN

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Rockman
Bang ... have ta be the most discussed album ever on IORR ...esp the song line-up

Probably something to do with that it is not just their latest but about the only new Rolling Stones studio album the people here have a shared experience.... now to think of that, when BRIDGES TO BABYLON was released, was there even net yet? (Okay, there was (barely), but shit.. it was a long time ago!).

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-18 12:15 by Doxa.

So what about giving us a new one to talk about...

- Doxa

YEAH !!! ...love a new album ..



ROCKMAN

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Doxa

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Rockman
Bang ... have ta be the most discussed album ever on IORR ...esp the song line-up

Probably something to do with that it is not just their latest but about the only new Rolling Stones studio album the people here have a shared experience.... now to think of that, when BRIDGES TO BABYLON was released, was there even net yet? (Okay, there was (barely), but shit.. it was a long time ago!).

- Doxa

Yep, and we were here discussing B2B

when BRIDGES TO BABYLON was released, was there even net yet?

Yes there was... and the chat room was called Very English and Rolling Stones or something like that.. after it faded away I think Toru (or somebody) started antoher similar room.

I first encountered Rolling Hansie (and some others) back then and we even scheduled and I attended a big Stones concert preparty In Columbus with 15-20 people from that room. I wonder how many/if any of those people post here? I know and am very happy that Hans does, he is one of IORR's greats!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-18 13:17 by Max'sKansasCity.

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Max'sKansasCity
when BRIDGES TO BABYLON was released, was there even net yet?

Yes there was... and the chat room was called Very English and Rolling Stones or something like that.. after it faded away I think Toru (or somebody) started antoher similar room.

I first encountered Rolling Hansie (and some others) back then and we even scheduled and I attended a big Stones concert preparty In Columbus with 15-20 people from that room. I wonder how many/if any of those people post here? I know and am very happy that Hans does, he is one of IORR's greats!

That's cool, Max! But IORR also existed in 1997, pre-B2B. That's when I joined this forum.