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roller99
Apparently you don't speak for "everyone" and don't know the true story.

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roller99

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GasLightStreet
How there can be any controversy about who did what first is absurd. It's only on iorr.org that it exists. It's been well documented that John Pasche came up with the logo. Cefalu did a variation on it later.

There's nothing to argue.

Really? Where's your proof? Fact checking? Did you speak to any of the people involved?

Know what you're talking about before you post.

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roller99

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GasLightStreet
How there can be any controversy about who did what first is absurd. It's only on iorr.org that it exists. It's been well documented that John Pasche came up with the logo. Cefalu did a variation on it later.

There's nothing to argue.

Sure Mr. "bold my text so you know I mean business"...

That's why there are pictures of the actual members of the Stones wearing shirts with Ernie's design BEFORE the second design had been released/before Sticky Fingers had made it to pressing. But go ahead and ignore that fact too. Sleep well in your complete and blissful ignorance of the facts.

Night night.

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Irix

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roller99

That's why there are pictures of the actual members of the Stones wearing shirts with Ernie's design BEFORE the second design had been released/before Sticky Fingers had made it to pressing. [...]

This may be - but Ernie Cefalu stated clearly that he has done his version in 1971, while the Victoria and Albert Museum (London, UK) stated that the version by John Pasche was done in 1970 ....

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Naturalust
Thanks for your kind words roller. It's cool that you have researched this issue a bit deeper. At one time I read everything I could find on the issue and came up with a similar conclusion about what likely happened with the two designs.

I've also pointed out that since Cefalu was working for an agency and directed by Marshall Chess and Pasche seemed to be working directly with Jagger, it's likely Pasche had an advantage in the whole chain of command concerning band decisions.

Not sure why GSL is so determined to discredit Cefalu here. Both artist deserve credit for their work. I think it's likely Pasche holds on to the issue more than Cefalu since he seems like the less accomplished of the two artists, certainly in terms of album and rock and roll art. No doubt at this point he will hold on to his assertion that he was first and we will likely never find the truth about the copyright date and other business considerations which certainly effected the story and outcome.

I do like Pasche's tongue art a bit better but Cefalu has done some other stuff which is pretty damn amazing. I notice Ernie posted a sweet comment on your blog site, that was nice! Obviously you made a good impression on him and it was indeed a nice article. Good work.

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GasLightStreet

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Naturalust
Thanks for your kind words roller. It's cool that you have researched this issue a bit deeper. At one time I read everything I could find on the issue and came up with a similar conclusion about what likely happened with the two designs.

I've also pointed out that since Cefalu was working for an agency and directed by Marshall Chess and Pasche seemed to be working directly with Jagger, it's likely Pasche had an advantage in the whole chain of command concerning band decisions.

Not sure why GSL is so determined to discredit Cefalu here. Both artist deserve credit for their work. I think it's likely Pasche holds on to the issue more than Cefalu since he seems like the less accomplished of the two artists, certainly in terms of album and rock and roll art. No doubt at this point he will hold on to his assertion that he was first and we will likely never find the truth about the copyright date and other business considerations which certainly effected the story and outcome.

I do like Pasche's tongue art a bit better but Cefalu has done some other stuff which is pretty damn amazing. I notice Ernie posted a sweet comment on your blog site, that was nice! Obviously you made a good impression on him and it was indeed a nice article. Good work.

Because Pasche designed the logo and Cefalu did a variation on it after? Who's in the museum? Who's credited with the logo? Not Cefalu. The only discrediting I've done is about the original logo and that only. I know Cefalu did other things, which were great. But Pasche is credited, with Jagger even stating that Pasche was asked to come up with it, with having come up with the logo.

Cefalu feels slighted about his version of the logo with what was done that's his problem. The logo everyone knows the most is the Pasche logo that was changed by the record label.

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His Majesty

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Irix
Direct comparison:



Left: Alan Aldridge Illustration 1969 - Right: Tongue&Lips logo, Sticky Fingers 1st US-Edition 1971

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Irix
John Pasche:

"I was recommended and on 29 April 1970 Jo Bergman, who was running the Stone's office at the time, wrote to me to confirm that they had commissioned me to design a poster for their forthcoming tour. [...] A short time later, I met with Mick again, who then asked me to design a logo or symbol for The Rolling Stone's new record label. Mick showed me an image of the Goddess Kali which became the starting point to our discussion regarding the design of the logo. I was paid £50 for the design, which took me about a week to complete." (1) , (2)


The exact date of the meeting would be very interesting ....

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Irix

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roller99

Basically Ernie did the design, and was sitting in a room with Marshall Chess. Chess took the design upstairs and gave it to Pasche and told him to give it "more animation". [...]

According to the Uncovered Interview this must have been from February 1971 on:

"I remember it was a really cold rainy Friday at the beginning of February 1971, and Jack had set up a 2:00pm meeting for me at the Concept Packaging offices at 53rd and Madison. As I headed uptown, I felt like a kid that was on his way to the first day at a new school, ready to encounter new people and surroundings. All I was told by Jack was that Craig knew who I was, what I had done with Superstar and that they were excited about meeting with me."

But John Pasche has been contacted by the Stones already in April 1970:


Detailed object description: Victoria and Albert Museum

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Naturalust

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Irix
John Pasche:

"I was recommended and on 29 April 1970 Jo Bergman, who was running the Stone's office at the time, wrote to me to confirm that they had commissioned me to design a poster for their forthcoming tour. [...] A short time later, I met with Mick again, who then asked me to design a logo or symbol for The Rolling Stone's new record label. Mick showed me an image of the Goddess Kali which became the starting point to our discussion regarding the design of the logo. I was paid £50 for the design, which took me about a week to complete." (1) , (2)

I've heard this story too. My take on it is that Mick wanted to not have to pay either of the original artists, so he claims that he saw the Kali design first, that way he could take credit for the thing. It's also of interest that Ernie had done a design for a label on a record called "Dolls Alive" which also had a similar design. He did it in 1969. And Ernie had also done work with none other than Decca Records prior to all the tongues. He did the album cover for Jesus Christ Superstar. So Decca knew of him and his work. Apparently it was Decca who asked him to come over to the office and meet Marshall Chess.

And hey, that hexagonal album cover looks similar to.....

The exact date of the meeting would be very interesting ....

OK Irix, thanks. I'm willing to accept that Pasche did his work before Cefalu. I do find it interesting that he took a week to do what Cefalu did in 40 minutes though. lol

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Naturalust

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GasLightStreet

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Naturalust


I've also pointed out that since Cefalu was working for an agency and directed by Marshall Chess and Pasche seemed to be working directly with Jagger, it's likely Pasche had an advantage in the whole chain of command concerning band decisions.

Both artist deserve credit for their work. I think it's likely Pasche holds on to the issue more than Cefalu since he seems like the less accomplished of the two artists, certainly in terms of album and rock and roll art. No doubt at this point he will hold on to his assertion that he was first and we will likely never find the truth about the copyright date and other business considerations which certainly effected the story and outcome.

I do like Pasche's tongue art a bit better but Cefalu has done some other stuff which is pretty damn amazing. I notice Ernie posted a sweet comment on your blog site, that was nice! Obviously you made a good impression on him and it was indeed a nice article. Good work.

Because Pasche designed the logo and Cefalu did a variation on it after? Who's in the museum? Who's credited with the logo? Not Cefalu. The only discrediting I've done is about the original logo and that only. I know Cefalu did other things, which were great. But Pasche is credited, with Jagger even stating that Pasche was asked to come up with it, with having come up with the logo.

Cefalu feels slighted about his version of the logo with what was done that's his problem. The logo everyone knows the most is the Pasche logo that was changed by the record label.

I'm just kind of playing devil's advocate here and all I have to go on is what I've read from others and from Cefalu and Pasche. Yes Pasche did THE logo he claimed he did, that is not where the controversy lies.

After reading lot of stuff and stories, I believe Cefalu didn't come up with a variation on Pasche's tongue. His stories seem credible enough to me, detailed in the extreme with times, dates and persons. It seems to me he was working on a variation of his own art and nothing indicates he had seen Pasche's work. He specifically talks about first seeing Pasche's on the SF record. Nothing indicates he felt slighted.

Mick's early commission of Pasche mentioned a logo but it seemed the main focus might have been the poster. We don't really know how much of a hurry they were in for a logo. Had Pasche ever mentioned the exact dates he did his work? I know the copyright is 1970 but I believe there was possibly business reasons for indicating that early date, specifically since they had also commissioned Craig Braun's group and Cefalu had come up with something very similar.

The only quotes I've seen from Pasche are considerably more vague:

Pasche said: "Mick had a picture of Kali, the Hindu goddess, which he was very keen on. India was very much in fashion at the time, but I thought something like that might go out of date."

and

"I wanted something anti-authority, but I suppose the mouth idea came from when I met Jagger for the first time at the Stones' offices. I went into this sort of wood-panelled boardroom and there he was. Face to face with him, the first thing you were aware of was the size of his lips and his mouth."

(it would be interesting to find out the date of that meeting)

I mean it's entirely possibly both artists came up with very similar designs independently, strange as that may seem. I just tend to believe Cefalu about his inspiration and creation of his version. Pasche's seems like a rework of Cefalu's, not the other way around, since it's definitely an improvement. Just saying....

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roller99

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Irix

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roller99

Basically Ernie did the design, and was sitting in a room with Marshall Chess. Chess took the design upstairs and gave it to Pasche and told him to give it "more animation". [...]

According to the Uncovered Interview this must have been from February 1971 on:

"I remember it was a really cold rainy Friday at the beginning of February 1971, and Jack had set up a 2:00pm meeting for me at the Concept Packaging offices at 53rd and Madison. As I headed uptown, I felt like a kid that was on his way to the first day at a new school, ready to encounter new people and surroundings. All I was told by Jack was that Craig knew who I was, what I had done with Superstar and that they were excited about meeting with me."

But John Pasche has been contacted by the Stones already in April 1970:


Detailed object description: Victoria and Albert Museum

Interesting, I've never seen this. If it's authentic (and I assume it is), he may have gotten the letter and not acted on it until after seeing Ernie's design. More research...

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schillid
He was known for his nudes

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Naturalust
I don't so much want to duke it out as to just understand a few of the vague or missing pieces of the puzzle here. Not that I'm particularly confident that will ever happen. We've got Ernie's story (thank you Mr. Cefalu) in great detail. I have lots of respect for him and don't doubt him at all.

What is missing is Marshall Chess's involvement in the whole affair with respect to both artists. He seems to be the link between them, or at least Craig Braun and Pasche. I find it a bit suspicious that if Pasche had this beautiful completed logo, approved by Mick in 1970, why would they continue to contract out Braun's agency to come up with another logo....one that turned out so similar? Common sense just tells you that there was some sharing of information happening, and since I believe Cefalu's story, one of the conclusions that's easy to make is that Mr. Chess shared Cefalu's design with Pasche and he improved on it.

Of course the problem with that is the date of the Stones copyright of Pasche's work. But Pasche never really says anything other than "shortly after", etc. so it leaves us with an incomplete picture. I'd love to know what Marshall Chess has to say about all this. Sure it's trivial but an important piece of Stones history so very interesting.

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roller99
I've tried reaching out to Marshall Chess with no luck, and his wife is playing a cat-and-mouse game. If I do get to him or her, I'll let you know.

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Irix

John Pasche:

"I was recommended and on 29 April 1970 Jo Bergman, who was running the Stone's office at the time, wrote to me to confirm that they had commissioned me to design a poster for their forthcoming tour. [...] A short time later, I met with Mick again, who then asked me to design a logo or symbol for The Rolling Stone's new record label. Mick showed me an image of the Goddess Kali which became the starting point to our discussion regarding the design of the logo. I was paid £50 for the design, which took me about a week to complete." (1) , (2)

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roller99

I've heard this story too. My take on it is that Mick wanted to not have to pay either of the original artists, so he claims that he saw the Kali design first, that way he could take credit for the thing. It's also of interest that Ernie had done a design for a label on a record called "Dolls Alive" which also had a similar design. He did it in 1969. And Ernie had also done work with none other than Decca Records prior to all the tongues. He did the album cover for Jesus Christ Superstar. So Decca knew of him and his work. Apparently it was Decca who asked him to come over to the office and meet Marshall Chess.



And hey, that hexagonal album cover looks similar to.....

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Naturalust

[...] I find it a bit suspicious that if Pasche had this beautiful completed logo, approved by Mick in 1970, why would they continue to contract out Braun's agency to come up with another logo....one that turned out so similar? [...]

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Irix

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Naturalust

[...] I find it a bit suspicious that if Pasche had this beautiful completed logo, approved by Mick in 1970, why would they continue to contract out Braun's agency to come up with another logo....one that turned out so similar? [...]

The answer delivers the article from the [www.nytimes.com] · [www.iorr.org] :

"In New York, Mr. Braun had a deadline and needed the logo. As the tongue design was still unfinished, he settled for a rough one-inch version, faxed over from London by Marshall Chess, the founding president of Rolling Stones Records. [...]

Mr. Pasche barely noticed. “It was a relaxed affair,” he said. “I just think things were happening fast and needed to be done, so it was redrawn.”