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Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:29



ROLLING WITH THE STONES --- Bill Wyman

ROCKMAN

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: elunsi ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:33

Quote
howled
I think some are reading too much into it.

The song started off with Keith's riff and they were doing novelty joke like things with it in the studio according to Keith and they probably would have had no idea when they were first playing around with it that it would end up as a potential single.

For how the Stones play around with arrangements, see the Goddard Sympathy video where it goes from an Acoustic song to a Samba.

Anyway, they played around with what would become Paint It Black and I think Jack Nitzsche got the rhythm going in a certain way and the Sitar playing the riff spun it in a certain way and then Mick probably finished off the lyrics to suit it (maybe inspired by some things he's read) and that was Paint It Black.

It could have ended up as a Mothers Little Helper thing with a middle eastern riff and different lyrics to suit.

The lyrics are about someones funeral that the person has known and the after effects, and Eleanor Rigby was sort of similar and recorded a bit earlier and later then when Paint It Black hit the charts.

This was in the period where the Beatles had stopped singing about Love and just about any subject could theoretically be used for a pop song.

Satisfaction was Keith suggesting Satisfaction as the title and Mick just focused on how he couldn't get it in the lyrics, which just worked.

According to Keith it was Mick who wrote it. So maybe it did not start with Keith´s riff, maybe Mick already had the basic melody and the lyrics when he brought it to the studio?

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:34

Quote
Doxa


Yeah, thanks The Beatles for 'inspiration'. But as far as "Paint It Black" goes, I think they should be proud for having inspired (to an extent) achievements like that. What the Stones did with 'their' ideas, was totally original (very much based on their own unique nature as a band), as we can hear from the result.

- Doxa

cool smiley

...

The Brian Jones Resource

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:37

I do not understand how any man can get it to that PIB is a Rock song? What is Midnight Rambler or Sympathy for the Devil in that case? ...Nope, PIB is a genuine pop song made for the Top Lists at the time...

I always asked for the B-side if someone had the single...Long Long While is a brilliant blues-ballad....




..she wouldn't say
I said something wrong
Now I long..

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:49

Quote
Come On
I do not understand how any man can get it to that PIB is a Rock song? ]

If a song rocks like hell, it is a rock song.cool smiley I don't see it any less 'rocker' than, say, "Satisfaction", "Jumpin Jack Flash" or "Brown Sugar" is.

What actually is 'pop' in it? The Eastern melody line? Sitar? Charlie's drums which hit your face? The aggressive delivery of Jagger and its dark lyrics? (But, of course, rock is a form of pop music, so this is semantics...)

In my books it is one of the greatest rock songs ever written. A unique sounding rocker.

- Doxa

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:52




Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:55

A rocker in my books is any song that gets the blood racing and makes you want to propel your body in any particular direction - up and down, sideways, backwards and forward etc!

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:57

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Come On
I do not understand how any man can get it to that PIB is a Rock song? ]

If a song rocks like hell, it is a rock song.cool smiley I don't see it any less 'rocker' than, say, "Satisfaction", "Jumpin Jack Flash" or "Brown Sugar" is.

What actually is 'pop' in it? The Eastern melody line? Sitar? Charlie's drums which hit your face? The aggressive delivery of Jagger and its dark lyrics? (But, of course, rock is a form of pop music, so this is semantics...)

In my books it is one of the greatest rock songs ever written. A unique sounding rocker.

- Doxa

I was 12 years old when this aggressive delivery of Top List-song missed to hit my face. 1966 I were hit by 'Stupid Girl' and 'Zappa's and Creams stuff...wasn't Hendrix there also yelling about this aggressive Joe....smiling smiley


..she wouldn't say
I said something wrong
Now I long..

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 15, 2013 11:58

gets the blood racing and makes you want to propel your body in any particular direction - up and down, sideways, backwards and forward etc!

.........sure your not talking about pissing on an electric-fence??...??...???

ROCKMAN

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 15, 2013 12:02

Quote
Silver Dagger
A rocker in my books is any song that gets the blood racing and makes you want to propel your body in any particular direction - up and down, sideways, backwards and forward etc!

A good definition! The material come from anywhere. You take a Dylanisque folk song, give it a samba rhythmn (eye popping smiley), and add a screaming blues eletric guitar solo, and what you get? A rock and roll masterpiece...

(By the way, like you mentioned earlier, there is a lot of similarity between "Paint It Black" and "Sympathy For The Devil".)

- Doxa

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: October 15, 2013 12:07

Quote
Doxa


What actually is 'pop' in it? The Eastern melody line? Sitar? Charlie's drums which hit your face? The aggressive delivery of Jagger and its dark lyrics? (But, of course, rock is a form of pop music, so this is semantics...)

- Doxa


It sits in that wonderful experimental pop - rock realm where things are very musical and their power is not reliant on constant heavy distorted rock riffs. cool smiley

...

The Brian Jones Resource

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: howled ()
Date: October 15, 2013 12:11

I think Paint It Black was released before Eleanor Rigby but Eleanor Rigby was partly recorded before Paint It Black.

They are different songs that just happen to have some similarities in the subject matter of the lyrics.

McCartney had different words to Eleanor Rigby at first according to Donavan.

Arrangements impact the listener, but how the arrangements happened is interesting.

As far as I know, Keith comes up with a middle eastern riff and hits the studio with no real plans for a Sitar or the final rhythm and Mick's still doing the lyrics as the songs being thrashed out.

At first they didn't quite know what to do with it and joked around with it and probably tried it as a straight beat number as Mick put it.

The melody follows the riff's notes, so the lyrics have to be phrased into the riffs timing.

(1) I (2) see (3) a (4) red (5) door (6) and (7) I (8) want (9) it (10) paint (11) ed (12) black

Then there is the add on upbeat section (maybe then I'll etc etc).

At that time Brian was into the Sitar and the recent Beatles things were around and could theoretically influence others and the Beatles themselves were influenced by others.








Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-15 12:33 by howled.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: October 15, 2013 12:39

Quote
Rockman
gets the blood racing and makes you want to propel your body in any particular direction - up and down, sideways, backwards and forward etc!

.........sure your not talking about pissing on an electric-fence??...??...???




Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 15, 2013 12:39

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Silver Dagger
A rocker in my books is any song that gets the blood racing and makes you want to propel your body in any particular direction - up and down, sideways, backwards and forward etc!

A good definition! The material come from anywhere. You take a Dylanisque folk song, give it a samba rhythmn (eye popping smiley), and add a screaming blues eletric guitar solo, and what you get? A rock and roll masterpiece...

(By the way, like you mentioned earlier, there is a lot of similarity between "Paint It Black" and "Sympathy For The Devil".)

- Doxa

I would think, after having read the posts from both of you earlier in this thread, the said similarity applies especially if it is the version of "Sympathy for the Devil" from the bootleg LIVER THAN YOU'LL EVER BE from 1969. On my album of ten songs,it was the third track, by the way preceded by "Gimme Shelter".

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Date: October 15, 2013 12:49

Quote
Come On
Quote
Doxa
Quote
Come On
I do not understand how any man can get it to that PIB is a Rock song? ]

If a song rocks like hell, it is a rock song.cool smiley I don't see it any less 'rocker' than, say, "Satisfaction", "Jumpin Jack Flash" or "Brown Sugar" is.

What actually is 'pop' in it? The Eastern melody line? Sitar? Charlie's drums which hit your face? The aggressive delivery of Jagger and its dark lyrics? (But, of course, rock is a form of pop music, so this is semantics...)

In my books it is one of the greatest rock songs ever written. A unique sounding rocker.

- Doxa

I was 12 years old when this aggressive delivery of Top List-song missed to hit my face. 1966 I were hit by 'Stupid Girl' and 'Zappa's and Creams stuff...wasn't Hendrix there also yelling about this aggressive Joe....smiling smiley

The only aggressive Joe in 1966 was this one smiling smiley Pretty good as well thumbs up




Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 15, 2013 13:19

Quote
Come On
Quote
Doxa
Quote
Come On
I do not understand how any man can get it to that PIB is a Rock song? ]

If a song rocks like hell, it is a rock song.cool smiley I don't see it any less 'rocker' than, say, "Satisfaction", "Jumpin Jack Flash" or "Brown Sugar" is.

What actually is 'pop' in it? The Eastern melody line? Sitar? Charlie's drums which hit your face? The aggressive delivery of Jagger and its dark lyrics? (But, of course, rock is a form of pop music, so this is semantics...)

In my books it is one of the greatest rock songs ever written. A unique sounding rocker.

- Doxa

I was 12 years old when this aggressive delivery of Top List-song missed to hit my face. 1966 I were hit by 'Stupid Girl' and 'Zappa's and Creams stuff...wasn't Hendrix there also yelling about this aggressive Joe....smiling smiley

Can't much argue with this first hand perception!smileys with beer

But let me tell you my first hand perception... Before "Start Me Up" and TATTOO YOU I didn't know anything of the Rolling Stones (nor much about anything of pre-punk rock history). I did know that their name though, and belonging to the 60's era with the Beatles. To my 10/12 years old eyes, a typical follower of trends then, the whole 60's were a kind of uncool hippie era, even the 50's were cooler, since there were those rock-a-billy things quite popular then in Finland, such as The Stray Cats. So Elvis was 'cool' but The Beatles or The Rolling Stones not (damn, there was Beatles songs, such as "All My Loving" I recall singing, in my school music books, which automatically made them irrelevant to any rebellion that, naturally, was still associated with rock music.). I did know that The Stones still existed, but they were irrelevant, old farts that the old long-hair hippies liked.

But then, 1980 to be precise, me with my 11 years old eyes, saw a television advertisement of a Rolling Stones greatest hits album. There was nothing very striking about it, but one particular melody line just stuck to head (it could be that I have heard that from radio before, like I had heard several Stones songs without knowing their source). I find that damn exciting and somehow threatening sounding, so mean and 'cold'. Even my punk-trained ears liked it... But not enough to get that album or to want to know more. But it was that un-known melody line the only thing I consciously associated to the Rolling Stones before "Start Me Up" musically.

But as I got hooked on The Stones via TATTOO YOU and started to dig their past works, the first thing I wanted to find was that song with that special melody line. Luckily I got randomly an album called STONE AGE to my hands soon, and oh-la-la, there that was. "Paint It Black". No need to say I loved it very much, even though the sitar (eye popping smiley) in a rock song sounded a bit odd firstly...

Those were the days, the days of a young innocent Doxa...grinning smiley

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-15 13:23 by Doxa.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: stonehearted ()
Date: October 15, 2013 13:23

Quote
Big Al
Keith has stated the comma was a Decca's doing.

Recently Andrew Oldham has claimed it was his idea, as a sly publicity move to get the song title noticed.

He had the band add "(I Can't Get No)" to the title of the song that was originally called simply "Satisfaction," to more explicitly broadcast its darker theme. He also added a seemingly random comma to the song title on the single for "Paint It Black"—making it "Paint It, Black." That was a sly publicity move, too.

"I think this is a throwback to my admiration for Saul Bass," said Oldham. "I just put a comma in there because I knew I would get calls from the record company saying, 'Are you sure about this? There's a comma there.' And that would make them notice us. If they're releasing 10 or 12 or 20 records a week, it would make them notice us."


From: [www.adweek.com]

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: stonehearted ()
Date: October 15, 2013 13:32

The bass master track:





The sitar and guitar master track:




Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 15, 2013 13:49

My first recollection of the stones was from when I was about 6.

I saw them on Top of the Pops doing GOOMC . I thought that Mick Jagger bloke was a hilariously funny clown !

Funny how the memory stuck with me though . I don't have any similar memories at that age of seeing anything else music related on the telly.

After I first got properly into the Stones another 6 years or so later with SF & Exile, it was picking up a second hand copy of High Tide that first re-introduced me to the earlier Brian era band.

The timing for a lot of folks must have been similar but it's almost as though the pre-68 stuff was a different band.
Still great, but not my Rolling Stones somehow. [ Through The Past Darkly I related to straight away as a back catalogue adventure]

The other thing for me is that I subsequently related better with the Stones of the first three R&B derived albums than to the "Pop Star" band of the mid sixties.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: October 15, 2013 13:53

The pre Taylor stones was a different band. smiling smiley

...

The Brian Jones Resource



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-15 13:57 by His Majesty.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: October 15, 2013 14:02

Quote
stonehearted
Quote
Big Al
Keith has stated the comma was a Decca's doing.

Recently Andrew Oldham has claimed it was his idea, as a sly publicity move to get the song title noticed.

He had the band add "(I Can't Get No)" to the title of the song that was originally called simply "Satisfaction," to more explicitly broadcast its darker theme. He also added a seemingly random comma to the song title on the single for "Paint It Black"—making it "Paint It, Black." That was a sly publicity move, too.

"I think this is a throwback to my admiration for Saul Bass," said Oldham. "I just put a comma in there because I knew I would get calls from the record company saying, 'Are you sure about this? There's a comma there.' And that would make them notice us. If they're releasing 10 or 12 or 20 records a week, it would make them notice us."


From: [www.adweek.com]

I think the use of commmas and brackets or parentheses in Stones songs merits its own thread. Let's not forget the mighty comma in Have You Seen Your Mother Baby, Standing In The Shadows.

Once Loogie went, that was it for smart arse punctuation!

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: pike bishop ()
Date: October 15, 2013 14:05

Fairplay Doxa,you said it all.I have it as a email alert on the phone,so I get to hear it all day,every day.Brilliant always was,always will be.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 15, 2013 14:22

Quote
His Majesty
The pre Taylor stones was a different band. smiling smiley

I tend to think more in terms of "post Brian" .

For me the 68/69 Stones [essentially without Brian] is the second band before MT joined to augment it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-15 14:27 by Spud.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Date: October 15, 2013 14:26

<it's almost as though the pre-68 stuff was a different band.>

What happened in 1968?




Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: October 15, 2013 14:34

Quote
Silver Dagger

I think the use of commmas and brackets or parentheses in Stones songs merits its own thread. Let's not forget the mighty comma in Have You Seen Your Mother Baby, Standing In The Shadows.

Once Loogie went, that was it for smart arse punctuation!

OK, so whose going to start the thread? You or me? winking smiley

IMO, Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby? doesn't read correctly without the comma. It'd be poor grammar without it.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Date: October 15, 2013 15:02

Quote
Big Al
Quote
Silver Dagger

I think the use of commmas and brackets or parentheses in Stones songs merits its own thread. Let's not forget the mighty comma in Have You Seen Your Mother Baby, Standing In The Shadows.

Once Loogie went, that was it for smart arse punctuation!

OK, so whose going to start the thread? You or me? winking smiley

IMO, Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby? doesn't read correctly without the comma. It'd be poor grammar without it.

The correct use of commas would be a comma in front of, and after, baby - which I believe is the case here?

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 15, 2013 15:19

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

Yes, I told you I have !

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

Yes. Have you ?

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

No, just my dad.

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

You should see where your's hangs out !

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

Yeah, odd. She usually sits.

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

She must have forgotten her factor 8.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-15 15:39 by Spud.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 15, 2013 15:44

And, whilst we're at it.

It should be "I can't get any satisfaction" .


I would have thought a Grammar Schoool boy like Mick should know better.

What kind of example was that to the young listeners ?

Disgraceful !angry smiley

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: October 15, 2013 15:50

Quote
DandelionPowderman

The correct use of commas would be a comma in front of, and after, baby - which I believe is the case here?

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"[/quote]

Yes, that's the case. I didn't include 'Standing In The Shadow', hence my exclusion of the comma after 'Baby'.

Re: Track Talk: Paint It Black
Date: October 15, 2013 15:51

Quote
Big Al
Quote
DandelionPowderman

The correct use of commas would be a comma in front of, and after, baby - which I believe is the case here?

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?"

Yes, that's the case. I didn't include 'Standing In The Shadow', hence my exclusion of the comma after 'Baby'.[/quote]

Then you'll pass grinning smiley

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