I've been trying to get my head around the concept of modes, and now while I understand the theoretical side to it and how they are constructed, I'm still a bit confused as to where and how the scales are used. So I stumbled across a page on Wikipedia, where it says Let It Loose uses this scale.

Can anyone help me out and tell me in what way, and where in the song?

Thanks. I guess I'm a little confused here. :-)

You got the Sun, You got the Moon,
and you've got
The Rolling Stones

Aaaaah, I messed with those modes too and sometimes it is clear to me and sometimes not. So regarding the beautiful guitar in the intro and throughout Let it Loose I think Keith plays using the F Mixolydian mode which is actually the 5th mode of the Bb major scale (i.e. 1-Bb, 2-C, 3-D, 4-Eb, 5-F). So, as I understand it if you play the notes of the F mixolydian mode using the intervals of this mode (namely whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step) which is is starting from the F note:
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb
you are meeting the intro appregio notes Keith is playing within the fingerings of F, Bb, Gm, C chords (remember, guitar is capoed at 3rd fret, standard tuning).
So, to cut a long story short, as I think that Let it Loose tends to be tonally structured around the Bb scale, Keith gives this "minor-ish" feeling with his appregios by bringing into play the F mixolydian scale (remember the 5th mode of the Bb scale, which means playing within the tonal structure of this scale) with its melancholic character.
Now, if Let it Loose was let's say hovering around the G scale, then no capo would be necessary and keith would play around D mixolydian which is again the 5th mode of the G scale (i.e. G-A-B-C-D) using these notes that fall into the structure of the mixolydiian mode i.e. whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step, which would be respectivelly, D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D. This IS actually playng around the G major scale, BUT when you improvise within this set of notes going from D to D and taking into consideration the whole step/semitone structure of this set/scale of notes, there you get something really different than simply playing along the G scale the 'usual' way. The mixolydian scale has a minor feeling!
Taylor was a master in playing around these modes and structures, going from modes to the blues scale and natural scale with ease. Santana is doing it a lot too. For example 'Europa'.
Hope this helps more than it confuses...

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Kirk
Aaaaah, I messed with those modes too and sometimes it is clear to me and sometimes not. So regarding the beautiful guitar in the intro and throughout Let it Loose I think Keith plays using the F Mixolydian mode which is actually the 5th mode of the Bb major scale (i.e. 1-Bb, 2-C, 3-D, 4-Eb, 5-F). So, as I understand it if you play the notes of the F mixolydian mode using the intervals of this mode (namely whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step) which is is starting from the F note:
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb
you are meeting the intro appregio notes Keith is playing within the fingerings of F, Bb, Gm, C chords (remember, guitar is capoed at 3rd fret, standard tuning).
So, to cut a long story short, as I think that Let it Loose tends to be tonally structured around the Bb scale, Keith gives this "minor-ish" feeling with his appregios by bringing into play the F mixolydian scale (remember the 5th mode of the Bb scale, which means playing within the tonal structure of this scale) with its melancholic character.
Now, if Let it Loose was let's say hovering around the G scale, then no capo would be necessary and keith would play around D mixolydian which is again the 5th mode of the G scale (i.e. G-A-B-C-D) using these notes that fall into the structure of the mixolydiian mode i.e. whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step-whole step-semitone-whole step, which would be respectivelly, D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D. This IS actually playng around the G major scale, BUT when you improvise within this set of notes going from D to D and taking into consideration the whole step/semitone structure of this set/scale of notes, there you get something really different than simply playing along the G scale the 'usual' way. The mixolydian scale has a minor feeling!
Taylor was a master in playing around these modes and structures, going from modes to the blues scale and natural scale with ease. Santana is doing it a lot too. For example 'Europa'.
Hope this helps more than it confuses...

That's what I thought ><

Thank you very much! I've got a better feel for the thing now. The more I read about it the more it sort of 'clicks' in my mind.

Do you think Keith played this knowing he was using the Mixolydian scale? It seems more to me as if he was playing around with the D, G and A shapes with capo on the 3rd fret, and struck upon this beautiful passage.

You got the Sun, You got the Moon,
and you've got
The Rolling Stones

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yorkey
Thank you very much! I've got a better feel for the thing now. The more I read about it the more it sort of 'clicks' in my mind.

Do you think Keith played this knowing he was using the Mixolydian scale? It seems more to me as if he was playing around with the D, G and A shapes with capo on the 3rd fret, and struck upon this beautiful passage.

Keith doesn't know a mixolidian from a mixologist. He was fiddling with these chords and they sounded cool.

Have to agree with Tele, there is no way on this Earth Keith had any inclination of what scale he was meddling in. You just mess around on the D slight variation on the usual rock arpeggio gives you that wonderful Mixolydian sound and hey presto you have a classic song on your hands.

Thanks for actually giving me the science of the song, I've played it for decades and, probably like Keith, didn;t have a clue what was going on scale wise. It's in my top 5 Stones songs and nice to have the above knowledge.

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crumbling_mice
Have to agree with Tele, there is no way on this Earth Keith had any inclination of what scale he was meddling in. You just mess around on the D slight variation on the usual rock arpeggio gives you that wonderful Mixolydian sound and hey presto you have a classic song on your hands.

Thanks for actually giving me the science of the song, I've played it for decades and, probably like Keith, didn;t have a clue what was going on scale wise. It's in my top 5 Stones songs and nice to have the above knowledge.

The beauty - and genius - of Keith is his "fiddling around" results (or used to result) in amazing riffs and songs, while my fiddling around is just that - fiddling around. He doesn't need to know what a mixolydian scale is to do that. He just has to be Keith Richards.

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71Tele

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crumbling_mice
Have to agree with Tele, there is no way on this Earth Keith had any inclination of what scale he was meddling in. You just mess around on the D slight variation on the usual rock arpeggio gives you that wonderful Mixolydian sound and hey presto you have a classic song on your hands.

Thanks for actually giving me the science of the song, I've played it for decades and, probably like Keith, didn;t have a clue what was going on scale wise. It's in my top 5 Stones songs and nice to have the above knowledge.

The beauty - and genius - of Keith is his "fiddling around" results (or used to result) in amazing riffs and songs, while my fiddling around is just that - fiddling around. He doesn't need to know what a mixolydian scale is to do that. He just has to be Keith Richards.

Me too Tele, my God how I have fiddled over the years and yet - nothing of earth shattering importance ever comes out...usually I end up playing something that is so close to something already recorded and usually by the Stones!!! Frustrating.

Many musicians know lots of scales by heart, but they can't create anything interesting. Other musicians, like Django Reinhardt or Keith Richards don't know anything about that, but they have the feel for sounds and chords and hence create awesome music.

Yes, I think I have to agree with the comments above. That is, I don't think that Keith sat down saying "Well, let's do something for this one using the mixolydian mode of the relevant key the song is on". This goes for all his favourite licks and fingerings which can of course be explained and interpreted in terms of music theory: added notes, suspended and diminished chords and notes,4ths,9ths,11ths and so on and so on. This goes for the blues, the Chuck Berries, everyone!To me Keith is a 'handyman', a creative bricoleur when it comes to guitar playing. He is coming up with bits and pieces put together in a very coherent fashion, if these are the right words to choose here. His toolbox contains basic tools, however brilliantly used for diverse aims with excellent results. Moreover, I think this is true for Jagger too with respect to the way he handles singing, especially in live performances. I dare to say that to me at least, the Stones do not just perform their songs over and over, they put them together from scratch each time they play as if it was the first time playing them.

Technique is a tool in the tool chest - nothing more. Anyone can be taught technique, scales, etc. Talent can't be taught.

Yes, this is it 71 Tele! So, you must be a guitar player just loving the Stones right? And I just love to have this kind of conversations in this forum!

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Kirk
Yes, I think I have to agree with the comments above. That is, I don't think that Keith sat down saying "Well, let's do something for this one using the mixolydian mode of the relevant key the song is on".

True. John Lennon was genuinely surprised to discover that the music on early Beatles albums actually had "aeolian cadences"--which he found out only after a music critic pointed this out in a review.

This song (Not A Second Time) inspired a musical analysis from William Mann of The Times, citing the "Aeolian cadence" (Aeolian harmony) of Lennon's vocals as the song draws to a close, and noting that the same chord progression appears at the end of the final movement of Mahler's "Das Lied von der Erde." Lennon, years later, remarked: "To this day, I have no idea what [Aeolian cadences] are. They sound like exotic birds." The actual meaning of the term "Aeolian cadence" is when a major key song resolves on the VI chord, which is the tonic chord of the relative minor key. The term derives from the fact that the Aeolian mode is rooted on the sixth step of the major scale.

Story of Beatles song Not A Second Time at: [en.wikipedia.org]

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Kirk
I dare to say that to me at least, the Stones do not just perform their songs over and over, they put them together from scratch each time they play as if it was the first time playing them.

A very interesting and insightful comment, Kirk. I never thought of it that way but it's true.

As for Let it Loose, I believe I'm the only member of this forum who doesn't like that song, which I suppose is partly because of the "mixolydian" sound.

Drew

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Kirk
Yes, this is it 71 Tele! So, you must be a guitar player just loving the Stones right? And I just love to have this kind of conversations in this forum!

Me too, kirk! yes, another frustrated Keith Richards here.

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crumbling_mice
Me too Tele, my God how I have fiddled over the years and yet - nothing of earth shattering importance ever comes out...usually I end up playing something that is so close to something already recorded and usually by the Stones!!! Frustrating.

I do the exact same thing! I once 'thought up' a riff that sounded wonderful to me, and only a couple of hours later did I realize it's Ventilator Blues.

You got the Sun, You got the Moon,
and you've got
The Rolling Stones

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yorkey

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crumbling_mice
Me too Tele, my God how I have fiddled over the years and yet - nothing of earth shattering importance ever comes out...usually I end up playing something that is so close to something already recorded and usually by the Stones!!! Frustrating.

I do the exact same thing! I once 'thought up' a riff that sounded wonderful to me, and only a couple of hours later did I realize it's Ventilator Blues.

Ha ha, yes that's it...maybe we are being too hard on ourselves and maybe Keith is just re-working old blues riffs that most of us haven't heard yet!

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71Tele
Technique is a tool in the tool chest - nothing more. Anyone can be taught technique, scales, etc. Talent can't be taught.

You won't get that tool for free though.
If you got it all, that's truly fantastic.

Django is probably the best example, playing with basically 2 fingers, and two crippled ones.

The Mixolydian scale just gives a dominant 7th sound.

If someone changes from playing a A Blues scale or a A major scale (A major pentatonic) over an A chord to playing an A Mixolydian scale over an A chord then they are effectively pushing the tonal centre in more of an A7 direction.

Mixing scales up between the minor Blues (minor Pentatonic) and major Blues (major Pentatonic) and Dorian and Mixolydian is pretty common and it's done by ear depending on what the song and harmony are implying or what the player wants to force over the harmony.

Elliot Easton from the cars is a specialist at mixing up these scales especially the minor/major Blues scales.

If the harmony (chord) is A7 then a A Mixolydian scale fits in with it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-21 11:18 by howled.

Good explanation here .........

Go to the bottom of this page .......

[www.justinguitar.com]

Intro to modes ........

[www.justinguitar.com]

I love this guy's website and method of teaching. Justin used to play in the UK based Counterfeit Stones ironically enough ....

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Django didn't know what "G" was, when he sat in with Duke Ellington...

Personally I find all of the modes as being pretty meaningless to someone who is learning them unless they can associate sound examples of the mode to a song or solo or piece of music because then they know how to use the thing which is the main point of it.

In something like this, Elliot is using the major pentatonic for the inbetween verse solos and then for the solo at the end of the song which is played mostly over a static chord, he is mixing things up between the Blues and Major Pentatonic and also probably Dorian and maybe a bit of Mixolydian and on one run does a bit of outside playing that resolves back.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-21 11:28 by howled.

I love these scales. To me, the hardest stuff to learn was how Mick Taylor would switch between scales. It took me years to finally figure out how he could make the solos on Dead Flowers. I still haven't totally nailed it but maybe 80% of it. It's such a beautiful style.
Django too, such amazingly melodic playing. I don't think I will ever figure out Django's stuff. I'm running out of time.

How a player switches between just the major and minor Blues scales, can be a large part of their style.

I don't know enough Taylor solos, but the major and minor Blues scales are the core of Blues guitarists like Clapton etc and also the older Blues players.

Sax players do a lot of it as well btw.

Even Eddie Van Halen uses the major and minor Blues scales a lot and mixes them up but in a different way and so he sounds a bit different but is using the same scales as Clapton or Taylor.

Same scales, different players = different result.

Django uses arpeggios a fair bit and scales but he's such a melody based player that I think he's more concerned with melodies than anything else.

I have an interview with Django where he mentions the key of F# minor, so don't believe Django knew nothing about keys etc.

Listen to the Django interviews in this.

video: [www.youtube.com]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-21 14:31 by howled.

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paulywaul
Good explanation here .........

Go to the bottom of this page .......

[www.justinguitar.com]

Intro to modes ........

[www.justinguitar.com]

I love this guy's website and method of teaching. Justin used to play in the UK based Counterfeit Stones ironically enough ....

Thanks! He explains it all quite well I think!

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Kirk
Keith gives this "minor-ish" feeling with his appregios by bringing into play the F mixolydian scale .

Funny part is that Keith plays a C7 before going to the F chord again, and a F7 before going the Bß Maj. It makes the song sound like it has two different keys, F ionian and Bß ionian. Deceptive cadence though, it's F mixo indeed, but it keeps the tension going on.

Right! As if Let it loose is 'working' on both keys Bb and F. Now, for example, look at Jagger's singing in 19th nervous breakdown. Song is in E and Mick is singing right through the E mixolydian mode which is the 5th mode of the A major scale and makes you think that the song could be in A. But he is using the E mixolydian mode starting to sing from the note B and he mainly goes from to B to B in the E mixolydian mode. B would be the fifth mode in the E scale (the tone the song is in). So, by using the E mixolydian mode but accenting B he goes to and fro between relevant notes of E mixolydian suiting both A and E as parent scales.