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edog
Here in the states the inner sleeve had a blow up of John's logo screened back with text overlaid and the pen sketch was done by Craig in his office and in fronnt of me and two others using my lips and added a tongue to them. There was no time limit of an hour set at all! Again, taking my words and adding your own until others believe it to be true. That's real B.S,and the major issues I have with all here who think they know best, but in reality I was alone in that 3rd floor carrage house art department... neither you or anyone else in this conversation was there with me. I went up to Craigs art department where "I alone" in about 15 to 20 minutes created my version of the tongue logo that then was presented to marshal chess at Andy's factory in Manhatten. The whole thing was created, presented and bought in a few hours, all in the same day! - Ernie

How many other things did Braun create again, after the whole Stones thing? Zero, I think it was. And you have what? Some 240 albums, multiple grammy nominations, oh, shows in The Smithsonian, and a cavalcade of rock stars and producers who can all attest to everything you've done, including adpating "Dolls Alive" to the logo.

It's so funny how people all either "lend you creedence" or "discount you" that weren't probably born when this took place, without having seen the mountains of work that support what you say.

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roller99

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edog
Here in the states the inner sleeve had a blow up of John's logo screened back with text overlaid and the pen sketch was done by Craig in his office and in fronnt of me and two others using my lips and added a tongue to them. There was no time limit of an hour set at all! Again, taking my words and adding your own until others believe it to be true. That's real B.S,and the major issues I have with all here who think they know best, but in reality I was alone in that 3rd floor carrage house art department... neither you or anyone else in this conversation was there with me. I went up to Craigs art department where "I alone" in about 15 to 20 minutes created my version of the tongue logo that then was presented to marshal chess at Andy's factory in Manhatten. The whole thing was created, presented and bought in a few hours, all in the same day! - Ernie

How many other things did Braun create again, after the whole Stones thing? Zero, I think it was. And you have what? Some 240 albums, multiple grammy nominations, oh, shows in The Smithsonian, and a cavalcade of rock stars and producers who can all attest to everything you've done, including adpating "Dolls Alive" to the logo.

It's so funny how people all either "lend you creedence" or "discount you" that weren't probably born when this took place, without having seen the mountains of work that support what you say.

Hi roller99,
I suggest you have a look at the thread "Rolling Stones Tongues" that Irix reference to. I thought that "my" thread was dead so I added info to the other thread.
I don't think the feud between Craig and Ernie is of any importance and the fact that Craig persued another career doesn't make Ernie a hero.
I mentioned the two names of the men who were involved in the making of what became the famous "USA" logo. Ernie mentioned the name Walter, when he talked about what Craig said to him in the presence of two other people (that was indeed what happened). I have written info of them of that period and when Walter had left (before Ernie arrived) the lineup of the USA version was already finished (1970). As Ernie, in the end told, that Craig came to him with two other people, Craig made a drawing of a tongue in a mouth like version of Ernie and asked him to finish it. That doesn't make Ernie the creator of a logo. He did a job, just like the two men who designed, on instigation of Craig, the famous version.
It's a shame that Alan Aldridge has passed away, because it's really interesting to know to what extend his 1968 (!!!) ice licking "Day Tripper" image had an impact on anyone. Craig admitted that he knew that image and that it inspired him to add the second white line on the tongue part (as you know Pasche's original logo had one line). Personally I don't think Pasche consciously knew Aldridge's image. For him the Kali tongue was the startup. You wouldn't call Mick Jagger a lier, would you?

Stay corona free!

My understanding is that the "merchandise version" of the tongue was created because much of the merchandise range was enamel and you need both enough space for the enamel to flow but also a wall to ensure the separation of the enamel colours.

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mattleeuk
My understanding is that the "merchandise version" of the tongue was created because much of the merchandise range was enamel and you need both enough space for the enamel to flow but also a wall to ensure the separation of the enamel colours.

Which version of the tongue&lips logo do you mean, Matt? Graig Braun had a deal with Musidor BV for a period of three years during which he could make merchandise, but that was not the "famous USA version" (read: Braun, Velez, DiMicelli). It was the version without the eyes, to start with, that was made in enamel way back around 1972. And he also made those glitter like T-shirts that can clearly be seen (with separate teeth) on photos of Mick Jagger, Charlie Watts and Mick Taylor f.i.
You may know better, but I think metal and enamel versions of the USA version came much later. Production technology was much improved in those later years.

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

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georgie48

Which version of the tongue&lips logo do you mean, Matt?

He certainly means Ernie Cefalu's version, used for Craig Braun's 'Rockreations' LICKS Memorabilia (Merchandise, licensed by Musidor N.V.):


[iorr.org] , [iorr.org]

I'm a serious collector, I doubt everything, I need evidence... I consider the evidence and I make a judgement and I am very happy to change my view with the emergence of new evidence. I am always learning.

I don't want to string out this argument. I agree there is a big difference between design and artwork (I have owned three marketing / creative / media agencies). The tongue used to create the merchandise including the enamel items is indeed substantially different to the versions used earlier on the album inners etc... It appears to be an established fact that Ernie worked at Craig Bruan's company when the merchandise was likely to have been commissioned.

So where do I currently stand on this debate? In my humble opinion Ernie may have been involved in the artwork for the merchandise but he did not "design" the tongue logo. Did he do or was he involved in the tongue artwork for the merchandise, very probably. Given the significant difference and the technical need to separate the enamel colours but have enough space for each colour to flow I think it's potentially possible for the artworker to claim, they "adapted the design" perhaps even "designed the version to be used for merchandise".

The lack of clarity in the various claims that it was the "merchandise" version actually only adds doubt in my mind. I hasten to add this is just my view based on the evidence I have reviewed.

Do I have the biggest collection in the world, maybe not, probably not! That would be a big claim! What I do have is the Guinness World Record for the Biggest Collection in the World. There is a big difference. I do have over 100,000 items and I only had the officials count enough to be awarded the record. My point is it's important to be specific about ones claims.

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mattleeuk

In my humble opinion Ernie may have been involved in the artwork for the merchandise but he did not "design" the tongue logo.

Maybe it was just a welcome side-effect that his version of the T&L-logo was chosen for the Licks-Merchandise since it was less sophisticated and therefore easier to manufacture with the enamel colors.

Quote by Ernie Cefalu: "The logo that I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971." - [rockpopgallery.typepad.com] .

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Irix

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mattleeuk

In my humble opinion Ernie may have been involved in the artwork for the merchandise but he did not "design" the tongue logo.

Maybe it was just a welcome side-effect that his version of the T&L-logo was chosen for the Licks-Merchandise since it was less sophisticated and therefore easier to manufacture with the enamel colors.

Quote by Ernie Cefalu: "The logo that I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971." - [rockpopgallery.typepad.com] .

Yeah, it gets boring really. It's just how one wants to impress with words ...
well before the end of February of 1971 means not much when you know that Ernie only joined Braun's company some time late January, so ... wow.
And "the logo that I did the finish on" says it all. He did NOT create any logo, only (nicely though) finished off what was given to him. YAWN ...

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town