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Wouldn't the analog tape recording (VHS) be warmer in sound, hence transfer nicely to vinyl, Drake? Why are we losing so much along the way, making CD as a medium jyst as good as vinyl?
stop it
Jeroen
While it will be released officially at some point a bootleg copy of the dvd will be available around the holidays, if not sooner...
What, a proper recording? If that's so, that's great news.
[www.iorr.org]
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
Yes, that's still an interesting question in some respects.
The first thing we always have to accept is that no transfer can improve the quality of the source signal. [Yes you can tweak the eq, remove noise etc but you can never retrieve information that wasn't captured on your source recording.]
Any subsequent transfer, be it analogue or digital, can only lose even more information.
So if we start with a VHS as our less than ideal source, where does that leave us ?
In my opinion, it still might be an analogue tranfer to vinyl that best preserves the musical information. That's essentially because I believe analogue distortions to be musically less destructive than the digital losses incurred by CD standard AD & DA conversion.
One reason these issues are hard to discuss is that folks tend to judge the reproduction of recorded music in HiFi terms rather than musical ones.
If we listen to a live musical performance, we don't sit there thinking about bass & treble, dynamic range.., or the noise of people unwrapping toffees in the next seat. We simply respond to the music and allow it to do what it does to our minds and feelings.
When I used to sell HiFi equipment I used to ask customers to forget about HiFi and try to choose the equipment that simply allowed the music to work better; to trust their instincts and buy the one that made them smile
The customers who did this [rather than buy the amplfifer that What Hi Fi recommended this month !] were the ones who ended up happiest with their systems and the ones who went on to buy more and more music from genres they'd never previously considered. They had systems that played music in a way that communicated.
If you could find a person on a desert island who'd never heard music before in his life, I don't think you'd get him to see the point of it by playing CDs to him.
If on the other hand, you played him a live instrument or an LP record from an analogue source, you'd have him singing along in no time
So there you go .Now everybody will think I'm even madder
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-14 15:41 by Spud.
Why record it digitally and then tranfer it to VHS?
I thought it was recorded directly to tape.
Blue festival? Is that a prono festival flac?
You're right in respect of the guitar sound, but also it is right that unfortunately plink plonk Chuck is much tooooooooooooooooo loud in the mix. Gravediggers should be in the background after their work is done ...
True
But mainly when Chuck played B3 or Fender Rhodes/wurlitzer.
The "piano" has a sad tendency to untie it all again, imo.
Not at the O2 last year -the piano was loud as hell, and ugly sounding.
Mathijs
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
runrudolph
()
Date: October 12, 2013 15:23
Monkeyman..........Unbelievable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great
jeroen
Great
jeroen
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 12, 2013 16:45
Quote
flacnvinyl
Spud,
You are SPOT ON about the magic that does NOT exist with CD as a format. I can't agree more. There is a legitimate reason that many of us (myself included) collect vinyl. Have a very specific memory of when I realized that CDs were inferior...
I was 11 years old (early 90s) and my father had purchased several Stones CDs for me. Our hobby was basically purchasing one every month or so. We had the records, but through years of wear (decades since they were his original pressings) we decided to get the 'latest and greatest'. I remember how crisp, clean and detailed She's So Cold sounded on vinyl... then I remember hearing the CD...
You said something very apt... I remember those 'notes' as if it was the very first time... Same with Can't You Hear Me Knocking... When those notes hit it shakes you to the core. On CD, I felt like something was 'missing'.
I agree with you COMPLETELY about the power and presence of analog. Many of my friends have been blown away after hearing someone like Radiohead or Wilco through my home sound system, or the studio setup (HS80Ms, paired NS10 sub, Audiotechnica turntable).. Their comments are normally something along the lines of "I never heard that before".
Brixton, however, is sourced from VHS. If we did an A/B test, I am willing to bet that no one would be able to tell the difference between a CD and vinyl version, aside from the crackling.
Now, to help illustrate everything...
The image above explains why we hear something unique in vinyl that we don't get in other mediums. It CANT translate fully since CD is so limited in resolution and depth.
As to VHS... Originally it was 100Hz to 10kHz, and then the hi-fi VHS decks had full 20Hz to 20kHz. The Brixton source really is great, but vinyl is simply not necessary aside from collectors who really want it on record. If I were at the show, I could see the purchase.. However, CD is more than enough resolution and depth to capture the recording perfectly.
VHS to CD or VHS to vinyl. Either way, you are hearing a VHS source.
CD is 'better' than VHS.
Vinyl is 'better' than VHS.
The format you choose for Brixton really doesn't matter. You are hearing either a clean VHS source (CD) or the VHS + crackling (vinyl).
Wouldn't the analog tape recording (VHS) be warmer in sound, hence transfer nicely to vinyl, Drake? Why are we losing so much along the way, making CD as a medium jyst as good as vinyl?
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
glimmerman
()
Date: October 12, 2013 20:15
Wow and Thanks. How good they sound!
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
flacnvinyl
()
Date: October 12, 2013 23:14
This really is a gem of a recording. I will be listening to it again on my commute to film a blue festival tonight.
It is possible that the VHS might have a warmer sound but I would argue that no one would ever be able to tell the difference. The dynamic range and sound spectrum of 44.1kHz 16bit stereo wav is superior to the current source. There are some super hifi vhs decks, I own one, but the source for this recording did not use that type of medium.
I am willing to bet that the source is simply a copy of a preview video of the performance. It is very likely that a full length film exists. All of this about sources in theoretical since I do not know the folks putting this out. I have done a ton of reel to reel, vhs, beta and vinyl archival and I am basing my option on my knowledge of the format and it's limitations.
It is possible that the VHS might have a warmer sound but I would argue that no one would ever be able to tell the difference. The dynamic range and sound spectrum of 44.1kHz 16bit stereo wav is superior to the current source. There are some super hifi vhs decks, I own one, but the source for this recording did not use that type of medium.
I am willing to bet that the source is simply a copy of a preview video of the performance. It is very likely that a full length film exists. All of this about sources in theoretical since I do not know the folks putting this out. I have done a ton of reel to reel, vhs, beta and vinyl archival and I am basing my option on my knowledge of the format and it's limitations.
Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
runrudolph
()
Date: October 12, 2013 15:24
Just listening to it,
f.....great. Im getting a hard on. Great Great great
Jeroen
f.....great. Im getting a hard on. Great Great great
Jeroen
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
Chris Fountain
()
Date: October 12, 2013 15:29
VooDoo Lounge Tour is high on my list!
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
runrudolph
()
Date: October 12, 2013 15:33
yeah,it sure was a great Tour.
jeroen
jeroen
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: October 12, 2013 15:51
Quote
corriecas
yeah,it sure was a great Tour.
jeroen
stop it
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
runrudolph
()
Date: October 12, 2013 16:02
...................???????????????????????????????????????????????Quote
MunichhiltonQuote
corriecas
yeah,it sure was a great Tour.
jeroen
stop it
Jeroen
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: October 12, 2013 16:08
Yep - just got mine today too. Great gig. Someone told me there were plans to officially release it with a DVD. Is that true?
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
Godxofxrock9
()
Date: October 12, 2013 16:29
I think that just a rumorQuote
Silver Dagger
Yep - just got mine today too. Great gig. Someone told me there were plans to officially release it with a DVD. Is that true?
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
slew
()
Date: October 12, 2013 17:34
How do I get Brixton???
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
scottkeef
()
Date: October 12, 2013 17:42
Just go to the "Buy and sell" and download it. Yeah, this"Monkey Man" IS great. These club show mixes are heads above the stadium mixes too! The guitars actually get some volume and its not so much the typical "Chuck and His Rolling Stones" sound...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-12 17:42 by scottkeef.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-12 17:42 by scottkeef.
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
Mr.D
()
Date: October 12, 2013 17:51
Quote
Godxofxrock9I think that just a rumorQuote
Silver Dagger
Yep - just got mine today too. Great gig. Someone told me there were plans to officially release it with a DVD. Is that true?
While it will be released officially at some point a bootleg copy of the dvd will be available around the holidays, if not sooner...
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: October 12, 2013 19:06
Quote
Mr.DQuote
Godxofxrock9I think that just a rumorQuote
Silver Dagger
Yep - just got mine today too. Great gig. Someone told me there were plans to officially release it with a DVD. Is that true?
While it will be released officially at some point a bootleg copy of the dvd will be available around the holidays, if not sooner...
What, a proper recording? If that's so, that's great news.
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
jazzbass
()
Date: October 12, 2013 19:27
Anyone have a link to the download?
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
Deltics
()
Date: October 12, 2013 19:29
Quote
jazzbass
Anyone have a link to the download?
[www.iorr.org]
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: October 13, 2013 01:44
Mathijs. You sir are a true gentleman for posting that. Thanks so much. A very nice addition to the collection. Great sound and they are on fire. Meet Me in the Bottom is fantastic!
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: October 14, 2013 14:59
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
flacnvinyl
Spud,
You are SPOT ON about the magic that does NOT exist with CD as a format. I can't agree more. There is a legitimate reason that many of us (myself included) collect vinyl. Have a very specific memory of when I realized that CDs were inferior...
I was 11 years old (early 90s) and my father had purchased several Stones CDs for me. Our hobby was basically purchasing one every month or so. We had the records, but through years of wear (decades since they were his original pressings) we decided to get the 'latest and greatest'. I remember how crisp, clean and detailed She's So Cold sounded on vinyl... then I remember hearing the CD...
You said something very apt... I remember those 'notes' as if it was the very first time... Same with Can't You Hear Me Knocking... When those notes hit it shakes you to the core. On CD, I felt like something was 'missing'.
I agree with you COMPLETELY about the power and presence of analog. Many of my friends have been blown away after hearing someone like Radiohead or Wilco through my home sound system, or the studio setup (HS80Ms, paired NS10 sub, Audiotechnica turntable).. Their comments are normally something along the lines of "I never heard that before".
Brixton, however, is sourced from VHS. If we did an A/B test, I am willing to bet that no one would be able to tell the difference between a CD and vinyl version, aside from the crackling.
Now, to help illustrate everything...
The image above explains why we hear something unique in vinyl that we don't get in other mediums. It CANT translate fully since CD is so limited in resolution and depth.
As to VHS... Originally it was 100Hz to 10kHz, and then the hi-fi VHS decks had full 20Hz to 20kHz. The Brixton source really is great, but vinyl is simply not necessary aside from collectors who really want it on record. If I were at the show, I could see the purchase.. However, CD is more than enough resolution and depth to capture the recording perfectly.
VHS to CD or VHS to vinyl. Either way, you are hearing a VHS source.
CD is 'better' than VHS.
Vinyl is 'better' than VHS.
The format you choose for Brixton really doesn't matter. You are hearing either a clean VHS source (CD) or the VHS + crackling (vinyl).
Wouldn't the analog tape recording (VHS) be warmer in sound, hence transfer nicely to vinyl, Drake? Why are we losing so much along the way, making CD as a medium jyst as good as vinyl?
Yes, that's still an interesting question in some respects.
The first thing we always have to accept is that no transfer can improve the quality of the source signal. [Yes you can tweak the eq, remove noise etc but you can never retrieve information that wasn't captured on your source recording.]
Any subsequent transfer, be it analogue or digital, can only lose even more information.
So if we start with a VHS as our less than ideal source, where does that leave us ?
In my opinion, it still might be an analogue tranfer to vinyl that best preserves the musical information. That's essentially because I believe analogue distortions to be musically less destructive than the digital losses incurred by CD standard AD & DA conversion.
One reason these issues are hard to discuss is that folks tend to judge the reproduction of recorded music in HiFi terms rather than musical ones.
If we listen to a live musical performance, we don't sit there thinking about bass & treble, dynamic range.., or the noise of people unwrapping toffees in the next seat. We simply respond to the music and allow it to do what it does to our minds and feelings.
When I used to sell HiFi equipment I used to ask customers to forget about HiFi and try to choose the equipment that simply allowed the music to work better; to trust their instincts and buy the one that made them smile
The customers who did this [rather than buy the amplfifer that What Hi Fi recommended this month !] were the ones who ended up happiest with their systems and the ones who went on to buy more and more music from genres they'd never previously considered. They had systems that played music in a way that communicated.
If you could find a person on a desert island who'd never heard music before in his life, I don't think you'd get him to see the point of it by playing CDs to him.
If on the other hand, you played him a live instrument or an LP record from an analogue source, you'd have him singing along in no time
So there you go .Now everybody will think I'm even madder
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-14 15:41 by Spud.
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
TheBlockbuster
()
Date: October 14, 2013 15:48
But the concert was recorded digitally. Then they transferred the digital source to VHS. If the Concert had been recorded on analog equipment then maybe it had made sense that the VHS would sound more natural but as the source is digital there is no difference.
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 14, 2013 15:53
Quote
TheBlockbuster
But the concert was recorded digitally. Then they transferred the digital source to VHS. If the Concert had been recorded on analog equipment then maybe it had made sense that the VHS would sound more natural but as the source is digital there is no difference.
Why record it digitally and then tranfer it to VHS?
I thought it was recorded directly to tape.
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: October 14, 2013 16:00
If the source was 16 bit digital, then you're probably right.
You'd likely end up with a vinyl that just sounded "warmer" , not better.
[Talking about tonal "warmth" with regard to analogue and digital audio is a bit of red herring which is used in arguments by advocates on both sides but it's really just a cosmetic issue. The important thing is the preservation of musical pitch & timing information. Get that right and rest tends to look after itself ]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-14 17:42 by Spud.
You'd likely end up with a vinyl that just sounded "warmer" , not better.
[Talking about tonal "warmth" with regard to analogue and digital audio is a bit of red herring which is used in arguments by advocates on both sides but it's really just a cosmetic issue. The important thing is the preservation of musical pitch & timing information. Get that right and rest tends to look after itself ]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-14 17:42 by Spud.
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: October 14, 2013 16:02
Quote
flacnvinyl
This really is a gem of a recording. I will be listening to it again on my commute to film a blue festival tonight.
Blue festival? Is that a prono festival flac?
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
toomuchforme
()
Date: October 14, 2013 18:56
listening !! I love it
"we know it's a bit late but we hope you don't mind if we stay"
"we know it's a bit late but we hope you don't mind if we stay"
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 18, 2013 13:05
Review from Collectors Music Reviews (Thanks, Hans, for passing it on!):
[www.collectorsmusicreviews.com]
[www.collectorsmusicreviews.com]
Re: Monkeyman-Brixton 1995........Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Posted by:
RobertJohnson
()
Date: October 18, 2013 13:41
Quote
scottkeef
Just go to the "Buy and sell" and download it. Yeah, this"Monkey Man" IS great. These club show mixes are heads above the stadium mixes too! The guitars actually get some volume and its not so much the typical "Chuck and His Rolling Stones" sound...
You're right in respect of the guitar sound, but also it is right that unfortunately plink plonk Chuck is much tooooooooooooooooo loud in the mix. Gravediggers should be in the background after their work is done ...
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 18, 2013 14:22
Regarding Chuck, it is obvious that they have told him to turn it down for the 50 & Counting tour. Especially evident in Midnight Rambler, and other numbers where the need for honky tonkin' is minimal if not non-existant.
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: October 18, 2013 14:37
To be fair, for some previous tours with Keith & Ronnie in "Chuckle Brothers" mode, the plinkaty-plonk did fill a few holes
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 18, 2013 14:47
Quote
Spud
To be fair, for some previous tours with Keith & Ronnie in "Chuckle Brothers" mode, the plinkaty-plonk did fill a few holes
True
But mainly when Chuck played B3 or Fender Rhodes/wurlitzer.
The "piano" has a sad tendency to untie it all again, imo.
Re: Brixton Academy Soundboard
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: October 18, 2013 16:11
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Regarding Chuck, it is obvious that they have told him to turn it down for the 50 & Counting tour. Especially evident in Midnight Rambler, and other numbers where the need for honky tonkin' is minimal if not non-existant.
Not at the O2 last year -the piano was loud as hell, and ugly sounding.
Mathijs
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