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georgie48

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roller99

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Irix

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Hairball

It's possible that Pasche copied Cefalau's version (who might have copied the Beatles song book version), and then Braun and his in house illustrators completed the design as we know it.

John Pasche was in London while Craig Braun and Ernie Cefalu were in New York. The still unfinished tongue design (a rough one-inch version) was faxed over from London to New York and was then redrawn. -- [www.NYTimes.com]

Great source Irix. Huge applause!!! Yay. Except the interview is an interview of Craig Braun, the very person who tried to steal credit for "School's Out - Alice Cooper" from Cefalu. Doubt that? I can post the actual letter from Shep Gordon stating that Craig tried to take credit for Ernie's work, same as he did with "Licks". So if you are going to quote the NY Times article, you are in fact supporting what I say. The Times article is full of inaccuracies.

And, I'm not Ernie Cefalu, nor his alter ego. He's a friend of mine. But hey, you believe what you want to believe. You saw it on the internet, so it must be true, right?

There is nothing wrong in defending a friend, but, as they say : "a proven lie remains a lie", friend's support or not. Go find the video recorded interview of Mick Jagger, watch it and ask yourself "Is HE a lier?" You mentioned the name "Mick" (and nothing else added) in one of you earlier mails. If this "Mick" is the one you suggest he is, and if he would support your story, than he would have to call himself a lier. Where was Ernie in early 1970, when the Stones management invited John Pasche for a meeting with Mick Jagger? Again, there is nothing wrong in defending a friend, but losing oneself in subjectivity and loss of sence of reality ... too sad. Having said that however, everyone is free to dream his/her dream. Be happy with it, but don't think Stones fans are stupid because they are on the Internet. They dig the best Rock 'n' Roll band around, started by Brian Jones and not by somebody named "Ernie".

I didn't claim anyone other than Brian started the band, nor did I say anyone was stupid, but hey, if the shoe fits.....

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roller99

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georgie48

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roller99

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Irix

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Hairball

It's possible that Pasche copied Cefalau's version (who might have copied the Beatles song book version), and then Braun and his in house illustrators completed the design as we know it.

John Pasche was in London while Craig Braun and Ernie Cefalu were in New York. The still unfinished tongue design (a rough one-inch version) was faxed over from London to New York and was then redrawn. -- [www.NYTimes.com]

Great source Irix. Huge applause!!! Yay. Except the interview is an interview of Craig Braun, the very person who tried to steal credit for "School's Out - Alice Cooper" from Cefalu. Doubt that? I can post the actual letter from Shep Gordon stating that Craig tried to take credit for Ernie's work, same as he did with "Licks". So if you are going to quote the NY Times article, you are in fact supporting what I say. The Times article is full of inaccuracies.

And, I'm not Ernie Cefalu, nor his alter ego. He's a friend of mine. But hey, you believe what you want to believe. You saw it on the internet, so it must be true, right?

There is nothing wrong in defending a friend, but, as they say : "a proven lie remains a lie", friend's support or not. Go find the video recorded interview of Mick Jagger, watch it and ask yourself "Is HE a lier?" You mentioned the name "Mick" (and nothing else added) in one of you earlier mails. If this "Mick" is the one you suggest he is, and if he would support your story, than he would have to call himself a lier. Where was Ernie in early 1970, when the Stones management invited John Pasche for a meeting with Mick Jagger? Again, there is nothing wrong in defending a friend, but losing oneself in subjectivity and loss of sence of reality ... too sad. Having said that however, everyone is free to dream his/her dream. Be happy with it, but don't think Stones fans are stupid because they are on the Internet. They dig the best Rock 'n' Roll band around, started by Brian Jones and not by somebody named "Ernie".

I didn't claim anyone other than Brian started the band, nor did I say anyone was stupid, but hey, if the shoe fits.....

No, you didn't say anyone was stupid, but "You saw it on the Internet, so it must be true, right?" as a response on Irix' mail ??? I'm pretty sure Irix tries to be as objective as possible and is looking/asking for facts on "Who designed the Stones Tongue and Lips logo". He will try to find and watch the Mick Jagger interview about the logo. Do you? He may question your remarks on Craig Braun, who is only somebody, who happened to get the assignment for the Sticky Fingers LP cover and was asked by Chess to add the John Pasche made logo as faxed to Chess Records on the sleeve when your friend Ernie was in no way working for Brauns company yet. You personally disliking (you even used stronger words) Braun doesn't really help you in all of this. You are a good friend of Ernie, maybe in the same way as I am a good friend of someone very, very close to me, even when there have been moments I disliked that person

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georgie48
I am pretty sure that Pasche's logo with thick tongue was earlier than Cefalu's' but it could very well be that Pasche modified his original design after having seen Cefalu's design.
I also remember buying a Cefalu design logo pin many decades ago, thinking it was a counterfeit, but his interview made me think different.

Hmmm.

I'll offer an olive branch here, because we're all here for the same reason; love of The Rolling Stones. I'm just trying to decode a mystery, and I think we should all be able to discuss this without resorting to accusations or heated arguments. So, if I offended, I apologize.

You all have it wrong... they got it from me

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roller99

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georgie48
I am pretty sure that Pasche's logo with thick tongue was earlier than Cefalu's' but it could very well be that Pasche modified his original design after having seen Cefalu's design.
I also remember buying a Cefalu design logo pin many decades ago, thinking it was a counterfeit, but his interview made me think different.

Hmmm.

I like your olive branch offer and .... thanks for reminding me of my early days remarks . Indeed, when I started this link I was also in the process of collecting as many facts as possible, and trust me, I went into the very deep. I was allowed (!!!) to see into original, properly stored, documents dating back to as far back as 1969 and I listened to Ernie's video interview many times (and sadly followed a really disgusting dispute on an Australian based site, which was wisely deleted at some point). Then there is the video interview with Pasche, and most importantly the video interview with Mick Jagger in combination with documents signed by him. Also, don't forget Keith Richards famous 1971 interview in Rolling Stone. I also communicated with Pasche as well as Marshall Chess and some whose names I am not allowed to mention. Speculation is dangerous and can be misleading. The only thing that counts are proven (!) facts.
Long live The Rolling Stones!

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georgie48

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roller99

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georgie48
I am pretty sure that Pasche's logo with thick tongue was earlier than Cefalu's' but it could very well be that Pasche modified his original design after having seen Cefalu's design.
I also remember buying a Cefalu design logo pin many decades ago, thinking it was a counterfeit, but his interview made me think different.

Hmmm.

I like your olive branch offer and .... thanks for reminding me of my early days remarks . Indeed, when I started this link I was also in the process of collecting as many facts as possible, and trust me, I went into the very deep. I was allowed (!!!) to see into original, properly stored, documents dating back to as far back as 1969 and I listened to Ernie's video interview many times (and sadly followed a really disgusting dispute on an Australian based site, which was wisely deleted at some point). Then there is the video interview with Pasche, and most importantly the video interview with Mick Jagger in combination with documents signed by him. Also, don't forget Keith Richards famous 1971 interview in Rolling Stone. I also communicated with Pasche as well as Marshall Chess and some whose names I am not allowed to mention. Speculation is dangerous and can be misleading. The only thing that counts are proven (!) facts.
Long live The Rolling Stones!

Georgie, please contact me.

Hello and thank you Bjornuif

for allowing me an opporttunity to discuss and tell the side of the design that I had created for The Stones Tongue Logo on your site. I assume most of you know who I am and what I have done in the world of album covers but for thos that don't please take some tme to simply Google me. I have created 233 to date and am currently working on 3 more for relesae this year. I welcome any and all questions that you might have regarding any or all of my covers. I am always slammed with work and travel but will make a concerned effort to respond to your inquires in a timely manner.

Thank you - Ernie Cefalu Point Of connection Expert

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edog
Hello and thank you Bjornuif

for allowing me an opporttunity to discuss and tell the side of the design that I had created for The Stones Tongue Logo on your site. I assume most of you know who I am and what I have done in the world of album covers but for thos that don't please take some tme to simply Google me. I have created 233 to date and am currently working on 3 more for relesae this year. I welcome any and all questions that you might have regarding any or all of my covers. I am always slammed with work and travel but will make a concerned effort to respond to your inquires in a timely manner.

Thank you - Ernie Cefalu Point Of connection Expert

Ok then, let's hear it from the horse's mouth: who did what?

C

What do you mean by "all of my covers"?

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DandelionPowderman
What do you mean by "all of my covers"?

[albumcoverhalloffame.wordpress.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Cefalu designed many covers, but never for the Rolling Stones.
Pasche made the logo we all love and kept on designig posters, inserts and covers for the group until 1981. This thread is becoming very useless, in my opinion.
Sooner or later someone will claim he is the gosht composer behind J/R...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-31 21:19 by 1963luca0.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 22:12 by blivet.

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Deltics

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DandelionPowderman
What do you mean by "all of my covers"?

[albumcoverhalloffame.wordpress.com]

Hi Deltics,
Thanks for that link! If I read that story correctly he even claims to have been involved with the Sticky Fingers album??? Or is that suggestieve writing? I can already see Andy Warhol turn around in his grave. Looking forward to read the exact date om which he joined Braun's company

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georgie48

Looking forward to read the exact date on which he joined Braun's company

From the UnCovered Interview 2009: "I remember it was a really cold rainy Friday at the beginning of February 1971, and Jack [Greer, Headhunter] had set up a 2:00pm meeting for me at the Concept Packaging offices at 53rd and Madison." - Ernie Cefalu -- [rockpopgallery.typepad.com] .

Since it was a Friday at the beginning of February 1971, it was very likely the 5th: "The next two weeks were like a blur to me. By the middle of February, I had created the finished line art for the stamp-style lettering and the tongue logo for The Rolling Stones Sticky Fingers album cover and had made a big head start on all initial looks for the merchandising pieces." - Ernie Cefalu -- [rockpopgallery.typepad.com] .

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georgie48

If I read that story correctly he even claims to have been involved with the Sticky Fingers album???

Also from the UnCovered Interview 2009: "It was a really cool construction and when Marshall [Chess] asked me what I thought of it, I told them the first thing that came into my head. 'If it were me, I would put a real zipper in it' as opposed to the graphic one they were currently showing." - Ernie Cefalu -- [rockpopgallery.typepad.com] .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 23:00 by Irix.

Here's a link to The Grammy's. https://www.grammy.com/grammys/news/logos-stick

Here's a link to the guy who wrote the article. Looks like he's had a bunch of books published: https://www.amazon.com/Chuck-Crisafulli/e/B001JPA0FA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 22:57 by roller99.

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roller99

Here's a link to The Grammy's. https://www.grammy.com/grammys/news/logos-stick

"The Rolling Stones' iconic logo, which features lavish lips and a protruding tongue, was first used in 1971 when the band was establishing its own label imprint, but seems to have a dual origin history. The lips seen most often throughout the band's career were designed by British artist John Pasche, who was a student at London's Royal College of Art when a call from the Stones' management led to a sit-down meeting with Mick Jagger.

'He said he really wanted something that would represent the band without using the band name, which was quite unusual at the time', recalls Pasche. 'He had a picture of the [Hindu] goddess Kali, who has a very distinctive pointed tongue coming through her lips. It was more of a challenge than you might think to come up with a disembodied mouth, but I finally came up with a [three-fourth] profile in a style that Mick quite liked. He took it back to the band and not too long after that it turned up on Sticky Fingers. It was really a visualization of what the band was trying to put across in its music, and I think it's survived so long because the Rolling Stones have stayed true to who they are as a band.'

Before the release of Sticky Fingers, fans in the United States may have seen a different set of lips, designed by artist Ernie Cefalu at the behest of the Stones' manager Marshall Chess. Cefalu's design, distinct from Pasche's in its heavier use of black outline, was used on a wide variety of U.S. merchandise.

'I actually like John's logo better', Cefalu admits. 'Mine was stiff and stylized, [but John] added life to it.'

Adding an element of contemporary style, for the Rolling Stones' 50th anniversary, the logo has been refreshed by artist Shepard Fairey, who also created the official artwork for the 52nd Annual GRAMMY Awards.

'Logos can be difficult work', adds Cefalu, who has also designed logos for artists such as Aerosmith, the Bee Gees, Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, and Earth, Wind & Fire, as well as the logo for the rock opera Jesus Chris Superstar. 'But they feel simple when you get them right. A logo [has] to resonate with what a band stands for, but, more importantly, it has to create an emotional connection with a fan. If you have those two things together, you've got something that can last a long time. You bring a band and a fan together in one simple piece of design, and you've got magic.' -- (Chuck Crisafulli, L.A.-based journalist and author)"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-01 23:30 by Irix.

Any idea what the supposed pre-STICKY FINGERS merchandise with the lips was? Because I've only ever seen that goofy tongue from 1972 pictures.

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GasLightStreet

Any idea what the supposed pre-STICKY FINGERS merchandise with the lips was?

Looks like it was this:


[iorr.org]


[iorr.org]


[iorr.org]


[Twitter.com]


[rockpopgallery.typepad.com]


Ernie Cefalu: "The logo that I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971." - [rockpopgallery.typepad.com]

The 'Sticky Fingers'-Album was released on 23 April 1971.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-05 00:05 by Irix.

Ernie Cefalu: "The logo that I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971." - [rockpopgallery.typepad.com]

The 'Sticky Fingers'-Album was released on 23 April 1971.[/quote]

His statement that he joined Craig Braun's company in February 1971 (he even clearly remembered the headhunter name) has been confirmed by former colleages several years ago. "The logo that I did the finish on" ... "well (???) before the end of February of 1971" ... (the same logo that Braun claimes as his product, which was also owned by the Rolling Stones (!) by the way, could only have been the one with the separate teeth. The choice of the logo that ended up in de non-American version of Sticky Fingers was selected by Chess and the Stones in during October/November sessions in Amsterdam and London 1970. Modifications on that choosen one (from John Pasche) were done WELL BEFORE February 1971! Cefalu admitted in a video interview that he didn't even know where that version (popularly nicknamed "the American" version, and the most used one!) came from, while showing a black shirt full with that "American" version logo. Well, it was made in the same company that Cefalu joined in February 1971 and was finished WELL BEFORE that date. The people involved in that process were Mr. D and Mr. V. To cut things "short", from design point of view there is no link between the multiple teeth version and all famous version.
Braun presented the multiple teeth version to the Rolling Stones (and off course Mr. Chess) well into 1971 and he was given a 3 years contract (NOT 18 months or 5 years, or any other figure) by the newly formed company of the Rolling Stones, settled in Amsterdam in 1971. That version was occasionally on T-shirts worn by individual members of the band during the 1972 USA tour, as shown by f.i. Irix.
Nor Cefalu, nor the likes of earlier mentioned people named Mazur or Maurer, had anything to do whatsoever with the alltime famous Tongue and Lips logo.
The link with the "Day Tripper girl"? I really enjoy reading all the speculations on that one, but I am not going to spend words on it (yet).

I have read a lot of these comments about my contribution to The Stones Tongue logo and I would be remiss if I didn't say they all crack me up. Everyone talks like they were there when I created my original version at the begining of 1971 up in Craig's art department. I say, what you really know... only what you have read. Well here's the reality to it all... none of you were there with me and if you wern't then how do you know. Also if you, the nay sayers took the time to see how really different the two logo versions are and the fact that The Stones used both mine and John's versions at the exact same time it might bring a better understanding. Quite honestly, I am tired of being miss quoted and my words twisted, so if you Email me directly at: ernie@originalalbumcoverart.com I will be more that happy to address each and every response and inquire as best I can. Thank you and I will look forward to hearing from you my fellow Stones Lovers. LONG LIVE ROCK & ROLL... LONG LIVE THE ROLLING STONRES! - Ernie

Bye Bye Ernie

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edog
I have read a lot of these comments about my contribution to The Stones Tongue logo and I would be remiss if I didn't say they all crack me up. Everyone talks like they were there when I created my original version at the begining of 1971 up in Craig's art department. I say, what you really know... only what you have read. Well here's the reality to it all... none of you were there with me and if you wern't then how do you know. Also if you, the nay sayers took the time to see how really different the two logo versions are and the fact that The Stones used both mine and John's versions at the exact same time it might bring a better understanding. Quite honestly, I am tired of being miss quoted and my words twisted, so if you Email me directly at: ernie@originalalbumcoverart.com I will be more that happy to address each and every response and inquire as best I can. Thank you and I will look forward to hearing from you my fellow Stones Lovers. LONG LIVE ROCK & ROLL... LONG LIVE THE ROLLING STONRES! - Ernie

"The beginning of 1971" .... here's another one. Yip, most readers weren't there when you joined Craig Braun's company on February 5, 1971, but ... some of you former collaeges were!
"The Stones used both mine and John's version at exact the same time" ... is another one. Nobody is miss quoting what you have put out in public. When someone clearly says "A" it is "A", but if "A" doesn't fit "the story" and gradually becomes "Aa", well, people know what that means. The Stones (since when are you a fan? $$$) did NOT use Craig Braun's multiple teeth version (officially licenced at an exact date to his company for 3 years, and which you claim is yours) and their (famous) record label version at exactly the same time!
I could ask you questions on your site anonymously (you are a great designer for true, maybe this helps your business), but the only thing I am after is that true Rolling Stones fans get to know the truth. Be happy.

I think The Stones DID use "Craig Braun's" version.

Rolling Stones Mobile Truck

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roller99

I think The Stones DID use "Craig Braun's" version.

It's Ernie Cefalu's Logo (also used for the in 1971 created 'Licks' memorabilia line).



Rolling Stones Mobile Studio


But the question is: When exactly was Ernie Cefalu's Logo painted onto the Mobile Studio's door?


They used Ernie Cefalu's Logo also on stage for Tour-Shirts -- but in 1973:


Exhibitionism · [www.GettyImages.com]


Both Tongue&Lips-Logos below were used by The Rolling Stones at the exact same time in 1971:


Logo by John Pasche, inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' international Edition 1971



Logo by (yet unknown) Inhouse-Illustrators of Craig Braun's Sound Packaging Corporation, inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-04 22:40 by Irix.

Craig Braun's personal story about designing the Tongue&Lips-Logo (8-Dec-2016):

"I had decided that because it was the Rolling Stones' first release under their own label after leaving Decca Records (London in U.S.), to use this logo on the cover", Craig says. "Mick had commissioned a young art school student [John Pasche, who has since earned six figures for his sketches] in London to design a logo, but he had not completed a design. He'd only completed some sketches, rough sketches of it. And Marshall Chess [...] was in London, and I said to him, 'I want to put the design on the inner sleeve.' He said, 'Well, all I have is a rubber stamp from the sketch!' So I said for him to stamp it a few times, put it on a fax which, on a thermal fax machine, the quality is just shit, but I could see the silhouette of it, where the art student was going, very fuzzy, and about 3/4 of an inch, so I blew that up to about 12" and I had an illustrator working for me and I said, 'I want you to re-draft this for me.' After many a back-and-forth, trial-and-error fleshing-out with the illustrator, the Rolling Stones' tongue and lip logo as we now know it was being hatched."

More: [www.Amoeba.com] .

I haven't read the entire thread so this was possibly already posted before, but Ernie's logo has been used until very recently on official T-shirts:



[therollingstonesshop.com]

Some original items from the 1971/72 'Licks' memorabilia line:


[www.Amoeba.com] · [www.Amoeba.com] · [www.Amoeba.com]



[RollingStonesVaults.Blogspot.com]



[www.Amoeba.com]



[www.GramUnion.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-05 03:15 by Irix.

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Cristiano Radtke
I haven't read the entire thread so this was possibly already posted before, but Ernie's logo has been used until very recently on official T-shirts:



[therollingstonesshop.com]

No surprise Cristiano,

It's not (was never) Ernie's (and since the Braun deal of 3 years was finished decades ago, not Braun's either). It was and is owned by The Rolling Stones .....

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georgie48

It's not (was never) Ernie's (and since the Braun deal of 3 years was finished decades ago, not Braun's either). It was and is owned by The Rolling Stones .....

Do you mean in terms of ownership?

If so, then yes - because Ernie Cefalu was "only" a freelancer of the Craig Braun Inc. (or the divisions like Sound Packaging or Rockreations) and Craig Braun himself was the licensee for Musidor, the licensing company for the Rolling Stones.


"LICKS ® BY ROCKREATIONS TM MUSIDOR N.V." stamped on back:



[www.WorthPoint.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-05 14:20 by Irix.