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Generalising can be a dangerous experiment, Doxa, although I agree with some of your sentiments.
As Wild Slivovitz stated, songs like Break The Spell has that old magic, unpredictability and danger indeed.
Mick's guitar playing on SG was almost symbolic - filling in, at best - compared to him taking on a heavy load of it on SW.
Hmm, I think "Break The Spell" has that same 'let's do something easy and bluesy to warm up the engine' attitude as, say, "Had It With You" has. But I don't sense there too much passion, but more like the guys using their natural talent effortlessly.
But what goes for the idea of Jagger's guitar spoiling the classical danger element in Stones sound, I guess it is easy for you guitar experts reduce anything to that
, but for me there is a lot more in it. Even though I also 'blame' mostly Jagger, I think it has more to do with his attitude altogether towards the Stones, and its music, that is the problem here. He just didn't see any longer the Stones as the medium of expression of which his career was depending on.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-17 13:17 by Doxa.
True, and I admit that I may sound too categorical sometimes, but I actually see things more like in certain tendencies, of which I try to explicate... But this leaves room for exceptions, over-lapping, grey areas and all that.
- Doxa
Probably has been one of the greatest things in the last half of their career.
It would have been, had they recorded it 5 years later.
It already is IMO
You can't hear the tension and the creepiness in that track???
Both.
I think "Continental Drift" is easily the most interesting and memorable song in the whole album. It captures beautifully so many interesting things together; probably for the last time The Stones are convincingly fitting their past (we all know the old Morocco/Brian Jones history) to a current trend ('world music'), and sound like enrichening their musical vocabulary.
I think the 'hidden' Brian Jones reference in it - Mick and Keith actually looking back - was a part of the new attitude with which The Stones started to look at their career, and also recognized their non-guitar rock/pre-Jumping Jack Flash/BEGGARS BANQUET history. The addition of pre-JJF stuff like "Paint It Black", "Ruby Tuesday", "2000 Light Years From Home" to their repertuare in the following tour belongs to the new approach. In a way they started this alraedy in 1981/82 tour, but this time the past was treated with more respect in its own terms.
Someone mentioned above that STEEL WHEELS is their most "pop album". I agree with that. At the same time it fitted nicely to the mindset of late 80's, it actually is, with its melodical and experimential richness and lightful attitude, a nod to their 60's pop days (66/67). Funnily, in that sense they actually succeeded in that in which they failed with UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK: offering a suitable Stones interpretation of the times. Those two albums sound probably still too much coming out of the 'dark times' associated to them for so long to fit the atmosphere then.
- Doxa
To hear Continentel Drift the very first time, for me, was a nice surprise: the tribal tunes took me back to Brian and his JouJouKa experiences.
And for me this song is a tribute to the original roots of The Rolling Stones: african native music.
And, for me, this is the basic reason what makes the most difference between The Rolling Stones and The Beatles.
But all those feelings and thinkings are only by some fans who know the band for years. All the other - and may be the younger - fans want to listen to the "modern" tunes. For those, Continentel Drift will be a little scary, first. And for some people it is, still ...
HighwireC
It's the same with several songs on the album. The echo, the reverb, the delay, the synths, the sequencers. You name it...
Heart For Sale is beautiful, and Keith's guitar (not the lead rhythm guitar filled to the unrecognisable with echo) and Mick's harp in particular. I love the verses and the bridge. Great stuff
I don't think UNDERCOVER was that fitting to the mindset of 1983, and even though I loved it so much at the time, I don't think it has very much musical or thematical resonance with the world. It was 'just another Stones album', and sounding like what the Stones supposed to sound with some current production make-up. (But yeah, I know for people like you Dandie and Mathijs it was more than that). Even though it got good reviews (like every damn Stones album ever since, "best since EXILE", blahblahblah), its sales weren't that convincing, compared to their previous ones, and it was the first new Stones studio album since the 60's that couldn't top the Billboard, and even though the video of "Undercover of The Night" gathered a lot of attention, the song didn't turn out to be any big hit or hit the 'nerve' of the times. I think UNDERCOVER was an equavalent of IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL from the previous decade: the guys were starting to repeat their old ideas, and not exactly couldn't reflect the world changing around them, no matter how much they tried (and I am not that convinced that even tried so much actually in both cases - they were getting lazy, and the muse was not so easy-going any longer).
What goes for the "darkness" in those STEEL WHEELS. Probably "Drift" has it, in the sense the Stones were dark in their 'pop days' of 1966 and 1967, which was different than in those really threatening and dangerous late 60's and early 70's days (or the decadent, ironical, mean SOME GIRLS era days). I find both "Break The Spell" and "Hearts For Sale" such throwaway songs that calling them 'dark' makes the word have no meaning. But I guess there is something like that in them somewhere, even though I don't get that. I don't own that microscope...
"Sweet Neo-Con" - what makes that 'dark'? Its political message, a good one though, but served with such childishly and corny way, both musically and lyrically? Artificial, a light-weight song by all means.
Altogether, I think the Stones lost that natural 'dark', as 'dangerous' as well, approach and nature of theirs in their doings from STEEL WHEELS on, and they don't sound convincing in trying to express emotions like that ever since. Some lyrical witty tricks or 'mean' guitar is just not enough. It is like if Jagger mentions the word "tits" or "ass" in a song, that won't take the song very sexy...
- Doxa
the song in general. Its probably the best thing theyve done post-Tattoo You.
I would say Continental Drift AND How Can I Stop are the best they've done since Some Girls
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 17, 2013 13:00
Quote
Doxa
I think losing the element of danger - which to me is pretty much associated with passion - is not to read off from what they are doing there (for example, Jagger picking up the guitar during SOME GIRLS sessions, didn't have that effect), but what has been happening with the group dynamics since the Pathe Marconi days. In STEEL WHEELS there is that feeling that after all those 'World War III' years, the old gang is back again, and enjoys a bit too much of that very fact that they are together again. The implicit nostalgia - reference to the glory past - is probably the glue which makes them function at all (and all the negative things and tensions are kept out of the table). It is the first time I recognize The Stones taking that 'okay, let's be the Stones and sound like them' attitude on. All the way to UNDERCOVER as far as I can see The Stones didn't think that way, or that attitude didn't even had occured them, since they were a functioning band all the time, making new music about every year, and like naturally adapting the current new things to their funded experience. There were not radical 'stops', and the 'danger' was a natural part of their game, with which they were learned to live with.
I don't think if I used right words, but to me there is a clear difference in attitude towards music - and how they see The Stones - in STEEL WHEELS, which marks their new music ever since. My educated guess is that it has very much to do with Mick Jagger (but for the rest of them as well, The Stones were not any longer their full-time job but an excursion from their semi-retirement.)
Even though STEEL WHEELS is not a "retro album" like VOODOO LOUNGE - no, it actually presents a rather 'novel' sound world with rather bravy experiments - I think it presents this new attitude which makes an album like VOODOO LOUNGE - "Stones for beginners" - possible.
- Doxa
Generalising can be a dangerous experiment, Doxa, although I agree with some of your sentiments.
As Wild Slivovitz stated, songs like Break The Spell has that old magic, unpredictability and danger indeed.
Mick's guitar playing on SG was almost symbolic - filling in, at best - compared to him taking on a heavy load of it on SW.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 17, 2013 13:16
Quote
DandelionPowderman
As Wild Slivovitz stated, songs like Break The Spell has that old magic, unpredictability and danger indeed.
Mick's guitar playing on SG was almost symbolic - filling in, at best - compared to him taking on a heavy load of it on SW.
Hmm, I think "Break The Spell" has that same 'let's do something easy and bluesy to warm up the engine' attitude as, say, "Had It With You" has. But I don't sense there too much passion, but more like the guys using their natural talent effortlessly.
But what goes for the idea of Jagger's guitar spoiling the classical danger element in Stones sound, I guess it is easy for you guitar experts reduce anything to that
, but for me there is a lot more in it. Even though I also 'blame' mostly Jagger, I think it has more to do with his attitude altogether towards the Stones, and its music, that is the problem here. He just didn't see any longer the Stones as the medium of expression of which his career was depending on.- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-17 13:17 by Doxa.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 17, 2013 13:59
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Generalising can be a dangerous experiment, Doxa, although I agree with some of your sentiments.
True, and I admit that I may sound too categorical sometimes, but I actually see things more like in certain tendencies, of which I try to explicate... But this leaves room for exceptions, over-lapping, grey areas and all that.
- Doxa
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
JC21769
()
Date: September 17, 2013 16:47
I like Steel Wheels. To me it was a return of the Stones. After no tour in 1984,Dirty Work solo work (which never felt right to me because Mick/Keith without the other) and the idea that the Stones were never to be heard from again...Steel Wheels hit the spot. It WAS a light album in terms of theme...and I thought it fit perfectly for the time.
It was an upbeat album for an upbeat time within in the band. A needed and nice break from the brooding, angry, previous 5 years. To me it is the bands most "pop music album"...and I appreciated it. And then I went to the concerts.
It was an upbeat album for an upbeat time within in the band. A needed and nice break from the brooding, angry, previous 5 years. To me it is the bands most "pop music album"...and I appreciated it. And then I went to the concerts.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
The Wick
()
Date: September 17, 2013 17:39
Thanks great stuff. The production ruined what could have been a great album. With some better lyrics and better production, Continental Drift could have been one of the greatest things they have ever done.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: September 18, 2013 02:16
Mixed Emotions and Terrifying sound like the LP takes just not finished obviously. Awesome to finally hear these. Thanks!
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: September 18, 2013 02:18
Quote
The Wick
Thanks great stuff. The production ruined what could have been a great album. With some better lyrics and better production, Continental Drift could have been one of the greatest things they have ever done.
Probably has been one of the greatest things in the last half of their career.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: September 18, 2013 02:25
that was amazing-
when you listen to blinded by love and terrifying you can hear mick just mumbling and making up words over the band jamming.this is the way the band wrote alot of the old songs we all know and love.
also,mick and keith are doing harmony vocals on the raw tracks.i wont go so far as to say the production ruined the record because i like the finished product but if left more raw steel wheels could've been raised to a whole different level.
when you listen to blinded by love and terrifying you can hear mick just mumbling and making up words over the band jamming.this is the way the band wrote alot of the old songs we all know and love.
also,mick and keith are doing harmony vocals on the raw tracks.i wont go so far as to say the production ruined the record because i like the finished product but if left more raw steel wheels could've been raised to a whole different level.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: September 18, 2013 02:40
Quote
lem motlow
i wont go so far as to say the production ruined the record because i like the finished product but if left more raw steel wheels could've been raised to a whole different level.
It would have been, had they recorded it 5 years later.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: September 18, 2013 02:46
Quote
The Wick
Thanks great stuff. The production ruined what could have been a great album. With some better lyrics and better production, Continental Drift could have been one of the greatest things they have ever done.
It already is IMO
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Lynd8
()
Date: September 18, 2013 04:28
Comparing aside for a minute I really liked Mixed Emotions when it came out...I guess it's your average garden variety Stones song but that's the best kind of song LOL
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
flacnvinyl
()
Date: September 18, 2013 07:05
Steel Wheels was butchered in post-production. We all love hearing the guys together in a room grooving together. Hold On To Your Hat is a great example of what went wrong. I do not have the recording handy (currently redoing my RAID server at home) but there is a great version of HOTYH where you can actually hear the rhythm guitar which SLAYS. Keith's fills are ok, but the rhythm drives it like crazy. The studio version puts snare and vocals up front with guitars in the background... ruins it.
The other hidden thing is that the main problem with the record is the drum sound. Charlie's snare sounds like a nail being driven by a hammer. Give me the sound off Emotional Rescue or Voodoo Lounge for Charlie ANYDAY! Steel Wheels gives us the thinnest and worst drum mix of any album aside from the early 60s material.
Guitars are no longer prominent. The production blends everything together. Sad Sad Sad is a great example... by far my favorite track on the record. The guitars are great but still too low in the mix and often very thin. If you have a decent stereo you can make some adjustments to bring out the hidden/buried guitars in the mix and tune them to the surround speakers. Dolby M (music) does this PERFECTLY. Great little guitar fills across the spectrum and just buried in the mix!!
FX - That is the main thing that destroys the vibe. I have thought many times that I would love for the Stones to do what the Beatles did with Let It Be... 'naked'. Get rid of the Spector stuff on it, and present the tracks as originally recorded. Steel Wheels without the 80s sheen could be a fantastic record. Heck, let Don Was at it but make him use a good mastering engineer who wont destroy the dynamic range.
EQ - It is just too bright and thin. Listen to She's So Cold, then listen to Mixed Emotions. The drum sound is most startling.. a decade later and they managed to RUIN the great sound the Stones had over in Parthe.
The other hidden thing is that the main problem with the record is the drum sound. Charlie's snare sounds like a nail being driven by a hammer. Give me the sound off Emotional Rescue or Voodoo Lounge for Charlie ANYDAY! Steel Wheels gives us the thinnest and worst drum mix of any album aside from the early 60s material.
Guitars are no longer prominent. The production blends everything together. Sad Sad Sad is a great example... by far my favorite track on the record. The guitars are great but still too low in the mix and often very thin. If you have a decent stereo you can make some adjustments to bring out the hidden/buried guitars in the mix and tune them to the surround speakers. Dolby M (music) does this PERFECTLY. Great little guitar fills across the spectrum and just buried in the mix!!
FX - That is the main thing that destroys the vibe. I have thought many times that I would love for the Stones to do what the Beatles did with Let It Be... 'naked'. Get rid of the Spector stuff on it, and present the tracks as originally recorded. Steel Wheels without the 80s sheen could be a fantastic record. Heck, let Don Was at it but make him use a good mastering engineer who wont destroy the dynamic range.
EQ - It is just too bright and thin. Listen to She's So Cold, then listen to Mixed Emotions. The drum sound is most startling.. a decade later and they managed to RUIN the great sound the Stones had over in Parthe.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: September 18, 2013 07:44
When y'all ape about Continental Drift are you talking about the actual song or what the Master Musicians Of Joujouka did?
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 10:43
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
As Wild Slivovitz stated, songs like Break The Spell has that old magic, unpredictability and danger indeed.
Mick's guitar playing on SG was almost symbolic - filling in, at best - compared to him taking on a heavy load of it on SW.
Hmm, I think "Break The Spell" has that same 'let's do something easy and bluesy to warm up the engine' attitude as, say, "Had It With You" has. But I don't sense there too much passion, but more like the guys using their natural talent effortlessly.
But what goes for the idea of Jagger's guitar spoiling the classical danger element in Stones sound, I guess it is easy for you guitar experts reduce anything to that
- Doxa
You can't hear the tension and the creepiness in that track???
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 10:46
Quote
GasLightStreet
When y'all ape about Continental Drift are you talking about the actual song or what the Master Musicians Of Joujouka did?
Both.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
HighwireC
()
Date: September 18, 2013 11:50
... after reading this thread I'll come to the conclusion:
Jamming With Edward must be the last "real" stones album for some "real" stonesfans ....
But somestimes, I must admit, I like the raw projects, too. They shows us the genesis of the masters artwork, at least.
However, it's the artists choice to decide, when his project / work / painting / song will be ready to release.
But some people still will think themselves the better artist, that will let them feel a little more great then ...
And btw.: Some artists know this, they still launch a bulk of raw stuff and put it in some "rare" boots to make their fans happy ...
YCAGWYW,
but ...
HighwireC
Jamming With Edward must be the last "real" stones album for some "real" stonesfans ....
But somestimes, I must admit, I like the raw projects, too. They shows us the genesis of the masters artwork, at least.
However, it's the artists choice to decide, when his project / work / painting / song will be ready to release.
But some people still will think themselves the better artist, that will let them feel a little more great then ...
And btw.: Some artists know this, they still launch a bulk of raw stuff and put it in some "rare" boots to make their fans happy ...
YCAGWYW,
but ...
HighwireC
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 18, 2013 11:56
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreet
When y'all ape about Continental Drift are you talking about the actual song or what the Master Musicians Of Joujouka did?
Both.
I think "Continental Drift" is easily the most interesting and memorable song in the whole album. It captures beautifully so many interesting things together; probably for the last time The Stones are convincingly fitting their past (we all know the old Morocco/Brian Jones history) to a current trend ('world music'), and sound like enrichening their musical vocabulary.
I think the 'hidden' Brian Jones reference in it - Mick and Keith actually looking back - was a part of the new attitude with which The Stones started to look at their career, and also recognized their non-guitar rock/pre-Jumping Jack Flash/BEGGARS BANQUET history. The addition of pre-JJF stuff like "Paint It Black", "Ruby Tuesday", "2000 Light Years From Home" to their repertuare in the following tour belongs to the new approach. In a way they started this alraedy in 1981/82 tour, but this time the past was treated with more respect in its own terms.
Someone mentioned above that STEEL WHEELS is their most "pop album". I agree with that. At the same time it fitted nicely to the mindset of late 80's, it actually is, with its melodical and experimential richness and lightful attitude, a nod to their 60's pop days (66/67). Funnily, in that sense they actually succeeded in that in which they failed with UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK: offering a suitable Stones interpretation of the times. Those two albums sound probably still too much coming out of the 'dark times' associated to them for so long to fit the atmosphere then.
- Doxa
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 12:02
The atmosphere was pretty dark in 1983. I thought Undercover captured that in an experimental way. It was perhaps the last statement the Stones ever did, save the single shots of Highwire, Dangerous Beauty and Sweet Neocon.
There are dark songs on SW as well: Break The Spell (as I've mentioned in earlier posts), Continental Drift and Hearts For Sale (there is some desperation that I love on this one).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 12:04 by DandelionPowderman.
There are dark songs on SW as well: Break The Spell (as I've mentioned in earlier posts), Continental Drift and Hearts For Sale (there is some desperation that I love on this one).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 12:04 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 12:17
Where's that 5.30 instrumental take of Slipping Away ...
Man it's beautiful.... That's the kinda sounds a horse thief just loves...
ROCKMAN
Man it's beautiful.... That's the kinda sounds a horse thief just loves...
ROCKMAN
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 12:18
Quote
Rockman
Where's that 5.30 instrumental take of Slipping Away ...
Man it's beautiful.... That's the kinda sounds a horse thief just loves...
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Wild Slivovitz
()
Date: September 18, 2013 12:29
The production of Hearts For Sale is dreadful, but the song it's pretty good on its own right.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
HighwireC
()
Date: September 18, 2013 12:30
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreet
When y'all ape about Continental Drift are you talking about the actual song or what the Master Musicians Of Joujouka did?
Both.
I think "Continental Drift" is easily the most interesting and memorable song in the whole album. It captures beautifully so many interesting things together; probably for the last time The Stones are convincingly fitting their past (we all know the old Morocco/Brian Jones history) to a current trend ('world music'), and sound like enrichening their musical vocabulary.
I think the 'hidden' Brian Jones reference in it - Mick and Keith actually looking back - was a part of the new attitude with which The Stones started to look at their career, and also recognized their non-guitar rock/pre-Jumping Jack Flash/BEGGARS BANQUET history. The addition of pre-JJF stuff like "Paint It Black", "Ruby Tuesday", "2000 Light Years From Home" to their repertuare in the following tour belongs to the new approach. In a way they started this alraedy in 1981/82 tour, but this time the past was treated with more respect in its own terms.
Someone mentioned above that STEEL WHEELS is their most "pop album". I agree with that. At the same time it fitted nicely to the mindset of late 80's, it actually is, with its melodical and experimential richness and lightful attitude, a nod to their 60's pop days (66/67). Funnily, in that sense they actually succeeded in that in which they failed with UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK: offering a suitable Stones interpretation of the times. Those two albums sound probably still too much coming out of the 'dark times' associated to them for so long to fit the atmosphere then.
- Doxa
To hear Continentel Drift the very first time, for me, was a nice surprise: the tribal tunes took me back to Brian and his JouJouKa experiences.
And for me this song is a tribute to the original roots of The Rolling Stones: african native music.
And, for me, this is the basic reason what makes the most difference between The Rolling Stones and The Beatles.
But all those feelings and thinkings are only by some fans who know the band for years. All the other - and may be the younger - fans want to listen to the "modern" tunes. For those, Continentel Drift will be a little scary, first. And for some people it is, still ...
HighwireC
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 12:50
Quote
Wild Slivovitz
The production of Hearts For Sale is dreadful, but the song it's pretty good on its own right.
It's the same with several songs on the album. The echo, the reverb, the delay, the synths, the sequencers. You name it...
Heart For Sale is beautiful, and Keith's guitar (not the lead rhythm guitar filled to the unrecognisable with echo) and Mick's harp in particular. I love the verses and the bridge. Great stuff
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 18, 2013 13:16
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The atmosphere was pretty dark in 1983. I thought Undercover captured that in an experimental way. It was perhaps the last statement the Stones ever did, save the single shots of Highwire, Dangerous Beauty and Sweet Neocon.
There are dark songs on SW as well: Break The Spell (as I've mentioned in earlier posts), Continental Drift and Hearts For Sale (there is some desperation that I love on this one).
I don't think UNDERCOVER was that fitting to the mindset of 1983, and even though I loved it so much at the time, I don't think it has very much musical or thematical resonance with the world. It was 'just another Stones album', and sounding like what the Stones supposed to sound with some current production make-up. (But yeah, I know for people like you Dandie and Mathijs it was more than that). Even though it got good reviews (like every damn Stones album ever since, "best since EXILE", blahblahblah), its sales weren't that convincing, compared to their previous ones, and it was the first new Stones studio album since the 60's that couldn't top the Billboard, and even though the video of "Undercover of The Night" gathered a lot of attention, the song didn't turn out to be any big hit or hit the 'nerve' of the times. I think UNDERCOVER was an equavalent of IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL from the previous decade: the guys were starting to repeat their old ideas, and not exactly couldn't reflect the world changing around them, no matter how much they tried (and I am not that convinced that even tried so much actually in both cases - they were getting lazy, and the muse was not so easy-going any longer).
What goes for the "darkness" in those STEEL WHEELS. Probably "Drift" has it, in the sense the Stones were dark in their 'pop days' of 1966 and 1967, which was different than in those really threatening and dangerous late 60's and early 70's days (or the decadent, ironical, mean SOME GIRLS era days). I find both "Break The Spell" and "Hearts For Sale" such throwaway songs that calling them 'dark' makes the word have no meaning. But I guess there is something like that in them somewhere, even though I don't get that. I don't own that microscope...
"Sweet Neo-Con" - what makes that 'dark'? Its political message, a good one though, but served with such childishly and corny way, both musically and lyrically? Artificial, a light-weight song by all means.
Altogether, I think the Stones lost that natural 'dark', as 'dangerous' as well, approach and nature of theirs in their doings from STEEL WHEELS on, and they don't sound convincing in trying to express emotions like that ever since. Some lyrical witty tricks or 'mean' guitar is just not enough. It is like if Jagger mentions the word "tits" or "ass" in a song, that won't take the song very sexy...
- Doxa
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 13:40
Yeah, Doxa, Undercover was thematically a good fit with the times for me.
It is a fact that some of the songs were statements about the increased violence and killings in South America.
Great Britain was in the war of the Falklands when the songs were written or recorded, too.
The starters on both sides on the album were great remarks of the times, so were some of the other "violent" songs. The comments, combined with the aggression in the songs Pretty Beat Up, Tie You Up and It Must Be Hell made in different ways a very good statement about the times we were living in, imo.
Your take on this album, being a "let's gather the good ol' boys and make a quick and easy, standard Stones album" is very far from mine
The amount of aggression in this album may have something to do with the almost clinical absence of melodic songs (Wanna Hold You is the exception).
Sweet Neocon: I didn't say it was dark, rather a comment to what was going on at the time - a relevant statement.
Dark: Your definition of the word is probably not the same as mine. With dark I associate danger, creepiness, lack of control, sadness, aggression, mystique or unobtainability.
Some Girls is just as dark as bright daylight to me...
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 13:57 by DandelionPowderman.
It is a fact that some of the songs were statements about the increased violence and killings in South America.
Great Britain was in the war of the Falklands when the songs were written or recorded, too.
The starters on both sides on the album were great remarks of the times, so were some of the other "violent" songs. The comments, combined with the aggression in the songs Pretty Beat Up, Tie You Up and It Must Be Hell made in different ways a very good statement about the times we were living in, imo.
Your take on this album, being a "let's gather the good ol' boys and make a quick and easy, standard Stones album" is very far from mine
The amount of aggression in this album may have something to do with the almost clinical absence of melodic songs (Wanna Hold You is the exception).
Sweet Neocon: I didn't say it was dark, rather a comment to what was going on at the time - a relevant statement.
Dark: Your definition of the word is probably not the same as mine. With dark I associate danger, creepiness, lack of control, sadness, aggression, mystique or unobtainability.
Some Girls is just as dark as bright daylight to me...
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 13:57 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
deeppurple
()
Date: September 18, 2013 13:48
They also left off a wonderful cover of "For your Precious Love". I have a album of outtakes from ME, but it is not this one. Where can I find it?
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: September 18, 2013 14:39
Quote
GasLightStreet
When y'all ape about Continental Drift are you talking about the actual song or what the Master Musicians Of Joujouka did?
the song in general. Its probably the best thing theyve done post-Tattoo You.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 18, 2013 15:10
Yeah, Dandie, it could be that we are using the word "dark" a bit differently... and not the first time we have semantic problems..
But re UNDERCOVER. Yes, I can see the point you made it about it being a comment of the world of the day. I think that is its intent (and I think you are right about its 'statement' of which you describe nicely), but I think the Stones weren't that convincing in putting that on right words and sounds. At least that was the impression I got from its reception. It was not "Street Fighting Man" or "Gimme Shelter" hitting the nerve of the times... For example, the most concerns about the video of "Undercover of The Night" was not about its political message, but of its violent nature (thereby the censorship, etc.). It was rather 'surface' kind of thing, which, of course, still was natural, if not a bit artificial and cheap, thing to go with the good ol' controversial reputation of the band.
Altogether, I think the new video aspect was the thing Jagger mostly was experimenting in this album, and the tracks he made for it has this new visual medium in his mind, the songs written as a soundtrack for them. The rest is basically gathered of the standard Pathe Marconi jams (some very groovie ones, though), with a bit more aggressive lyrics than before (the tendency which continued in DIRTY WORK as well). But taking how weakly some of its songs produced and finished, I understand why their current record company was not too satisfied about their effort in it. It was a contract filler album for them, and actually having a new deal negotiated while still doing it, their motivation and work ethics - especially Jagger's - were not probably on their highest.
No, I don't think it is the "let's gather the good ol' boys and make a quick and easy, standard Stones album" - that would suit more to albums from STEEL WHEELS on - oh no, they still were a living and breathing forward going band, trying still reinvent their sound, but I think they simply were running out of a gas. It was the 'world' making this observation of 'just another Stones album' with no much relevance any longer.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 15:11 by Doxa.
But re UNDERCOVER. Yes, I can see the point you made it about it being a comment of the world of the day. I think that is its intent (and I think you are right about its 'statement' of which you describe nicely), but I think the Stones weren't that convincing in putting that on right words and sounds. At least that was the impression I got from its reception. It was not "Street Fighting Man" or "Gimme Shelter" hitting the nerve of the times... For example, the most concerns about the video of "Undercover of The Night" was not about its political message, but of its violent nature (thereby the censorship, etc.). It was rather 'surface' kind of thing, which, of course, still was natural, if not a bit artificial and cheap, thing to go with the good ol' controversial reputation of the band.
Altogether, I think the new video aspect was the thing Jagger mostly was experimenting in this album, and the tracks he made for it has this new visual medium in his mind, the songs written as a soundtrack for them. The rest is basically gathered of the standard Pathe Marconi jams (some very groovie ones, though), with a bit more aggressive lyrics than before (the tendency which continued in DIRTY WORK as well). But taking how weakly some of its songs produced and finished, I understand why their current record company was not too satisfied about their effort in it. It was a contract filler album for them, and actually having a new deal negotiated while still doing it, their motivation and work ethics - especially Jagger's - were not probably on their highest.
No, I don't think it is the "let's gather the good ol' boys and make a quick and easy, standard Stones album" - that would suit more to albums from STEEL WHEELS on - oh no, they still were a living and breathing forward going band, trying still reinvent their sound, but I think they simply were running out of a gas. It was the 'world' making this observation of 'just another Stones album' with no much relevance any longer.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 15:11 by Doxa.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 15:20
All the three videos from Undercover were banned, and had to be edited before being televised. That gave Mick a lot of space to talk about the thought behind two of those songs (Undercover and Too Much Blood).
I won't over-estimate Mick, but I'm sure he saw that coming, and it could very well have been part of the strategy behind the launch of this album - using the political aspect of it.
I disagree strongly about Undercover being "standard Pathe Marconi-jams". Firstly, the songs sound very different. It's an odd collection of songs, really. Undercover, Wanna Hold You, Feel On Baby and Too Much Blood are not typical Stones songs.
Secondly, I find it baffling that you find the songs being weakly produced and finalised. To me, the production is very good, but also very different from what we're used to from the Stones. Do some of the songs sound dated? Yes, of course. But at the time, they were fresh - something all the reviews I read at the time confirmed.
This album is probably one of the albums by the Stones I've listened to the most. I know every little detail on it like the back of my hand. Some of my favourite songs are on it, and I'm sure I'll defend its quality, how it was written, recorded, mixed and finalised till my dying day
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 15:23 by DandelionPowderman.
I won't over-estimate Mick, but I'm sure he saw that coming, and it could very well have been part of the strategy behind the launch of this album - using the political aspect of it.
I disagree strongly about Undercover being "standard Pathe Marconi-jams". Firstly, the songs sound very different. It's an odd collection of songs, really. Undercover, Wanna Hold You, Feel On Baby and Too Much Blood are not typical Stones songs.
Secondly, I find it baffling that you find the songs being weakly produced and finalised. To me, the production is very good, but also very different from what we're used to from the Stones. Do some of the songs sound dated? Yes, of course. But at the time, they were fresh - something all the reviews I read at the time confirmed.
This album is probably one of the albums by the Stones I've listened to the most. I know every little detail on it like the back of my hand. Some of my favourite songs are on it, and I'm sure I'll defend its quality, how it was written, recorded, mixed and finalised till my dying day
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 15:23 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: alternate takes 1989 - blinded by love / mixed emotions - terrifying
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 18, 2013 15:21
Quote
GazzaQuote
GasLightStreet
When y'all ape about Continental Drift are you talking about the actual song or what the Master Musicians Of Joujouka did?
the song in general. Its probably the best thing theyve done post-Tattoo You.
I would say Continental Drift AND How Can I Stop are the best they've done since Some Girls
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