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Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Kingbeebuzz ()
Date: February 14, 2021 15:48

Well this is all going rather well, isn’t it ?

I’ve learnt some new information about Lennon’s family, if not about Brian.

Thank you all..........new facts (yes facts) always welcome.

British newspaper archives can be accessed online, as can most births, Deaths and marriages in the UK.

I wonder if Lennon ever visited the tram museum place that Brian volunteered at ? Guess we will never know.....but that picture posted here some years ago of Brian digging away was a great find......when life was all before him.

Just listening to Little Red Rooster......sublime !!!

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 14, 2021 16:48

Quote
Kingbeebuzz
Well this is all going rather well, isn’t it ?

I’ve learnt some new information about Lennon’s family, if not about Brian.

Thank you all..........new facts (yes facts) always welcome.

British newspaper archives can be accessed online, as can most births, Deaths and marriages in the UK.

I wonder if Lennon ever visited the tram museum place that Brian volunteered at ? Guess we will never know.....but that picture posted here some years ago of Brian digging away was a great find......when life was all before him.

Just listening to Little Red Rooster......sublime !!!

Great song. Was and always will be. I remember that photo too. Somewhere I thought I saw Lennon on it as well (kidding). Anyway, at least I made a little progress in the past couple of days and will start to make some (corona proof) phone calls to the U.K. as of tomorrow.
Anyway, thanks to Elmo Lewis and other "party poopers" (I liked that one, H) for adding some humor to this thread.
smileys with beer

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: February 14, 2021 17:04

The whole thread is humorous.

We've learned that John Lennon had some cousins and met Paul at a church picnic.

Earth shattering news, as promised. confused smiley

I'm outta here. Never saw a party to poop. sad smiley

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Elmo ()
Date: February 14, 2021 17:30

"Hopefully they have a better vaccination strategy than the EU. Can you believe that the Brits and the EU are fighting a vaccin war over the heads of ordinary people? Pretty disgusting ...
Stay well!" (sic)

I don't know what this has to do with the matter in hand. For the record, there is no 'war' between UK and EU over vaccines. The EU got hacked off because they delayed in signing contracts for the vaccines and were behind UK in getting on board. UK has now vaccinated 15 million people, me included, without fuss and hype as you would expect from a civilised country. And, once done, any surplus will be given to other countries at no cost.Just saying.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: February 14, 2021 17:58

This thread perfectly illustrates that we've run out of topics to discuss

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: February 14, 2021 23:07



.......let us know when ya find something ....



ROCKMAN

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: February 14, 2021 23:19

Quote
Rockman


.......let us know when ya find something ....

Excellent! One picture is worth 1,000 postings!

What I wrote to georgie48 was nothing more than common sense. Like it or not, if a real link is found between Lennon & Jones, then that will be very significant.

I see it as a win-win to encourage this research, and to encourage it to be done PROPERLY.

It's a win if it is proved to a load of old bollocks. That would put a stop to rubbish being disseminated. (See UK High Court Ruling in Regina vs Bransom & Virgin which ruled that NOT to be a rude term).

It's a win if it's proved to have substance.

--
Captain Corella
50+ Years a Fan

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: MisterDDDD ()
Date: February 14, 2021 23:29


Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 13:45

Thanks to Irix and CaptainCorella I made a little progress.
Harriet indeed married Ali Hafez and the had a daughter Leila in 1937.
After returning from Egypt she indeed met Norman Birch and they had a son named David, born in 1948. But in between those two "events" there is a period of almost 10 years (!) including the period of Second World War. And lots of things can happen in 10 years.
I phoned official bodies in the U.K., but "thanks to" corona I do get responses by tape recordings. I subsequently forwarded two emails with several "to the point questions", which were received and the mail response was that they would contact me soon. I'm pretty exited cool smiley

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: February 17, 2021 14:35

Quote
georgie48

Harriet indeed married Ali Hafez and the had a daughter Leila in 1937. After returning from Egypt she indeed met Norman Birch and they had a son named David, born in 1948. But in between those two "events" there is a period of almost 10 years (!) including the period of Second World War. And lots of things can happen in 10 years.

Harriet Stanley (1916-1972) married the Egyptian engineering student Ali Hafez end of 1936 in Liverpool. They moved to Cairo where Liela Hafiz (1937-2012) was born. Ali died by a medical accident. The widowed Harriet had then due to WWII passport/visa problems but she and Liela returned in 1941 from Cairo to Liverpool by a troop ship. Harriet married in 1942 the Royal Army officer (RASC) Norman Birch (*29-Sep-1914). Their son David was born in 1948. - [www.Amazon.co.uk] , [iorr.org] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-17 15:45 by Irix.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 15:43

Quote
Irix
Quote
georgie48

Harriet indeed married Ali Hafez and the had a daughter Leila in 1937. After returning from Egypt she indeed met Norman Birch and they had a son named David, born in 1948. But in between those two "events" there is a period of almost 10 years (!) including the period of Second World War. And lots of things can happen in 10 years.

Harriet Stanley married the Egyptian engineering student Ali Hafez end of 1936 in Liverpool. They moved to Cairo where Liela Hafiz (1937-2012) was born. Ali died in an accident. The widowed Harriet had then due to WWII passport/visa problems but she and Liela returned in 1941 from Cairo to Liverpool by a troop ship. Harriet married in 1942 Norman Birch (*29-Sep-1914). Their son David was born in 1948. - [www.Amazon.co.uk] , [iorr.org] .

I checked and Harriet married Ali B. Hafez in 1936. I also found that their daughter Leila (sometimes mentioned as Liela) is also linked to a person named N N Harvey. This male appears to be misterious, because no relatives or anything is found on him. Since Harriet lived in Egypt and couldn't return "just like that" to England due to the war, some "arrangement" had to be made in Egypt and then she was shipped back to England on a troop ship some time in 1941 (more date details on that journey would be helpful). Back there she met Norman Birch (or?).
I also read "Lennon" by Tim Riley and found some weird mistakes. Like "he heard a bell ringing but didn't know where the sound came from".
To be continued ... winking smiley

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: February 17, 2021 15:55

Except a 'mysterious' person (N N Harvey) there seems until now no single trace of a connection to Brian Jones. What would Brain's kinship relations be like on the part of his uncle?

Btw: 5-Jun-1955 - Liela Hafiz became later on Dr. Liela Harvey - [www.Amazon.co.uk] , [BeatleMail.com] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-17 16:05 by Irix.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 16:21

Not yet, Irix.
This NN Harvey appears to be Liela's husband?

Were there any exact dates (day/month) mentioned on the events, like when Hafez died and when the troop ship left from Egypt to England and when it arrived in Lennon's Letters? I doubt it. Maybe it's possible to trace those dates back (war documents?). I'll give it a shot anyway.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: February 17, 2021 16:28

Like I said again: all genealogy info in the UK is available through Ancestry, Genesreunited and FreeBDM. Georgie48 dismissed those sources as rubbish. I developed a simple algorithm that checked all the databases automatically. There is NO connection whatsoever...wait a minute...John and Brian were related through Adam and Eve! Georgie48 will dismiss this post without any doubt, and that judgement is up to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-17 16:28 by paulspendel.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 16:52

Quote
paulspendel
Like I said again: all genealogy info in the UK is available through Ancestry, Genesreunited and FreeBDM. Georgie48 dismissed those sources as rubbish. I developed a simple algorithm that checked all the databases automatically. There is NO connection whatsoever...wait a minute...John and Brian were related through Adam and Eve! Georgie48 will dismiss this post without any doubt, and that judgement is up to you.

Hi Paul,
I didn't say "rubbish", but ... "what a joke". Like I said before, I, for different reasons, have checked quite some genealogy sites and my experience has been that many are far from complete and from time to time provide wrong information. That doesn't mean that they are useless (they can be helpful for a next step in ones search), but certainly not always reliable. As a former analytical chemist I learned from a young age to not take anything (like so called "facts") for granted.
The fact that you haven't found anything to me only means that you don't have anything that might be useful.
Also, my purpose is not to write a book or anything, so I move on in my own way and hopefully be helpful to (English) people that I carry in my heart.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: February 17, 2021 17:12

Quote
georgie48
Not yet, Irix.
This NN Harvey appears to be Liela's husband?

Were there any exact dates (day/month) mentioned on the events, like when Hafez died and when the troop ship left from Egypt to England and when it arrived in Lennon's Letters? I doubt it. Maybe it's possible to trace those dates back (war documents?). I'll give it a shot anyway.


Record of Harriet and Lila (4 years old) returning from Egypt. Their Proposed address in the UK is 241 Menlove Ave, Liverpool. They are in 2nd class and have an Egyptian passport. Harriet is listed as a widow...


Name: Harriet Hafez
Arrival Age: 25
Birth Date: 1916
Port of Departure: Suez, Egypt
Arrival Date: 22 Oct 1941
Port of Arrival: Glasgow, Scotland
Ports of Voyage: Suez; Cape Town and Trinidad
Ship Name: Llangibby Castle
Shipping Line: Union-Castle Mail Steamship Company Ltd
Official Number: 161329
Household Members <Non listed>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-17 17:15 by 2000 LYFH.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 17:31

Thanks so much, 2000LYFH!!!

Yet another piece of the puzzle. Very helpful!

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: February 17, 2021 17:31

Record from: England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1984-2005


Name: Harriat Stanley
Registration Date: Oct 1936
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Spouse: Ali B Hafez
Volume Number: 8b
Page number: 465
Household Members <Non listed>

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 17:44

Quote
2000 LYFH
Record from: England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1984-2005


Name: Harriat Stanley
Registration Date: Oct 1936
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Spouse: Ali B Hafez
Volume Number: 8b
Page number: 465
Household Members

Thanks once more, 2000LYFH.
Looking at the route of the Llangibby Caste, Suez, Cape Town and Trinidad, it must have been a pretty long journey! (Obviously to avoid German ships/submarines). Also interesting is that she arrived in Glasgow with an Egyptian passport, so no British passport!

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: February 17, 2021 20:41

Record of marriage of Norman J Birch and Harriet Hafez from the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005


Name: Norman J Birch
Registration Date: Apr 1942 [May 1942] [Jun 1942]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Ince
Inferred County: Lancashire
Spouse: Harriet Hafez
Volume Number: 8c
Page Number: 287

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: February 17, 2021 20:47

Norman James Birch in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007


Name: Norman James Birch
Death Age: 77
Birth Date: 29 Sep 1914
Registration Date: Mar 1992
Registration District: Liverpool
Inferred County: Merseyside
Volume: 36
Page: 1224

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: February 17, 2021 20:53

Record of Harriet Birch in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007


Name: Harriet Birch
Death Age: 57
Birth Date: 28 May 1916
Registration Date: Oct 1973
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 1219

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: February 17, 2021 21:07

Record of Harriet Birch in the England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016


Name: Harriet Birch
Age: 57
Record Type: Cremation
Cremation Date: 21 Dec 1973
Burial Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 23:00

Quote
2000 LYFH
Record of Harriet Birch in the England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016


Name: Harriet Birch
Age: 57
Record Type: Cremation
Cremation Date: 21 Dec 1973
Burial Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Apparently Harriet was pregnant in 1941 ... It can't be from Hafez and not from Birch either. Based on what you found, she arrived in Glasgow with her four year old daughter Liela Hafez ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-17 23:08 by georgie48.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: February 17, 2021 23:35

Quote
georgie48

Apparently Harriet was pregnant in 1941 ... It can't be from Hafez and not from Birch either.

Maybe it can be found in a register if the child was given up for adoption (similar to John's half-sister Victoria/Ingrid from a Welsh soldier)?

It could also be an illegitimate child (later than 1941?) since Norman Birch stayed in the Royal Army through the Korean War until the Suez crisis in 1956 - [www.Amazon.co.uk] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-17 23:50 by Irix.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 17, 2021 23:54

Quote
Irix
Quote
georgie48

Apparently Harriet was pregnant in 1941 ... It can't be from Hafez and not from Birch either.

Maybe it can be found in a register if the child was given up for adoption (similar to John's half-sister Victoria/Ingrid from a Welsh soldier)?

It could also be an illegitimate child (later than 1941?) since Norman Birch stayed in the Royal Army through the Korean War until the Suez crisis in 1956 - [www.Amazon.co.uk] .

A child was apparently born still in 1941 ...

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: February 18, 2021 00:05

Quote
georgie48

A child was apparently born still in 1941 ...

... and must have been alive if Lennon knew about Jones.

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 18, 2021 00:06

Quote
Irix
Quote
georgie48

A child was apparently born still in 1941 ...

... and must have been alive if Lennon knew about Jones.

winking smiley

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: February 18, 2021 03:47

Quote
georgie48
Quote
Irix
Quote
georgie48

Apparently Harriet was pregnant in 1941 ... It can't be from Hafez and not from Birch either.

Maybe it can be found in a register if the child was given up for adoption (similar to John's half-sister Victoria/Ingrid from a Welsh soldier)?

It could also be an illegitimate child (later than 1941?) since Norman Birch stayed in the Royal Army through the Korean War until the Suez crisis in 1956 - [www.Amazon.co.uk] .

A child was apparently born still in 1941 ...

Fully recognising that English is not the first language of everyone here....

The final sentence above, as written, makes no real sense.

One possible meaning is that the child was "stillborn" - and the meaning of that is that the child was, sadly, born dead. (Happened with a work colleague of mine and it's beyond distressing).

So, not a spelling/meaning flame, but checking on the meaning of what has been written. :-)

--
Captain Corella
50+ Years a Fan

Re: Lennon knew about Jones ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: February 18, 2021 08:47

Quote
CaptainCorella
Quote
georgie48
Quote
Irix
Quote
georgie48

Apparently Harriet was pregnant in 1941 ... It can't be from Hafez and not from Birch either.

Maybe it can be found in a register if the child was given up for adoption (similar to John's half-sister Victoria/Ingrid from a Welsh soldier)?

It could also be an illegitimate child (later than 1941?) since Norman Birch stayed in the Royal Army through the Korean War until the Suez crisis in 1956 - [www.Amazon.co.uk] .

A child was apparently born still in 1941 ...

Fully recognising that English is not the first language of everyone here....

The final sentence above, as written, makes no real sense.

One possible meaning is that the child was "stillborn" - and the meaning of that is that the child was, sadly, born dead. (Happened with a work colleague of mine and it's beyond distressing).

So, not a spelling/meaning flame, but checking on the meaning of what has been written. :-)

Hi CC,
I was not familiar with the term “stillborn”. I understand such an experience is/ can be shocking, particularly to the parents.
For me “still” was a response on Irix’ question “later than 1941?”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-18 10:18 by georgie48.

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