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There are some positive things with CYHMK, like Taylor making a difference and the fact that it's not a warhorse. But still I'm a Little ambivalent about fusion jazz in 2013.
And it looks like the rest of the band feels something like that too.

I can see your point, and I'm not a fan of that genre at all (as younger I would have put my stance much rougher, to say it mildly...)

But then again, this is a band who once made a rock and roll anthem out of samba, and rock classics with a sitar, or from a disco beat, etc. So for me that little experiment with "fusion jazz" goes along that line. It is refreshing that they still so late in their game are able to enrich their musical vocabulary.

I think the problem is more with the hardcore fans who have too closed shop deal how the Stones should sound like...

- Doxa

Doxa, he's just not playing all that well, there is much in the way of bluffing here. There's no more danger or creativity in Taylor's CYHMK soloing than Jaggers harmonica solo on the same song. Jaggers solo was actually better played, risky and indeed an adventure.

When someone like kleermaker starts giving in to emotional nostalgia you know something his wrong musically as he has been quite dismissive of nostalgia in relation to music before. Taylorites giving in to this, well they should maybe understand better why so many people still get a buzz from seeing The Rolling Stones in their so called Vegas era.

Of the first paragraph: I disagree completely, and won't give a flying fvck if someone tries to convince me by some "objective" criteria that "He's not playing all that well". Go on and check Toto - this is The Stones to me, with its ups and downs, mistakes and all. It's the over-all impression which counts - and Taylor being the driving motor there - and it works.

Of the second paragraph: it's all nostalgia now, but within that the Taylor compotent gives us - or me - a needed refreshing element to the way too predictable package we've been treated decades now. That's enough for me for being excited. I've digging and celebrating the glory past by the same show and musical idea as long as I remember, so for me even a little move out of the box is a change for better. Not much, but enough to get this old fan excited. Yes, I will have a heart of full nostalgia and emotions when I will hear all those jumpingjackflashs, startmeups, satisfactions, tumblingdices, missyous, gimmeshelters etc. again in Hyde Park, but that kind of stuff does not inspire me to follow the tour behind the lap top, or to write about them. But this Taylor thing has a novelty factor, which I find stimulating.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 17:04 by Doxa.

Agree with you Doxa.

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Thanks Latebloomer! To top it off I went by myself and still had a blast! My kids were busy,plus I paid enough for my ticket, I didn't want to pay for someone who was just tagging along as a favour! Everyone around me was talkative and happy, so I didn't feel like a giant loser, and the view and sound were great. Had a great time.

I had the same experience at the Dec. 15 Newark show, first time ever by myself and I had a blast. I pay enough money for what my kids want, the Stones are for me!

couldn't get a date again, eh?

Oh, I suppose I should have opted for listening to jazz and talking food, huh? I'd rather walk on hot coals...

we can walk on the coals after the first date...first things first.

I really hate it when you are actually funny...

this is why i try to keep it to a very very bare minimum. i remember last year when i was funny and you didn't like that either. don't say i never do anything for you.

I think we need to move this conversation to the 'Flirting' sticky that BV has kindly provided. This thread is for live updates for the Toronto June 6 show.

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Thanks Latebloomer! To top it off I went by myself and still had a blast! My kids were busy,plus I paid enough for my ticket, I didn't want to pay for someone who was just tagging along as a favour! Everyone around me was talkative and happy, so I didn't feel like a giant loser, and the view and sound were great. Had a great time.

I had the same experience at the Dec. 15 Newark show, first time ever by myself and I had a blast. I pay enough money for what my kids want, the Stones are for me!

couldn't get a date again, eh?

Oh, I suppose I should have opted for listening to jazz and talking food, huh? I'd rather walk on hot coals...

we can walk on the coals after the first date...first things first.

I really hate it when you are actually funny...

this is why i try to keep it to a very very bare minimum. i remember last year when i was funny and you didn't like that either. don't say i never do anything for you.

I think we need to move this conversation to the 'Flirting' sticky that BV has kindly provided. This thread is for live updates for the Toronto June 6 show.

it's about 363 days until june 6...we have to do something with this thread in the meantime.

Like i said, Mick Taylor is God. and it has made the Stones younger, him being there. the danger is back.

let him play at ALL songs !!

@#$%& great stuff .

jeroen

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corriecas
Like i said, Mick Taylor is God. and it has made the Stones younger, him being there.

he's right. you add taylor and his age into the rest and divide by 5 and you get a slightly lower number. excellent use of mathematics, jeroen!

1) I'm a huge MT fan. He's been real important to me. 2) I totally respect concert fans' enthusiasm for the Stones, shelling out hard-earned money, absorbing the energy. It's undeniable.

However, to say one can't discern a great performance even through a compromised recording is just not true. I don't know where my Philly Special comes from, but the audio sucks—sounds like a phone booth. As such, I have not enjoyed it as much as Brussels or Sydney, but there are things on Philly, like GS that I listen to.

Point is, the critical listener can discern a good performance from a bad recording, YouTube or otherwise. And MT is often out of sync, doing too much chumming, or just playing unnecessary rhythm, that muddies the sound of a band that excels at the balance of positive and negative (empty) space.

Just my take, not flaming or piling on. I just wish the band would rearrange the players instead of adding (I've described RW on bass scenario in previous post).

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I just wish the band would rearrange the players instead of adding (I've described RW on bass scenario in previous post).

I agree with your wish, but I'm afraid that is just a fantasy talk. That would ask too much from them. They won't change a good enough working model they've been used to some 24 years. Instead of it, which would ask too much creative energy, it is a case of adding a new compotent there with seemingly two tacticks: (a) just kick Taylor in and let him minimally beef the sound or ice the cake by his own vision (like in "Satisfaction"), or give him a distinguished and isolated role of its own, which is to say: let him play an extended solo, and the others being just his backing band, ("Knocking").

- Doxa

This is an honest question from my 19 yr old nephew who's been reading this thread and listening to the videos:

He thinks MT is fantastic but never heard of him before and wonders if his solos (which he thinks sound like Santana) are what the Stones included in their live performances back in the day. I don't know the answer to that.

None of the recordings have those longish solos (I don't think). So do you folks know about them thru the concerts you used to go to?

Thanks.

his soloing on can't you hear me knocking certainly has a santana-esque quality to it. many back in the day thought he was ripping off carlos....carlos actually does a nice version of this on a recent rock-covers album. otherwise, i don't think any of mick's soloing on record with the stones is very reminiscient of santana's style...

Dream night ruined when man is deemed too drunk for Rolling Stones show

[www.thestar.com]

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StonesTod
his soloing on can't you hear me knocking certainly has a santana-esque quality to it. many back in the day thought he was ripping off carlos....carlos actually does a nice version of this on a recent rock-covers album. otherwise, i don't think any of mick's soloing on record with the stones is very reminiscient of santana's style...

ok...but did you learn to appreciate MT from live performances w/the Stones where he soloed or from records or from his solo career?

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his soloing on can't you hear me knocking certainly has a santana-esque quality to it. many back in the day thought he was ripping off carlos....carlos actually does a nice version of this on a recent rock-covers album. otherwise, i don't think any of mick's soloing on record with the stones is very reminiscient of santana's style...

ok...but did you learn to appreciate MT from live performances w/the Stones where he soloed or from records or from his solo career?

both. the stones have not really been about long guitar solos...the taylor years were an anomaly...only time they had a virtuoso player in the band. in some ways it bound to come to a head at some point...he quit before that happened.

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his soloing on can't you hear me knocking certainly has a santana-esque quality to it. many back in the day thought he was ripping off carlos....carlos actually does a nice version of this on a recent rock-covers album. otherwise, i don't think any of mick's soloing on record with the stones is very reminiscient of santana's style...

ok...but did you learn to appreciate MT from live performances w/the Stones where he soloed or from records or from his solo career?

both. the stones have not really been about long guitar solos...the taylor years were an anomaly...only time they had a virtuoso player in the band. in some ways it bound to come to a head at some point...he quit before that happened.

Ah...thank you. That might sort of explain why so many Stones fans who might not have been around for that short early Taylor period, don't like or "get" his sound w/ the band. Thanks again.

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Jesse
This is an honest question from my 19 yr old nephew who's been reading this thread and listening to the videos:

He thinks MT is fantastic but never heard of him before and wonders if his solos (which he thinks sound like Santana) are what the Stones included in their live performances back in the day. I don't know the answer to that.

None of the recordings have those longish solos (I don't think). So do you folks know about them thru the concerts you used to go to?

Thanks.

Here's his longest concert solo being a Rolling Stone. Certainly not santana-esque. Anyway, give the second video a listen to get an impression of Taylor during his heyday with the Stones and the third to get an impression of Taylor as a Stone and as a soloist. Enjoy.

YCAGWYW plus solo:




1973 concert:




Finally Taylor with the Stones and solo (studio hybrid): Winter

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his soloing on can't you hear me knocking certainly has a santana-esque quality to it. many back in the day thought he was ripping off carlos....carlos actually does a nice version of this on a recent rock-covers album. otherwise, i don't think any of mick's soloing on record with the stones is very reminiscient of santana's style...

ok...but did you learn to appreciate MT from live performances w/the Stones where he soloed or from records or from his solo career?

both. the stones have not really been about long guitar solos...the taylor years were an anomaly...only time they had a virtuoso player in the band. in some ways it bound to come to a head at some point...he quit before that happened.

Ah...thank you. That might sort of explain why so many Stones fans who might not have been around for that short early Taylor period, don't like or "get" his sound w/ the band. Thanks again.

quite possible. very few doubt that the taylor years represented the pinnacle of the band...the debate is more about whether taylor was integral to that or just along for the ride. no right answers to that. we get to find out in the next life....

kleermaker, thanx much.

Taylors solo from CYHMK in Toronto was terrible. Sounded like a kid trying to learn the guitar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 18:13 by RockinJive.

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I find that this clip sounds a lot better

Oh, what a treasure, sonically and visually!

Indeed! Really smoking.....thanks for posting that clip

\
Listen at 1:19. It makes no sense. Out of time and random notes that are out of key. WTF happened to this guy. He has totally lost it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 18:18 by RockinJive.

At 2:50 Mick tells him 3 times to stop the BS.

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Ever hear yourself recorded on a phone? Most of the time you think your own voice or that of your friend sounds strange. Same goes for the Stones' music.

It's ok to argue whether MT should play more or less because you idolize him -- but as far as real music analysis goes, forget it.

I esp like the videos with the audience members singing or talking in the background (or foreground)... And you want to judge the music quality? Don't think so.

Happy Saturday.

OK, making mental notes hear, first take a big piss in everyone's cheerios, and then, and only then wish them a great weekend.

I think I've got it.

Ok, I didn't phrase it properly. I DO NOT think the Stones music sounds strange. I eagerly to listen to all videos that are up and appreciate and enjoy them.

What I meant to say was, one can't do detailed music ananysis based on the videos; You'd have to be there. Just to clarify one more time: I really really enjoy the videos and think they're fun. I am NOT criticizing the Stones...I love them and any sounds they make.

Okay, I can see your point, and reading some of your other posts, made me realize that you are put under too strong pressure by us IORR nerds here (I personally feel a bit ashamed). The thing is that so many of us have listened and learned to appreciate the Stones by secondary material - bootlegs - and not through first hand concert experiences, so that it has a sort of created a realm of its own by which to judge the band's doings. Most of the so called "objectivity" comes from that base. Of course, that is never equal for being there in present, which is a different animal altogether. To really experience the concert you need to be there. No any docement can give you that over-all feeling and the presence of the music. I think that was what you meant by that "detailed musical analysis".

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 18:29 by Doxa.

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At 2:50 Mick tells him 3 times to stop the BS.

More lip raeders here.. You hear what you want to hear...

- Doxa

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Ever hear yourself recorded on a phone? Most of the time you think your own voice or that of your friend sounds strange. Same goes for the Stones' music.

It's ok to argue whether MT should play more or less because you idolize him -- but as far as real music analysis goes, forget it.

I esp like the videos with the audience members singing or talking in the background (or foreground)... And you want to judge the music quality? Don't think so.

Happy Saturday.

OK, making mental notes hear, first take a big piss in everyone's cheerios, and then, and only then wish them a great weekend.

I think I've got it.

Ok, I didn't phrase it properly. I DO NOT think the Stones music sounds strange. I eagerly to listen to all videos that are up and appreciate and enjoy them.

What I meant to say was, one can't do detailed music ananysis based on the videos; You'd have to be there. Just to clarify one more time: I really really enjoy the videos and think they're fun. I am NOT criticizing the Stones...I love them and any sounds they make.

Okay, I can see your point, and reading some of your other posts, made me realize that you are put under too strong pressure by us IORR nerds here (I personally feel a bit ashamed). The thing is that so many of us have listened and learned to appreciate the Stones by secondary material - bootlegs - and not through first hand concert experiences, so that it has a sort of created a realm of its own by which to judge the band's doings. Most of the so called "objectivity" comes from that base. Of course, that is never equal for being there in present, which is a different animal altogether. To really experience the concert you need to be there. No any docement can give you that over-all feeling and the presence of the music. I think that was what you meant by that "detailed musical analysis".

- Doxa

Thanks Doxa.

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andrewt

I find that this clip sounds a lot better

Oh, what a treasure, sonically and visually!

Indeed! Really smoking.....thanks for posting that clip

\
Listen at 1:19. It makes no sense. Out of time and random notes that are out of key. WTF happened to this guy. He has totally lost it.

THere are places he fumbles, especially during the first 1-2 minutes of every CYHMK solo on this tour....it's not like it's the perfect solo, but there are great moments there as well, especially during the mid to end part of the solo. I think it's a thrill overall, despite the bumps, as it's a reminder on how it could had been, IF they had been in their prime and was playing music; instead of these Start Me Ups, Rough Justices and whatever.

I'm waiting for the solo to fall completely apart any second in this clip, so it's a relief when Taylor do find them great notes. The whole band seems to be real excited as well, much more than I've seen them on other tours

Taylor hasn't lost it completely, though he's not what he used to be. It's real great to hear him trying though, instead of going the autopilot/safe way around it, like RS has been doing for most live performances the last 25 years. Finally some excitement on stage



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 19:02 by Erik_Snow.

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Very odd no song voting or any Tweets from them or anyone in the band at all....

It's Canada, eh?

The internet doesn't really work all too good up there.

Shows how much you know about the tech industry. lol!!!

[thepowergoats.com]

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Erik_Snow
THere are places he fumbles, especially during the first 1-2 minutes of every CYHMK solo on this tour....it's not like it's the perfect solo, but there are great moments there as well, especially during the mid to end part of the solo. I think it's a thrill overall, despite the bumps, as it's a reminder on how it could had been, IF they had been in their prime and was playing music; instead of these Start Me Ups, Rough Justices and whatever.

I'm waiting for the solo to fall completely apart any second in this clip, so it's exciting to watch; and real good when Taylor do find them great notes. The whole band seems to be real excited, as well, much more than I've seen them before, on other tours

Taylor hasn't lost it....but he's not what he used to be, for sure, but he's really trying his best; instead of going on autopilot like RS has been doing for 20 years, with a couple of exceptions now and then

A fine description, Erik, and I wholeheartidy agree with the ups and down you mention. We are following the same story...

But what is striking in watching this clip is that there is not an equavalent in recent Stones history - if ever - that a singular instrumentalist is given so much responsibility in his shoulders without any kind of safe belt. He is there "naked". No one can help him - or the band - if he totally screws ups. It is really "see what happens" moment, and I think the rest of the band is equally excited as the crowd in following what happens. And the fact that it is Taylor - a born improvisionalist - there who really don't understand what safe and sure autopilotism even means. They didn't even try to try this with Woodie back in 2002/03. So my thumbs up for the whole band for taking the risky involved.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 19:10 by Doxa.

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THere are places he fumbles, especially during the first 1-2 minutes of every CYHMK solo on this tour....it's not like it's the perfect solo, but there are great moments there as well, especially during the mid to end part of the solo. I think it's a thrill overall, despite the bumps, as it's a reminder on how it could had been, IF they had been in their prime and was playing music; instead of these Start Me Ups, Rough Justices and whatever.

I'm waiting for the solo to fall completely apart any second in this clip, so it's exciting to watch; and real good when Taylor do find them great notes. The whole band seems to be real excited, as well, much more than I've seen them before, on other tours

Taylor hasn't lost it....but he's not what he used to be, for sure, but he's really trying his best; instead of going on autopilot like RS has been doing for 20 years, with a couple of exceptions now and then

A fine description, Erik, and I wholeheartidy agree with the ups and down you mention. We are following the same story...

But what is striking in watching this clip is that there is not an equavalent in recent Stones history - if ever - that a singular instrumentalist is given so much responsibility in his shoulders without any kind of safe belt. No one can help him - or the band - if he totally screws ups. It is really "see what happens" moment, and I think the rest of the band is equally excited in following what happens. And the fact that it is Taylor - a born improvisionalist - there who really don't understand what safe and sure autopilotism even means. They didn't even try to try this with Woodie back in 2002/03. So my thumbs up for the whole band for taking the risky involved.

- Doxa

It's indeed fascinating to see the reactions of Mick, Keith, Ron and Charlie. Kudos to Mick for letting it go, to Keith for applauding and smiling, to Ronnie for encouragement and to Charlie for working his ass off. The band at its best.

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Listen at 1:19. It makes no sense. Out of time and random notes that are out of key. WTF happened to this guy. He has totally lost it.

Although "totally lost it" is harsh and untrue, I respect your listening here; inconsistent is more apt, as his off-tempo playing and inability to find his way is negating a lot of the good sections.

Being "dropped in" for a song or two cannot be easy, and his eagerness to chum with the band in these precious moments is undermining his playing, as probably would not be the case if he were a more permanent fixture, where he could get down to being rooted and focus on playing.

When MT starts looking around, bouncing his leg, goofing (essentially morphing into RW), I get uneasy as I know his playing is about to go downhill fast.

I'm just not seeing any evolution of this process. But if I were Mick and Keith, I would tell MT: we want you on these 2 songs, but just stand in front of your amp and play, you know, like you did from '68-'73. Leave the chumming to us, it's not your forte, never has been. Your strength is in your playing, so do that for your 2 songs and show us and the fans a bit of the Golden Age again. Thanks MT.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 19:17 by paulm.

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THere are places he fumbles, especially during the first 1-2 minutes of every CYHMK solo on this tour....it's not like it's the perfect solo, but there are great moments there as well, especially during the mid to end part of the solo. I think it's a thrill overall, despite the bumps, as it's a reminder on how it could had been, IF they had been in their prime and was playing music; instead of these Start Me Ups, Rough Justices and whatever.

I'm waiting for the solo to fall completely apart any second in this clip, so it's exciting to watch; and real good when Taylor do find them great notes. The whole band seems to be real excited, as well, much more than I've seen them before, on other tours

Taylor hasn't lost it....but he's not what he used to be, for sure, but he's really trying his best; instead of going on autopilot like RS has been doing for 20 years, with a couple of exceptions now and then

A fine description, Erik, and I wholeheartidy agree with the ups and down you mention. We are following the same story...

But what is striking in watching this clip is that there is not an equavalent in recent Stones history - if ever - that a singular instrumentalist is given so much responsibility in his shoulders without any kind of safe belt. He is there "naked". No one can help him - or the band - if he totally screws ups. It is really "see what happens" moment, and I think the rest of the band is equally excited as the crowd in following what happens. And the fact that it is Taylor - a born improvisionalist - there who really don't understand what safe and sure autopilotism even means. They didn't even try to try this with Woodie back in 2002/03. So my thumbs up for the whole band for taking the risky involved.

- Doxa

True that! Well, it's almost true. Because Keith did screw up terrible in 2006/2007, just watch SFTD in the Shine A Light movie as an example (there are much worse moments available on bootlegs) , yet he continued his "solo" - and I think Jagger never would allow "Taylor without safety belt" on this 2013 tour if it wasn't for what he experienced on the ABB tour.

Maybe he met his worst fear on that tour....standing in front of 100.000. with such horrible guitarplaying making the songs fall apart. After something like .....that he shouldn't be that afraid of having Taylor soloing for 4 minutes. Well...it COULD be like that I suppose

But you are right; never has the band been so concentrated on ONE player that's walking on a tightrope, and giving him so much time alone on stage, ever before. Ronnie did get to play 5 minutes of solo on YCAGWYW in 1975/1976; but he was very capable in those days, the band didn't need to be that nervous



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-08 19:42 by Erik_Snow.

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kleermaker

It's indeed fascinating to see the reactions of Mick, Keith, Ron and Charlie. Kudos to Mick for letting it go, to Keith for applauding and smiling, to Ronnie for encouragement and to Charlie for working his ass off. The band at its best.

Yeah. I need to repeat myself, but I think it is a wonderful move by the whole band for all this to happen. That Mick Taylor is there - in the middle of million dollar show - and taking the whole show into his shoulders for five minutes or so, it is really a wonderful sign how much the band appreciates and trusts him. To be fair, I am very moved about it, and actually - once again - positively surprised by the Stones. In my wildest dreams a year ago or so, I couldn't have imagined I could witnness something like this.

- Doxa