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tomcasagranda

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Munichhilton

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

The Rubicon was a river

So whats it all got to do with that damnable little cube game that was so popular in the 80's?

That relates to Erno Rubik, an Hungarian mathematician who created the cube, and it can be solved via mathematical algorithms. I wasn't at all interested in it at school, as I was interested in the following:

1. Latin / Classics - Hence my two degrees, one B.A. in Classics, and one M.A in the Classical Tradition.

2. Modern Languages, i.e. French and Italian.

3. Renaissance and Reformation history - not only did I come top out of 25 in my form, I came top of the entire year, and out of 80 kids.

4. Undercover of the Night video - trying to look at the uncensored version on Channel Four.

5. And this was really mean: there was this fat kid at school, who was into Break Dance. He loved Herbie Hancock's Rockit, and attempted to break dance one day. He split his trousers, and slipped on his backside. I really took the mick out of him, yet, years' later, he earns more money than me, and never went through the hallowed environs of university, as an investment banker, while I "Hang Fire" on unemployment benefit. It really goes to show that there's a god above, and possibly it serves me right.

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Green Lady

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Max'sKansasCity

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marianna
I bet Tim Rice said similar, over-the-top things about the ABBA guys to get them to collaborate on "Chess." In that case, it worked. Stones songs with some "Hakuna Matata" thrown in sounds like a bad mix. Though I'm sure Murray Head would enjoy singing as "Mick" on the pre-stage recorded version.

BOOM!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

That is the entire point of Mr Rice bringing any of this up to start with, and all I can say is.... I hope Mick declines any and all ideas of making any Stones Music into some Broadway musical. That would be a disasterbacle.

Please Mr Mick, dont do this type of thing to our music, please dont.

If Mick really is here on iorr, how long d'you think it will be before Max's splendid "disasterbacle" appears in a lyric?

I enjoy Mick's lyrics no end (and Stones lyrics in general - why is Sir Tim talking as if they are 100% Jagger, except to butter up a potential collaborator)? They're clever, honest, witty, wicked, fun... but I don't believe in the World Championship of Lyric-Writing, and if it did exist, Mick wouldn't win it, brilliant though he is.

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

The Rubicon was a river flowing from the Eastern Apennines into the Adriatic Sea, and it was the boundary between Italy and Gaul. By law, a general couldn't cross the Rubicon, as it was Roman territory, as a military leader. It was where, in 49BC, Julius Caesar crossed, and commenced the Civil War against Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey The Great).

Caesar, apparently, and according to Plutarch's Life of Pompey, stated "Let the die be cast", and proceeded to cross the Rubicon. The difference between Plutarch's "Let the die be cast", and Suetonius' "The die is cast" is not just active and passive voices in Latin and Greek, but Plutarch stated that Caesar said it in a loud voice, and in "Greek". Suetonius also doesn't suggest what language Caesar said it in.

The Roman epic poet, Lucan, in Book I of his Pharsalia, doesn't mention any gambling, or dice-playing metaphors. As Caesar is about to cross the Rubicon, the personification of Rome appears to him, and the following is stated:

"Caesar has crossed the Alps, his mighty soul Great tumults pondering and the coming shock. Now on the marge of Rubicon, he saw, In face most sorrowful and ghostly guise, His trembling country's image; huge it seemed Through mists of night obscure; and hoary hair Streamed from the lofty front with turrets crowned: Torn were her locks and naked were her arms. Then thus, with broken sighs the Vision spake: "What seek ye, men of Rome? and whither hence Bear ye my standards? If by right ye come, My citizens, stay here; these are the bounds; No further dare." But Caesar's hair was stiff With horror as he gazed, and ghastly dread Restrained his footsteps on the further bank. Then spake he, "Thunderer, who from the rock Tarpeian seest the wall of mighty Rome; Gods of my race who watched o'er Troy of old; Thou Jove of Alba's height, and Vestal fires, And rites of Romulus erst rapt to heaven, And God-like Rome; be friendly to my quest. Not with offence or hostfie arms I come, Thy Caesar, conqueror by land and sea, Thy soldier here and wheresoe'er thou wilt: No other's; his, his only be the guilt Whose acts make me thy foe".

As a consequence of the Civil War, the Roman Republic was irreparably damaged. Pompey the Great was murdered after the Battle of Pharsalus in 48BC, as he had arrived at Egypt and was executed under the orders of Ptolemy XIII. Battles still continued, with Caesar defeating Gnaeus Pompeius Secundus at Thapsus in 46BC, and Pompey's followers at Munda in 45BC.

Most people know what happened the year after Munda, in that Caesar was murdered in 44BC. In 42BC, Brutus committed suicide at the Battle of Philippi, and the rest of the conspirators were defeated. Consequently, Mark Antony, Octavian, and Lepidus formed the first Triumvirate, and proscriptions took place, wherein anyone that upset them was executed: a case in point being Cicero, who composed the Philippics, denouncing Antony. The Philippics also explains how Paul Simon got the title of "A Short Desultory Philippic".

Antony took up with Cleopatra, hence Blinded By Love, and in 31BC, Octavian defeated him at Actium, and the Republic was no more, replaced by the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

Maybe, Mick should have written Streets of Love first, and then Blinded By Love secondly: it would show the correct adherence to ancient Roman history ?

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Title5Take1

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

The Rubicon was a river flowing from the Eastern Apennines into the Adriatic Sea, and it was the boundary between Italy and Gaul. By law, a general couldn't cross the Rubicon, as it was Roman territory, as a military leader. It was where, in 49BC, Julius Caesar crossed, and commenced the Civil War against Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey The Great).

Caesar, apparently, and according to Plutarch's Life of Pompey, stated "Let the die be cast", and proceeded to cross the Rubicon. The difference between Plutarch's "Let the die be cast", and Suetonius' "The die is cast" is not just active and passive voices in Latin and Greek, but Plutarch stated that Caesar said it in a loud voice, and in "Greek". Suetonius also doesn't suggest what language Caesar said it in.

The Roman epic poet, Lucan, in Book I of his Pharsalia, doesn't mention any gambling, or dice-playing metaphors. As Caesar is about to cross the Rubicon, the personification of Rome appears to him, and the following is stated:

"Caesar has crossed the Alps, his mighty soul Great tumults pondering and the coming shock. Now on the marge of Rubicon, he saw, In face most sorrowful and ghostly guise, His trembling country's image; huge it seemed Through mists of night obscure; and hoary hair Streamed from the lofty front with turrets crowned: Torn were her locks and naked were her arms. Then thus, with broken sighs the Vision spake: "What seek ye, men of Rome? and whither hence Bear ye my standards? If by right ye come, My citizens, stay here; these are the bounds; No further dare." But Caesar's hair was stiff With horror as he gazed, and ghastly dread Restrained his footsteps on the further bank. Then spake he, "Thunderer, who from the rock Tarpeian seest the wall of mighty Rome; Gods of my race who watched o'er Troy of old; Thou Jove of Alba's height, and Vestal fires, And rites of Romulus erst rapt to heaven, And God-like Rome; be friendly to my quest. Not with offence or hostfie arms I come, Thy Caesar, conqueror by land and sea, Thy soldier here and wheresoe'er thou wilt: No other's; his, his only be the guilt Whose acts make me thy foe".

As a consequence of the Civil War, the Roman Republic was irreparably damaged. Pompey the Great was murdered after the Battle of Pharsalus in 48BC, as he had arrived at Egypt and was executed under the orders of Ptolemy XIII. Battles still continued, with Caesar defeating Gnaeus Pompeius Secundus at Thapsus in 46BC, and Pompey's followers at Munda in 45BC.

Most people know what happened the year after Munda, in that Caesar was murdered in 44BC. In 42BC, Brutus committed suicide at the Battle of Philippi, and the rest of the conspirators were defeated. Consequently, Mark Antony, Octavian, and Lepidus formed the first Triumvirate, and proscriptions took place, wherein anyone that upset them was executed: a case in point being Cicero, who composed the Philippics, denouncing Antony. The Philippics also explains how Paul Simon got the title of "A Short Desultory Philippic".

Antony took up with Cleopatra, hence Blinded By Love, and in 31BC, Octavian defeated him at Actium, and the Republic was no more, replaced by the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

Maybe, Mick should have written Streets of Love first, and then Blinded By Love secondly: it would show the correct adherence to ancient Roman history ?

Why Francis Ford Coppola—being a good Italian—named his Napa Valley winery "Rubicon."

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

The Rubicon was a river flowing from the Eastern Apennines into the Adriatic Sea, and it was the boundary between Italy and Gaul. By law, a general couldn't cross the Rubicon, as it was Roman territory, as a military leader. It was where, in 49BC, Julius Caesar crossed, and commenced the Civil War against Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey The Great).

Caesar, apparently, and according to Plutarch's Life of Pompey, stated "Let the die be cast", and proceeded to cross the Rubicon. The difference between Plutarch's "Let the die be cast", and Suetonius' "The die is cast" is not just active and passive voices in Latin and Greek, but Plutarch stated that Caesar said it in a loud voice, and in "Greek". Suetonius also doesn't suggest what language Caesar said it in.

The Roman epic poet, Lucan, in Book I of his Pharsalia, doesn't mention any gambling, or dice-playing metaphors. As Caesar is about to cross the Rubicon, the personification of Rome appears to him, and the following is stated:

"Caesar has crossed the Alps, his mighty soul Great tumults pondering and the coming shock. Now on the marge of Rubicon, he saw, In face most sorrowful and ghostly guise, His trembling country's image; huge it seemed Through mists of night obscure; and hoary hair Streamed from the lofty front with turrets crowned: Torn were her locks and naked were her arms. Then thus, with broken sighs the Vision spake: "What seek ye, men of Rome? and whither hence Bear ye my standards? If by right ye come, My citizens, stay here; these are the bounds; No further dare." But Caesar's hair was stiff With horror as he gazed, and ghastly dread Restrained his footsteps on the further bank. Then spake he, "Thunderer, who from the rock Tarpeian seest the wall of mighty Rome; Gods of my race who watched o'er Troy of old; Thou Jove of Alba's height, and Vestal fires, And rites of Romulus erst rapt to heaven, And God-like Rome; be friendly to my quest. Not with offence or hostfie arms I come, Thy Caesar, conqueror by land and sea, Thy soldier here and wheresoe'er thou wilt: No other's; his, his only be the guilt Whose acts make me thy foe".

As a consequence of the Civil War, the Roman Republic was irreparably damaged. Pompey the Great was murdered after the Battle of Pharsalus in 48BC, as he had arrived at Egypt and was executed under the orders of Ptolemy XIII. Battles still continued, with Caesar defeating Gnaeus Pompeius Secundus at Thapsus in 46BC, and Pompey's followers at Munda in 45BC.

Most people know what happened the year after Munda, in that Caesar was murdered in 44BC. In 42BC, Brutus committed suicide at the Battle of Philippi, and the rest of the conspirators were defeated. Consequently, Mark Antony, Octavian, and Lepidus formed the first Triumvirate, and proscriptions took place, wherein anyone that upset them was executed: a case in point being Cicero, who composed the Philippics, denouncing Antony. The Philippics also explains how Paul Simon got the title of "A Short Desultory Philippic".

Antony took up with Cleopatra, hence Blinded By Love, and in 31BC, Octavian defeated him at Actium, and the Republic was no more, replaced by the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

Maybe, Mick should have written Streets of Love first, and then Blinded By Love secondly: it would show the correct adherence to ancient Roman history ?

Why Francis Ford Coppola—being a good Italian—named his Napa Valley winery "Rubicon."

I also thought The Godfather to be an excellent amalgamation of ancient-world epic, Shakespeare's Hamlet and King Lear, and it remains my favourite film. Every time I watch all three parts, it still has some nuances for me.

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treaclefingers

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

The Rubicon was a river flowing from the Eastern Apennines into the Adriatic Sea, and it was the boundary between Italy and Gaul. By law, a general couldn't cross the Rubicon, as it was Roman territory, as a military leader. It was where, in 49BC, Julius Caesar crossed, and commenced the Civil War against Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey The Great).

Caesar, apparently, and according to Plutarch's Life of Pompey, stated "Let the die be cast", and proceeded to cross the Rubicon. The difference between Plutarch's "Let the die be cast", and Suetonius' "The die is cast" is not just active and passive voices in Latin and Greek, but Plutarch stated that Caesar said it in a loud voice, and in "Greek". Suetonius also doesn't suggest what language Caesar said it in.

The Roman epic poet, Lucan, in Book I of his Pharsalia, doesn't mention any gambling, or dice-playing metaphors. As Caesar is about to cross the Rubicon, the personification of Rome appears to him, and the following is stated:

"Caesar has crossed the Alps, his mighty soul Great tumults pondering and the coming shock. Now on the marge of Rubicon, he saw, In face most sorrowful and ghostly guise, His trembling country's image; huge it seemed Through mists of night obscure; and hoary hair Streamed from the lofty front with turrets crowned: Torn were her locks and naked were her arms. Then thus, with broken sighs the Vision spake: "What seek ye, men of Rome? and whither hence Bear ye my standards? If by right ye come, My citizens, stay here; these are the bounds; No further dare." But Caesar's hair was stiff With horror as he gazed, and ghastly dread Restrained his footsteps on the further bank. Then spake he, "Thunderer, who from the rock Tarpeian seest the wall of mighty Rome; Gods of my race who watched o'er Troy of old; Thou Jove of Alba's height, and Vestal fires, And rites of Romulus erst rapt to heaven, And God-like Rome; be friendly to my quest. Not with offence or hostfie arms I come, Thy Caesar, conqueror by land and sea, Thy soldier here and wheresoe'er thou wilt: No other's; his, his only be the guilt Whose acts make me thy foe".

As a consequence of the Civil War, the Roman Republic was irreparably damaged. Pompey the Great was murdered after the Battle of Pharsalus in 48BC, as he had arrived at Egypt and was executed under the orders of Ptolemy XIII. Battles still continued, with Caesar defeating Gnaeus Pompeius Secundus at Thapsus in 46BC, and Pompey's followers at Munda in 45BC.

Most people know what happened the year after Munda, in that Caesar was murdered in 44BC. In 42BC, Brutus committed suicide at the Battle of Philippi, and the rest of the conspirators were defeated. Consequently, Mark Antony, Octavian, and Lepidus formed the first Triumvirate, and proscriptions took place, wherein anyone that upset them was executed: a case in point being Cicero, who composed the Philippics, denouncing Antony. The Philippics also explains how Paul Simon got the title of "A Short Desultory Philippic".

Antony took up with Cleopatra, hence Blinded By Love, and in 31BC, Octavian defeated him at Actium, and the Republic was no more, replaced by the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

Maybe, Mick should have written Streets of Love first, and then Blinded By Love secondly: it would show the correct adherence to ancient Roman history ?

Why Francis Ford Coppola—being a good Italian—named his Napa Valley winery "Rubicon."

I also thought The Godfather to be an excellent amalgamation of ancient-world epic, Shakespeare's Hamlet and King Lear, and it remains my favourite film. Every time I watch all three parts, it still has some nuances for me.

yes, an epic series. Last time I watched it was all 3 over successive nights.

It`s been a few years though, may do that again soon!

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tomcasagranda

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treaclefingers

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

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tomcasagranda

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Title5Take1

The Rubicon was a river flowing from the Eastern Apennines into the Adriatic Sea, and it was the boundary between Italy and Gaul. By law, a general couldn't cross the Rubicon, as it was Roman territory, as a military leader. It was where, in 49BC, Julius Caesar crossed, and commenced the Civil War against Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey The Great).

Caesar, apparently, and according to Plutarch's Life of Pompey, stated "Let the die be cast", and proceeded to cross the Rubicon. The difference between Plutarch's "Let the die be cast", and Suetonius' "The die is cast" is not just active and passive voices in Latin and Greek, but Plutarch stated that Caesar said it in a loud voice, and in "Greek". Suetonius also doesn't suggest what language Caesar said it in.

The Roman epic poet, Lucan, in Book I of his Pharsalia, doesn't mention any gambling, or dice-playing metaphors. As Caesar is about to cross the Rubicon, the personification of Rome appears to him, and the following is stated:

"Caesar has crossed the Alps, his mighty soul Great tumults pondering and the coming shock. Now on the marge of Rubicon, he saw, In face most sorrowful and ghostly guise, His trembling country's image; huge it seemed Through mists of night obscure; and hoary hair Streamed from the lofty front with turrets crowned: Torn were her locks and naked were her arms. Then thus, with broken sighs the Vision spake: "What seek ye, men of Rome? and whither hence Bear ye my standards? If by right ye come, My citizens, stay here; these are the bounds; No further dare." But Caesar's hair was stiff With horror as he gazed, and ghastly dread Restrained his footsteps on the further bank. Then spake he, "Thunderer, who from the rock Tarpeian seest the wall of mighty Rome; Gods of my race who watched o'er Troy of old; Thou Jove of Alba's height, and Vestal fires, And rites of Romulus erst rapt to heaven, And God-like Rome; be friendly to my quest. Not with offence or hostfie arms I come, Thy Caesar, conqueror by land and sea, Thy soldier here and wheresoe'er thou wilt: No other's; his, his only be the guilt Whose acts make me thy foe".

As a consequence of the Civil War, the Roman Republic was irreparably damaged. Pompey the Great was murdered after the Battle of Pharsalus in 48BC, as he had arrived at Egypt and was executed under the orders of Ptolemy XIII. Battles still continued, with Caesar defeating Gnaeus Pompeius Secundus at Thapsus in 46BC, and Pompey's followers at Munda in 45BC.

Most people know what happened the year after Munda, in that Caesar was murdered in 44BC. In 42BC, Brutus committed suicide at the Battle of Philippi, and the rest of the conspirators were defeated. Consequently, Mark Antony, Octavian, and Lepidus formed the first Triumvirate, and proscriptions took place, wherein anyone that upset them was executed: a case in point being Cicero, who composed the Philippics, denouncing Antony. The Philippics also explains how Paul Simon got the title of "A Short Desultory Philippic".

Antony took up with Cleopatra, hence Blinded By Love, and in 31BC, Octavian defeated him at Actium, and the Republic was no more, replaced by the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

Maybe, Mick should have written Streets of Love first, and then Blinded By Love secondly: it would show the correct adherence to ancient Roman history ?

Why Francis Ford Coppola—being a good Italian—named his Napa Valley winery "Rubicon."

I also thought The Godfather to be an excellent amalgamation of ancient-world epic, Shakespeare's Hamlet and King Lear, and it remains my favourite film. Every time I watch all three parts, it still has some nuances for me.

yes, an epic series. Last time I watched it was all 3 over successive nights.

It`s been a few years though, may do that again soon!

Three is underrated: if it was any other film, it would be hailed as quality.

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Rockman

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triceratops
Jagger wrote some very clever lyrics but that was long ago when he was up and coming and got into "situations". When he could write about young love and its ups and downs. How he used to put down female partners. Once he got rich he was able to insulate himself and became boring. He hobnobbed more with other rich people and the English aristocracy, not exactly a formula for coming up with good lyrics.

Tim Rice is predictable here. Machiavelli will have "Sympathy for The Devil" running through it

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The Worst.

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triceratops
Jagger wrote some very clever lyrics but that was long ago when he was up and coming and got into "situations". When he could write about young love and its ups and downs. How he used to put down female partners. Once he got rich he was able to insulate himself and became boring. He hobnobbed more with other rich people and the English aristocracy, not exactly a formula for coming up with good lyrics.

Tim Rice is predictable here. Machiavelli will have "Sympathy for The Devil" running through it

And it has already been done before:

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treaclefingers

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The Worst.

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triceratops
Jagger wrote some very clever lyrics but that was long ago when he was up and coming and got into "situations". When he could write about young love and its ups and downs. How he used to put down female partners. Once he got rich he was able to insulate himself and became boring. He hobnobbed more with other rich people and the English aristocracy, not exactly a formula for coming up with good lyrics.

Tim Rice is predictable here. Machiavelli will have "Sympathy for The Devil" running through it

And it has already been done before:

Wow, it's great that you've both been able to stay fans given your level of disdain.

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Rockman

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tomcasagranda


Machiavelli wasn't a satanist: he believed, politically, in that the ends justified the means. The Prince continues to divide opinions, and doesn't have a religious context. Machiavelli wrote it to get into the Medicis' good books, and to curry favour with them.

The devious nature of Machiavel is highlighted by Christopher Marlowe's Jew of Malta, in which the character that encourages Barabbas' villainy is Machiavel, named after Machiavelli. Likewise, the devious nature of Iago in Othello is influenced by Machiavelli, as Shakespeare would have read the Prince.

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triceratops

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tomcasagranda


Machiavelli wasn't a satanist: he believed, politically, in that the ends justified the means. The Prince continues to divide opinions, and doesn't have a religious context. Machiavelli wrote it to get into the Medicis' good books, and to curry favour with them.

The devious nature of Machiavel is highlighted by Christopher Marlowe's Jew of Malta, in which the character that encourages Barabbas' villainy is Machiavel, named after Machiavelli. Likewise, the devious nature of Iago in Othello is influenced by Machiavelli, as Shakespeare would have read the Prince.

You are making some implications. Was Mick Jagger a satanist for a while and got jolted out of it by Altamont?

As far as Machiavelli... not a satanist but I still see Sympathy for the Devil being prominently featured here if it ever gets made. Many people see Machiavelli as being evil and this is good enough.

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stonesrule
Tom, you know how much I enjoy many of your posts but it's a bit silly to call Jagger a dilettante...on such flimsy "evidence." Fact is, we would both love to read and own all the books in the Jagger library.

I had a few conversations with Anger, too. But I ain't no dilettante.

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tomcasagranda
No, Mick Jagger wasn't a Satanist, but he was a dilettante, who read The Master & The Margarita by Bulgakov. He also met with Kenneth Anger, author of Hollywood Babylon, and a practising Satanist.

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tomcasagranda
Anger was an interesting figure.

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tomcasagranda


Machiavelli wasn't a satanist: he believed, politically, in that the ends justified the means. The Prince continues to divide opinions, and doesn't have a religious context. Machiavelli wrote it to get into the Medicis' good books, and to curry favour with them.

The devious nature of Machiavel is highlighted by Christopher Marlowe's Jew of Malta, in which the character that encourages Barabbas' villainy is Machiavel, named after Machiavelli. Likewise, the devious nature of Iago in Othello is influenced by Machiavelli, as Shakespeare would have read the Prince.

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stonesrule
Gumboot, you make some interesting points.
One also has to consider the relatively innocent,"hippie-dippie" times young people were living in. Fads came and went. William Burroughs -- 'who's that?" Oh OK, gotta read that book etc. etc. Kenneth Anger...Oh, OK, sounds cool.

Crowley was the one that for a time fascinated quite a few people, readers and dummies alike! But you're leaving out the rock star who took it all too far, and that is Mr. Jimmy Page. He did some terrible things and hurt some naive people with all his "experiments." Satanic? Who am I to say...But he for a number of years was a cruel and destructive human being.

Re Anita Pallenberg,I don't recall that she was heavily influenced by Anger. Nor was she a Satanist. Anita could have had a successful career as an actress but she made wrong choices. And she certainly wasn't a witch leading "innocent Keith" astray, despite rumors to the contrary.

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tomcasagranda

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stonesrule
Gumboot, you make some interesting points.
One also has to consider the relatively innocent,"hippie-dippie" times young people were living in. Fads came and went. William Burroughs -- 'who's that?" Oh OK, gotta read that book etc. etc. Kenneth Anger...Oh, OK, sounds cool.

Crowley was the one that for a time fascinated quite a few people, readers and dummies alike! But you're leaving out the rock star who took it all too far, and that is Mr. Jimmy Page. He did some terrible things and hurt some naive people with all his "experiments." Satanic? Who am I to say...But he for a number of years was a cruel and destructive human being.

Re Anita Pallenberg,I don't recall that she was heavily influenced by Anger. Nor was she a Satanist. Anita could have had a successful career as an actress but she made wrong choices. And she certainly wasn't a witch leading "innocent Keith" astray, despite rumors to the contrary.

Crowley certainly fascinated members of Black Sabbath, and David Bowie too; I refer you to Quicksand on Hunky Dory. There were a lot of authors that people read, or claimed to have read, that continue to this day, and those that claim to have read The Naked Lunch far outweigh those that have actually struggled through the book. For the record, I read The Nuked Lunch, and found it to be self-indulgent twaddle, and thought Burroughs to be overrated.

I would add that I have come across Crowley, in the capacity of briefly volunteering at my Masonic library, and he's lumped in with secondary source material relating to Yeats, theosophy, The Golden Dawn, and Nietzsche's theories on the Ubermensch. What was considered hip is, in reality and in most instances, quite boring.

Now: bearing in mind Donald Cammell, Performance, and Borges: Borges is brilliant, and underrated. His Ficciones, and The Garden of Forking Paths, Tlon Aqbar Orbis Tertius, The South, etc are excellent, and worth reading and analysing.

Furthermore, it was Marianne Faithful that appeared in Scorpio Rising as Lilith, and it was circa 1971, when she was at the height of her addiction. Anita never appeared in Kenneth Anger films, but, according to Victor Bokris, Keith and Anita met Anger, but wound him up too much, and annoyed him, possibly due to drug issues.

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Munichhilton

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tomcasagranda

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stonesrule
Gumboot, you make some interesting points.
One also has to consider the relatively innocent,"hippie-dippie" times young people were living in. Fads came and went. William Burroughs -- 'who's that?" Oh OK, gotta read that book etc. etc. Kenneth Anger...Oh, OK, sounds cool.

Crowley was the one that for a time fascinated quite a few people, readers and dummies alike! But you're leaving out the rock star who took it all too far, and that is Mr. Jimmy Page. He did some terrible things and hurt some naive people with all his "experiments." Satanic? Who am I to say...But he for a number of years was a cruel and destructive human being.

Re Anita Pallenberg,I don't recall that she was heavily influenced by Anger. Nor was she a Satanist. Anita could have had a successful career as an actress but she made wrong choices. And she certainly wasn't a witch leading "innocent Keith" astray, despite rumors to the contrary.

Crowley certainly fascinated members of Black Sabbath, and David Bowie too; I refer you to Quicksand on Hunky Dory. There were a lot of authors that people read, or claimed to have read, that continue to this day, and those that claim to have read The Naked Lunch far outweigh those that have actually struggled through the book. For the record, I read The Nuked Lunch, and found it to be self-indulgent twaddle, and thought Burroughs to be overrated.

I would add that I have come across Crowley, in the capacity of briefly volunteering at my Masonic library, and he's lumped in with secondary source material relating to Yeats, theosophy, The Golden Dawn, and Nietzsche's theories on the Ubermensch. What was considered hip is, in reality and in most instances, quite boring.

Now: bearing in mind Donald Cammell, Performance, and Borges: Borges is brilliant, and underrated. His Ficciones, and The Garden of Forking Paths, Tlon Aqbar Orbis Tertius, The South, etc are excellent, and worth reading and analysing.

Furthermore, it was Marianne Faithful that appeared in Scorpio Rising as Lilith, and it was circa 1971, when she was at the height of her addiction. Anita never appeared in Kenneth Anger films, but, according to Victor Bokris, Keith and Anita met Anger, but wound him up too much, and annoyed him, possibly due to drug issues.

tom

You have some incredibly educational posts...am I smarter after reading them?

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stonesrule
Crowley was the one that for a time fascinated quite a few people, readers and dummies alike! But you're leaving out the rock star who took it all too far, and that is Mr. Jimmy Page. He did some terrible things and hurt some naive people with all his "experiments." Satanic? Who am I to say...But he for a number of years was a cruel and destructive human being.

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Re Anita Pallenberg,I don't recall that she was heavily influenced by Anger. Nor was she a Satanist. Anita could have had a successful career as an actress but she made wrong choices. And she certainly wasn't a witch leading "innocent Keith" astray, despite rumors to the contrary.

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duke richardson
>>Bob Dylan just steals lines from books and movies with hardly any of his own thoughts or lines anymore. Then again I can't be sure if Mick does that though. But Dylan for sure does.<<

Listen now Zimmy still got it!! even some new outtakes "Marching to the city" is fantastic!!! "Huck's tune" Grrrrreat!! Doom and gloom eh? I dunno.