Hi Everybody, I don't post oftern, but i love the Stones and check this site everyday!

I read about this surprise Dylan release that Sony just made available todayand immediately thought about the Stones...

It's a 4cd set from Dylan from the years 1962 and 1963 specifically and it looks like there's some outtakes that nobody knew about on this. I think it's pretty crazy that Sony limited it to 100 copies and digital only in France and Germany for 100 euros through his official site. This must be a release for legal purposes only to extend the copyright?

Maybe we might see some releases like this by the Stones in the next couple years???

Here's the link from the awesome dylan site expectingrain.com:

[www.expectingrain.com]

Sony Music has released an extremely limited European only 4cd set of outtakes from 1962 & 1963. The album is sold only through selected stores in England, Germany, France & Sweden. The set is limited to probably no more than a hundred copies. The release is triggered by European copyright laws which would pass these recordings onto public domain unless Sony claims ownership by releasing it it one way or another. Scans of Cover and Tracklist. from åke Jonsson. Available digitally as well but only via BobDylan.com in France and Germany.



Thanks,
Rick

why would the stones release a 4cd set of dylan songs from 62-63?

Quote
StonesTod
why would the stones release a 4cd set of dylan songs from 62-63?

Why not?

Quote
GumbootCloggeroo

Quote
StonesTod
why would the stones release a 4cd set of dylan songs from 62-63?

Why not?

i suppose it could help add to their retirement coffers, but still...there's something very cynical about the whole idea....

you try ask a serious question Rick, eh? I'd imagine lots of this type of stuff may come out soon under the 50 year copyright law, although aren't they trying to change the laws to prevent it? I'd be surprised if a lot of smaller labels dont jump on it like the radio shows that came out in the last year or 2 for the same reason
john

Question is why releasing this as mp3 download? Who wants to pay 100€ for mp3?

Quote
StonesTod

Quote
GumbootCloggeroo

Quote
StonesTod
why would the stones release a 4cd set of dylan songs from 62-63?

Why not?

i suppose it could help add to their retirement coffers, but still...there's something very cynical about the whole idea....

dont you think we should check with the Bard ?

reading the forum comments over at expectingrain
[expectingrain.com]
it looks like its a way to protect the copyright for another period of time, so maybe not that interested in who actually buys it?
john

I don't think the Stones have that many songs in the vaults. They weren't exactly prolific songwriters in the early days.

The reason why : [www.digitalmusicnews.com]
Interesting reading with Stones related content.

Quote
kowalski
The reason why : [www.digitalmusicnews.com]
Interesting reading with Stones related content.

Thanks, good concise article. I better write me some songs...sounds like there may be some money in that!

Some duplication from the Witmark Demos (Bootleg Vol 9).

Thanks for the link to the article and replies kowalski and JohnH!

Ok, so if I'm reading the article and understanding this right, it was basically a precautionary move on Sony's part to make sure that for the next 50-70 years these outtakes will not become public domain. Sony felt that had to officially release these outtakes that weren't officially/legally released in order for the recordings to fall under the copyright protection laws which offer 50, soon to be 70 years of protection.

I hope that's right and we see some unexpected releases pop up in upcoming years!

Quote
RKH1981
Thanks for the link to the article and replies kowalski and JohnH!

Ok, so if I'm reading the article and understanding this right, it was basically a precautionary move on Sony's part to make sure that for the next 50-70 years these outtakes will not become public domain. Sony felt that had to officially release these outtakes that weren't officially/legally released in order for the recordings to fall under the copyright protection laws which offer 50, soon to be 70 years of protection.

I hope that's right and we see some unexpected releases pop up in upcoming years!

It looks like it's the main reason for this release. And I hope too to see other releases of the same kind in the next years... Possibly some never heard before early Stones recording in 2013?

We wouldn't really be discussing such a release for The Stones until 2021, since ABKCO owns the rights to their back catalog up to 1970.

Quote
stonesnow
We wouldn't really be discussing such a release for The Stones until 2021, since ABKCO owns the rights to their back catalog up to 1970.

Apparently the problem (at least for music companies) is the 50 years copyright limit in Europe. Which means after 50 years of its publishing a recording falls into public domain. That's why the first Bob Dylan album is now public domain in Europe. (Just check the recent reissues of his first album under various covers)
Also if a recording is not published after 50 years of its recording it will become public domain. So by publishing these demos tracks Sony Music claims rights on it for the next 50 years. At least that's how I understand it...

So maybe there's a chance that unpublished Stones first recordings owned by ABKCO fall in public domain pretty soon. Or maybe they already did something to prevent this to happen.

Apparently in the next couple of years, the law on public domain recordings will change from 50 years to 70 years.

Quote
kowalski

Quote
stonesnow
We wouldn't really be discussing such a release for The Stones until 2021, since ABKCO owns the rights to their back catalog up to 1970.

Apparently the problem (at least for music companies) is the 50 years copyright limit in Europe. Which means after 50 years of its publishing a recording falls into public domain. That's why the first Bob Dylan album is now public domain in Europe. (Just check the recent reissues of his first album under various covers)
Also if a recording is not published after 50 years of its recording it will become public domain. So by publishing these demos tracks Sony Music claims rights on it for the next 50 years. At least that's how I understand it...

So maybe there's a chance that unpublished Stones first recordings owned by ABKCO fall in public domain pretty soon. Or maybe they already did something to prevent this to happen.

Yes, you describe the legal situation pretty accurately. The thing is that the 50 years protection period begins with the FIRST PUBLICATION if a recording is released, and with the DATE OF FIXATION (RECORDING) if it's unreleased. So 50 years old unreleased outtakes could gain another 50 years of protection when they are released to the public as long as they are still protected and not in the public domain already. Sony obviously plays safe here and "releases" this stuff with a minimum of effort (and even mp3 quality) to just 100 people - but that seems to be sufficient as the copyright laws do not specify that "released to the public" should at least be 1.000 or 10.000 or 100.000, consequently, just 100 should be enough to qualify as "public".

And, yes of course, we may see some similar efforts by other artists/labels in the years to come. The Stones already released their IBC Demos....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-29 03:12 by alimente.

Quote
StonesTod
why would the stones release a 4cd set of dylan songs from 62-63?

I would love to hear their version of "The Times They Are A'Changing".

Quote
alimente

Quote
kowalski

Quote
stonesnow
We wouldn't really be discussing such a release for The Stones until 2021, since ABKCO owns the rights to their back catalog up to 1970.

Apparently the problem (at least for music companies) is the 50 years copyright limit in Europe. Which means after 50 years of its publishing a recording falls into public domain. That's why the first Bob Dylan album is now public domain in Europe. (Just check the recent reissues of his first album under various covers)
Also if a recording is not published after 50 years of its recording it will become public domain. So by publishing these demos tracks Sony Music claims rights on it for the next 50 years. At least that's how I understand it...

So maybe there's a chance that unpublished Stones first recordings owned by ABKCO fall in public domain pretty soon. Or maybe they already did something to prevent this to happen.

Yes, you describe the legal situation pretty accurately. The thing is that the 50 years protection period begins with the FIRST PUBLICATION if a recording is released, and with the DATE OF FIXATION (RECORDING) if it's unreleased. So 50 years old unreleased outtakes could gain another 50 years of protection when they are released to the public as long as they are still protected and not in the public domain already. Sony obviously plays safe here and "releases" this stuff with a minimum of effort (and even mp3 quality) to just 100 people - but that seems to be sufficient as the copyright laws do not specify that "released to the public" should at least be 1.000 or 10.000 or 100.000, consequently, just 100 should be enough to qualify as "public".

And, yes of course, we may see some similar efforts by other artists/labels in the years to come. The Stones already released their IBC Demos....

Which means The Beatles were pretty smart to release their Anthology series the way they did--even if someone else owns, or did own, the publishing rights. Also, what about occasional "reissues" as a result of remastering? Does an official reissue of an album of songs in this case set the copyright half-life back to zero? For instance, the copyright date on the back of all the Stones ABKCO remastered CDs is 2002, so under current Euro copyright laws, wouldn't that keep them from the public domain until 2052?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-29 06:12 by stonesnow.

They are not Cd's they are CDR's ......pretty hefty price tag for four blanks.

It's because copyright lawyers are expensive...

Quote
frogman9
They are not Cd's they are CDR's ......pretty hefty price tag for four blanks.

And already selling for hundreds of $ on ebay uk : [www.ebay.co.uk]

Also on ebay Germany : [www.ebay.de]

And for even more euros (500€) on Discog : [www.discogs.com]


Really cheap packaging :





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-29 13:31 by kowalski.

I picked this up and it is great! Not CDRs. In nice jewel case with art and four CD's of music. Great deal!

let's name all of the songs that the Stones emulated from Dylan.


Have You seen your Mother baby standing in the shadows ---- Like a Rolling Stone


Jigsaw Puzzle - -- Mr. Tambourine Man


etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-29 16:23 by mitchmitchell.

Quote
stonesnow

Quote
alimente

Quote
kowalski

Quote
stonesnow
We wouldn't really be discussing such a release for The Stones until 2021, since ABKCO owns the rights to their back catalog up to 1970.

Apparently the problem (at least for music companies) is the 50 years copyright limit in Europe. Which means after 50 years of its publishing a recording falls into public domain. That's why the first Bob Dylan album is now public domain in Europe. (Just check the recent reissues of his first album under various covers)
Also if a recording is not published after 50 years of its recording it will become public domain. So by publishing these demos tracks Sony Music claims rights on it for the next 50 years. At least that's how I understand it...

So maybe there's a chance that unpublished Stones first recordings owned by ABKCO fall in public domain pretty soon. Or maybe they already did something to prevent this to happen.

Yes, you describe the legal situation pretty accurately. The thing is that the 50 years protection period begins with the FIRST PUBLICATION if a recording is released, and with the DATE OF FIXATION (RECORDING) if it's unreleased. So 50 years old unreleased outtakes could gain another 50 years of protection when they are released to the public as long as they are still protected and not in the public domain already. Sony obviously plays safe here and "releases" this stuff with a minimum of effort (and even mp3 quality) to just 100 people - but that seems to be sufficient as the copyright laws do not specify that "released to the public" should at least be 1.000 or 10.000 or 100.000, consequently, just 100 should be enough to qualify as "public".

And, yes of course, we may see some similar efforts by other artists/labels in the years to come. The Stones already released their IBC Demos....

Which means The Beatles were pretty smart to release their Anthology series the way they did--even if someone else owns, or did own, the publishing rights. Also, what about occasional "reissues" as a result of remastering? Does an official reissue of an album of songs in this case set the copyright half-life back to zero? For instance, the copyright date on the back of all the Stones ABKCO remastered CDs is 2002, so under current Euro copyright laws, wouldn't that keep them from the public domain until 2052?

Not under European laws. Protection is granted starting with the date a) of first fixation (recording date) and b) first publication.

The original "Satisfaction" - recorded AND released in 1965 has a 50 years (and possibly 70 years in future) protection period, starting with 1965. No way a "remaster" done in 2002 could change that. A different take of "Satisfaction" however, recorded in 1965 and released in, let's say 2014, will get another 50 years from 2014 on (and possibly 70 years if the laws will change as planned).

Will never happen.
or maybe when everyone in the band is dead for over 10 years.

otherwise.... Jagger will prevent it.

jeroen

Quote
corriecas
Will never happen.
or maybe when everyone in the band is dead for over 10 years.

is there fear that if they're dead less than that that they will come back or something?

Hey whitem8 I would hold on to your copy then.........as it seems the only one in a jewel case with real CD's .

Now who'll rip these and put them o TPB?
At 777$ a set it's morally acceptable to request a rip, right?