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DoomandGloom
Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

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Mathijs
strange thing is that there is half a dozen outtakes from the sessions that are lightyears better than the album. Tracks like Strictly Memphis, What Am I Going To Do and Invitation.

Mathijs

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emotionalbarbecue




(from rollingstonesyesterdayspapers.blogspot.com.es one of the best sources in the internet)

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StonesTod

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DoomandGloom
Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

why do you mean "we," kemosabe?

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

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Mathijs

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

No, you confuse some dates and facts. According to just about everybody, including the doorman, Jagger and Richards just hated eachother during the DW sessions. The WWIII really started after Jagger's refusal to tour behind Undercover, released on November 7, 1983, and him starting the demo sessions for his solo album in early March 1984. Keith hated Jagger for that decision. For the DW sessions They wheren't on speaking terms, basically avoiding each other, and when they where together they only had heated arguments. Jagger released She's The Boss in February '85, and never toured behind it. The sessions for DW started in early April 85 in Paris. After the sessions ended in late June, they all went to do different things (Dancing in the Street, Bette Midler, Bob Dylan etc). Overdubbing was late July to half August 1985 in New York, mixing in October 1985 in NY. When it came out Jagger hardly promoted it, and again refused to tour, this time due to Charlie's bad health. Jagger's first and luckily only & last solo tour was in 1988.

Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman
I like many songs on Dirty Work:

Harlem Shuffle
One Hit (To The Body)
Had It With You
Sleep Tonight
Fight
Too Rude

Some of the rockers have Tattoo You-quality, imo.

Not bad at all. Mick wasn't at his peak, but heck you can't always get...

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

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DandelionPowderman
I like many songs on Dirty Work:

Harlem Shuffle
One Hit (To The Body)
Had It With You
Sleep Tonight
Fight
Too Rude

Some of the rockers have Tattoo You-quality, imo.

Not bad at all. Mick wasn't at his peak, but heck you can't always get...

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Mathijs

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

No, you confuse some dates and facts. According to just about everybody, including the doorman, Jagger and Richards just hated eachother during the DW sessions. The WWIII really started after Jagger's refusal to tour behind Undercover, released on November 7, 1983, and him starting the demo sessions for his solo album in early March 1984. Keith hated Jagger for that decision. For the DW sessions They wheren't on speaking terms, basically avoiding each other, and when they where together they only had heated arguments. Jagger released She's The Boss in February '85, and never toured behind it. The sessions for DW started in early April 85 in Paris. After the sessions ended in late June, they all went to do different things (Dancing in the Street, Bette Midler, Bob Dylan etc). Overdubbing was late July to half August 1985 in New York, mixing in October 1985 in NY. When it came out Jagger hardly promoted it, and again refused to tour, this time due to Charlie's bad health. Jagger's first and luckily only & last solo tour was in 1988.

Mathijs

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71Tele
Because Jagger is always looking at current trends, he didn't want to be left out of the whole mid-80s phase of awful music.

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DoomandGloom

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Mathijs

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

No, you confuse some dates and facts. According to just about everybody, including the doorman, Jagger and Richards just hated eachother during the DW sessions. The WWIII really started after Jagger's refusal to tour behind Undercover, released on November 7, 1983, and him starting the demo sessions for his solo album in early March 1984. Keith hated Jagger for that decision. For the DW sessions They wheren't on speaking terms, basically avoiding each other, and when they where together they only had heated arguments. Jagger released She's The Boss in February '85, and never toured behind it. The sessions for DW started in early April 85 in Paris. After the sessions ended in late June, they all went to do different things (Dancing in the Street, Bette Midler, Bob Dylan etc). Overdubbing was late July to half August 1985 in New York, mixing in October 1985 in NY. When it came out Jagger hardly promoted it, and again refused to tour, this time due to Charlie's bad health. Jagger's first and luckily only & last solo tour was in 1988.

Mathijs

Yeah it's easy for me to get mixed up it was long ago, until last week I'd completely forgotten I worked for a week or so on Steel Wheels but I can tell you I never saw any arguments or spite during overdubs and mixing. They never ever talked behind the others back and long sessions show people at their most vulnerable. Jagger's tour was 1988? I was wrong there but I tell you they were never too far from one another in this period. Dancing In The Streets was being mixed and Keith was doing overdubs with Earl Slick upstairs. Mick was amused by the Dylan fiasco at Live Aide, still they both stayed in NY, close to one another. They love one another, Keith gets too high and says stuff but all The Stones are grateful to Mick for keeping the money flowing. He is very wise with stuff like that, where would Keith be without that?

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sweet neo con

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71Tele
Because Jagger is always looking at current trends, he didn't want to be left out of the whole mid-80s phase of awful music.

valid....but it may be the same motivation (trends) that produced albums that we deem to be masterpieces. In his mind, he may have been following a trend (or trying to stay one step ahead of one) when making Beggars Banquet & Some Girls just as he was following a trend for those deemed to be awful... like Their Satanic Majesties or Dirty Work.

personally....there are things I like on every Stones album even TSMR & DW.

when you think about an artist/musician in a room...creating......whether it's Sympathy for the Devil or Back to Zero.....there's no guarantees that it's something that is going to hit a positive or negative chord with the intended audience. In the studio
the only feedback is from fellow bandmembers, producers and ass-kissers. I think there's a lot of finger-crossing.

Sometimes an artists swings and misses......that doesn't always mean that the effort was less.

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scottkeef
I think Dirty Work beats the pants off Undecover (bloody awful,that one)...OK...1,2,3..GO!

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DoomandGloom

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Mathijs

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

No, you confuse some dates and facts. According to just about everybody, including the doorman, Jagger and Richards just hated eachother during the DW sessions. The WWIII really started after Jagger's refusal to tour behind Undercover, released on November 7, 1983, and him starting the demo sessions for his solo album in early March 1984. Keith hated Jagger for that decision. For the DW sessions They wheren't on speaking terms, basically avoiding each other, and when they where together they only had heated arguments. Jagger released She's The Boss in February '85, and never toured behind it. The sessions for DW started in early April 85 in Paris. After the sessions ended in late June, they all went to do different things (Dancing in the Street, Bette Midler, Bob Dylan etc). Overdubbing was late July to half August 1985 in New York, mixing in October 1985 in NY. When it came out Jagger hardly promoted it, and again refused to tour, this time due to Charlie's bad health. Jagger's first and luckily only & last solo tour was in 1988.

Mathijs

Yeah it's easy for me to get mixed up it was long ago but I can tell you I never saw any arguments or spite during overdubs and mixing. They never ever talked behind the others back either. Jagger's tour was 1988? I was wrong there but I tell you they were never too far from one another in this period. Dancing In The Streets was being mixed and Keith was doing overdubs with Earl Slick upstairs. Mick was amused by the Dylan fiasco at Live Aide, still they both stayed in NY, close to one another. They love one another, Keith gets too high and says stuff but all The Stones are grateful to Mick for keeping the money flowing. He is very wise with stuff like that, where would Keith be without that?

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gotdablouse
They never planned to tour behind UC, there was a veeerrryyy vague rumour that got printed in some magazine that they would cook something up to tour in 1984 but who knows were that came from. Anyway it was never ever brought up by Keith AFAIK. In fact when DW came out he was like, "yeah UC is the best we could do at the time"...as everyone in the press was ranting and raving about how great DW was!

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GasLightStreet

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gotdablouse
They never planned to tour behind UC, there was a veeerrryyy vague rumour that got printed in some magazine that they would cook something up to tour in 1984 but who knows were that came from. Anyway it was never ever brought up by Keith AFAIK. In fact when DW came out he was like, "yeah UC is the best we could do at the time"...as everyone in the press was ranting and raving about how great DW was!

Shows you what Keith knew - he thought Dirty Work was better than Undercover? Ha ha. No gold rings on that one.

Wasn't there some stirring about touring behind Rewind? That they actually had something laid out but then, of course, Mick decided to go solo? I remember reading that somewhere.

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DoomandGloom

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Mathijs

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

No, you confuse some dates and facts. According to just about everybody, including the doorman, Jagger and Richards just hated eachother during the DW sessions. The WWIII really started after Jagger's refusal to tour behind Undercover, released on November 7, 1983, and him starting the demo sessions for his solo album in early March 1984. Keith hated Jagger for that decision. For the DW sessions They wheren't on speaking terms, basically avoiding each other, and when they where together they only had heated arguments. Jagger released She's The Boss in February '85, and never toured behind it. The sessions for DW started in early April 85 in Paris. After the sessions ended in late June, they all went to do different things (Dancing in the Street, Bette Midler, Bob Dylan etc). Overdubbing was late July to half August 1985 in New York, mixing in October 1985 in NY. When it came out Jagger hardly promoted it, and again refused to tour, this time due to Charlie's bad health. Jagger's first and luckily only & last solo tour was in 1988.

Mathijs

Yeah it's easy for me to get mixed up it was long ago but I can tell you I never saw any arguments or spite during overdubs and mixing. They never ever talked behind the others back either. Jagger's tour was 1988? I was wrong there but I tell you they were never too far from one another in this period. Dancing In The Streets was being mixed and Keith was doing overdubs with Earl Slick upstairs. Mick was amused by the Dylan fiasco at Live Aide, still they both stayed in NY, close to one another. They love one another, Keith gets too high and says stuff but all The Stones are grateful to Mick for keeping the money flowing. He is very wise with stuff like that, where would Keith be without that?

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sweet neo con

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GasLightStreet

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gotdablouse
They never planned to tour behind UC, there was a veeerrryyy vague rumour that got printed in some magazine that they would cook something up to tour in 1984 but who knows were that came from. Anyway it was never ever brought up by Keith AFAIK. In fact when DW came out he was like, "yeah UC is the best we could do at the time"...as everyone in the press was ranting and raving about how great DW was!

Shows you what Keith knew - he thought Dirty Work was better than Undercover? Ha ha. No gold rings on that one.

Wasn't there some stirring about touring behind Rewind? That they actually had something laid out but then, of course, Mick decided to go solo? I remember reading that somewhere.

who knows for sure...keith was always saying (or implying) that he would tour whenever mick agreed.

and i'm sure keith thought dw was better because (as stated) mick didn't bring much material to dw....so it was keith & ronnie's baby.

also...re: stones getting along together....let's not forget to factor in the firsthand knowledge of Bill German.

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GasLightStreet

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sweet neo con

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GasLightStreet

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gotdablouse
They never planned to tour behind UC, there was a veeerrryyy vague rumour that got printed in some magazine that they would cook something up to tour in 1984 but who knows were that came from. Anyway it was never ever brought up by Keith AFAIK. In fact when DW came out he was like, "yeah UC is the best we could do at the time"...as everyone in the press was ranting and raving about how great DW was!

Shows you what Keith knew - he thought Dirty Work was better than Undercover? Ha ha. No gold rings on that one.

Wasn't there some stirring about touring behind Rewind? That they actually had something laid out but then, of course, Mick decided to go solo? I remember reading that somewhere.

who knows for sure...keith was always saying (or implying) that he would tour whenever mick agreed.

and i'm sure keith thought dw was better because (as stated) mick didn't bring much material to dw....so it was keith & ronnie's baby.

also...re: stones getting along together....let's not forget to factor in the firsthand knowledge of Bill German.

Of course Keith prattled about how good it was. That was the chest thump at that time, especially since he was 'behind the controls'. Is Dirty Work the only album to have had only two songs performed live from it? Or is it tied with TSMR?

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gotdablouse

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DoomandGloom

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Mathijs

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DoomandGloom
My two cents. Keith and Mick seemed to be getting on fine on DW. The hiatus the band took may have been more about Charlie's recovery than a feud. Jagger made "Boss" and did a big tour behind it while the Winos did the same, maybe because Watts was not up to working. One thing is certain when Keith's album came out everyone was blown away by the simple production styled a tiny bit like Exile. Still they made Steel Wheels next which was a massive production, we're still waiting for the stripped down version to re-appear from the studio. Too bad they don't have the confidence in themselves that we have.

No, you confuse some dates and facts. According to just about everybody, including the doorman, Jagger and Richards just hated eachother during the DW sessions. The WWIII really started after Jagger's refusal to tour behind Undercover, released on November 7, 1983, and him starting the demo sessions for his solo album in early March 1984. Keith hated Jagger for that decision. For the DW sessions They wheren't on speaking terms, basically avoiding each other, and when they where together they only had heated arguments. Jagger released She's The Boss in February '85, and never toured behind it. The sessions for DW started in early April 85 in Paris. After the sessions ended in late June, they all went to do different things (Dancing in the Street, Bette Midler, Bob Dylan etc). Overdubbing was late July to half August 1985 in New York, mixing in October 1985 in NY. When it came out Jagger hardly promoted it, and again refused to tour, this time due to Charlie's bad health. Jagger's first and luckily only & last solo tour was in 1988.

Mathijs

Yeah it's easy for me to get mixed up it was long ago but I can tell you I never saw any arguments or spite during overdubs and mixing. They never ever talked behind the others back either. Jagger's tour was 1988? I was wrong there but I tell you they were never too far from one another in this period. Dancing In The Streets was being mixed and Keith was doing overdubs with Earl Slick upstairs. Mick was amused by the Dylan fiasco at Live Aide, still they both stayed in NY, close to one another. They love one another, Keith gets too high and says stuff but all The Stones are grateful to Mick for keeping the money flowing. He is very wise with stuff like that, where would Keith be without that?

Yeah a lot of stuff was written on the DW sessions that is simply incorrect and I'm surprised Mathijs is all mixed up on this, let's see :

- They never planned to tour behind UC, there was a veeerrryyy vague rumour that got printed in some magazine that they would cook something up to tour in 1984 but who knows were that came from. Anyway it was never ever brought up by Keith AFAIK. In fact when DW came out he was like, "yeah UC is the best we could do at the time"...as everyone in the press was ranting and raving about how great DW was!

- They did in fact get along rather well during the DW sessions as they all (including Mick) went for dinner together at the "Val d'Isere" restaurant across from the Warwick Hotel pretty much each night and then proceeded to Boulogne. I have first hand reports of that from fans who actually had dinner in the same restaurant and more or less befriended them to the point where they were invited inside the studios and made a little video that was hand delivered to Ronnie who then made promises he didn't keep, but that's another story

- What annoyed Keith is that Mick brought little material to the sessions and did a lot of promo work for STB, there were no recording sessions for PC at anytime during the DW project. His next solo work was for the Ruthless People soundtrack and that single bombed big time.

Now that a few misconceptions have been cleared out I will refer anyone who wants to dig deeper to this most excellent thread with some stellar posts by Rocky Dijon who's analysis of the 83 to 89 period is stunning even to someone like me who lived though it and followed it very closely -> [www.iorr.org] post dated "Date: May 29, 2012 19:46"

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DoomandGloom
Charlie was not at his best, there were other drummers who played.

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dcba

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DoomandGloom
Charlie was not at his best, there were other drummers who played.

D&G Can you confirm Anton Fig sat on the stool?