...he was a brillant player with the Faces and he held the band together - a great player....

now why is he so ineffective with the Stones?

It hurts me watching him these days and seeing him play like a drunk and a spastic!
Can someone help- him? And help us? Will he ever be near the great player he used to be?.....I think not...

In fact, I hope the Stones sack him and give us the rest of their cash....what does he do to the band these days?? 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

ZERO

Disappointed Esky

I respect women who can suck golf balls through a garden hose....

The reason is Rod Stewart.
Ronnie ridin'on the Rod keeps him hot
Ronnie hanging out with Mick makes him sick
Schuine

True Schuine, Rod took him under his arm, then he went to the Stones and began a drinking/drug rampage with Keith....very unfortunate.....

I respect women who can suck golf balls through a garden hose....

Keith could be a reason, hanging out with him and as said above getting in that drug rampage did not help his guitar playing. Plus Keith was always the guitar that Ronnie would follow while playing in the Stones, I have heard people refer to Ronnie as a "Keith clone." I agree his guitar playing and songwriting with the Faces was simply brilliant. Which is why Mick or maybe it was Keith said that Ronnie was already a star in his own right before he joined the Stones.

I only got into the Faces recently and I could not believe that Ronnie is the same person playing guitar as the person we here these days with the Stones.

My opinion on this is that Ronnie was only bad on the latter part of the Licks Tour. He have been totally cool with the Stones before that. I blame the drinking. I think he fell back into the bottle sometime during Licks.

But yes: He was very good in the Faces. But it was also a different type of songs, which require a different type of playing. On the first few records that Ronnie did for the Stones you could hear that his playing was rooted in the Faces. That changed into a more stonesy playing. And there's nothing wrong with that I think.


JumpingKentFlash

I do believe it was Ron who convinced the other Faces to invite his ex bandmate Rod to rehearsals - Ron didnt start really getting marginalized til around B2B - I mean he has 10 officially released writing credits (not counting IORR or Hey Negrita) from 1978 - 86 (cant imagine SG & the others without him, or with MT), & I do think his drinking/drugging gave the glimmers an excuse. I also think he added a lot (especially in studio, but also on the '78 Handsome Girls set, & even parts of the US leg of the last tour)to the RS, even on parts of B2B (the album) & sober his talent can be accessed if the spirit is there...I mean he was tres cool on his '92-93 solo tour & on Not for Beginners (Chelseadrugstore nice to see your sign lit up again - open all night?)...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-03-12 18:21 by john r.

(Too much) Alcohol.............

Now, this is a really good thread. My thoughts exactly...what happened to his playing. The distinctive intro to Stay With Me is as good as anything I've heard. He was a standout guitarist...no doubt about it.

It's my opinion That Mick and Keith are so controlling over the band that anyone else gets discouraged from contributing to the band effort. Think about how all of these guys have egos and when they are not allowed creative control or contributions to a project and perhaps feel helpless or just ordered around ,some just resort to anything that will numb that feeling in order to survive. It happen to Brian, Mick Taylor and Bill! Hell, it even happen to and Charlie...And Mick and Keith love Charlie! There is no surprise That Ron has been driven to drink at times.

JumpingKentFlash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My opinion on this is that Ronnie was only bad on
> the latter part of the Licks Tour. >

Absolutely not...his playing wasn't very good at any point along the way - it certainly didn't deteriorate in Europe as so many apparently believe.

Hmmm StonesTod, having seen several Licks shows on various continents and listening to a crap load of boots I agree and diagree with you. He did not completely deteriorate on Europe. As the tour progresses I think he became less consistent. For instance, I think his playing in the early theater shows was better than any but one or two of the European theater shows, but then he hit spot on at Utrecht. For instance, in Sydney, I think he was on it at the first arena show, but was shameful at the second show.

I also agree with you that he is not what he was with the Stones, but i have my ideas about that also. The booze has not helped, but I think Ronnie is caught in a bad spot, he has bad nights so they rely on him less and turn him down in the mix. Being hardly heard, on some levels he must see no reason to rise to the challange etc etc. It cannot be easy being between the two biggest egos ( and possibly the tow toughest bastards) in the business.

Been listening to the Handsome Girls material (78).
Just the 5 guys with Stu and Ian McLagan.
Ronnie sounds OK there.....
Nowadays I think a lot is to do with not having to play because the extra musicians "fill out" the sound
In the Faces Woody had to do all the guitar work.....
Maybe if the Stones played as a 5 piece (with keyboard extra) there would be difference.
Hang on.....is that not what they do on the B-stage?!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-03-13 18:32 by GuessWho.

I think Ronnie isn't bad all the time. I bet he plays muck better guitar than we all together can do.Every guitarist have his moments. Ok, in Ronnies's case Alcohol could be a reason why he much more ou of tune than before. But hey, Keith has also got his moments he wich he was not on stage in front of 50,000 people or more.
Ronnie got his own stye and Keith has his own syle. A style only they can play.

To tell the truth I just listened to the boot of the entire Sarstock perfromance, and I am not impressed with Keith at all that night. So he does have his off nights. I have to say when Ron of late has been more in the "spotlight" with his guest spots, he does a a lot better when he cannot hide. I love his work on the Corrs live album from a few years back. Come to think of it, I guess both guitarists in the Rolling stones are kinda coasting right now with the back up muscicians doing most of the work.

Ron's demise sort of goes hand in hand with the Stones' stage sound getting more and more watered down. I agree that all these extra musicians do not help matters at all. When Ron decides to not play a single note throughout a whole song (which he nowadays often does, it does not affect the song one bit. All those damn horns, leavell's noodling, Blondie's guitar, JAGGER's guitar!, maybe even another keyboard player, and a bunch of backup vox going "ooh ooh" fill it all out plenty.
Can you imagine if Ronnie had done what he does today in 78? Half of the sound would drop out.
The question is to me: what came first? Did Ron start to suck and then Jagger went and got a bunch of filler musicians?
Or did all these clowns arrive and THEN Ron (AND Keith) just realized they could coast a lot more?
What makes it worse IMO is that laying out like this just seems to feed the beast. You play less, and you get lazy and lousy. Keith would NEVER , in his worst heroin daze, ever f*ck up an intro to "Brown Sugar" more than once in a tour.
The thing is Ronnie can most definetly still play. All you need to do is listen to his solo albums. "Not For beginners" showcases a much different musician than "Own Album" or "A Nod is a s good" but that is the way it is supposed to be. He is a more mature msuician.
IMO the only way to ever get Ron (and by now Keith too) to play for real again with the Stones is to force him to. And that is to drop all those clowns on stage. Especially Leavell.

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did Ron
> start to suck and then Jagger went and got a bunch
> of filler musicians?
>

Ron sucked first - Jagger's no dummy and he knew damned well he couldn't take the boys out on the road in '89 without a net....it would have been a total embarrassment (the tour turned out that way for other reasons).

I've said it countless times on countless threads and I'll do again. The bottle (or whatever dependency) sometimes causes some musicians to completely lose it. Hilton Valentine (Animals), classic case in point. Ronnie's fall wasn't quite that hard, but not far off. I think he's spent much of the last 3 years trying to re-learn to play guitar - but he can't even approach some of his prowess of the 70's. Keith's falling down that path a little later in life.

A friend of mine had a Ronnie theory as early as 1985. He also mentioned how great Ronnie Wood played with the Faces and kind of sucked with the Stones.

His theory was Keith Richards' ego was so big that Wood was basically told never to overshadow lord Richards playing or he would be packing. There definately could be some truth to this.

Bob:

The theory doesn't hold up - he hasn't played well since '85 with or without Keith and the Stones around...

I don't agree. Listen to the live tracks from Stripped Companion. Ronnie is burning my ears off with cool playing on those tracks. FF has it's very good moments too (CYHMK). All tours since '89 have had a very cool Ronnie. Only time he sucked was the latter Licks Tour IMO.

JumpingKentFlash

JKF - you sound more "fan" than "critic"

That might be true. It might even be a problem for me, because if you're that type of fan you're more "closed" in your listening. On the other hand there are some people that are too much of a critic. Meaning that they simply bash too hard on a certain subject that it's completely unreasonable. I think I'm a mix of the two. Ronnie gets so much heat for nothing. He is actually a pretty good guitarist.

JumpingKentFlash

He is actually a
> pretty good guitarist.
>
> --------------------------------------------------

substitute "was" for "is" and I'm right with ya...

I think JKF is right - and there's lots of good critical insights on this thread. Ron has some fine playing (guitars & bass) on SW, VL, Stripped, B2B, etc...The stage issue since '89 is as others have mentioned more complicated - the video cues, the newly sober and careful Jagger who probably sees the '81/'82 tours as ramshackle, Ron's addiction problems, less space for the guitarists when all the extra musicians are up there. When the band minus horns etc crank out SFM, MR, YGMR, etc they play great - I hope if the new album is as reported more guitar oriented that will be reflected more on tour...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-03-14 01:25 by john r.

He was virtually non existent on the BTB tour and I mean NON EXISTANT...

Well he's been in rehab a few times since '98 - but I do recall some very hot versions of Out of Control, just to mention one standout & audience favorite w/Ron featured. But I do recall songs on which he didnt play much or was mixed low. The info regarding the RW interview - he was sent demos of new songs & will be joining the others - shows how utterly different his role is from when he was in Faces (or the Beck Group for that matter), or even circa Dirty Work. Even on Steel Wheels there was still a Keith/Ron faction that had some problem with the Mick/Matt Clifford approach - and it was Mick, Keith, & (yes) Ron who traveled to Morocco to work w/ the Master Musicians on Continental Drift.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-03-14 04:56 by john r.

<he hasn't played well since '85 with or without Keith and the Stones around...>

You better listen to Atlantic City and say that again. His playing became more unstable, yes, but it didn't start to decline hard before the VL-tour.

... And is this a critics message board?

I think I agree with CD (ChelseaDrugstore), when this signature is writing:

"IMO the only way to ever get Ron (and by now Keith too) to play for real again with the Stones is to force him to. And that is to drop all those clowns on stage. Especially Leavell."

Please have indulgence with me that I have never seen a Stones concert in real life; but still I have watched the dvds from the licks/2003-tour.

Make it more rootsy, cozy, rock 'n' rollish. Stu or Nicky Hopkins, thats my guys:
Maybe its time to find a new key board person? IS there anybody of them black bluezers alive and around?

Well this argument goes WAY back - I think MJ wants to cover any possible problem or embarrassment, with Leavell & horns. This allows the guitars to sometimes coast - especially when KR is unwilling/able to sing & play at the same time (hence the vocalists) - they might argue this is closer to the sort of Stax/Ike & Tina/James Brown revue I'm sure they dug in the 60s. I have always preferred McLagan (only real surviving alternative)to Leavell, but that means KR or KR/RW would have to assume m.d. resposibility again - which brings us back to the 'family dynamics' going back generations, and god knows how hard those are to change...I'm fine w/ the Bernard/Blondie/Lisa setup and a horn section USED ON CERTAIN SONGS but where does Keith stand on all this, and do Ron's opinions even count anymore?

One thing has been missed here. Ron was the only guitarist in the Faces and had a way of playing rythm and lead at the same time. It is very different playing with another guitarist to playing with a keyboard player. I also think that Keith plays rythm and lead at the same time (i.e. he doesn't just play straight chords but does alot of ebelishing). This can go 2 ways - they can either "weave" or they end up clashing. Nowadays, they end up clashing.

Also, I don't know how anyone can judge Ron live, since I didn't hear him play a single note at any of the Licks gigs I went to!

sjs12 wrote:

"This can go 2 ways - they can either "weave" or they end up clashing. Nowadays, they end up clashing".
-------------------------------------------------------

I'd like they ended up clashing nowadays. This would mean that both guitarists would be actually playing...




[There'll be no wedding today...]