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Doxa

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Silver Dagger
A real new sound for the Stones. Quirky, very English and upbeat. You can definitely hear the sound of young, mod London here with all its cocky upstart arrogance.

A new wind has been blowing through the streets of the Stones' hometown, which fashion and music wise has become the centre of the rock'n'roll universe, and the song really captures this pop art insouciance.

I love the stop start rhythm and the metallic sheen of Keith's guitar. And then there's that really weird, almost distorted crescendo at the end of each verse which suggests that psychedelia is just a kiss away.

Not sure if it's aimed at Chrissie Shrimpton, Marianne or some young starlet that he was hoping to seduce but lyrically it's a continuation of Jagger's misogny from Aftermath, especially with lines like:

"You need teaching you're a girl
There are things in this world
That need teaching with discretion, my profession"

Once again a wonderful, eye-opening description by Silver Dagger, and putting the song insightfully to context, and I can't but agree with it.

But to me "My Connection" is an intersting case in the sense that despite The Stones being in the very height of their creavity and experentialism, looking for new sounds and, new musical soundcapes, this urge does not always come up with convincing results. In a way the song is a "good" representative of BETWEEN THE BUTTONS over-all, that is lacks certain direction and focus. They are apt to something, really sensing the hectic times they are living within, and want to reflect that, but are not quite content in translating that into convincing, original music yet.

To me it also sounds like they are a bit lost in having all the new possibilites - more tracks etc. - to use in studio, and they can't yet handle all that. Too many new 'tricks' ready to use. Andrew Loog Oldham's talents also start sounding limited, and I suppose one could blame rather a lot a producer for its lacks in focus.

I have always thought that playing with those "sion"/"tion" ending words in rhiming is some kind of sign of "dylanism", typical to times (I recall once someone talking about how that was almost a fashion at the time to sound lyricwise "cool", which came a bit corny. Didn't Paul Simon even made a parody song of that style?)

- Doxa

Really great to hear you're back Doxa. Send me an email.

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Doxa

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Silver Dagger
A real new sound for the Stones. Quirky, very English and upbeat. You can definitely hear the sound of young, mod London here with all its cocky upstart arrogance.

A new wind has been blowing through the streets of the Stones' hometown, which fashion and music wise has become the centre of the rock'n'roll universe, and the song really captures this pop art insouciance.

I love the stop start rhythm and the metallic sheen of Keith's guitar. And then there's that really weird, almost distorted crescendo at the end of each verse which suggests that psychedelia is just a kiss away.

Not sure if it's aimed at Chrissie Shrimpton, Marianne or some young starlet that he was hoping to seduce but lyrically it's a continuation of Jagger's misogny from Aftermath, especially with lines like:

"You need teaching you're a girl
There are things in this world
That need teaching with discretion, my profession"

Once again a wonderful, eye-opening description by Silver Dagger, and putting the song insightfully to context, and I can't but agree with it.

But to me "My Connection" is an intersting case in the sense that despite The Stones being in the very height of their creavity and experentialism, looking for new sounds and, new musical soundcapes, this urge does not always come up with convincing results. In a way the song is a "good" representative of BETWEEN THE BUTTONS over-all, that is lacks certain direction and focus. They are apt to something, really sensing the hectic times they are living within, and want to reflect that, but are not quite content in translating that into convincing, original music yet.

To me it also sounds like they are a bit lost in having all the new possibilites - more tracks etc. - to use in studio, and they can't yet handle all that. Too many new 'tricks' ready to use. Andrew Loog Oldham's talents also start sounding limited, and I suppose one could blame rather a lot a producer for its lacks in focus.

I have always thought that playing with those "sion"/"tion" ending words in rhiming is some kind of sign of "dylanism", typical to times (I recall once someone talking about how that was almost a fashion at the time to sound lyricwise "cool", which came a bit corny. Didn't Paul Simon even made a parody song of that style?)

- Doxa

Definitely spot on Doxa in that the song has the blueprint for the Between The Buttons' sound which I'd describe as quirky. The album in general doesn't owe much to the blues or African-American music at all. It's more a hotchpotch of European styles - vaudeville, French chanson, nascent psychedelia, and proto rock.

We would have to wait nearly another 2 years before the band would revisit their American roots albeit this time tapping the rich vein of southern inspired music such as country, country blues, and even Appalachian folk.

BTB as an album is a place of fresh air to me. It's the album I turn to when I've had my Stones-fix on rock'n'roll, blues, country and soul.

It's far from perfect, though. The songs are weirdly recorded, and some of them are over-doctored as well. Take a song like All Sold Out. IMO, it had every chance of becoming a classic. Instead, they produced the power out of it.

Still, an album I love dearly, even though My Obsession isn't among my favourites.

Songs like Back Street Girl, Something Happened, Connection, All Sold Out (cousin of Citadel?) and Yesterday's Paper are really good, imo.

EDIT: PS: I think Mick once said that they overdubbed this album too much, and that it went back and forth London/LA too many times, or something...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-13 14:16 by DandelionPowderman.

I have a very strange relationship with Between the buttons (and Satanic).

The stones have not done two albums in a row that are similar, but these are truly WAY different from the others that came before and after.

Of course I wouldn't own the album if it wasn't a Stones album.

I often read here that it is a work of its times, but I truly know nothing of it's musical context and possible influences.

Yet, I truly think that it is a great and powerful work.

Very well done. And, I have to disagree with Doxa here, also very well focused. It expresses a mood, it is the exact representation in music of Mankowitz's great great cover.

My Obsession is an essential part of this album. Clearly an album track: with the stop and go structure it could never have been a single. But what a track!

C

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Silver Dagger

Definitely spot on Doxa in that the song has the blueprint for the Between The Buttons' sound which I'd describe as quirky. The album in general doesn't owe much to the blues or African-American music at all. It's more a hotchpotch of European styles - vaudeville, French chanson, nascent psychedelia, and proto rock.

We would have to wait nearly another 2 years before the band would revisit their American roots albeit this time tapping the rich vein of southern inspired music such as country, country blues, and even Appalachian folk.

It is exactly for those reasons - being so untypical - why BETWEEN THE BUTTONS is such an interesting album to listen now in hindsight. It is a work in progress, and it catches the band in unique moment in their career. I think being so innovative, experimental and dary it still has a certain charm even today, even though it has a certain "season" flavor in it, and is not proably the best album to represent those times. Even though I think it does not quite achieve its intented goals, it is the whole approach - the open-mindness - in the album I find so fascinating. Even the new ideas are sometimes more like a miss than a hit, it doesn't matter. I also think that every step the Stones were doing was a necessary step to do at the time; they were learning all the time, and some of the experience would benefit them in future. (For example, like I have argued in the past, when The Stones were doing their blues rock/americana masterpieces, some of unique touch they added to those things, for example in EXILE, derive from their free-going, groovie Swingin' London days, to be heard so fresh in BETWEEN THE BUTTONS)

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-13 14:49 by Doxa.

Between The Buttons is an album I used to enjoy tremendously. It's full of quirky pop numbers and, as others have pointed out, really is of a certain time and place. I always preferred it to Aftermath. However, as my taste in Stones music evolved - at first, I was solely engrossed by what my father owned and liked - my interest and liking of this period in music waned a little. I gave it a spin recently, and although I found a new appreciation for the beautiful Backstreet Girl, this album - and others from this era: Something Else, Sergeant Pepper, etc - will always be secondary to what I now appreciate and enjoy more: Beggars, Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers, Exile... and so forth. The music of late 1966 - early 1967 has dated very much to my ears.

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wandering spirit
in my mind just an "ok" track on BTB, none of its highlights, and none of it lowpoints....

+1

i like the 'ewwwwww baby' pianner bit best

"To me it also sounds like they are a bit lost in having all the new possibilites - more tracks etc"

For the August 1966 Between The Buttons sessions at RCA they worked with 4 track same as they did for all of their previous RCA sessions. The sessions at Olympic Studios in November - December 1966 was also 4 track.

Can anyone shed any light as to why Jagger supposedly dislikes Between The Buttons so much? Is it too jolly and English for him? Perhaps he feels it's dated?

Doxa, I am glad you are back
Missed your input

greetings from holland

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michel
Doxa, I am glad you are back
Missed your input

greetings from holland

Indeed., welcome back!

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Big Al
Can anyone shed any light as to why Jagger supposedly dislikes Between The Buttons so much? Is it too jolly and English for him? Perhaps he feels it's dated?

Uh, sure ... because Between the Buttons sucks.

Drew

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drewmaster

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Big Al
Can anyone shed any light as to why Jagger supposedly dislikes Between The Buttons so much? Is it too jolly and English for him? Perhaps he feels it's dated?

Uh, sure ... because Between the Buttons sucks.

Drew

this hurts

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His Majesty
"To me it also sounds like they are a bit lost in having all the new possibilites - more tracks etc"

For the August 1966 Between The Buttons sessions at RCA they worked with 4 track same as they did for all of their previous RCA sessions. The sessions at Olympic Studios in November - December 1966 was also 4 track.

Thanks for getting that right. I guess it was more to do with other new technological possibilities, or just just "to fool around" with sounds, and use some more time in studio than earlier. I also recall some quote DandelionPowderman mentioned above about too much over-dubbing.

- Doxa

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Big Al
Can anyone shed any light as to why Jagger supposedly dislikes Between The Buttons so much? Is it too jolly and English for him? Perhaps he feels it's dated?

If my memory serves me right, Jagger's dislike for the album was already manifested in 1968 ROLLIG STONE interview (where he already claimed not to remember much of doing it or its songs). There had been so happened within a year, and by then - among others, the Stones were back in the artistic peak with "Jumpin' Jack Flash" and BEGGARS BANQUET - that BETWEEN THE BUTTONS sounded almost like belonging to another era already then. I mean, there is a guy who just wrote "Sympathy For The Devil" - what would "Yesterday's Papers" sounded like compared to it? I guess he might like to forget doing the latter... (and he wasn't too proud of SATANIC MAJESTIES either..)

I think there also other reasons something to do with the rapid change of the whole music scene. After SGT. PEPPER and ARE YOU EXPRIENCED, etc. ETWEEN HE BUTTONS was just a collection of pop songs, and it lacked the 'seriousness' the whole music scene had turned on (be it artistic, technical or whatever). Of course, perhaps the album was not so good for his taste to begin with (and it was the last one with under the direction of Oldham, and seemingly their co-work wasn't any longer under so happy stars as before). With The Stones - as with the Beatles - the 'seriousness' started to mean that they would spend as much time in studio as needed to have the wished artistic results. BETWEEN THE BUTTONS sessions for the last ones done in 'old Oldhamian method', the songs constructed rather quickly in studio, and the albums were picked from the differents sessions. SATANIC MAJESTIES was their first "real" album in that sense that they had certain kind of artistic wholeness in mind when doing that one. And besides, during the hectic 60's, "who wants yesterday's papers, who wants yesterday's album..."

I guess Jagger never had a reason to update his views, so his stance has seemed to remain stable ever since (like it had been towards to all pre-JFF stuff for years to come). BETWEEN THE BUTTONS was "out of time" in 1968 and, for him, forever. But I guess Jagger's stance doesn't much vary of the majority of the Stones fans, right?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-14 10:07 by Doxa.

And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

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Green Lady
- and when they'd finished My Obsession they used all the leftovers for Connection...

...or was it the other way around?

Close but no cigar, my dear! ALO locked Mick in one room and Keith in another, gave them each a word to generate rhymes with
Keith got connection, Mick got obsession, and the rest is history :E

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

They all sound dated and of their time.

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His Majesty

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

They all sound dated and of their time.

Well I guess you could say that about anything. What I mean is that you put on a classic Stones album like Exile or Let It Bleed and it still has the power to move a younger audience...if they like rock music.

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Silver Dagger

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His Majesty

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

They all sound dated and of their time.

Well I guess you could say that about anything. What I mean is that you put on a classic Stones album like Exile or Let It Bleed and it still has the power to move a younger audience...if they like rock music.

Interestingly, if we compare to their biggest rivals at the time, The Beatles output from that "curious time" seemingly still has a more universal appeal, which might attract even the younger audience today. Even though The Stones were a huge force in pop back at the day, musically the year 1967 didn't turned out be their most memorable one. I think BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and SATANIC MAJESTIES sound dated in a way The Beatles stuff does not (even though I think the biggest hype over SGT. PEPPER has calmed a bit down).

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-14 12:48 by Doxa.

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Silver Dagger

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His Majesty

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

They all sound dated and of their time.

Well I guess you could say that about anything. What I mean is that you put on a classic Stones album like Exile or Let It Bleed and it still has the power to move a younger audience...if they like rock music.

Their experimental pop music also continues to move young, middle aged and old people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-14 13:11 by His Majesty.

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Doxa

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Silver Dagger

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His Majesty

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

They all sound dated and of their time.

Well I guess you could say that about anything. What I mean is that you put on a classic Stones album like Exile or Let It Bleed and it still has the power to move a younger audience...if they like rock music.

Interestingly, if we compare to their biggest rivals at the time, The Beatles output from that "curious time" seemingly still has a more universal appeal, which might attract even the younger audience today. Even though The Stones were a huge force in pop back at the day, musically the year 1967 didn't turned out be their most memorable one. I think BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and SATANIC MAJESTIES sound dated in a way The Beatles stuff does not (even though I think the biggest hype over SGT. PEPPER has calmed a bit down).

- Doxa

Possibly because The Beatles' songs at this time were better. Revolver and Sgt Pepper had far stronger and more memorable songs than Between The Buttons and Satanic.

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Silver Dagger

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

I think there's stuff on Dirty Work that sounds the most dated.

between the buttons and satanic majesties are very 60's pop but but hold up much better.

Really nice to see youre back Doxa.

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa

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Silver Dagger

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His Majesty

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

They all sound dated and of their time.

Well I guess you could say that about anything. What I mean is that you put on a classic Stones album like Exile or Let It Bleed and it still has the power to move a younger audience...if they like rock music.

Interestingly, if we compare to their biggest rivals at the time, The Beatles output from that "curious time" seemingly still has a more universal appeal, which might attract even the younger audience today. Even though The Stones were a huge force in pop back at the day, musically the year 1967 didn't turned out be their most memorable one. I think BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and SATANIC MAJESTIES sound dated in a way The Beatles stuff does not (even though I think the biggest hype over SGT. PEPPER has calmed a bit down).

- Doxa

Possibly because The Beatles' songs at this time were better. Revolver and Sgt Pepper had far stronger and more memorable songs than Between The Buttons and Satanic.

I think it has to do with the fact that young people always seem to become acquainted with the music of the Beatles first, while still children, largely because of the Yellow Submarine movie, whereas The Stones are for adolescence and beyond.

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His Majesty

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa
And to continue a bit... When I say that "Jagger had no reason to update his stance" I mean, he did that with EXILE, right? Had BETWEEN THE BUTTONS turned out to be a hailed 60's masterpiece by rock press, I think he might have had second thoughts some day...

- Doxa

I guess of all the Stones' albums it's Between The Buttons and Satanic which sound the most dated and locked in their own curious time.

They all sound dated and of their time.

Apart possibly from timeless music, to me there is even a distinction between music, having a marked time date origin and giving impressions from that time and place, but with a lasting power beyond its outspring ("of their time" ), and music that a listener might experience as dated, taken to be antiquated.

Who are best to distinguish what is and what is not antiquated, those who received the considered piece of music at its time, or those that did not, but who on the other hand received some other music in their forming years for their musical taste, weighing on their minds, it is not easy to say. In this case anyhow, I belong to the former, even if I pretend to be not that nostalgia bent, quite the contrary. However, even as such, I am not neutral, I am one of the privileged that think of all of the Stones career as counting.

I don't regard any part of the Stones output as dated, not saying that all is as good, where I, again not neutral, think that the first couple of Beatles albums might be somewhat dated. And for instance, the very appealing «She Loves You» is to me nearer to being dated than any song that the Stones have made.

I have to make a somewhat paradoxial statement. BETWEEN THE BUTTONS to me might possibly not be seen as a great album in the way that their '68 – '72 albums can be said to be. At the same time this album has an immediate catching power that is as great as any of their uncontested great albums have. This immediacy to me is a token of quality, when this quality for my subjective ears has not waned after so many years. In this sense I hold BETWEEN THE BUTTONS to be of their best albums on par with their greatest ones. (At another time, I might even say that this album is great, and I normally think of it as, paradoxially, great.) As a matter of taste, if I have to rank AFTERMATH and BETWEEN THE BUTTONS, usually I do no want to, I have to go for the latter, And to me these two albums and THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST and the singles from these years, define a period in the band's existence and a second peak of their career.

The song «My Obsession» considered isolated, in my view, does not belong to the album's best songs, but is good enough to fit in and importantly contributes very well to the balance between songs on this album that I am so fond of, and which always sounds so fresh to me.

I was just driving in Michael, the massive storm that has hit the South US. Wind, rain, night; lotsa water.
I had "My Obsession" instrumental blasting. This has always been one of my favorite Stones songs. 'Buttons" was by far my first album; my only album for a while. that jaggedy stop/start right after the mellifluous "Yesterday's Papers" comes like such a jarring rude alarm clock.
I'm thinking - no one, not even the Beatles, writes something like that. I mean wtf! what is that even?? LOL I can't imagine writing something like that. There is so much energy and noise in the segments, but then they stop it again. And start it up again. Stu is incredible, as is Bill Wyman.
Both those two first songs have great harmonies; something the Stones were never all that good at.

Another thing that hit me: these are instrumental tracks. I am hearing certain parts much better than usually. I don't know if this is because the vocals are just not there, and I am able to catch a glimpse behind the curtain a little better; or if these are actual lower generation mixes, at a time where the vocals havent been done yet, and therefore some parts have not gone lost in the muck of pinging down.

For some unknown reason Brian Wilson loved this song, according to his first aUto-biography.