Basically Mick ( Jagger ) spends too much time second guessing himself and his audience when it comes to writing, maybe he shouldn't think i want to get away from this or that or be more like this or that.
Instead of just "being" ( what he is = a genius ) he looks over his shoulder and has a think about who is successful at present , what should i sound like, worrying if he will be perceived as an old fart or what ever, the guy should just let himself be who he is and put it out there and sod everyone's opinion. This is what has led to his writers block imo. He has snookered himself, check mate.

Mick is a melody maker, no doubt, he can write great lyrics, but its like he is writing lyrics for children or people with low IQ , its fake and sad. Grow up and be that God like genius, be what you are kind of thing, drop all the BS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-23 15:43 by keithsman.

I've played Crosseyed Heart more than a lot of other albums, including many Stones'.

I think Talk is Cheap and Main Offender are great. Crosseyed Heart is great, indeed, but I get some special joy when playing it that makes me love it a little more.

Memo From Turner...

Thee greatest solo stones release.

By 1968, Mick did not really need the stones to create magic, but they certainly needed him.

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His Majesty
Memo From Turner...

Thee greatest solo stones release.

By 1968, Mick did not really need the stones to create magic, but they certainly needed him.

I like the Metamorphosis-version better, though, but it's very good indeed.

For me, that version is too rushed and lacking in menace.

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DandelionPowderman


As far as musical styles go, I'd say the album is even more varied than I expected.

We got Robert Johnson-esque blues (Crosseyed Heart), rockers (Heartstopper, Amnesia, Trouble, Blues In The Morning, Substantial Damage), reggae (Love Overdue), Country (Robbed Blind), Folk (Goodnight Irene), Soul (Lover's Plea), pop (Illusion, Something For Nothing, Nothing On Me) and ballads (Just A Gift, Suspicious).

However, if you're thinking of Keith's voice, and that the way he sings can be a bit one-dimensional, I think I know what you mean.

I did not mean varied in styles, but in general in his approach. I'm not native English so forgive me if I can not express myself correctly, but I think you understand.

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His Majesty
Memo From Turner...

Thee greatest solo stones release.

By 1968, Mick did not really need the stones to create magic, but they certainly needed him.

Mmmm , funny how people always bring that one up as Micks saving grace, we gotta go back 50 years to feel great about a Jagger solo track

I always thought it suspicious that Mick could never repeat anything like Memo From Turner, i mean where did he go, is that really the same man who released Lets Work as a single.

Always cheers me up though when i need a laugh
[www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-24 01:28 by keithsman.

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EdubertoPalitroke
I've played Crosseyed Heart more than a lot of other albums, including many Stones'.

I think Talk is Cheap and Main Offender are great. Crosseyed Heart is great, indeed, but I get some special joy when playing it that makes me love it a little more.

Same here

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keithsman

Quote
His Majesty
Memo From Turner...

Thee greatest solo stones release.

By 1968, Mick did not really need the stones to create magic, but they certainly needed him.

Mmmm , funny how people always bring that one up as Micks saving grace, we gotta go back 50 years to feel great about a Jagger solo track

I always thought it suspicious that Mick could never repeat anything like Memo From Turner, i mean where did he go, is that really the same man who released Lets Work as a single.

Always cheers me up though when i need a laugh
[www.youtube.com]

What kind of drugs are you on, keithsman? What did Mick do to you to justify your obvious hate against him?

Do you really think that Infamy is better than Let's Work? At least Mick did not consider Let's Work for a Stones album while Infamy and This Place Is Empty (which is quite ok, though) was obviously the best stuff Keith could came up with for ABB.

To clear things up: I'm neither on Mick's nor Keith's side. In fact I think that
both did not come up with more than a (small) handful of worthwile, memorable songs since approximately 3 decades by now. That's a lot of time! There's some good stuff on VL and BTB (and to a much lesser extent AB, plus Main Offender and Wandering Spirit. And, of course, Jagger's "Blue" from 2001, a single standalone track that smokes everything our darlings have done since then, Stones or solo.

And your "general consensus" talk concerning CH - I think you tend to overlook the numerous criticial remarks here on this board since its release. But I certainly don't hate CH - it's just not my first stop when I want to listen to Keith Richards solo, and that has to do with the quality of the songs - in the same way my first stop would not be Goddess In the Doorway when I want to listen to Jagger solo because Wandering Spirit has the better songs.

While both albums (CH and Goddess) are interesting and well performed, they lack the song quality I would expect from people who wrote all these classic Stones tunes. Maybe the well is dry?

I've mentioned before that imho, the Stones are more or less creatively dead since decades by now. The great blues covers album does not count because they're covers.

It remains to be seen if the new album will change the general picture. I certainly hope so. At least it seems that they're trying to avoid "just another Stones by numbers" album.

But I can already see you gearing up for the case the new album fails - it will all be Mick's fault and Mick's fault alone, while a great new album will entirely be Keith's success, right?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-24 09:55 by retired_dog.

You are so funny retired dog, the way you assume that to think Lets Work is embarrassing means i must be doing drugs, lol, No pal , i don't do drugs, never have never will, don't drink either these days if you must know.

BTW Infamy is terrible, a low point for Keith, but he had the good sense not to keep it and release it as a solo single.

To clear things up i'm not on Mick or Keith's side either, i was in awe of Mick the last 4 or 5 times i saw them live this year and last ( although tired of the set lists.) if anything i am hoping that Mick comes up with the goods on the new album, i still think he has it in him if he approaches song writing in a different way, as i mentioned on the previous page ( i'll send it again below )

Basically Mick ( Jagger ) spends too much time second guessing himself and his audience when it comes to writing, maybe he shouldn't think i want to get away from this or that or be more like this or that.
Instead of just "being" ( what he is = a genius ) he looks over his shoulder and has a think about who is successful at present , what should i sound like, worrying if he will be perceived as an old fart or what ever, the guy should just let himself be who he is and put it out there and sod everyone's opinion. This is what has led to his writers block imo. He has snookered himself, check mate.

Mick is a melody maker, no doubt, he can write great lyrics, but its like he is writing lyrics for children or people with low IQ , its fake and sad. Grow up and be that God like genius, be what you are kind of thing, drop all the BS

I mean what was Mick thinking with Lets Work, even the concept of the video that was released with it is pants, lets work and end poverty by all doing the Prancercise along the freeway with all the traffic going past. ( dangerous way to end poverty for a start ) I think Mick spent an obscene amount of money on that video, i just don't understand why you Mick diehards don't give it up and admit that Lets Work was awefull compared to Memo From Turner.
I mean seriously ? am i being controversial here ? is it hating Mick to suggest that he forget about impressing Taylor Swift fans and concentrate on making a good Stones album for Stones fans. Send a message out there, this is The Rolling Stones and it had better be good.

Ok i'm tired of all this crap, i'll be back for the new album and tour.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-24 12:25 by keithsman.

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keithsman
You are so funny retired dog, the way you assume that to think Lets Work is embarrassing means i must be doing drugs, lol, No pal , i don't do drugs, never have never will, don't drink either these days if you must know.

BTW Infamy is terrible, a low point for Keith, but he had the good sense not to keep it and release it as a solo single.

To clear things up i'm not on Mick or Keith's side either, i was in awe of Mick the last 4 or 5 times i saw them live this year and last ( although tired of the set lists.( if anything i am hoping that Mick comes up with the goods on the new album, i still think he has it in him if he approaches song writing in a different way, as i mentioned on the previous page ( i'll send it again below )

Basically Mick ( Jagger ) spends too much time second guessing himself and his audience when it comes to writing, maybe he shouldn't think i want to get away from this or that or be more like this or that.
Instead of just "being" ( what he is = a genius ) he looks over his shoulder and has a think about who is successful at present , what should i sound like, worrying if he will be perceived as an old fart or what ever, the guy should just let himself be who he is and put it out there and sod everyone's opinion. This is what has led to his writers block imo. He has snookered himself, check mate.

Mick is a melody maker, no doubt, he can write great lyrics, but its like he is writing lyrics for children or people with low IQ , its fake and sad. Grow up and be that God like genius, be what you are kind of thing, drop all the BS

No, I did not assume that, not at all, please read my post again. In case you don't get what I meant, I'll help with further explanations.

Keith may have had the good sense not to release Infamy as a solo single, but he included it on a Stones album, what is at least a similar, if not even greater crime than what Mick did with Let's Work.

Writer's block - well, if anything, like I said I blame both for not coming up with substantial song material one "would expect from people who wrote all these classic Stones tunes" since decades now - and that counts for solo and Stones projects. I would not call it writer's block, it's more that the well for A 1 songs has obviously run dry.

Why is this thread getting side tracked into misguided verbal attacks on keithman? I myself know Jagger is the greatest frontman the world has known, and he is a stellar musician, but most of the thoughts on Jagger coming from K'man in this thread have been right on. I agree with them.

Quote
keithsman

Quote
His Majesty
Memo From Turner...

Thee greatest solo stones release.

By 1968, Mick did not really need the stones to create magic, but they certainly needed him.

Mmmm , funny how people always bring that one up as Micks saving grace, we gotta go back 50 years to feel great about a Jagger solo track

I always thought it suspicious that Mick could never repeat anything like Memo From Turner, i mean where did he go, is that really the same man who released Lets Work as a single.

Always cheers me up though when i need a laugh
[www.youtube.com]

I only brought it up because I think it is sooo good!

Mick and Keith's solo projects are, for me, mostly all forgettable, nice at best things.

Memo From Turner is one amazing, freak one off exception and it's probably all just down to the timing of the thing. It is on same level as the very best the band put out. A solo stone in 1968 is a very different thing to a solo stone in 1988.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-24 13:27 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty


Memo From Turner is one amazing, freak one off exception and it's probably all just down to the timing of the thing. It is on same level as the very best the band put out. A solo stone in 1968 is a very different thing to a solo stone in 1988.

Yes, it is. I also rank it to the level of the best stuff relaesed at the time - next to things like "Sympathy For The Devil", "Street Fighting Man", "Gimme Shelter", "You Can't Always Get What You Want". They were at the height of their creative powers back then.

A funny oddity of "Memo From Turner" is that it is due to Keith Richards that it really turned out to be a Jagger solo release. Keith for well-known reasons wasn't into PERFORMANCE at all, so his heart and will wasn't totally presented when the Stones tried to cut a song for its soundtrack, which was to be heard in results. Seemingly Dandie prefers the METAMORPHOSIS version (the Stones one), but I think quite many finds the version rather breathless and 'by-numbers', not being able to express the quality and edge the song has. At least Jagger did. So a frustrated Jagger turned into the help of other musicians to finish the song.

This is at least the story told in Philip Norman's book.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-24 14:48 by Doxa.

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keithsman
... I don't get the impression people are tired of it or that the tracks don't hold up to Keith's previous solo albums. It was a great effort from an old man against the odds..
As far as the songs on it not being so good as HIWYL or TISH, there is plenty of as good material, and with 16 tracks there are even more with wider variety than on his previous solo albums.

Spot on! As much as I love the first 2, there's something special about x-eyed heart, it's my favorite Keith album!

Cheers Palace Revolution and that's nice LeonidP, back on topic after the Hijack i think Crosseyed Heart is Keith's swansong as a solo release, it's his master piece in a way, it was from the heart and it was Keith being Keith with no ulterior motive other than to give one final gift to his fans.
I was so grateful Steve Jordan twisted Keith's arm into doing it.
I agree it's better than TIC and MO, the drums were too loud on TIC and Main Offender just didn't have the versatility of CH or the depth.
Keith's previous two albums were a great lead up and preparation for CH imho.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-24 18:18 by keithsman.

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Palace Revolution 2000
Why is this thread getting side tracked into misguided verbal attacks on keithman? I myself know Jagger is the greatest frontman the world has known, and he is a stellar musician, but most of the thoughts on Jagger coming from K'man in this thread have been right on. I agree with them.

It's good that you know all this about Jagger, but when keithsman claimed that after Memo From Turner, nothing substantial came from Mick in terms of solo recordings and brought Let's Work up, this thread needed some perspective, not least because it's keithsman who repeatedly turns interesting discussions into this Keith vs. Mick 14 years-old teenage magazine level.

If I agree or disagree with his thoughts on Jagger is not the point, it's just his one-sidedness that strikes me, not least because I tend to believe we're all Stones (the band!) fans here, while at the same time I made it perfectly clear that I have problems with the songwriting skills of both of these men since a quite long time by now.

Quote
retired_dog

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Why is this thread getting side tracked into misguided verbal attacks on keithman? I myself know Jagger is the greatest frontman the world has known, and he is a stellar musician, but most of the thoughts on Jagger coming from K'man in this thread have been right on. I agree with them.

It's good that you know all this about Jagger, but when keithsman claimed that after Memo From Turner, nothing substantial came from Mick in terms of solo recordings and brought Let's Work up, this thread needed some perspective, not least because it's keithsman who repeatedly turns interesting discussions into this Keith vs. Mick 14 years-old teenage magazine level.

If I agree or disagree with his thoughts on Jagger is not the point, it's just his one-sidedness that strikes me, not least because I tend to believe we're all Stones (the band!) fans here, while at the same time I made it perfectly clear that I have problems with the songwriting skills of both of these men since a quite long time by now.

Its refreshing today that you challenge me in a grown up manner at last rather than coming over as Doxas Poodle, or like some crying baby trying to get me banned. It's good that you approach me rather than just give a thumbs up to another poster criticizing me, but still even on this post you discuss me in the third person lol. Pathetic like Lem.



The point you miss about the things i have to say on Mick is that i honestly believe posters don't try to get inside the mind of Mick, i would like to discuss exactly where Mick has gone wrong creatively, i would love nothing better than Mick to prove me wrong and come out strong on the New album, i even have a feeling that he will surprise us.

I go back to Lets Work because its very important, it distinguishes a turning point in Mick, the moment he went from being a genius to being normal.
It's as though he forgot who he was and how important an artist he is and what he had achieved.
So he gets bored with the Stones in the early 80's and decides he has something to offer on his own terms without Keith, and he comes up with nothing better than Lets Work. I mean what was going on here, in what universe did he think it worthwhile in any regard, it was meaningless drivel, it was like he thinks to himself i want to make a song like Centerfold by the J Geils band and comes up with centerfold for Kids,( Lets Work TOTP [www.youtube.com] ) or he wants to be like Prince but comes up with Just Another Night with his mock feminine voice.
This happened a long time ago but i don't think Mick has found himself as an artist since. What is he ashamed of, does he so desperately want to get away from Keith and their incredible song writing partnership that he turns his back on what he is best at.
For all the praise of Keith's solo albums it leaves me with the realization that Keith has been forced to save his best work for himself, i'm not complaining but i wonder what material Keith might have come up with over the past 35 years if he had Mick on-board in a supportive role, because Keith does need Mick to get the best out of his music, but not this Mick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-24 19:56 by keithsman.

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keithsman

Quote
retired_dog

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Why is this thread getting side tracked into misguided verbal attacks on keithman? I myself know Jagger is the greatest frontman the world has known, and he is a stellar musician, but most of the thoughts on Jagger coming from K'man in this thread have been right on. I agree with them.

It's good that you know all this about Jagger, but when keithsman claimed that after Memo From Turner, nothing substantial came from Mick in terms of solo recordings and brought Let's Work up, this thread needed some perspective, not least because it's keithsman who repeatedly turns interesting discussions into this Keith vs. Mick 14 years-old teenage magazine level.

If I agree or disagree with his thoughts on Jagger is not the point, it's just his one-sidedness that strikes me, not least because I tend to believe we're all Stones (the band!) fans here, while at the same time I made it perfectly clear that I have problems with the songwriting skills of both of these men since a quite long time by now.

Its refreshing today that you challenge me in a grown up manner at last rather than coming over as Doxas Poodle, or like some crying baby trying to get me banned. It's good that you approach me rather than just give a thumbs up to another poster criticizing me, but still even on this post you discuss me in the third person lol. Pathetic like Lem.



The point you miss about the things i have to say on Mick is that i honestly believe posters don't try to get inside the mind of Mick, i would like to discuss exactly where Mick has gone wrong creatively, i would love nothing better than Mick to prove me wrong and come out strong on the New album, i even have a feeling that he will surprise us.

I go back to Lets Work because its very important, it distinguishes a turning point in Mick, the moment he went from being a genius to being normal.
It's as though he forgot who he was and how important an artist he is and what he had achieved.
So he gets bored with the Stones in the early 80's and decides he has something to offer on his own terms without Keith, and he comes up with nothing better than Lets Work. I mean what was going on here, in what universe did he think it worthwhile in any regard, it was meaningless drivel, it was like he thinks to himself i want to make a song like Centerfold by the J Geils band and comes up with centerfold for Kids,( Lets Work TOTP [www.youtube.com] ) or he wants to be like Prince but comes up with Just Another Night with his mock feminine voice.
This happened a long time ago but i don't think Mick has found himself as an artist since. What is he ashamed of, does he so desperately want to get away from Keith and their incredible song writing partnership that he turns his back on what he is best at.
For all the praise of Keith's solo albums it leaves me with the realization that Keith has been forced to save his best work for himself, i'm not complaining but i wonder what material Keith might have come up with over the past 35 years if he had Mick on-board in a supportive role, because Keith does need Mick to get the best out of his music, but not this Mick.

When did I ever do that? Don't you think accusations like these look a bit paranoiac on your side? And if you want to be "challenged in a grown up manner" don't you think it's high time for yourself to start behaving in "a grown up manner" instead of calling people with different opinions "Doxa and his poodles" or the like? You're obviously strong in insulting people who don't agree with you, but quickly whiney when it backfires to you.

And good luck to you in your ongoing try "to get inside the mind of Mick", don't forget to notify this board once you finally succeed.

Ok , have you finished now

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keithsman
Ok , have you finished now

As you're running out of steam, I let you off the hook - for now!

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retired_dog

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keithsman
Ok , have you finished now

As you're running out of steam, I let you off the hook - for now!

You win











For now

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keithsman

Quote
retired_dog

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keithsman
Ok , have you finished now

As you're running out of steam, I let you off the hook - for now!

You win












For now

No winners, no losers here...just (slightly) different opinions on certain topics...

It's time for some peace in the valley...

See you later, alligator...





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 03:25 by retired_dog.

Amen to that dawg

some notes on some of the last pages suggestions

I do dream of a full morocco ensemble to play live on stage continental drift with the stones, brilliant song, best song along with slipping away on sw (which i barely listen to now)

I do keep listening to CH, it is a keeper for sure, and though I would rate it just a step down from TIC, to compare it with GOTD is something I cant understand, the latter is not just worse than WS but completely forgettable and forgotten per se

Lets Work video is one of the rare rare rare times in which Mick's strive to be up to date, avanguard, cutting edge has been successfull. the song is just a (funny) joke but Rybczy?ski video is pure genius, imo. Something Bowie or Peter Gabriel could have done in the late eighties.

my 2 cents



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-26 15:40 by maumau.

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retired_dog
Do you really think that Infamy is better than Let's Work?

Yes. A LOT. And Infamy is pretty bad.

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keithsman
Always cheers me up though when i need a laugh
[www.youtube.com]

Please don't promote something that, like a Stones album released in 1986 that should've been released as a 4 track EP, should be deleted from the history of music.

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GasLightStreet

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keithsman
Always cheers me up though when i need a laugh
[www.youtube.com]

Please don't promote something that, like a Stones album , in 1986 that should've been released as a 4 track EP, should be deleted from the history of music.

Hehe, yeah that was bellow the belt These sort of things leave scars that won't heal no matter how much time as passed, we forgive but we can't forget

Seriously though, after that video and the TOTP and Countdown promotional live rehearsed performances of Lets Work, i knew then that no matter what Mick does from here on, it will never be quite the same, Keith must have been grinning all the way to the bank.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-27 14:54 by keithsman.

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keithsman

Quote
GasLightStreet

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keithsman
Always cheers me up though when i need a laugh
[www.youtube.com]

Please don't promote something that, like a Stones album , in 1986 that should've been released as a 4 track EP, should be deleted from the history of music.

Hehe, yeah that was bellow the belt These sort of things leave scars that won't heal no matter how much time as passed, we forgive but we can't forget

Seriously though, after that video and the TOTP and Countdown promotional live rehearsed performances of Lets Work, i knew then that no matter what Mick does from here on, it will never be quite the same, Keith must have been grinning all the way to the bank.

You bring up a point without saying it directly but perhaps Let's Work can be the pinpointing of when Mick had nothing but yes men around him. Although that does not explain the 1986 disaster, of which there were obviously yes men involved for that tragedy to be allowed to come out.

Quote
GasLightStreet

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keithsman

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GasLightStreet

Quote
keithsman
Always cheers me up though when i need a laugh
[www.youtube.com]

Please don't promote something that, like a Stones album , in 1986 that should've been released as a 4 track EP, should be deleted from the history of music.

Hehe, yeah that was bellow the belt These sort of things leave scars that won't heal no matter how much time as passed, we forgive but we can't forget

Seriously though, after that video and the TOTP and Countdown promotional live rehearsed performances of Lets Work, i knew then that no matter what Mick does from here on, it will never be quite the same, Keith must have been grinning all the way to the bank.

You bring up a point without saying it directly but perhaps Let's Work can be the pinpointing of when Mick had nothing but yes men around him. Although that does not explain the 1986 disaster, of which there were obviously yes men involved for that tragedy to be allowed to come out.

It's confusing because we get the impression that Mick was doing solo promotion when DW was being completed, he himself says in interviews that he thought the making of DW went on for too long. Its very contradictory depending to who you listen to. At the time everyone said DW was Keith's baby.
So i guess Mick is saying that the making of DW went on for so long that it merged into Micks involvement with his solo album, so Mick can be forgiven in that regard. DW really is an example of what can happen to Keith when he is given too much rope, he kind of hung himself

Lets Work is an example of what happens to Mick when he has full control. I see what you mean by yes men. England Lost is another example, my God if ever there is an examples of be careful of what you wish for.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-28 03:25 by keithsman.