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paulspendel
I also debunked Georgie48's story that Dutch television ran a BBC interview with Thorogood/Wohlin on national tv the day after Brian died. He likes to throw in fake news and see what happens.

That's a "nice" one Paul. I remember that you wrote that you had contacted the BBC and that they had erased the recording (was that a fake remark from you?)
I know you're still pissed off because I critisized your friend the corrupt police constable, but this is a cheap one from you. Be happy.

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DandelionPowderman
Yeah, of course - Julia was a Stanley

Are you saying that Brian's uncle was related to the Stanleys?

Indeed Julia was a Stanley! And you know that Julia had, if I remember well, 4 sisters. "Strange" can happen in bedrooms ...

Well, Georgie48, how about the weird story you were feeding me about the guy in the park in the know about Brian's death? A typical Georgie48 non-starter as well.

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paulspendel
It's easy, any one can check on FreeBMD. I did. No connection in any reasonable genealogical degree between Jones/Simmonds/Lennon/Stanley. Another one of Georgie48's strange stories debunked.

WoW, you're a "great journalist" or is it "sensationalist"?
FreeBMD, what a joke .... I went over many (international) family tree sites on Internet for all kinds of reasons and one thing is for sure, many are full with mistakes, incorrect information, etc. etc. Real research doesn't only take place on Internet. Internet is merely helpful as long as you have an open and critical mind. Sensationalists usually don't ...

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paulspendel
Well, Georgie48, how about the weird story you were feeding me about the guy in the park in the know about Brian's death? A typical Georgie48 non-starter as well.

For you it's a weird story, a non-starter. For me it's not at all a "weird story". Writing (sensational) books about other people (read here: Brian Jones) is one thing, writing a reliable book requires lots of patience and serious research and very, very high level analytical qualities. Paul Trynka could be a good teacher for you.

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georgie48

Indeed Julia was a Stanley! And you know that Julia had, if I remember well, 4 sisters.

They were: Mary/"Mimi" (1906–1991), Elizabeth (1908–1976), Anne (1911–1988), Julia (1914–1958) and Harriet (1916–1972) Stanley. Their parents were Annie Jane [Millward] and George Ernest Stanley - [en.Wikipedia.org] .

> Lennon knew about Jones <

Yes, indeed - but it were Alfred Lennon and Pauline Jones:

Pauline Jones had been an 18-year-old Exeter University student and a Rolling Stones fan when she met the 53-year-old Alfred Lennon (John's father) in 1966 and then married him. Alfred Lennon had two sons with Pauline Jones: David Henry Lennon (*26-Feb-1969) and Robin Francis Lennon (*22-Oct-1973). Pauline Jones was hired to help looking after Julian Lennon and also the piles of Beatles fan mail. - [en.Wikipedia.org] .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-12 23:10 by Irix.

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Hairball
John and Brian knew each other and were in cahoots, and the two came up with a plan to dominate the world.
One cold foggy night in Liverpool (or maybe it was in London), they hatched their plan after a long night of drinking at the pub.
Each would form their own band, but first they flipped a coin to see who would get what band name - John won and picked the Beatles.
It was the first time the names Beatles vs. Rolling Stones would be up against each other, and the rest is history.
But...just imagine if John had picked the The Rolling Stones as the name of his band?!!!!

A lots of theories here but this is the most trustworthy. Some say it was all about cast lots but several trustworthy informants claim it was coin flipping.

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Hairball
John and Brian knew each other and were in cahoots, and the two came up with a plan to dominate the world.
One cold foggy night in Liverpool (or maybe it was in London), they hatched their plan after a long night of drinking at the pub.
Each would form their own band, but first they flipped a coin to see who would get what band name - John won and picked the Beatles.
It was the first time the names Beatles vs. Rolling Stones would be up against each other, and the rest is history.
But...just imagine if John had picked the The Rolling Stones as the name of his band?!!!!

You could be close, Hairball It couldn't be London, because to the Quarrymen that was an alien town. Liverpool, mmm.
Also, I can't recall Lennon liking Muddy Waters and Jones hated beetles (just kidding)
I hope all is well in California. Hopefully they have a better vaccination strategy than the EU. Can you believe that the Brits and the EU are fighting a vaccin war over the heads of ordinary people? Pretty disgusting ...
Stay well!

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Irix

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georgie48

Indeed Julia was a Stanley! And you know that Julia had, if I remember well, 4 sisters.

They were: Mary/"Mimi" (1906–1991), Elizabeth (1908–1976), Anne (1911–1988), Julia (1914–1958) and Harriet (1916–1972) Stanley. Their parents were Annie Jane [Millward] and George Ernest Stanley - [en.Wikipedia.org] .

Harriet (1916-1972) could be a clue ...

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georgie48

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Irix

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georgie48

Indeed Julia was a Stanley! And you know that Julia had, if I remember well, 4 sisters.

They were: Mary/"Mimi" (1906–1991), Elizabeth (1908–1976), Anne (1911–1988), Julia (1914–1958) and Harriet (1916–1972) Stanley. Their parents were Annie Jane [Millward] and George Ernest Stanley - [en.Wikipedia.org] .

Harriet (1916-1972) could be a clue ...

What kind of bull is this? The walrus was Paul?

Either spill the beans or shut up about it already!

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Elmo Lewis

What kind of bull is this? The walrus was Paul?

Either spill the beans or shut up about it already!

Right??
Delusions of grandeur with this nonsense.

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Elmo Lewis

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georgie48

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Irix

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georgie48

Indeed Julia was a Stanley! And you know that Julia had, if I remember well, 4 sisters.

They were: Mary/"Mimi" (1906–1991), Elizabeth (1908–1976), Anne (1911–1988), Julia (1914–1958) and Harriet (1916–1972) Stanley. Their parents were Annie Jane [Millward] and George Ernest Stanley - [en.Wikipedia.org] .

Harriet (1916-1972) could be a clue ...

What kind of bull is this? The walrus was Paul?

Either spill the beans or shut up about it already!

Don't get upset, Elmo. I simply need the help of diehard Beatles fans, who surely know much more than I do. So far Irix input is helpful.
I used the Beatles vs Stones thread, Kingbeefuzz lifted it to this thread, which is fine with me, but it's sad that some get upset. If you can not be (or don't want to be) of any help, maybe you should forget about this thread instead of getting upset. It's only rock 'n' roll, man. Enjoy it.

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georgie48

Harriet (1916-1972) could be a clue ...

"Harriet, or Harrie, was the youngest of the sisters. She married an Egyptian named Ali Hafez, and after they wed, the couple moved to Cairo and had a daughter named Liela. After Ali died, Harrie returned to England with her young child and married Norman Birch of the Royal Army Service Corps. They settled in Edinburgh where the extended family typically gathered for holidays. Harrie and Norman had a son named David." - [www.Scribd.com] .

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georgie48

Quote
Hairball
John and Brian knew each other and were in cahoots, and the two came up with a plan to dominate the world.
One cold foggy night in Liverpool (or maybe it was in London), they hatched their plan after a long night of drinking at the pub.
Each would form their own band, but first they flipped a coin to see who would get what band name - John won and picked the Beatles.
It was the first time the names Beatles vs. Rolling Stones would be up against each other, and the rest is history.
But...just imagine if John had picked the The Rolling Stones as the name of his band?!!!!

You could be close, Hairball It couldn't be London, because to the Quarrymen that was an alien town. Liverpool, mmm.
Also, I can't recall Lennon liking Muddy Waters and Jones hated beetles (just kidding)
I hope all is well in California. Hopefully they have a better vaccination strategy than the EU. Can you believe that the Brits and the EU are fighting a vaccin war over the heads of ordinary people? Pretty disgusting ...
Stay well!

All is well here in Southern California georgie, relatively speaking that is, and hope all is well with you also.

Keep up the good detective work in this thread as it is a fascinating topic, and don't let the naysayers and party poopers rain on your parade.

Lennon and Jones, the Beatles and the Stones...there's more than meets the eye.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Irix

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georgie48

Harriet (1916-1972) could be a clue ...

"Harriet, or Harrie, was the youngest of the sisters. She married an Egyptian named Ali Hafez, and after they wed, the couple moved to Cairo and had a daughter named Leila. After Ali died, Harrie returned to England with her young child and married Norman Birch of the Royal Army Service Corps. They settled in Edinburgh where the extended family typically gathered for holidays. Harrie and Norman had a son named David." - [www.Scribd.com] .

Thanks Irix. I knew this, but what would be very helpful are the dates. What I mean is when did she meet and later on married (when) Hafez and on what day she had his daughter, and on what date did she return to England with her daughter, married Birch (his job at the Royal Army Service Corps -where? - could be a clue too) and had her son David (born on ...)? That would be of great help. I couldn't figure that out yet.

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georgie48

What I mean is when did she meet and later on married (when) Hafez and on what day she had his daughter

"Harriet Stanley married Ali B Hafez between October 1936 and December 1936, in Liverpool South, Lancashire, England." - [www.myHeritage.com] .

"Liela al Hafiz/Birch - Relationship: Cousin of John Lennon - Born: 1937 Egypt. Liela is the daughter of Harriet Stanley and her first husband Ali Hafez." - [en.Wikipedia.org] .

"Harriet 'Harrie' Hafez (born Stanley) married Norman James Birch (born September 29 1914, in West Derby, England). They had one child." - [www.myHeritage.com] .

"Harriet and Liela returned from Cairo to Liverpool in 1941. Harriet married Norman Birch in 1942. They had one son, David, born 1948." - [www.Amazon.co.uk] .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-14 01:00 by Irix.

Just to let you know, Irix.
I analyzed Lennon's 2010 biography, but it contained little information about his early years (read: before he "added" Paul to his Querrymen). What I do know is that at some point he invited Paul to his house (read: aunt Mimi's house), went upstairs to his room with Paul right away, ignoring his aunt's remark that "tea was ready". The two jammed in his room with Paul doing some singing.

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georgie48

The two jammed in his room with Paul doing some singing.

This must have been earliest July 6, 1957, when the Quarrymen performed at a garden party of the parish of Liverpool-Woolton. After the first of the two concerts, Lennon was introduced to 15-year-old Paul McCartney by his school friend Ivan Vaughan. Lennon was impressed when McCartney performed a version of the Cochran song 'Twenty Flight Rock' with a lyrical confidence. A few days later he was accepted into the group. The first joint performance took place on October 18, 1957, at Liverpool's New Clubmoor Hall. -- (Translated from the German version of Wikipedia).


"On July 6, 1957, the Quarrymen played at St. Peters Church garden fete in Woolton. They played outdoors, performing Lonnie Donegans songs Cumberland Gap and Railroad Bill, along with their own version of the Liverpool folk song Maggie May. After the outdoor performance, they set up in the social hall for the evening show where the boys entertained the crowd with other songs that were popular among the young people in attendance at the event. Johns childhood friend Ivy Vaughan attended the event with his good friend, a 15-year-old boy named Paul McCartney. During a break in the show, Paul kindly offered to tune Johns guitar, something John was uncertain how to do, and then he casually began to play Eddie Cochrans hit 'Twenty Flight Rock' and Gene Vincents 'Be-Bop-a-Lula'. John was impressed but had some reservations about taking Paul into the group: I half thought to myself, 'He's as good as me'. I'd been kingpin up to then. Now, I thought, 'If I take him on, what will happen?' It went through my head that I'd have to keep him in line if I let him join. Later, John remembered that he asked Paul to join the band at this event, but others report that it was really Pete Shotton who, at Johns request, invited Paul into the group a few weeks later. Paul became Johns guitar tutor, something that was not particularly easy because Paul was left handed. Paul could tune a guitar, and he knew the lyrics to dozens of hit songs. The two studied Bert Wheedons guitar instruction manual, but they were not able to really watch and study someone else playing a guitar. Aunt Mimi did not approve of Johns friendship with Paul because Paul was from the working class, but this did not deter John. Mimi never approved of any of his friends, except perhaps Nigel, whose father was a police sergeant. But Pauls father did not approve of Pauls friendship with John either. He thought John would get Paul into trouble. Julia was another story. She liked Paul and felt sorry for him that he had lost his mother at such a young age. There were similarities between the two boys. They both had Irish ancestry, and both of their fathers had an interest in music. Jim McCartney led a small dance band, and he played the piano, and Alfred Lennon loved to sing and perform. Both boys were artistic and intellectual, and both loved to read. Paul enjoyed the Richmal Crompton Just William books, and he could quote Chaucer and Shakespeare. They shared an enjoyment for nonsense, from Lewis Carroll to the Goon Show, a popular radio comedy show that ran from 1951 to 1960, full of absurd plots, puns, and silly sound effects. But there were clearly differences between Paul and John as well. John was raised in the middle class, while Paul was considered to be working class, no small matter in England where class distinctions remained strong. Perhaps even more apparent were differences in their personalities. John flew off the handle or sulked when he was angry, while Paul engaged in sneak attacks. Paul was not reckless like John. When Paul joined the Quarrymen, he attempted to make some changes in the band. Some happened: the boys began to dress in a similar, more professional style, with matching black jeans, white shirts, and Western boot-lace ties. Other suggestions were not realized: changing the share manager Nigel Wally received to a lower rate, or getting rid of Colin Hanton, whose drum playing was inadequate for Paul. The Quarrymen began to play a regular gig at Charles McBains at the New Clubmoore Hall in Norris Green, a residential area in Liverpool, and the Wilson Hall in Garston, a constituency in the southern part of Liverpool. Garston had a reputation for drawing a tough crowd of local Teds, and they loved rock and roll music. John was happy to oblige, particularly now that Paul was part of the band and could sing the Eddie Cochran, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Little Richard numbers the audience wanted to hear. One consequence of the shift to rock music was that the Quarrymen no longer needed Pete Shotton to play the washboard, and he soon left the band, spending less and less time with John as Paul and Johns relationship developed. Paul and John began to distance themselves from the other Quarrymen as well, holding practice sessions on their own, often at Pauls house on Forthlin Road, just a minutes walk from Julias place. Here the two would spend time playing guitars, writing music together, and listening to the radio, including Buddy Holly and the Crickets new single that was topping the UK charts in November 1957 - 'That'll Be the Day'." -- [www.Scribd.com] , [www.Amazon.co.uk] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-13 23:10 by Irix.

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Irix

Quote
georgie48

The two jammed in his room with Paul doing some singing.

This must have been earliest July 6, 1957, when the Quarrymen performed at a garden party of the parish of Liverpool-Woolton. After the first of the two concerts, Lennon was introduced to 15-year-old Paul McCartney by his school friend Ivan Vaughan. Lennon was impressed when McCartney performed a version of the Cochran song 'Twenty Flight Rock' with a lyrical confidence. A few days later he was accepted into the group. The first joint performance took place on October 18, 1957, at Liverpool's New Clubmoor Hall. -- (Translated from the German version of Wikipedia).

Thanks again Irix!
That indeed is the start of a couple of years where the (Silver) Beatles did not exist. During those years Brian was still mostly, but not always (!) "hanging/messing around in Cheltenham", before going to Scandinavia, for instance (right, paulspendel?) and The (our) Rolling Stones didn't exist.
So far so good. "Harriet and Birch" is another barrage ...

Hi Irix,
I just found out that David Birch was born in 1948 (no day/month mentioned) as son of Norman Birch and Harriet Stanley. No marriage date yet. I also noticed some remark on Harriet ... "what a dark horse, ay". What would be behind that remark?

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georgie48

What would be behind that remark?

Dunno. I've seen that too but since I'm not an native English speaker I'm very careful with with English proverbs (unsure about their real meaning).


Harriet Birch with her son David, and nephew John Lennon - [BeatlesLiverpoolLocations.Blogspot.com] . David - cousin (born 1948), son of Harriet and Norman Birch (married in 1942) - [www.Amazon.co.uk] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-14 00:45 by Irix.

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Irix

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georgie48

What would be behind that remark?

Dunno. I've seen that too but since I'm not an native English speaker I'm very careful with with English proverbs (unsure about their real meaning).

An unexpected winner.

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georgie48
Hi Irix,
I just found out that David Birch was born in 1948 (no day/month mentioned) as son of Norman Birch and Harriet Stanley. No marriage date yet. I also noticed some remark on Harriet ... "what a dark horse, ay". What would be behind that remark?

The colloquial meaning of describing someone as "a bit of a dark horse" refers to the person having more talent/ability/skills/etc than at first made known or realised.

A nice example may be that within The Beatles the dynamic was that John & Paul were the songwriters, with George getting one token song per album. After the breakup, George's first solo album - a triple album stuffed with great material - did remarkably well. He was the dark horse there.

On the substance...

There's a posting in this confusing thread that establishes why John spent several holidays as a boy in Edinburgh. Fair enough, it seems to have been with one of Mimi's sisters and her second husband.

But that, nor anything else I've seen here, links anyone mentioned to Brian Jones.

It IS an interesting prospect, and those hunting need to be sure to totally avoid citing Wikipedia. It's a great introduction to a subject being looked at, but anyone can put anything on Wikipedia, so although it's a very handy place to check some things, it is totally valueless for original and thorough research.

Further advice I'd give to folk trying to establish this link is to always fully cite your sources. That will allow others to independently verify what is being claimed by also going to the original sources. That's absolutely bog standard stuff in all research practices and works in everyone's favour.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

Thanks CC (and DP).
I agree on what you wrote about Wikipedia. I mentioned that earlier by saying that Internet can be helpful, but only if you approach it with an open mind and very analytical. Indeed references are of utmost importance (I used to be a research person myself). That is why I need to go to England to visit some city councels.
I also mentioned that for me it is also very important not to bring anyone into trouble, which limits my output (for the time being). The are people screening this site that could cause harm, either because they are greedy to get info for personal benefit or sensationalism.
I don't know if UrbanSteel is still among those who (in)frequently read IORR stuff. A sign of light (if he thinks he can) from him could be helpful too.

Quote
georgie48
Thanks CC (and DP).
I agree on what you wrote about Wikipedia. I mentioned that earlier by saying that Internet can be helpful, but only if you approach it with an open mind and very analytical. Indeed references are of utmost importance (I used to be a research person myself). That is why I need to go to England to visit some city councels.
I also mentioned that for me it is also very important not to bring anyone into trouble, which limits my output (for the time being). The are people screening this site that could cause harm, either because they are greedy to get info for personal benefit or sensationalism.
I don't know if UrbanSteel is still among those who (in)frequently read IORR stuff. A sign of light (if he thinks he can) from him could be helpful too.

I can't work out why you want to visit City Councils in the UK.

If you are researching births and deaths then they are NOT involved. I'm not up to date on the latest, but at one time that would all have been done centrally in England at a place called Somerset House.

If you are researching newspapers, then they are held in a bit of the British Library, but out at (I think) Stanmore in London. ie Not centrally.

You need to spend time researching how you can do your research before you visit the UK and actually try to do some.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

Quote
CaptainCorella

Quote
georgie48
Thanks CC (and DP).
I agree on what you wrote about Wikipedia. I mentioned that earlier by saying that Internet can be helpful, but only if you approach it with an open mind and very analytical. Indeed references are of utmost importance (I used to be a research person myself). That is why I need to go to England to visit some city councels.
I also mentioned that for me it is also very important not to bring anyone into trouble, which limits my output (for the time being). The are people screening this site that could cause harm, either because they are greedy to get info for personal benefit or sensationalism.
I don't know if UrbanSteel is still among those who (in)frequently read IORR stuff. A sign of light (if he thinks he can) from him could be helpful too.

I can't work out why you want to visit City Councils in the UK.

If you are researching births and deaths then they are NOT involved. I'm not up to date on the latest, but at one time that would all have been done centrally in England at a place called Somerset House.

If you are researching newspapers, then they are held in a bit of the British Library, but out at (I think) Stanmore in London. ie Not centrally.

You need to spend time researching how you can do your research before you visit the UK and actually try to do some.

Don't worry CC, my daughter and husband live in the U.K., so we will go there anyway (after corona is under control ).
I was in the U.K. In 2018 to see the Stones in Twickenham (with my daughter), but early 2020 something happened, which put me in that position having to come to England.
Do you mean that births are not registered per city in the U.K.? That's a bit of a surprise, because in our country they are (and in local church archives).
I will try to get in touch with Somerset House. Thanks for that info!

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CaptainCorella

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georgie48
Hi Irix,
I just found out that David Birch was born in 1948 (no day/month mentioned) as son of Norman Birch and Harriet Stanley. No marriage date yet. I also noticed some remark on Harriet ... "what a dark horse, ay". What would be behind that remark?

The colloquial meaning of describing someone as "a bit of a dark horse" refers to the person having more talent/ability/skills/etc than at first made known or realised.

A nice example may be that within The Beatles the dynamic was that John & Paul were the songwriters, with George getting one token song per album. After the breakup, George's first solo album - a triple album stuffed with great material - did remarkably well. He was the dark horse there.

On the substance...

There's a posting in this confusing thread that establishes why John spent several holidays as a boy in Edinburgh. Fair enough, it seems to have been with one of Mimi's sisters and her second husband.

But that, nor anything else I've seen here, links anyone mentioned to Brian Jones.

It IS an interesting prospect, and those hunting need to be sure to totally avoid citing Wikipedia. It's a great introduction to a subject being looked at, but anyone can put anything on Wikipedia, so although it's a very handy place to check some things, it is totally valueless for original and thorough research.

Further advice I'd give to folk trying to establish this link is to always fully cite your sources. That will allow others to independently verify what is being claimed by also going to the original sources. That's absolutely bog standard stuff in all research practices and works in everyone's favour.

George later released an album and song called "Dark Horse" on his Dark Horse record lable.

"No Anchovies, Please"

I think that Jones knew about Lennon. Case solved.

Thank you CaptainCorella for this common sense.