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Edith Grove

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EddieByword
That's not what I heard from a couple of Texans I knew, they said Texas was the real country and all the others were just cowardly umbrella states

Have you been talking to StonesTod ?

.....I was waiting for that from someone.....

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, exactly wrong. The EU is not like the US. If it were it would not have dozens of countries with the same currency but different fiscal policy, tax structures, etc. A common market is one thing, a common currency quite another. A state government in the US cannot override the federal government regarding responsibilities that are assigned to the federal government. The EU does not have that system. It has a bunch of agreements (treaties) between sovereign countries - that and a lot of wishful thinking.

I get the feeling mathijs might be a bit tongue in cheek,
about the other though, Brussels does have responsiblities assigned to it like your Federal system (by agreement) and does overule Member states (As in Head of State) including Britain much to the chagrin of London quite often........even though all are signed up they don't always like the results, esp. on Human rights, (here anyway)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-07 03:39 by EddieByword.

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Mathijs

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

Not quite. The US has two languages, while the EU has two dozen.

But then again, in 20 years the primary language in the EU will probably all be speaking Arabic, so maybe.



How did we get on this topic anyway?

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EddieByword

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stonehearted

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EddieByword

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stonehearted

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, the US is a single country and the EU is a collection of countries. States are divisions within a country, but not countries unto themselves.

That's not what I heard from a couple of Texans I knew, they said Texas was the real country and all the others were just cowardly umbrella states

They probably think that because Texas, at 773 miles [1,244 km] wide by 790 miles [1,270 km] long, is so big it must feel like a country unto itself. Then again, there was a movement in the state of Vermont some years back expressing the desire for the state to secede from the union.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vermont_Republic

Just so long as they keep a free internet, I don't care what the states do.

I think they were just kidding around...........Was that Vermont wanted Texas out?
I did have a dream in 1998 that one of the States would declare independance..this year 2013.

No, sorry, it was that members of this movement wanted Vermont to return to independent status as a republic unto itself.

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stonehearted

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EddieByword

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stonehearted

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EddieByword

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stonehearted

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, the US is a single country and the EU is a collection of countries. States are divisions within a country, but not countries unto themselves.

That's not what I heard from a couple of Texans I knew, they said Texas was the real country and all the others were just cowardly umbrella states

They probably think that because Texas, at 773 miles [1,244 km] wide by 790 miles [1,270 km] long, is so big it must feel like a country unto itself. Then again, there was a movement in the state of Vermont some years back expressing the desire for the state to secede from the union.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vermont_Republic

Just so long as they keep a free internet, I don't care what the states do.

I think they were just kidding around...........Was that Vermont wanted Texas out?
I did have a dream in 1998 that one of the States would declare independance..this year 2013.

No, sorry, it was that members of this movement wanted Vermont to return to independent status as a republic unto itself.

Lol........OK thanks, I just had images of loads of Amish or Pilgrims or the like holding mass rallies in Montpelier chanting "Get Texas out! Get Texas out!"

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EddieByword

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, exactly wrong. The EU is not like the US. If it were it would not have dozens of countries with the same currency but different fiscal policy, tax structures, etc. A common market is one thing, a common currency quite another. A state government in the US cannot override the federal government regarding responsibilities that are assigned to the federal government. The EU does not have that system. It has a bunch of agreements (treaties) between sovereign countries - that and a lot of wishful thinking.

I get the feeling mathijs might be a bit tongue in cheek,
about the other though, Brussels does have responsiblities assigned to it like your Federal system (by agreement) and does overule Member states (As in Head of State) including Britain much to the chagrin of London quite often........even though all are signed up they don't always like the results, esp. on Human rights, (here anyway)

Thought it might be so with Mathijs...But the EU is more like a Confederation than a federation - the member states have only relinquished certain things to Brussels. In the pre-EU days if Greece got into debt trouble they could devalue the drachma against other currencies. Now Greece (or another country) can run their economy into the ground and there isn't much the Germans or French can do about it. My point was a common currency without a central bank and unified monetary policy has never been tried, and is probably doomed to failure. Its initiation was more about politics and wishful thinking than sound economics. OK, I will add the required "in my opinion". But the Euroskeptics in the UK are looking pretty good right now.

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71Tele

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EddieByword

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, exactly wrong. The EU is not like the US. If it were it would not have dozens of countries with the same currency but different fiscal policy, tax structures, etc. A common market is one thing, a common currency quite another. A state government in the US cannot override the federal government regarding responsibilities that are assigned to the federal government. The EU does not have that system. It has a bunch of agreements (treaties) between sovereign countries - that and a lot of wishful thinking.

I get the feeling mathijs might be a bit tongue in cheek,
about the other though, Brussels does have responsiblities assigned to it like your Federal system (by agreement) and does overule Member states (As in Head of State) including Britain much to the chagrin of London quite often........even though all are signed up they don't always like the results, esp. on Human rights, (here anyway)

Thought it might be so with Mathijs...But the EU is more like a Confederation than a federation - the member states have only relinquished certain things to Brussels. In the pre-EU days if Greece got into debt trouble they could devalue the drachma against other currencies. Now Greece (or another country) can run their economy into the ground and there isn't much the Germans or French can do about it. My point was a common currency without a central bank and unified monetary policy has never been tried, and is probably doomed to failure. Its initiation was more about politics and wishful thinking than sound economics. OK, I will add the required "in my opinion". But the Euroskeptics in the UK are looking pretty good right now.

Right, yeah, no need for imo (for me anyway)......it's interesting..what you say about the lack of a central bank.
One things confusing here still though, I don't know the difference between a confederation and a federation....but the thing you said after that, I've highlighted, isn't that the same as in the States though ie. you have indivdual and different State laws on weed , marriage to name a couple.......isn't that bit the same as here in Europe? Brussels has the last word on some things like Washington and then other stuff is left to the individual contries or as in your case, States...........

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EddieByword

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71Tele

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EddieByword

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, exactly wrong. The EU is not like the US. If it were it would not have dozens of countries with the same currency but different fiscal policy, tax structures, etc. A common market is one thing, a common currency quite another. A state government in the US cannot override the federal government regarding responsibilities that are assigned to the federal government. The EU does not have that system. It has a bunch of agreements (treaties) between sovereign countries - that and a lot of wishful thinking.

I get the feeling mathijs might be a bit tongue in cheek,
about the other though, Brussels does have responsiblities assigned to it like your Federal system (by agreement) and does overule Member states (As in Head of State) including Britain much to the chagrin of London quite often........even though all are signed up they don't always like the results, esp. on Human rights, (here anyway)

Thought it might be so with Mathijs...But the EU is more like a Confederation than a federation - the member states have only relinquished certain things to Brussels. In the pre-EU days if Greece got into debt trouble they could devalue the drachma against other currencies. Now Greece (or another country) can run their economy into the ground and there isn't much the Germans or French can do about it. My point was a common currency without a central bank and unified monetary policy has never been tried, and is probably doomed to failure. Its initiation was more about politics and wishful thinking than sound economics. OK, I will add the required "in my opinion". But the Euroskeptics in the UK are looking pretty good right now.

Right, yeah, no need for imo (for me anyway)......it's interesting..what you say about the lack of a central bank.
One things confusing here still though, I don't know the difference between a confederation and a federation....but the thing you said after that, I've highlighted, isn't that the same as in the States though ie. you have indivdual and different State laws on weed , marriage to name a couple.......isn't that bit the same as here in Europe? Brussels has the last word on some things like Washington and then other stuff is left to the individual contries or as in your case, States...........

The basic difference is that in a federation the federal government has supremacy, and in a confederation the individual members do. The initial US constitution was called The Articles Of Confederation. It was a disaster. States would levy tariffs against imports from other states. The central government was very weak. Although certain powers have been granted to Brussels there is no president or prime minister of "Europe", and the sovereignties of the individual member nations are supreme with the exception of those powers delegated to Brussels. The US has a unified national economy (though there are certainly regional variations) while the EU has two dozen national economies - some much stronger than others - who share a common currency. Big difference between the EU and the US unless the EU becomes truly a "United States Of Europe".

well nobody's got any money now ,no matter what name's on the actual notes,thanks to the greedy bankers.
Oh yes and The Rolling Stones after those prices for the end of year bash.

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71Tele
The basic difference is that in a federation the federal government has supremacy, and in a confederation the individual members do. The initial US constitution was called The Articles Of Confederation. It was a disaster. States would levy tariffs against imports from other states. The central government was very weak. Although certain powers have been granted to Brussels there is no president or prime minister of "Europe", and the sovereignties of the individual member nations are supreme with the exception of those powers delegated to Brussels. The US has a unified national economy (though there are certainly regional variations) while the EU has two dozen national economies - some much stronger than others - who share a common currency. Big difference between the EU and the US unless the EU becomes truly a "United States Of Europe".

Cheers Tele, interesting, I can see that would be very problematic in terms of creating a single National identity......sure

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71Tele

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EddieByword

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, exactly wrong. The EU is not like the US. If it were it would not have dozens of countries with the same currency but different fiscal policy, tax structures, etc. A common market is one thing, a common currency quite another. A state government in the US cannot override the federal government regarding responsibilities that are assigned to the federal government. The EU does not have that system. It has a bunch of agreements (treaties) between sovereign countries - that and a lot of wishful thinking.

I get the feeling mathijs might be a bit tongue in cheek,
about the other though, Brussels does have responsiblities assigned to it like your Federal system (by agreement) and does overule Member states (As in Head of State) including Britain much to the chagrin of London quite often........even though all are signed up they don't always like the results, esp. on Human rights, (here anyway)

Thought it might be so with Mathijs...But the EU is more like a Confederation than a federation - the member states have only relinquished certain things to Brussels. In the pre-EU days if Greece got into debt trouble they could devalue the drachma against other currencies. Now Greece (or another country) can run their economy into the ground and there isn't much the Germans or French can do about it. My point was a common currency without a central bank and unified monetary policy has never been tried, and is probably doomed to failure. Its initiation was more about politics and wishful thinking than sound economics. OK, I will add the required "in my opinion". But the Euroskeptics in the UK are looking pretty good right now.

There’s less differences than you would expect though. The status of each country of the EU is not much different to the status of say California in the U.S. , which political system is that of a republic, which its own economy, checks and balances, laws and military force. For the EU on first glance it looks like member states have only relinquished certain things to Brussels, but in the end all local laws and budgets must be approved by Brussels, and Brussels on many occasions overrules member states. For example, each country has it’s own budget, but agreed is that this budget cannot have more than 3% deficit. If you have more, you will be fined, or in the case of Greece, you will be overruled and forced to lower the deficit to less than 3%. The law system in each member state is independent, but can in any and all cases be overruled by EU law. The tax systems in each member state are more and more alike, and can be overruled by EU law.

What is now discussed is to have a political union in that there will be a secretary of state, of finance etc., and even though these positions are not created yet, they exist as such: Rompuy acts as the President of the EU, Rehn acts as the secretary of finance.

For my own information: how dependent is the financial budget in California, and can the President interfere in this budget if he wants? Can he overrule it?

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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EddieByword

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
You can't have a monetary union without a political union.

Don't all states of America have the dollar?

Mathijs

The different states of the U.S. do not have political sovereignty that supersedes the federal government, or radically different economies or work ethics or tax cultures.

So the EU basically is the same as the US.

Mathijs

No, exactly wrong. The EU is not like the US. If it were it would not have dozens of countries with the same currency but different fiscal policy, tax structures, etc. A common market is one thing, a common currency quite another. A state government in the US cannot override the federal government regarding responsibilities that are assigned to the federal government. The EU does not have that system. It has a bunch of agreements (treaties) between sovereign countries - that and a lot of wishful thinking.

I get the feeling mathijs might be a bit tongue in cheek,
about the other though, Brussels does have responsiblities assigned to it like your Federal system (by agreement) and does overule Member states (As in Head of State) including Britain much to the chagrin of London quite often........even though all are signed up they don't always like the results, esp. on Human rights, (here anyway)

Thought it might be so with Mathijs...But the EU is more like a Confederation than a federation - the member states have only relinquished certain things to Brussels. In the pre-EU days if Greece got into debt trouble they could devalue the drachma against other currencies. Now Greece (or another country) can run their economy into the ground and there isn't much the Germans or French can do about it. My point was a common currency without a central bank and unified monetary policy has never been tried, and is probably doomed to failure. Its initiation was more about politics and wishful thinking than sound economics. OK, I will add the required "in my opinion". But the Euroskeptics in the UK are looking pretty good right now.

There’s less differences than you would expect though. The status of each country of the EU is not much different to the status of say California in the U.S. , which political system is that of a republic, which its own economy, checks and balances, laws and military force. For the EU on first glance it looks like member states have only relinquished certain things to Brussels, but in the end all local laws and budgets must be approved by Brussels, and Brussels on many occasions overrules member states. For example, each country has it’s own budget, but agreed is that this budget cannot have more than 3% deficit. If you have more, you will be fined, or in the case of Greece, you will be overruled and forced to lower the deficit to less than 3%. The law system in each member state is independent, but can in any and all cases be overruled by EU law. The tax systems in each member state are more and more alike, and can be overruled by EU law.

What is now discussed is to have a political union in that there will be a secretary of state, of finance etc., and even though these positions are not created yet, they exist as such: Rompuy acts as the President of the EU, Rehn acts as the secretary of finance.

For my own information: how dependent is the financial budget in California, and can the President interfere in this budget if he wants? Can he overrule it?

Mathijs

Interesting Mathijs...In the US the state constitutions must conform the the federal one. i.e. you can't have a governor in one state, a prime minister and parliament in another, and a king in another. But after that, no the president or US Congress cannot interfere in state matters. But more to the point, we don't have 50 state governments setting sometimes contradictory monetary policy. Interstate commerce is regulated by the federal government, and we have the Federal Reserve setting US monetary policy. We couldn't have the disparity in economies like Europe has between Germany and Greece.

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jpasc95
the Euro is a good idea !
It had to be done to compete with strong currencies like Dollar and Yen. Even the Germans finally admitted it.

This ready-made "thought" has no actual economic sense - especially as investors are all fleeing your magical Euro to buy Swiss Francs (oh, so a tiny country like Switzerland or Singapore or Norway can live without the euro and meet a very strong demand; much stronger than for the euro ??). All French exporters have been killed by the euro as this currency is to strong. Airbus said it and that's why they moved their production to $-zone because Gallois said they were loosing billions.

All Europeans countries have seen their commercial balance go negative as soon as the switch to the euro was made, except Germany which indeed benefit from it (because all the other pay the price). The funny thing is that, the more the euro is causing damages to European countries, the more the Europeists will tell you "you see, we need more Euro" - which is a religious behavior, not a rational one.

The Euro is an economic non-sense which will explode (as did all common currencies in history). This Nobel Prize said this in 2002:

'I think the euro is in its honeymoon phase. I hope it succeeds, but I have very low expectations for it. I think that differences are going to accumulate among the various countries and that non-synchronous shocks are going to affect them. Right now, Ireland is a very different state; it needs a very different monetary policy from that of Spain or Italy. On purely theoretical grounds, it’s hard to believe that it’s going to be a stable system for a long time. …

If we look back at recent history, they’ve tried in the past to have rigid exchange rates, and each time it has broken down. 1992, 1993, you had the crises. Before that, Europe had the snake, and then it broke down into something else. So the verdict isn’t in on the euro. It’s only a year old. Give it time to develop its troubles.'

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Mathijs
There’s less differences than you would expect though. The status of each country of the EU is not much different to the status of say California in the U.S. , which political system is that of a republic, which its own economy, checks and balances, laws and military force.

Those who speak of "United States of Europe" have very little understanding of European history. US were made from scratch, on a blank sheet of papers. Europe on the opposite, has some of the oldest nations and languages in the world. Those nations have been made through milleniums.

Some Eurocrats think you just can create a nation out of thin air by saying "let's have them follow Brussels laws and use the same currency", well, they are learning the hard way that this doesn't work, or to make it work they will have to invade Greece and occupy that country to force them to become more German, that's called "colonization".

I'd also add that "European countries" have very different geopolitical interests. Ex-USSR countries are very much pro-NATO and pro-US because of their history. France isn't. Latin countries and Scandinavian countries are very different vision of how government should administer. Economically it's even more crazy, the 27 economies of the EU are completely different and need different currencies.

Well donnarq1, the college professer in you made for an interesting topic. Not sure what your goal was though

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EddieByword
I think they were just kidding around...........Was that Vermont wanted Texas out?
I did have a dream in 1998 that one of the States would declare independance..this year 2013.

Its no dream.
Texas is independent at this time...the rest of the states keep following us around like little brothers that can't go find something to do. Its really quite annoying because it makes us look like we're still somehow hanging out with them...but we're not dammit. We're a whole other country...

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Munichhilton
Its no dream.
Texas is independent at this time...the rest of the states keep following us around like little brothers that can't go find something to do. Its really quite annoying because it makes us look like we're still somehow hanging out with them...but we're not dammit. We're a whole other country...

[www.youtube.com]

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Munichhilton

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EddieByword
I think they were just kidding around...........Was that Vermont wanted Texas out?
I did have a dream in 1998 that one of the States would declare independance..this year 2013.

Its no dream.
Texas is independent at this time...the rest of the states keep following us around like little brothers that can't go find something to do. Its really quite annoying because it makes us look like we're still somehow hanging out with them...but we're not dammit. We're a whole other country...

lol, I said this earlier in the thread........That's not what I heard from a couple of Texans I knew, they said Texas was the real country and all the others were just cowardly umbrella states...........you weren't one of them in Wales UK about 30 years ago....sitting on a beach drinking cider..........?

That's it......you and Stonestod

It is all a question of sovereignty. The nation states of the EU are sovereign and have only agreed to give the EU sovereignty in certain areas of competancies. The member states can take these back by a bill in parliament by revoking the treaty of Rome.Something the UK may well do in the not too distant future?

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beepee2

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Mathijs
There’s less differences than you would expect though. The status of each country of the EU is not much different to the status of say California in the U.S. , which political system is that of a republic, which its own economy, checks and balances, laws and military force.

Those who speak of "United States of Europe" have very little understanding of European history. US were made from scratch, on a blank sheet of papers. Europe on the opposite, has some of the oldest nations and languages in the world. Those nations have been made through milleniums.

Some Eurocrats think you just can create a nation out of thin air by saying "let's have them follow Brussels laws and use the same currency", well, they are learning the hard way that this doesn't work, or to make it work they will have to invade Greece and occupy that country to force them to become more German, that's called "colonization".

I'd also add that "European countries" have very different geopolitical interests. Ex-USSR countries are very much pro-NATO and pro-US because of their history. France isn't. Latin countries and Scandinavian countries are very different vision of how government should administer. Economically it's even more crazy, the 27 economies of the EU are completely different and need different currencies.

I am from Europe, so I know a bit about the history.

I think indeed differences are large between EU countries now, but I bet it will only be a matter of time -10, 20, 30, maybe 50 years and the United States of Europe will be a fact. We then will have, as does the US, states with constititiens that must comply with the federal constitution. Some EU countries might have dropped from the EU, others will have joined.

I think 100 years from now Europe as we now it from before 1992 and 2001 will be just as ancient history as Prussia or the Ottoman Empire.

Mathijs

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71Tele

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Munichhilton

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EddieByword
I think they were just kidding around...........Was that Vermont wanted Texas out?
I did have a dream in 1998 that one of the States would declare independance..this year 2013.

Its no dream.
Texas is independent at this time...the rest of the states keep following us around like little brothers that can't go find something to do. Its really quite annoying because it makes us look like we're still somehow hanging out with them...but we're not dammit. We're a whole other country...

Great. Leave already. Texas is like a nagging wife who keeps threatening to go. The rest of us won't have to keep dealing with your mentally challenged governors trying to be President.

This is the typical subordinate jealousy we've had to deal with...its why we left already....stop being so clingy